The Instigator
Puck
Pro (for)
Winning
11 Points
The Contender
Ragnar_Rahl
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

LM Classic Puck vs. Ragnar Rahl

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/27/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 7,636 times Debate No: 9063
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (17)
Votes (2)

 

Puck

Pro

Street Level

Deadpool
http://img444.imageshack.us...

///Abilities///

Trained Agility, Enhanced Strength, Healing Factor, Trained Marksmanship, Psychic Immunity, Enhanced Stamina, Enhanced Sight Trained Unarmed Combat, Weapons Master, Trained Swordsmanship

///Equipment///

Twin katana, Sniper rifle, Grenades, Automatic rifle, Teleporter, Automatic pistols, Explosives, Communications gear, Holographic Projector: self, Holographic Projector: other

Notes: Deadpool's healing factor works slightly different to Wolverines.

Sage
http://img291.imageshack.us...

///Abilities///

Trained Stealth, Enhance Mutation, Trained Agility, Psionic, Illusions, Trained Marksmanship, Telepath, Trained Unarmed Combat, Weapons Master, Genetic awareness, Eidetic Memory, Enhanced Intellect/ Brain Processing

Notes: Genetic awareness relates to Sage's ability to detect and locate any life form, and near instantly analyse its genetic make-up.

///Equipment///

Sniper rifle, Hand gun, Assault rifle, Sword, VR glasses (Technopathy)

==

Spiral
http://img443.imageshack.us...

///Abilities///

Magic Attack (Blast), Magic, Flight, Genius Level Intellect, Enhanced Agility Enhanced Marksmanship, Stealth (portals), Enhanced Speed, Enhanced Strength, Expert Swordsman, Enhanced Unarmed Combat

Notes: Magic includes invisibility, shape shifting, stun/paralysis, immune to possession

///Equipment///

Triple swords, Cybernetics, Implants

Engineer (Angela)
http://img406.imageshack.us...

///Abilities///

Nanite Blood, Genius Level Intellect, Technopathy, Flight, Duplication, Shape shift,
Electronic Disruption

Notes: Engineer has swapped the total of her blood for atom sized nanites. These nanites are each manipulated per Angela's thoughts enabling her to transform her body, and use mobile nanites. She has the entire contents of the internet available via the nanite blood. Nanite abilities, though not inclusive, consist of energy shields, electrical storms, spreading of organic and electronic viruses. The nanites are also Angela's protection from damage allowing self repair and enhanced durability.

///Equipment///

Herself

Mister Sinister
http://img150.imageshack.us...

///Abilities///

Blast Power, Genius Level Intellect, Healing, Genetic Manipulation, Psionic, Telepath, Levitation, Shape Shift, Enhance own ability, Enhanced Strength, Enhanced Durability, Touch Paralysis, Master Geneticist

Notes: Sinister's shape shifting, healing, durability arrive from his ability to manipulate his own molecular structure. He is also able to shut down anyone's genetic based ability (e.g. the x-gene) upon knowing their genetic make-up. Sinister can absorb other mutant's abilities at touch.

///Equipment///

Himself

====================
Team positions: Opposite ends

Begin!
====================
///Query on Taxxon Hive Mind:
"Taxxons are basically cannibalistic worms, and another Controller race. They may be sentient and have good coordination of their many appendages, but they are constantly hungry and live their whole life with their eating instincts in overdrive; even the Yeerks that take them as hosts can't control them. The whole race is entirely voluntary as hosts for the Yeerks, who promised in exchange that they would be fed well with the flesh of their enemies. With a small exception, of course. There are a few that are resistant, because of the will of a being known as the "Living Hive." It gives birth to the Taxxons, and has an enormous force of mind, extending its body over the entire planet. It seems to be a sentient organic Taxxon factory; the best I can guess is that it's a collective of Taxxon queens.
http://members.tripod.com...;

If it is global sized it violates the leaving NY - as it exists outside of NY, if it is a Hive mind of Queens it may violate as counting as 1 team member - the source doesn't seem to be overly confident, clarification will be needed///

---------
Stage 1
---------

Note: This is not the day of prep time option, merely efficient use of the distance between teams.

