The Instigator
Logical-Master
Pro (for)
Winning
20 Points
The Contender
ToastOfDestiny
Con (against)
Losing
18 Points

LM Classic: Logical-Master vs ToastofDestiny

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/11/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,832 times Debate No: 9194
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (55)
Votes (6)

 

Logical-Master

Pro

Greetings to my opponent and many thanks to the one who is hosting the tournament as well as those who are taking the time to judge. With formalities out of the way, let us proceed.

Since I think character introductions are a big waste of space, I'm just going to link you to my livejournal page where you'll find a detailed character introduction for my team: http://dr-logic.livejournal.com...

I'll post my actual arguments here.

ARGUMENTS:

----Zero time: The instant the fight begins------

The very second the battle starts, Sora uses the teleportation properties of his warp snipe to home in on Jean Grey's location and kill her in one blow. As noted already, we've seen Sora strong enough to slice a magically constructed/enforced skyscraper in half like butter. Using such power on someone with normal human physical resistance would guarantee death. Not to mention that Jean Grey is most certainly not fast enough to counter someone who has shown himself capable of moving at FTL (faster than light) speeds. He then proceeds to slay the much slower North star (who can at best move at mach speed) with the same technique before he is even aware of what is going on. Since Sora is under my control, he won't mind using deadly force rather than pulling his swings/punches when attacking.

----A few seconds have passed-----
Batman uses the mother box in his possession ( http://dc.wikia.com... ) to boom tube (teleport) Revan, Spider-Man, Amazo and himself to top of the empire state building. Amazo takes a look at Revan and gains his powers while even managing to duplicate a light saber of his own. As we can see at 0:21 of the video on the right, Amazo can even duplicate weapons (hawk girls mystical mace and Wonder Woman's hand braces) in addition to powers.

Amazo then uses his newly acquired force abilities to feel out the presence of my opponent's entire team. Using the "force sight" ability, amazo's vision is augmented considerably and he even manages to see each contestant from his current location (though even if he couldn‘t, Batman‘s spare state of the art binoculars would help out). Upon doing this, he acquires the powers of Doomsday, Haru Glory and Brit (and Sora too since he would be able to monitor everyone). Amazo takes a quick look at Spider-man so that he may possess his powers, only to then epically swing down to the streets below prepared to deliver the greatest beat down one could possibly imagine.

Revan, deciding to play it safe, decides to use his force powers to rip every bit of information out of the minds of Doomsday, Haru Glory and Brit (as he had ripped the very language out of the Rakutans minds during his first quest to locate the star Forge: see second video at 7:54) and place it in Amazo‘s mind. In addition, Revan decides to continually do this, so that Amazo will even be aware of their very thoughts and emotions at the same time they are aware of them.

---The battle's conclusion-----

As Amazo prepares to vanquish the three, Spider-Man swings in (since he hasn't done anything else during the battle) and webs up Brit while making a crack about his normal human level strength. He proceeds to head to the nearest NYPD jail and lock him up. Brit has no means of breaking out, hence is considered unusable.

Amazo dual wields a light saber and key blade and quickly out powers Haru due to not only possessing every ounce of Haru Glory's power, but the combined powers of Doomsday, Sora, Revan. Not to mention that Amazo would be an FTL'er at this point and would know every thought uttered thanks to Revan's force mastery (though he could technically simply do this on his own, allowing Revan to do it gives him less to focus on). Doomsday could try to interefere, but Amazo would be more than prepared given that he'd know Doomsday's thoughts and has a high level of precognition due to force mastery and spider-sense. Not to mention that Sora could simply step in.

Although I'm quite confident that Sora could take Doomsday on his own, this wouldn't be necessary seeing as how Amazo (having Doomsday strength and more) would be able to kill him. Still, on the off chance this didn't work (which we have no reason to believe it wouldn't), Amazo could keep Doomsday busy while Spider-man or Sora went to fetch Batman so that he could simply boom tube Doomsday out of NYC and into the Sun (or any place else that isn‘t NYC). Nevertheless, out of bounds and hence disqualified from the match.

Victory to team PRO

And that'll do it for now.
ToastOfDestiny

Con

I would like to begin by congratulating LM on orchestrating this tournament, as well as putting together a state-of-the-art team and strategy. Thank you judges (please vote for me =)) for taking the extra time to read through this debate.

I'll begin with an introduction of my team, and then a critique of LM's strategy, in which I shall turn it into my victory.

Team Toast:
1) Brit (Image Comics)
http://en.wikipedia.org...(comics) (you'll have to choose Brit (comics) )
Brit possesses complete physical invulnerability - he cannot be injured by physical attack. His strength is comparable to that of a physically fit human male.

2) Jean Grey (X-Men) without the Phoenix Force
http://en.wikipedia.org......
Jean Grey is regarded as one of the most powerful telepaths in the Marvel Universe. Her telekinetic powers allow her to read and control minds and bodies, rob people of their sense, and manipulate several tons of matter. She can create strong psionic shields and manipulate objects in complex patterns.

3) Doomsday (DC Comics) during Round 2: Hunter/Prey arc
http://en.wikipedia.org...... (click on Doomsday (comics) )
Doomsday has superhuman physical abilities matching, though possibly greater than, Superman's. He has the ability to quickly develop resistance to anything that damages him. He cannot be defeated twice in the same way.