Upon finding themselves in NY it's readily apparent to Sage the non-existence of other humans. She can however detect five unique genetic signatures...

Sinister activates mental protection on all team members (par course for Marauders vs. X-Men)

Spiral opens a portal out of sight of the opposing members, allowing Engineer to send a spy nanite. The nanite returns with images of four, the portal is closed.

Using her stored knowledge Engineer, finds the closest computer lab, using nanites to display the images. Deadpool loads the four images (minus Taxxon Hive Mind) to his holographic projector, enabling him to superimpose their form over his.

Sage uses her ability to analyse genetic make-up displaying each of the opposing five bio gene structure for Sinister and Engineer. Sinister now has each opposing team member's gene code in memory.

Engineer's access to the internet and enhanced computing ability allows her to locate Ragnar's team list - who they are opposing is now known... why they are there is now known. Engineer points out the dreamwalker ability - each team member swears allegiance to Richard Rahl, commits devotion, activating the Bond that protects them from Jagang's dreamwalker possession ability. Sinister maintains the image of Richard Rahl in each members mind except Deadpool. Deadpool complains about splitting $150 five ways...

Engineer and Sinister use their advanced knowledge of genetics and viruses to construct a virus capable of destroying the Taxxon Hive Mind (Sinister has working knowledge of the legacy virus). Engineer locates the necessary lab for its creation; Spiral portals them there. Engineer's nanites allow a speeded process for its creation. Using a portal Engineer sends out nanite virus carriers and infects the Taxxon Hive Mind structure - it begins to die.

While at the lab, heavy tranquilizers are made for Engineer's nanites.

---------
Stage 2
---------
Ambush!

Deadpool teleports into position.

Spiral portals Sage into position then portals to Engineer.

Sinister's location; somewhere.

Engineer is waiting with Spiral.

Spiral opens portal a safe distance from the opposing team, Engineer sends out atom sized nanites, once through the portal is closed. The nanites travel to Ramza, using the tranquilizer he is put to sleep and paralysed.

As Ramza falls, Sinister uses his powerful telepathy to manipulate Oba (Oba is susceptible to suggestion and possession - as seen via the Keeper in Pillars of Creation).

Oba is a somewhat of a homicidal maniac - Sinister thinks he should attack Sousuke, so he does, tackling him.

At that instant, Sage sends illusions of soldiers running towards Ragnar's team spreading confusion, distraction.

Deadpool in position with sniper rifle opens up on the engaged Oba and Sousuke.

Sage in position with sniper rifle opens up on engaged Oba and Sousuke.

Engineer in flight and with weapons systems hovers high and targets Jagang, raining bullet destruction before strafing the bodies of Oba and Sousuke, Engineer then speeds away.
http://img145.imageshack.us...

The instant bullets stop, Spiral portals in behind Jagang, sinking a sword into his spine. Spiral backs away into the portal closing it behind her (stealthy portal fighting is a Spiral favourite).
http://img150.imageshack.us...

Spiral portals to Sage, they leave to Sinister via round about portals.

Deadpool teleports away, as he fades he can be heard singing...Oh what I wouldn't give... for a Ribbon in my hair...

Current team location...somewhere in NY.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

A taxxon hive is, in essence, a sentient building. The one I picked (the one from the alternate future in Animorphs number 7) arose in the husk of an average American mall. It might eventually grow to planet-size proportions, but it's rather young at present, and that probably takes a while. The fight won't last long enough to break the rule about exiting the city. It is no collective, it is one living being that happens to also be a fixed structure. Like a tree, but in the animal kingdom :). The fact that it has natural symbiotes somewhere else is of little consequence, it's a big creature, it probably doesn't need fed or anything for the course of a battle.

Incidentally, as a building, a mall, in New York City... hmmm, buildings are usually considered part of the city, are they not? I think my characters will want to stick rather near a building that is part of a completely indestructible city. In fact, they might want to take shelter inside. Since Taxxon Hives are capable of transporting their denizens through themselves rather quickly, and this power can be applied to other species that enter the hive structure (Demonstrated in the Andalite chronicles, from the same canon), and this requires reasonably quick movement of it's parts despite being fairly fixed in place, it can be presumed that the same powers permit it to close off to intrusion. My other team members are within an invulnerable body. Fat lotta good the bullets and viruses and nanites and swords do ya. The hive is part of the city. The city cannot be destroyed in whole or in part.
As demonstrated in Temple of the Winds, when Richard Rahl temporarily travels to the underworld, his power to protect those loyal to him from the Dream Walker is not intact, because he is no longer in the same world as they. Several of his followers become controlled again as a result.

Clearly neither Richard nor any other Lord Rahl is present in the world in which an "Indestructible New York City" is. If he were on your team you might have a shot. As it stands, your characters have no defense against the dream walker, who can slip into the space between moments and between thoughts, controlling anyone he wishes at will. It is difficult, but it is doable and it requires no time at all (Blood of the Fold pg. 232). It all occurs before the things you have said your teammates would be doing. Each and every one of your players is at Emperor Jagang's mercy. The ability can be done at any distance and for whatever reason requires no foreknowledge of one's opponent's location (The books several times involve Jagang taking control of people whose location he cannot possibly know before the control). Even Spiral's supposed "immunity to possession" is, according to this : http://en.allexperts.com...(comics).htm immunity to some types of PSIONIC possession, not dream walker magic-- Rogue's abilities are the result of a genetic mutation, and thus presumably relate to some scientific principle of energy in the Marvel universe rather than being comparable to Dream Walker abilities. What shall we do? Surely you can't claim your characters lack the ability to kill themselves?

Matter of fact, Spiral's the easiest to take over, since she has magic of some sort. In the unlikely event Puck proves her immunity would apply to Jagang's magic, he figures this out quickly and picks a different targetotherwise... Jagang takes her over. Immobilize your team with her moves, element of surprise should be plenty, if you try to stop her you'll have to kill her and then Jagang moves on to someone else. I'll let Puck try tell me what happens when Spiral attempts using her immbolization magic on every member of Puck's team but herself around without a moment of warning and we'll go from there (In other words, how good and fast a caster did you pick? :) Priority targeting order is :engineer, sage, deadpool, Mr.sinister.. This all happens before the rest, since Jagang is quicker than his folks, since he can slip in the space between moments and take someone whenever he damn well pleases, and get out just as fast.
Debate Round No. 1
Puck

Pro

"A taxxon hive is, in essence, a sentient building. The one I picked (the one from the alternate future in Animorphs number 7) arose in the husk of an average American mall. It might eventually grow to planet-size proportions, but it's rather young at present, and that probably takes a while. The fight won't last long enough to break the rule about exiting the city. It is no collective, it is one living being that happens to also be a fixed structure. Like a tree, but in the animal kingdom :). The fact that it has natural symbiotes somewhere else is of little consequence, it's a big creature, it probably doesn't need fed or anything for the course of a battle.

Incidentally, as a building, a mall, in New York City... hmmm, buildings are usually considered part of the city, are they not?"

Several concerns arise from the use of the Taxxon Hive - as a living entity arising from rubble, the term 'building' is ambiguous. I realise in this instance they in essence appear and function as a mall, for I guess the purpose of brain slug implanting. If it arises from rubble, it is still an entity on its own right, and not a NY building - or I could hollow out a tree, pile my team in and call myself as being in a defensive invulnerable position. I could sell cupcakes from it and call it a shop. Deadpool could even dress it up as one.

It violates the canon: as its invulnerable ability do not arise from Animorphs - rather the specific instances of the tournament. It would be akin to taking Jack Hawkmoor as a character - the Spirit of Cities - and being granted insta-invulnerability as a result.