4) Haru Glory (Rave Master) - Streetlevel
http://en.wikipedia.org......
Haru Glory is the protagonist of Rave Master, possessing the Ten Commandments Sword, a sword with ten forms, each granting a different power. Its first form, Eisenmeteor, was destroyed. The remaining forms are:
1) Explosion - cannot cut things, but creates an explosion when it contacts the enemy.
2) Silfarion - has average cutting power, but allows Haru to move at superhuman speed.
3) Runesave - can cut things without physical form, like magical attacks, fire, smoke, and water.
4) Blue Crimson - two blades with the properties of fire and ice, which can be used for ranged attacks.
5) Melforce - fires blasts of air to blow away or paralyze enemies.
6) Gravity Core - an extremely powerful, but heavy sword. Explosion sword on steroids.
7) Million Suns - an extremely bright blade which can blind enemies and banish darkness.
8) Sacrifar - the most destructive blade, exchanges the user's emotions for the power of carnage.
9) Ravelt - the most powerful form, with the ability to banish evil. This is the base form of the sword.
In addition, Haru possesses the power of Rave, giving him superhuman physical abilities, and a keen mind.

5) Northstar (X-Men)
http://en.wikipedia.org......
Northstar possesses superhuman speed, durability, basic control over light, and the ability to explosively release heat. He can run at at least at Mach 10 without complications. He has also shown the ability to release flashes of light brighter than lighthouse beacons and explosive waves of heat. Northstar's speed allows him to punch hard enough to damage even the Hulk.

On to the battle!

===
FTL Travel
===
While Sora may be able to achieve FTL speeds in Kingdom Hearts, the laws of physics in NYC prevent FTL travel. He may approach relativistic speeds, but the speed of light and beyond are out of his reach.

===
Warp Snipe
===
In the comments section of this debate, LM says "I don't think [Sora] can discern their location", meaning he'd require outside aid to find my team. Jean Grey will survive, as well Northstar, for a little while longer.

===
Force Sight
===
Unless Force Sight grants the wielder the ability to see through objects, it is unlikely that, even from the Empire State building, my team would be visible. NYC is full of skyscrapers.

===
Amazo duplicating the Force
===

Jean searches out the opposing team (assuming Revan is feeling out for mine). The moment she finds them, Jean telekinetically squeezes Revan, applying several tons of force, causing him to pop like a ripe tomato. At this point my team has a few choices.

Alternatively, Jean can dash for a building and lock/barricade herself in while searching for Pro's team and squeezing them like grapes.

1) Allow Jean to pop Sora, Batman, Amazo, and Spiderman in that order.
2) Mind control any of the above, likely Amazo, and ensure a debacle.
3) Disarm Sora telekinetically and have Haru (using Silfarion for speed) and Northstar destroy Team Pro at hypersonic speed.
4) Mind control Batman, making him teleport Team Pro out of NYC.
5) Mind control Sora and triple speedblitz Team Pro.

Furthermore:
-Brit can serve as a beautiful distraction once Amazo is down.
-In a battle, Haru can slice through and seal the Force in Revan, as well as his lightsaber.
-Doomsday can take on any of my opponent's characters, except perhaps Amazo, alone.

Team Pro is toast, and Team Toast has victory!
Debate Round No. 1
Logical-Master

Pro

=============
RE: FTL Travel |
=============

In attempt to account the sheer speed potential of Sora, CON points out that the laws of physics in NYC prevent FTL speeds. However, this a heavily flawed argument that damages my opponent's case considerably.

We're talking about fictional characters who bypass what we deem to be real world "laws" all the time. Last I recall, Doomsday (or beings like him) don't exist, nor does anyone with the abilities of Haru Glory, Northstar, Jean Grey or Brit. What my opponent is doing is cherry picking. If we are to follow his line of reason fully, then we are either left with concluding that since none of these characters exist in real life, they are all to be dismissed . . . or everyone is to be stripped of their super powers (and removed completely if they are not human). If this were to occur, I'd have the advantage seeing as how Batman has no super powers, but has a genius intellect as well as knowledge of mostly every martial art to rely on.

============
RE: Warp Snipe |
============

True, I did make this concession in the comment section. Fortunately, this merely requires a slight change in my plan: Namely, Revan's ability to feel the presence of others and even plan information into someone else's mind. I will reveal the full edit to my initial strategy after I deal with my opponent's arguments.

===========
RE: Force Sight |
===========

http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...

As a matter of fact, force sight does enable one to see through objects.

=====================
RE: Amazo duplicating the Force|
=====================

My opponent insist that Jean would search out the opposing team and telekinetically squeeze Revan, applying several tons of force and causing him to pop like a ripe tomato. However, I'd like to stop my opponent right there.

1) Whereas both may be pretty powerful telepaths, Revan vastly has an edge over Jean Grey as he could find Jean's location (and rest of my opponent's team) instantly, given the effectiveness of force sight, as well as the effectiveness of force sensing in general. Indeed, during the Revenge of the Sith, Darth Sidious was able to detect Vader's plight at Mustafar on the other side of the galaxy (interestingly enough, before it even happened) after being victorious in his duel with Yoda. Whereas Jean may arguably need the help of Cerebro to pull off wide scale psychic detection in the mere confines of a city, this would be child's play to a force wielder, especially someone regarded as one of the greatest force wielders of all time.

2) Revan is simply faster mentally/physically in general. We've seen Jedi comprehending and deflecting lazers from blasters on regular basis and have even seen them deflect lightning from close range. There isn't anything to indicate that Jean Grey possesses thought speed anywhere near this level. Hck, Revan could even move and think faster than what I've already indicated through using force speed: http://starwars.wikia.com...

In short, there's no way Jean Grey will be able to outdo Revan (maybe with the phoenix force, but without it, nope). Revan could either kill her himself with force choke (once more, Vader having killed one of his own officers during empire strikes back while not even being their location proves this can be done without being in person) . . . or could just implant the information of her location in Sora's mind and allow him to blitz her. All of this would take place before Jean Grey could even hope to do anything about it.

3) We've seen the Apprentice from the force unleashed video guide produce enough force energy to guide a star destroyer to the ground(watch the video to the right ). Merely a few tons of pressure divined through psychic energy would be NOTHING to how much Revan's own force energy could shrug off, seeing as how a far weaker force wielder was capable of moving something hundreds or perhaps thousands of tons in weight.

4) Hiding in a building won't do anything for Jean. All Revan has to do is detect her with the force. In addition, Jean wouldn't even get the opportunity to do this seeing as how fast my strategy would ensue.

IMPORTANT NOTE CONCERNING THE REST OF CON's case: Seeing as how the next 5 subpoints rely on Jean Grey being alive after somehow using her inferior powers to vanquish the legendary Jedi Master, I won't bother addressing them. I may possibly do so in the next round just for the heck of it or if I feel the need to . . . but for now, I do not see the need to contest these points linked with Jean actually surviving.

One thing should be made clear though: My opponent is essentially gambling his entire strategy on Jean Grey's survival. If you don't buy her surviving, his case is completely defeated.

=================
REVISED PRO STRATEGY|
=================

1) Revan feels out the presence of CON's entire team at an incomprehensible speed.
2) Revan then immediately uses force choke and/or plants the idea of Jean Grey's location in Sora's head. Even if Revan were not faster than Jean Grey mentally/physically, CON's method of Jean besting Revan would be utterly useless.
3) Sora blitzes Jean Grey (if Revan didn't kill her), Northstar and maybe Haru Glory.
4) At the same time as this is happening Amazo duplicates the powers of Revan and Spider-man.
5) Sora returns to Revan, Batman, Amazo and Spider-Man. Amazo Duplicates Sora's powers.
6)Amazo uses a combination of force sight and force sense to duplicate the powers of COn's entire team.
6) Batman uses his motherbox to boomtube the group to Doomsday, Brik and maybe Haru Glroy.
7) Amazo takes down Haru Glory and Doomsday as has already been explained. Batman may possibly need to boomtube Doomsday out of NYC. Either, he is toast.
8) Spider-man webs up Brik while making fun of his lame powers and ties him to a lamp post after taking a picture of his success so that he could get paid by the Daily Bugle.

Team CON wins.

I now stand ready for CON's 2nd round.
ToastOfDestiny

Con

Foreword: "Amazo duplicating the Force" should be retitled 'Battle Strategy'. It was a point I was going to bring up, but forgot to change.

===
FTL Travel
===
Agreed, we are debating with characters who can do the extraordinary. However, they are doing battle in NYC - we must consider the environment. If this battle took place on Jupiter, Jean Grey, Haru, and Northstar would be killed immediately, and Brit would be completely immobilized. Doomsday would eventually adapt. The environment is a pertinent issue.

If an FTLer came into our NYC, he or she would not be able to travel FTL. They could approach the speed of light, but never reach it.

My line of reasoning doesn't invalidate my character's or Pro's. Sora could easily FTL in his universe. If Northstar were there, he may be able to, before dying from injury sustained by FTL travel.

===
Warp Snipe and Force Sight
===
Dropped. Pro's evidence suffices to affirm those points.

===
Battle Strategy
===
While I may rely on Jean being alive, Pro is equally reliant on her being dead. The winner of the battle between Jean and Revan determines who wins this Team War.

I will now address Pro's numbered points.

1) Force Sight isn't an instant viewing tool. Also, all the instances of force sense being used to detect other beings seem to be either great tragedies, as when the Death Star eliminated an entire planet, or close ones in great danger, as when Luke Skywalker detects the peril of his friends.

While Jean may need Cerebro in a populated NYC, it is unlikey she would in an un-populated NYC. There is no need for her to screen minds that she finds - the moment she picks up a signal, she knows that it's Team Pro. Furthermore, having all five fighters in one area, it would be relatively easy for her to pick up on their locations and crush them.

2) Jedi rely on more than just physical ability to deflect blasters - they use a form of precognition to predict where lasers will strike and move in advance. Force speed seems to affect physical speed, not mental abilities. Also, it just allows them to sprint for long times, or have sudden accelerated movements. The source states that force speed is quite tiriing.

3) While the apprentice may be able to pull a starship to the ground, he is unable to stop it at the end of the video, and has to flee. Also, whenever there is a distraction (smaller ships attacking) he has to cease. I would say several tons of crushing force is a distraction.

4) Building point dropped.

My opponent's entire case is based on Revan beating Jean. Remember, Jean is an Omega-level mutant (http://en.wikipedia.org...), and widely claimed to be the most powerful psychic in Marvel.

My previous strategies still stand:
1) Allow Jean to pop Sora, Batman, Amazo, and Spiderman in that order.
2) Mind control any of the above, likely Amazo, and ensure a debacle.
3) Disarm Sora telekinetically and have Haru (using Silfarion for speed) and Northstar destroy Team Pro at hypersonic speed.
4) Mind control Batman, making him teleport Team Pro out of NYC.
5) Mind control Sora and triple speedblitz Team Pro.