It violates the rules: 2. No team member may have unlimited abilities in one or more particular areas. http://www.debate.org... - linked by LM as the example of a UTB debate.
Unfortunately - invulnerable is an unlimited ability.

"My other team members are within an invulnerable body. Fat lotta good the bullets and viruses and nanites and swords do ya. The hive is part of the city. The city cannot be destroyed in whole or in part."

Even if given the Hive exterior is closed off - the interior is not solid. Spiral, Deadpool both have transportation that allow all team members entry. Opposing characters are still not safe inside. Angela's nanites would eventually find them all. Even if the insides shift constantly, the space inside is limited. Battle would still commence, or Engineer can pick them off one by one with tranquilisers, viruses, electric shock etc.

"As demonstrated in Temple of the Winds, when Richard Rahl temporarily travels to the underworld, his power to protect those loyal to him from the Dream Walker is not intact, because he is no longer in the same world as they. Several of his followers become controlled again as a result [...] Each and every one of your players is at Emperor Jagang's mercy. The ability can be done at any distance and for whatever reason requires no foreknowledge of one's opponent's location (The books several times involve Jagang taking control of people whose location he cannot possibly know before the control). Even Spiral's supposed "immunity to possession" is, according to this : http://en.allexperts.com......(comics).htm immunity to some types of PSIONIC possession, not dream walker magic-- Rogue's abilities are the result of a genetic mutation, and thus presumably relate to some scientific principle of energy in the Marvel universe rather than being comparable to Dream Walker abilities."

Not knowing where my characters are is not akin to knowing that they are. Presumably Jagang does not have omnipotence in regards to all life - i.e. it does him no good if he is not aware that my characters even exist - if he has no instance of thought as to who his possession should target.

In Jagang's world, magic is called the Gift, and Jagang's ability of the dreamwalker was created specifically during the Great War, by wizards of that world to the tune of that world's magic. Much like Marvel physics isn't the same as DC physics, one can't assume that the term 'magic' is a single catch all phrase that denotes the one source. The dreamwalker ability that is useful him in his world, is part of its creation by wizards using the type of magic of that world to the tune of the magic of that world - Spiral's magic is of dimensional origin (explained later), it's source, structure etc., are fundamentally different, thus the same vulnerabilities cannot be assumed. Spiral's immunity can still be considered valid - at least for now.

"Matter of fact, Spiral's the easiest to take over, since she has magic of some sort. In the unlikely event Puck proves her immunity would apply to Jagang's magic, he figures this out quickly and picks a different targetotherwise... Jagang takes her over."

Spiral's possession is explained for now - however the instance Jagang attempts mind control, his presence would become aware to Sinister - ranked as one of highest level telepaths of Marvel (http://www.comicvine.com...) - as it is Jagang himself in some manner who attempts the possession - he is after all attempting to step into others minds i.e. his presence in some manner. Any nearby invading mental presence whether directed at him or other team members would be engaged with. Though magic based, a mental assault is still that - to assume simply because it is magic based therefore somehow immune would be erroneous as the basics of mental control remain. Sinister has bettered mental assaults from Psylocke, Madelyne Pryor, Jean Grey all of whom possess on par the ability of Jagang.

http://img228.imageshack.us...

Furthermore, power engaged with Sinister, can be returned to sender, with additional power. The team is down bar perhaps Oba with his void of magic. At minimum, Jagang's ability is held at bay.

http://img443.imageshack.us...

http://img228.imageshack.us...

"I'll let Puck try tell me what happens when Spiral attempts using her immbolization magic on every member of Puck's team but herself around without a moment of warning and we'll go from there (In other words, how good and fast a caster did you pick?"

Even if all remains, Spiral's dimensional magic requires for the most part the use of complex rituals (dance) to extract the necessary power. Quick fire team paralysis is out.

http://img228.imageshack.us...
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

:or I could hollow out a tree, pile my team in and call myself as being in a defensive invulnerable position. I could sell cupcakes from it and call it a shop. Deadpool could even dress it up as one.
You could, if you could find a tree, and if you have time. That's the nature of the scenario.