In addition:
6) Jean serves as a kamikaze, mind controlling Amazo before dying.
7) Brit wraps Jean in an embrace, giving her physical protection from Sora, allowing my team to survive (Brit makes an invulnerable shield).
8) Haru uses his sword form Million Suns and Northstar emits flashes of light to prevent Sora from seeing their exact locations.
9) Haru uses Melforce to generate a vortex of air around Jean, paralyzing those who come in contact with it. He can project this around my entire team to protect them.
10) Haru uses Runesave, even if he dies in the process, to seal off the Keyblade's magical abilities.
11) Haru uses Explosion if Jean dies, assuring Sora's injury if the Keyblade strikes him (if Sora or the blade touch Explosion, Explosion releases an explosion).
Debate Round No. 2
Logical-Master

Pro

===========
RE: FTL Travel |
===========

CON attempts the mask the faultiness of his argument by insisting that he is merely referring to the idea that the environment matters (i.e., if they are on Jupiter, they will die immediately due to lack of oxygen). I agree with him; the environment does matter, but if a character has shown themselves to bypass what is deemed as the laws of physics, this is to be accepted. Just as if characters have shown themselves to bypass the necessity for oxygen, it is to be accepted. Until CON can explain to us why fictional properties somehow follow the laws of what we deem reality, you are to dismiss his point.

============
RE: Warp Snipe |
============

Extend.

===========
RE: Force Sight |
===========

Extend

===========
Battle Strategy |
===========

A) CON insist that I am equally reliant on jean Grey being dead as he is her being alive. As I had mentioned in the previous round, I might consider coming back to arguing against his strategies used to take down the rest of my team. Seeing as how I have the time and space, I think I shall do just that.

Amazo:

-Amazo simply takes a look at Revan and BOOM, he has just as much resistance to telepathy/telekinesis as Revan does. In the highly unlikely event she manages to deal with Revan, she'd still get found and killed. Both Amazo and Revan could easil do the same thing at the same time.

Sora:

-Note 1:26 on the first vid to the right as it is a testament of Hercule's strength (he manages to hold the frigging sky), while not even an adult or fully trained by Phil. Now notice how a serious Sora shrugs off punches from someone this strong and WINS. Case and point: A mere few tons of force is NOTHING to Sora. "Popping" Sora or disabling him telekinentically is out of the question..

- I've got no evidence demonstrating how sufficiently Sora can resist telepathy, though given that it's already been agreed as to where his speed potential stands, Sora could simply move around the city fast enough to avoid Jean Grey's detection (or at least fast enough for her not to be able to lock on to him).

Batman:

- Batman's will power would enable him to stave off a mental assault by Jean Grey.

EVIDENCE:
----------------------------------------------------------------|

Resists a high tech military's mind control machine for 26 hours and with help comes up with a plan to break free

http://img18.imagevenue.com...
http://img142.imagevenue.com...
http://img43.imagevenue.com...
http://img12.imagevenue.com...

He is able to keep Martian Manhunter's brother out of his mind (JLA Classified #45)

http://img339.imageshack.us...
http://img228.imageshack.us...
http://img339.imageshack.us...

Breaks free from the imaginal world that mentally enslaved the JLA and the Spectre saving them in the process (JLA/Spectre: Soul War #2)

http://img15.imagevenue.com...
http://img18.imagevenue.com...
http://img20.imagevenue.com...
http://www.picsaway.com...

Plenty more instances of Batman's amazing will power can be found here: http://agent0x7.tripod.com...

------------------------------------------------------------------|

Batman can resist mind control and other telepaths techniques thanks to sheer will power and has shown himself as having enough will power to counter some of the best the DC universe has to offer. With the aid of Amazo or Revan, he'd know Jean Grey's location, could boom tube to her location and take her down while still managing to resist her powers.

-Incidentally, his will power could be used to stave off a telekinesis assault as well.

EVIDENCE:

---------------------------------|
Batman withstands a massive punch from Superman through sheer will power (who was ordered to kill batman).

http://img121.imagevenue.com...
http://img12.imagevenue.com...
----------------------------------|

Spider-man:

-Spider-Man also has a level of will power enabling him to resist telepathy:

http://img364.imageshack.us...
http://img395.imageshack.us...

Granted, there's nothing to suggest that he is on the level of Batman when it comes to will power, but there'd be no doubt that he'd be able to show at least some resistance while at his best.

-Once more, a mere few tons of force would be insufficient:

http://img337.imageshack.us...
http://img443.imageshack.us...

Ock collapses a building on Spider-Man. He is barely phased.

B) Now lets get to CON's responses to my numbered points.

1) No, Force Sight is an instant viewing tool. Observe 3:52 of the third video; you can do it at the push of a button in the games. What my opponent is referring to is a certain form of force sense. Fortunately, I'm merely relying on visual augmentation as well as the ability see through objects and detect life forms.

2) Doesn't matter how it's done (i.e. the force guiding Jedi).

As for force speed, it certainly effects mental abilities AND physical abilities. Notice how the walls "slow down" upon using force speed at 0:52 in the 4th video. The only way the moving walls would appear to slow down would be if the mind had mentally quickened. You should also be able to notice that time seems to slowdown during the actual battle with Desann in said video (you'll notice that Kyle appears to be moving faster whereas everything else, including Dessann appears to be moving slower).

The fact that force speed isn't used continuously is of no consequence. I just insisted that it be used to conclusively uphold the position that Revan could find and kill Jean faster than she could react.

3) It doesn't matter that he did not stop it (which wasn't his goal btw). What matters is that the force powers of the apprentice (someone far less powerful than Revan) made it possible to produce enough force to manipulate something of such incredible weight

Also, we're talking about an object that maxes out at 36,000 metric tons in weight: http://starwars.wikia.com.... This is not even taking into account the ships propulsion system. A few tons and that don't even compare. Jean Grey may as well give Revan a massage.

The distraction point is irrelevant since Revan would only be focused on Jean Grey (contrary to the Apprentice being focused on the star destroyer AND the tie fighters).

4) Extend.

As for Jean being an Omega level, this isn't a big deal at all. Revan was described as being like looking into the heart of the force on more than one occasion.

C) Additional CON strategies:

I've made points demonstrating that Jean Grey's powers would not prove effective on any member of my team (to rebut 1-5) and shall now just deal with 6-10

6) With Revan's powers, Jean's mindcontrol attempt results in failure.
7) Brit could not cover her entire body merely through embracing her. Sora could still hit any exposed area (such as her head).
8) I ask CON to cite the manga chapters that depicts this being used so I may better respond in the next round.
9) Same as above
10) Sameas above
11) Same as above
ToastOfDestiny

Con

===
Haru's Speed
===
While reading to provide images for my other strategies, I came upon this: http://www.onemanga.com.... It does nicely to show Haru's speed and agility without Silfarion. Despite the fact that he's being shot at by an automatic gun, he doesn't get hit once.

===
Sora
===
In the video, notice how far Sora flies when struck by Hercules. Had Hercules been punching with the same force he used to hold up the sky, Sora would have flown a few hundred yards at the BARE minimum. It seems that Hercules was using a level of strength slightly greater than a real human's.

Also, Sora won very easily in that battle because of the human player controlling him - a player with less skill may well have been beaten. Sora's winning a video game battle has nothing to do with his strength, as it is the individual player, not the character, who determines victory.

As an example, I could be playing Legend of Zelda: The Twilight Princess, and have link die at the hands of one of the basic enemies. That doesn't mean that Link is an incompetent warrior, it means that I am an incompetent player. By the same token, I could defeat the final boss, Ganon, without taking any damage. That doesn't make Link the ultimate swordsman, it just shows my prowess in videogames.

If Sora is dashing around evading Jean, that takes him out of the equation. If he tries to get closer to my team, Jean could switch targets to him, and invade his susceptible mind. A few seconds later, I win, as Sora slices through Team Pro.

===
FTL Travel
===
If you argue that it's his ability to surpass the laws of physics, I drop this point.

Incidentally, if Sora travels faster than light, he'll only be able to see in front of him. No photons could reach his eyes from behind, or his sides, leaving him with many, many blind spots.

Alright, let's get right to strategy.
===
Battle Strategy
===
Pro presents evidence that his characters can survive much crushing force. While I commend the strength of their skeletons, Jean could just as easily dispatch them by crushing internal organs.

Furthermore, I encourage you to read into the evidence on Batman's resilience. Superman's punch results in Batman's sternum and ribs being cracked, with bones breaking his skin and possibly a lung. He isn't immune to injury. Had Superman used more force, Batman would be dead, plain and simple. While his willpower is to be commended, Jean could simply go after his tendons and make it physically impossible for him to move, or any other vital organs making it impossible for him to live. Ditto for Spiderman and Sora. Another alternative would be to use Jean Grey's powers to rob Team Pro of their senses.

Furthermore, Batman's resilience is no more remarkable than any other fictional character's. Here's Haru (I use him for a lot of examples due to easy access to source material) coming back from serious injury:
1) http://www.onemanga.com... , deals the winning blow seconds later : http://www.onemanga.com...
2) http://www.onemanga.com... , moments later : http://www.onemanga.com...
3) Takes this beating: http://www.onemanga.com... , http://www.onemanga.com... , http://www.onemanga.com... , http://www.onemanga.com..., and then http://www.onemanga.com....

Spiderman's foe probably wasn't as adept as Jean Grey in terms of mind control.

1) What I mean by instant viewing is that force sight doesn't suddenly home in on all life forms. In conjunction with other abilities, perhaps. However, this increases the number of tasks Revan has to complete.

2) Not necessarily. If you're traveling in a car at 60mph and pass a car at 55mph, it only appears to be moving at 5mph. This isn't because your mind has quickened, but that things are moving more slowly in relation to you. In the source provided by my opponent (the Star Wars wiki), force speed only applies to running speed. He can't discard this and then toss in another source.

3) Unfortunately, I have no access to comic material to show Jean's mental prowess. However, it is a lot easier to push a ship into the ground that is already moving - the ship's propulsion would help the apprentice. He only has to influence the motion, not create it on his own.

The distraction point is quite relevant. The apprentice has to abandon attacking one tie fighter when another fires at him. A further note - the blaster shots in Star Wars are always visible to the naked eye. They don't travel at light speed by far.

4) Jean's Omega level shows us that she's the cream of the crop when it comes to mutants. Apart from beings who are nearly omnipotent, few can even match her in telepathic abilities.

My further strategies:

6) Then Jean can serve as a kamikaze again, killing someone on Team Pro by popping their brain. In fact, she could probably dispatch a few members before dying.
7) Brit would definitely serve as an annoyance. As a human male, it is likely that he is taller than Jean, allowing him to protect her head. He just needs to cover enough of her body to make sword swings inconvenient as a method of damage.
8) http://www.onemanga.com...
9) After much furious reading, I've only come upon three instances of Melforce being used, none of them long enough to demonstrate my point. The two best: http://www.onemanga.com... , http://www.onemanga.com... and http://www.onemanga.com... (the evil analogue of Haru's sword) , http://www.onemanga.com... .
10) I have a few pages
A) http://www.onemanga.com... (Lucia, who possesses a sword similar to Haru's, seals off Haru's Runesave with his own. Haru's Runesave become unsealed when fighting others, though he can't use it on Lucia.)
B) http://www.onemanga.com... , http://www.onemanga.com... (Haru seals the destructive ability of his friend with Runesave)