:It violates the canon: as its invulnerable ability do not arise from Animorphs - rather the specific instances of the tournament.
That would be like saying Goku and Vegeta (if they were allowed in this tournament), were "violating the canon" by ducking behind a skyscraper, because skyscrapers are not invulnerable in their world. "The canon" is relevant only in describing the personal properties of the characters, not in how the city is able to interact with those properties. A creature reliant on breathing a high-methane atmosphere would die in this tournament, even if the canon he is from contains no instances of him ever being deprived of such an atmosphere.

:It would be akin to taking Jack Hawkmoor as a character - the Spirit of Cities - and being granted insta-invulnerability as a result.
I'm not sure how being a spirit of cities makes you a PART of a city, but presuming it does, such would be valid.

:It violates the rules: 2. No team member may have unlimited abilities in one or more particular areas. http://www.debate.org...... - linked by LM as the example of a UTB debate.
Unfortunately - invulnerable is an unlimited ability.
It's not unlimited. The rules prohibit teleporting it out of New York, but not removing it some other way-- if your characters can. It is therefore a strictly limited invulnerability-- limited by location. The man who was not vulnerable while he touched the earth was not unlimited, for he could be lifted.

I'm sure a creative person has many ways to make him not part of the city.

:Even if given the Hive exterior is closed off - the interior is not solid. Spiral, Deadpool both have transportation that allow all team members entry. Opposing characters are still not safe inside.
They are safe from what was described first round. That was my intent.

:Not knowing where my characters are is not akin to knowing that they are. Presumably Jagang does not have omnipotence in regards to all life - i.e. it does him no good if he is not aware that my characters even exist - if he has no instance of thought as to who his possession should target.
If Jagang were limited by foreknowledge of his opponents, the canon would all but certainly describe scouts looking for such opportunities, and people who escaped such knowledge. It doesn't really seem to though. What makes most sense? Considering the canon, which is that the ease of finding things depends on how powerful they are (Incidentally, he can find not only the "gifted" easily, but also apparently sorcerors and so forth-- and both additive and subtractive help, both being magics from different sources), we can presume due to Occam's razor that he can search for other minds with his, and the degree to which they stand out is amplified by the degree of the power those minds directly control, which would explain why he has an easier time with the gifted (Incidentally, this would mean that in a New York of 10 minds, there would be very little to obscure his consciousness).

:In Jagang's world, magic is called the Gift, and Jagang's ability of the dreamwalker was created specifically during the Great War, by wizards of that world to the tune of that world's magic. Much like Marvel physics isn't the same as DC physics, one can't assume that the term 'magic' is a single catch all phrase that denotes the one source. The dreamwalker ability that is useful him in his world, is part of its creation by wizards using the type of magic of that world to the tune of the magic of that world - Spiral's magic is of dimensional origin (explained later), it's source, structure etc., are fundamentally different, thus the same vulnerabilities cannot be assumed. Spiral's immunity can still be considered valid - at least for now.
This does not follow. Preserving Spiral's claim to "not making it easier," does not preserve her claim to immunity. The claim to immunity would RELY on Jagang dealing in the same medium as everyone else.

:however the instance Jagang attempts mind control, his presence would become aware to Sinister - ranked as one of highest level telepaths of Marvel (http://www.comicvine.com......) - as it is Jagang himself in some manner who attempts the possession
Jagang uses his power in the space between moments. He is therefore instantaneously aware of this, and acts accordingly by switching targets.

:Any nearby invading mental presence whether directed at him or other team members would be engaged with. Though magic based, a mental assault is still that - to assume simply because it is magic based therefore somehow immune would be erroneous as the basics of mental control remain.
This assumes that the mechanic basics of "mental control," which have no real equivalents, are the same between canons, which you rebutted above. Telepathy is an ability definable in terms of physics, albeit Marvel physics, and limited by it's laws-- ultimately, an interaction between brain cells, which cannot outdo the instantaneous nature of Jagang's magic. By the time any defense could be complicated, the mind would already be lost. Sinister would instead be contemplating an assault upon his allies by that time :). Does Mr. Sinister have possessive abilities? Direct them at everyone not immune to his.

:Sinister has bettered mental assaults from Psylocke, Madelyne Pryor, Jean Grey all of whom possess on par the ability of Jagang.
Each of the characters you described is a mutant, whose abilities rely on their PHYSICAL nature. The gravity of a pea would stand a better chance of holding the pea together despite a nuclear explosion than any defense that takes time to mount could against the instantaneous.

:Furthermore, power engaged with Sinister, can be returned to sender, with additional power. The team is down bar perhaps Oba with his void of magic. At minimum, Jagang's ability is held at bay.
You've thankfully rebutted this already. A mirror can reflect light but not a fist, both of which can be described in terms of physics, what ground can you have for extrapolating from telepaths which can to Jagang which can't?

:Even if all remains, Spiral's dimensional magic requires for the most part the use of complex rituals (dance) to extract the necessary power. Quick fire team paralysis is out.
Jagang, fortunately, does not share my weaknesses of having to ask to be aware of this.
Debate Round No. 2
Puck

Pro

"That would be like saying Goku and Vegeta (if they were allowed in this tournament), were "violating the canon" by ducking behind a skyscraper, because skyscrapers are not invulnerable in their world."

Not the same as the invulnerable property is not an attribute of themselves, unlike the Hive Mind.

"even if the canon he is from contains no instances of him ever being deprived of such an atmosphere."

Just makes for an easy win. :D

"I'm not sure how being a spirit of cities makes you a PART of a city, but presuming it does, such would be valid."

Point was attribution of ability is applied to the character.

"It's not unlimited. The rules prohibit teleporting it out of New York, but not removing it some other way-- if your characters can. It is therefore a strictly limited invulnerability-- limited by location. The man who was not vulnerable while he touched the earth was not unlimited, for he could be lifted."

The tournament rules however stipulate that NY is indestructible - given that leaving NY violates another rule that would precede any discussion of what to do after the invulnerability was revoked. As the battle must remain in NY the ability invulnerable is static, and therefore unlimited (cannot be damaged - leaves no gray area for any partly aspect).

"They are safe from what was described first round. That was my intent."

Understandably the majority of this debate is resolving around Jagang's abitlity - granted your team start inside the Hive would negate my initial plan *shakes fist* the R2 'even if' was not, that dealt with your team inside - that's fine if you want to place all with Jagang, and most likely is relevant to the judge(s) as to whose argument is more compelling.

"If Jagang were limited by foreknowledge of his opponents, the canon would all but certainly describe scouts looking for such opportunities, and people who escaped such knowledge. It doesn't really seem to though."

By that rhetoric we would assume all possibilities to be covered in a book, making them rather long dull, and potentially put editors out of a job. Since we know editors do exist, presumably for purposes other than spell checking, it's not possible to assume what content would/would not be included.

"What makes most sense? Considering the canon, which is that the ease of finding things depends on how powerful they are (Incidentally, he can find not only the "gifted" easily, but also apparently sorcerors and so forth-- and both additive and subtractive help, both being magics from different sources)"

Ha, ok, my reading was that the gift applied to all magic users, not particular sorts, so my usages of that term may have been erroneous prior - the intent of using the term Gift was to indicate all magic users.

"we can presume due to Occam's razor that he can search for other minds with his, and the degree to which they stand out is amplified by the degree of the power those minds directly control, which would explain why he has an easier time with the gifted (Incidentally, this would mean that in a New York of 10 minds, there would be very little to obscure his consciousness)."