Further, further strategies:
11) Haru's Million Suns could prevent Amazo from absorbing anyone's abilities. If he is blinded by its light, he cannot absorb abilities. Similarly, Northstar could take him down by dazzling him with light bursts.
12) In a sword duel, Haru could easily win by blinding someone with Million Suns, dashing in with Silfarion, then dealing the death blow with Gravity Core or Explosion.
13) If Amazo inherits everyone's weaknesses, a super-powered crotch-kick a la Doomsday would send him reeling. Ditto for the rest of Team Pro. Jean just needs to score a telekinetic strike on Revan to break his concentration before killing him.
14) Haru or Northstar could make it to Team Pro quickly, and distract them with flashes of light, heat and wind.
15) Because Runesave cuts what cannot be cut, it ought to be able to cut down skyscrapers, which could distract Team Pro, severely injuring many of them. The skyscrapers are indestructable. Team Pro is not.
16) Haru and Northstar track down Sora, blind him, and restrain him. Jean mind controls him, and I win at FTL speed.
Debate Round No. 3
Logical-Master

Pro

I'll respond to each point and then add clear section at the end explaining why I've won. I trust that my opponent shall present no new arguments or evidence since I'd have no means of responding.

=============
RE: Haru's speed |
=============

My opponent cites Haru glory's speed in where he demonstrates himself to be quick enough to evade automatic gunfire. However, my fair judges, this demonstration of speed is by no means impressive when considering that even Batman and Spider-Man casually move this quickly on a regular basis. And they are both by far the potentially slowest members of my time.

====
Sora |
====

1) @ "Hercules not been punching Sora with full strength on the basis that Sora would have been sent flying a few hundred yards at bare minimum": As interesting as a theory that is, I'm afraid it couldn't be any further from the truth. If you attack someone with physical prowess similar to your own and their guard is up, they are not going to topple over even be sent flying http://www.debate.org... as my opponent phrases it. Sora has fought man adversaries with super strength. Many who are unintelligible monsters and would have absolutely no means of rationalizing the notion that they can hold back. For proof, watch both vids on the right.

2) @ "Sora being player controlled." This battle occurs during the actual story. Sora winning is also part of the story. That, and writers control characters in the same fashion as there are different ways to write characters. Ergo, moot argument.

3) @ "Sora is taken out of the equation since he is just evading Jean." Strawman fallacy. I said that Sora could simply move fast enough to avoid Jean's detection. This does not insure that he evades Jean. CON has acknowledged that Jean cannot track him if he moves fast enough, thus it doesn't matter how close he gets to Jean. It is his speed which is keeping her from processing him in his mind.

========
FTL Travel |
========

I'm arguing just what CON says, thus this should be taken as a concession on his part.

@ "Blind spots": Even if this is true (which it isn't or else Sora wouldn't be able to deflect lasers all around him, meaning he is above what we deem physical laws), it makes no difference as no one on CON's team is fast enough to tag FTL speed anyway.

===========
Battle Strategy |
===========

SECTION A)

@ "Jean just as easily crush my characters insides." Rather than argue this point, I'll simply agree (due to space) to this being so assuming she was able to tag Spider-Man before Revan or Amazo killed her. As for Batman though, I showed evidence that his will power saved him, not his exoskeleton. As for Sora, his speed would keep him safe.

@ "Superman punched Batman's sternum"

Um, Superman was ordered via mind control to KILL Batman (if you check the source I provided, you'll find it to be rather reliable). The extra force my opponent is talking about is exactly the kind of force he would have used to carry out the command. After all, it was an order to KILL. This is not an issue

@

SECTION B)

1) Force sight doesn't home in on all life forms. As insisted, that's force sense. The more powerful one's force energy, the more widespread this can be done. If either of you judges have ever watched DBZ, it's similar to how the Z warriors would "sense" others without a scouter ( it can also augment normal senses). My argument is using this in conjunction with force sight for Amazo to duplicate the powers of CON's entire team. Merely pinpointing Jean's location would be done with force sense.

2) Example is irrelevant since that's 2 objects moving in the same direction at similar speeds. The vid is different.

Second, my initial source cites the game's expansion on the properties of force speed at the very bottom of the page.

" the game around the player slows down while that of the player remains normal, signifying that the ability did not only augment his speed, but it altered the Jedi's perception of time."

3) The ship was attempting to move away

Doesn't explain relevance. Fiction displays lightpspeed movement all the time. Watch Superman, DBZ, Justice League, Star Trek, etc.

4) Force (life within all universe) > mer psychic powers.

C)

6) It's been agreed that Sora is too fast for Jean. Amazo would have Revan's power's too, so that's not happening. At best, she could do this to Spider-Man, but as you shall see with a few alterations, I don't necessarily need Spider-man or even Batman to win this fight. :D
7) Doesn't matter if tries to serve as an annoyance. Brit cannot cover every area of Jean's body.
8) Based on the link CON provided, even if someone is hit by million sun, the effects last for a few seconds at best (note how Musica's eyes are wide open on the next page). Furthermore, it doesn't cove that much territory. Say Haru uses it at the start of the battle. Sora knows their exact location (of course, he already would know with Revan or Amazo's help), speed blitzes Haru .
9) Sora knows magic, thus could attack without coming in direct contact with Jean (firaga, etc). And CON concedes that none of his pages demonstrate his point
10) Notice each instance and notice how the wielders of this technique need to be in direct or semi direct contact in order to pull this off. Also, I'm seeing nothing about being able to seal off ALL magic or else Luca would have made Haru's sword completely useless during their battle. Yet you'll note that Haru pulls off "Million suns' just fine a page later. Evasion is all that is necessary.
11) Haru's million sun's doesn't seem to be capable of eternal use. Amazo, possessing precognition both via Revan's force powers and spider-man's spider sense, knows when to expect the technique, covers his head and then proceeds with the plan.
12) If Haru happenen to fight Sora in a sword duel, Sora (being faster than Haru) could even blitz him or cast stopga (makng time completely stop for Haru temporarily) and kill him with one blow. As for Amazo, that combined with the fact that he has precog to anticipate "Million Suns"
13) With precognition and FTL speed, he'll know when to expect a super powered crotch kick, avoid it and can provide one of his own to whoever this weakness applies to.
14) With the strategy I've already outlined, they'd never get the opportunity.
15) Nope. Rules say skyscrapers are indestructible. Thus, even if Runesaves supposedly have that power, this city would be their limitation.
16) CON has failed to provide you with reason that Haru and Northstar could track down Sora, much less even move faster than the speed of light.