He has an easier time with the gifted, presumably because that was the purpose of his abilities form - described as a weapon, with specific intents. That still doesn't indicate other than the fact that his ability, as a weapon of war against magic users, was built for magic of that world, from magic of that world. Nor should it be taken as magic is an entity of one nature, source, pool, from which 'manipulate magic' can be derived. If his magic wasn't tied to the magic of that world, then Richard leaving (and not being present here) would never have been an issue - and presumably the boxes of Orden would have transformed all worlds not just his. Again something the judge(s) will have to resolve.

"This does not follow. Preserving Spiral's claim to "not making it easier," does not preserve her claim to immunity. The claim to immunity would RELY on Jagang dealing in the same medium as everyone else."

To claim magic drawn from dimensions is the same as everyone is erroneous, given even within Marvel, there are multiple sources e.g. within self.

"Jagang uses his power in the space between moments. He is therefore instantaneously aware of this, and acts accordingly by switching targets.
This assumes that the mechanic basics of "mental control," which have no real equivalents, are the same between canons, which you rebutted above. Telepathy is an ability definable in terms of physics, albeit Marvel physics, and limited by it's laws-- ultimately, an interaction between brain cells, which cannot outdo the instantaneous nature of Jagang's magic."

The point raised was that the magic has a physical basis - in this case to transport Jagang's mind elsewhere - if magic of his world had no physical basis, then wizard's fire would not burn, the boxes of Orden would not change matter etc. As the magic indicates a physical basis - it can be engaged on in another physical level, much like Marvel vs. DC can occur, though the share different sets of their particular physics - in this case telepathy. The shifting targets point was addressed by Sinister's ability to sense his presence, thus engage it.

"By the time any defense could be complicated, the mind would already be lost. Sinister would instead be contemplating an assault upon his allies by that time :). Does Mr. Sinister have possessive abilities? Direct them at everyone not immune to his."

It's akin to saying I use my abilty, thus my ability has been used - ignoring that there must still be a process resolved (at least from my standpoint - i.e. trying to take over Sinister's mind would result in Sinister battling for that control).

Each of the characters you described is a mutant, whose abilities rely on their PHYSICAL nature. The gravity of a pea would stand a better chance of holding the pea together despite a nuclear explosion than any defense that takes time to mount could against the instantaneous."

Read above

"A mirror can reflect light but not a fist, both of which can be described in terms of physics, what ground can you have for extrapolating from telepaths which can to Jagang which can't?"

It was a wild swing to be sure. :D Hence the 'At minimum'.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

:Not the same as the invulnerable property is not an attribute of themselves, unlike the Hive Mind.
The invulnerability isn't an attribute of the hive, but an attribute of the city, conferred only when the hive becomes part of the city.

If anyone has bureaucratic powers, I'm sure they could change the legal city limits :).

"

The tournament rules however stipulate that NY is indestructible - given that leaving NY violates another rule that would precede any discussion of what to do after the invulnerability was revoked. As the battle must remain in NY the ability invulnerable is static, and therefore unlimited (cannot be damaged - leaves no gray area for any partly aspect).
"
"
15) Teleporting out of NYC is prohibited."
Am I missing a rule, or is all travel considered teleportation?

"
By that rhetoric we would assume all possibilities to be covered in a book, making them rather long dull, and potentially put editors out of a job. Since we know editors do exist, presumably for purposes other than spell checking, it's not possible to assume what content would/would not be included.
"
You really think Terry Goodkind would permit much editorship other than spell check? I know Ayn Rand wouldn't, and guess who Terry looks up to. Book 8 specifically describes how the primary reason the protagonists aren't being watched all the time is that there are so many minds to sort through and Jagang doesn't know which to start with-- it does not that he can't grab those minds without first being informed of them, which would be a simpler explanation if it were true.

:Ha, ok, my reading was that the gift applied to all magic users, not particular sorts
A wizard, in training wizards of the Second or Third order, has to "alter the way they were born", again in book 8, by essentially adding the gift. Yet for some reason this addition never makes anything other than a wizard.

:That still doesn't indicate other than the fact that his ability, as a weapon of war against magic users, was built for magic of that world, from magic of that world.
Probably true. But that just makes his task more difficult. It's more difficult to lift 75 pounds than 50, but I can still do it in a pinch :).