CLOSING STATEMENTS:

1) Most of my opponent's case consisted of whether or not Jean Grey would be successful in the initial phase of the battle. However, the clear weakness in CON's contributions is that he never actually demonstrates how Jean would manage to find and kill Revan (or anyone else on team PRO) faster than Revan or even Amazo would kill Jean. EVEN if you were to somehow dismiss my arguments on speed, the fact of the matter is that I have 2 characters with same power trying to kill Jean. EVEN on the unlikely chance Jean were capable of bypassing Revan's own telepathic via force defenses, Amazo could kill her while she was attempting to subdue Revan or vice versa.

2) Another large problem boils down to team CON's vastly inferior speed in comparison to Sora. CON dropped all of his arguments which suggest otherwise, hence making Sora virtually untouchable by the likes of team CON. He can blitz any one of Team CON's players and subdue Bric himself if it came down to it.

3) The kamikaze tactic is worthless as my key players (in this debate are all) well capable of circumventing it and it's not like Batman's boomtube couldn't be used by someone else
ToastOfDestiny

Con

I apologize for bringing new sources in, but Pro asked me to source some arguments. I was a little over halfway through the manga Rave Master last round, and thus my sources show Haru at less than full power. The sources this round are a definitive description of his powers.

===
Haru's Speed
===
Batman may be able to dodge gunfire in the sense that he can jump out of the way. Haru remains within the gunfire's path, dodging sprays of bullets. Spidey could pull this off, agreed, but Batman's Olympian agility may have some trouble.

===
Warp Snipe
===
After doing some digging, I've uncovered a video of Sora warp-sniping. This ability is used only over short distances. Also note that the lasers are clearly moving at lower than FTL speeds. Sora is standing still at certain points, and lasers still take time to hit him. These 'lasers' are clearly not lasers as we would define them, as they are moving at subliminal speeds. Warp snipe comes in at around 5:20.

===
Sora
===
In the videos of Sora fighting Hercules, Sora barely moves when being punched with no guard up. He's preparing for an attack when he himself is attacked. If he isn't sailing several football fields in distance, he isn't being punched at full strength.

As for Sora's winning being part of the story, all that tells us is that he's a better warrior than Hercules. I didn't want judges to be influenced by the fact that the player in the video almost had a perfect victory.

As for the videos with the Titans, the Ice Titan just fires icicles and other ice based attacks, which wouldn't knock Sora back very far. The Rock Titan's few direct hits send Sora flying back to the ground. He occasionally recovers from these hits by bouncing on the Titan itself.

Sora is taken out of the equation in that I don't have to worry about him. There's no strawman here, Pro misunderstands my argument. If he approaches my team, he's blinded, making him slow down. I can hit him there.

I'm saying that if Sora is concentrating on moving fast enough to avoid Jean, and he can't attack my team, I don't have to worry about him. He's in the battle, but out of the equation.

===
Battle Strategy
===
@ Batman's willpower
Batman's willpower doesn't stop him from getting injured. He still gets injured. In the following pages, Haru literally gets every bone in his body broken, but still gets up. http://www.onemanga.com... , and http://www.onemanga.com... show us that he's still injured.

If Jean crushes Batman's heart or brain, NO amount of willpower would save him. He's just a human with strength, smarts and willpower. Not indestructibility. If any of Pro's characters lost vital organs, they'd be dead, plain and simple.

@ Superman's punch
If Superman used every ounce of his strength, he'd punch straight through Batman. No human body can hold up against that much force.

@ Amazo duplicating through force sight
If Northstar or Haru used their light abilities, Amazo wouldn't be able to see my team.

@ Force speed quickening the mind.
Please read the entire section 'behind the scenes' on the force speed article: http://starwars.wikia.com... . Note that the games are inconsistent when it comes to force speed's abilities. In Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II Force Speed just alters sprint speed. Pro can't cherry-pick the one game that gives him these abilities.

The source says (in one game), "[Force speed}...altered the Jedi's perception of time". It didn't quicken his thinking, but acted similarly to an adrenaline burst, making events seem to slow down. Jean Grey knows she's being hunted, so she'd be experiencing this same kind of brain rush.

"3) The ship was attempting to move away. Doesn't explain relevance. Fiction displays lightpspeed movement all the time. Watch Superman, DBZ, Justice League, Star Trek, etc..."
I don't understand this point. I think Pro tried to address the wrong argument.

@Light-speed movement
When fiction displays light-speed movement, it always shows it to be light-speed. When ships warp in Star Wars, you can see the warping of space. In DBZ, characters have double images from their superluminal travel. When the Flash runs really fast, he leaves a blur. When Sora evades 'lasers' he moves normally, not even sprinting.

@ "4) Force (life within all universe) > mer psychic powers."
These aren't mere psychic powers. She is one of the most powerful psychics in the Marvel universe. Pro attempts to dazzle you with the Force's significance. Don't be fooled by him. Jean Grey is not to be messed with.

===
My Further Strategies
===
6) (crushing organs) If Revan's heart was crushed, he's dead. Ditto for Amazo, who inherits people's weaknesses.
7) It makes it harder for Sora. As long as vital areas are covered, Jean is fine. Besides, Sora isn't even getting close thanks to Million Suns/Northstar.
8) Musica opens his eyes a page later because Haru instructed him to shield his eyes. After blinding the enemy with Suns, Haru switched back to Eisenmeteor so that his friends could see when they ran away. Look closely at the top panel two pages later: http://www.onemanga.com... , and you'll see Haru with his sword sheathed.
9) Haru can cut magic with Runesave. Magic is useless here. After finishing the manga, I can demonstrate what a full-powered Melforce is equal to. http://www.onemanga.com... , Lucia, using a sword weaker than Haru's final sword, demolishes an entire tower. Melforce is the entire spiral in the top panel.
10) If the Keyblade hits Runesave, its powers are sealed. Lucia only sealed Runesave because the Ten Commandments is ten swords bound together, not one sword with ten abilities. If Runesave hit Million Suns, it would be sealed, leaving the other swords untouched.
11) It is capable of eternal use, but the instances Haru uses it require him to switch away. The one I source requires his friends to flee, which they can't do blind.
12) Stopga could be severed by Runesave. Million Suns blinds Sora, leaving him open for attack. Amazo's precog tells him something is going to happen, not necessarily what is going to happen. Even then, he's open for a strike from Silfarion (super-speed).
13) He can't block a telekinetic kick from Jean. The only Team Pro member with this weakness is Haru, whose immense will-power would enable him to get up again. He got up after having all his bones broken. A crotch kick wouldn't keep him down.
14) With the refutations I provide, they would.
15) I'll leave this to the judges to decide. But Runesave can cut things without physical form, and things which cannot be cut.
16) If Sora were blinded by light, his guard would drop, and he'd be dead.

1) On rereading this debate, I have found a point I raised in R1, which LM dropped incorrectly, assuming that it required Jean to be alive. I said, "In a battle, Haru can slice through and seal the Force in Revan, as well as his lightsaber." It's right at the end of the round. If Pro attempts to use the Force on Jean, Haru simply slices through it. Northstar can cover them by blinding Pro. Haru can see in these bright lights, as evidenced by his ability to see through Million Suns. Jean can therefore survive long enough to subdue Amazo and Revan. Spidey and Batman would follow soon. My team then plays cat and mouse with Sora with Million Suns and Northstar's light.

2) It seems Pro wasn't totally honest about Warp Snipe's abilities (such as its range). In light of this, as well as the fact that at 2:20 in the video, Sora stands still as lasers move past him (clearly slower than light), shows us that his speed was greatly exaggerated.

3) Kamikaze tactics would work for Jean. She just has to break someone's heart.

Thank you, LM, for this terrific debate, and thank you, judges for (hopefully), making it through over 50,000 characters of argument. Vote Toast!
Debate Round No. 4
55 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 8 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
Well done. I'd say you're gonna keep the $100.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
3 Con: Why would Hercules reduce his own strength level? Your example about video games is persuasive, though. Very clever point about crushing internal organs.

4 Pro: A very well done case overall. Not much to say here.

RFD: Both Pro and Con had many strong points. But Con was heavily reliant on Jean Grey, and to my mind never adequately proved that she would be able to survive. It would be a piece of cake for Sora to kill her. So my vote goes to PRO. Congratulations to both sides on doing this well.

-MTGandP
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
LM Classic: Logical-Master vs ToastofDestiny RFD. Sent in separate paragraphs because PMs do not work very well.

1 Pro: Please do not link to another site for your character introduction. There is an 8000-character limit for a reason. Other than that, your opening strategies are wonderful.

1 Con: Okay, I'll vote for you. ;) Your case is divided into too many little chunks. All that empty space hurts my eyes. The case could have benefitted from more elaboration. Your points are good, but they fail because Team Pro is just so much faster. Jean Grey only has human reflexes. You should have given reason as to why Jean Grey would be fast enough. Good point about the Sora concession, though.

2 Pro: Your point about FTL travel is a strong rebuttal which I agree with. Very good point about Revan's abilities, especially with the reference to the movie that I've actually seen.

2 Con: Your point about FTL still leaves the problem that you're cherry picking. For example, being completely invulnerable to physical attack is not physically possible any more than FTL is. Your assertion that force sight only works in extreme circumstances isn't great, as it seems to me that if Sidious can sense Vader's future peril from across the galaxy, he can sense the location of a number of people within the same city. Good point about Jean Grey and the low population of NYC, though.

3 Pro: You effectively reinforce the environment contention. Your big chunks of text about warp snipe and force sight are self-explanatory, and just make it more difficult for me to get through your case. It would be easier to read if you didn't spend five lines just to say "extend". The number of videos also makes it difficult to understand, but as far as I know there is no way to fix that. Your Amazo contention could use some context. I like that you provided evidence for Batman's mind control resistance, since I wouldn't have believed it otherwise.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
for L-M vs ToD
Con: Tied
S&G: Tied
Arg: Pro, Sora's speed blitz wasnt effectively countered, and ultimately, that resuls in victory.
Sources: Tied
3-0 Pro

-Pcmbrown
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 8 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
Also, I'm curious. What was your way of beating your strategy that you mentioned?
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 8 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
Barrrrgh. Finally done. I hope my winning argument is accepted.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Make the response to the comment section stuff tomorrow morning as I don't feel like clicking on another link. Later. :D
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Don't know why it cut off my second video too. Here is both for the round:
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Forget beotch. More like Mudder frucking beotch.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
I'm about to go play Batman. I'll counter your comment section stuff when I return (sometime later tonight).
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