:The point raised was that the magic has a physical basis - in this case to transport Jagang's mind elsewhere - if magic of his world had no physical basis, then wizard's fire would not burn,
Wizard's fire does not burn pillars of creation, and Jagang's ability does not apply to them. It is therefore a direct magic effect upon the user's mind (Wizard's fire presumably serves as a direct substitute for oxidation, altering the molecules without waiting for the chemical reaction to take place? Or something analogous, but it sure as heck can't be put out like normal fires) , with no intermediary insertion of a physical nature, such as when Zeddicus killed a Pillar of Creation by using his magic to destroy the floor and create shrapnel. So no, no "physical component." Presumably Jagang's intent and perception is translated into magic for the purpose. Therefore,no possibility to fight it off physically.

:It's akin to saying I use my abilty, thus my ability has been used - ignoring that there must still be a process resolved (at least from my standpoint - i.e. trying to take over Sinister's mind would result in Sinister battling for that control).
How would it result in that when the control is instantaneous? No time in which to battle for control. You can't "use your ability thus it has been used" because you are limited by time. Jagang is not, therefore he can use it and thus it is used, nothing to fight.

You cannot argue with the instantaneous, you cannot fight with the instantaneous. Listen, and understand. That dream walker is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It can't be fought with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead, or find a living Lord Rahl in your world to hold the bond, or find a Pillar of Creation.
Debate Round No. 3
Puck

Pro

"The invulnerability isn't an attribute of the hive, but an attribute of the city, conferred only when the hive becomes part of the city."

Agreed it's not inherent of the hive elsewhere, but it is definitely an attribute of it once it becomes a building of New York.

"If anyone has bureaucratic powers, I'm sure they could change the legal city limits :)."

No doubt. :)

""15) Teleporting out of NYC is prohibited."
Am I missing a rule, or is all travel considered teleportation?"

8) All battles shall take place in an indestructible version of New York City. Leaving the fighting area constitutes as defeat.

More in reference of that rule as such a rule would naturally precede any consequence attributed after the issue of having left, and would be moot. As such your building for the entirety of the battle retains an unlimited ability.

"You really think Terry Goodkind would permit much editorship other than spell check? I know Ayn Rand wouldn't, and guess who Terry looks up to. Book 8 specifically describes how the primary reason the protagonists aren't being watched all the time is that there are so many minds to sort through and Jagang doesn't know which to start with-- it does not that he can't grab those minds without first being informed of them, which would be a simpler explanation if it were true."

I know I don't know him, his mind, nor his publisher, editor, initial script, changes etc., so basing hypothetical on the manner of his text preferences seems unwarranted. Maybe in 10 years he can do an anniversary edition and we'll see, assuming its popularity still warrants it (as an aside I would have thought sorting wouldn't be an issue if instantaneous holds true in his world). Naturally he knows of the main protagonists, that information wouldn't be hard to obtain in the least.

"Probably true. But that just makes his task more difficult. It's more difficult to lift 75 pounds than 50, but I can still do it in a pinch :)."

Which still assumes the same basic properties, in that example mass, and to apply it to the scenario, would indicate nothing more than magical strength, not variance. Not to mention such an argument by necessity would have to make a baseless assumption on what limit his ability is still viable, i.e. when is/isn't the property of difference too much.

"Wizard's fire does not burn pillars of creation, and Jagang's ability does not apply to them. It is therefore a direct magic effect upon the user's mind (Wizard's fire presumably serves as a direct substitute for oxidation, altering the molecules without waiting for the chemical reaction to take place? Or something analogous, but it sure as heck can't be put out like normal fires)"

One would not expect fire to burn stone, and presumably the ability 'magic' is the fuel for which the fire burns, so expecting water, for instance, to apply without designating the source for extinction fits too - much like watering flames has no impact, it's controlling the source, the fuel of a fire that counts.

"with no intermediary insertion of a physical nature, such as when Zeddicus killed a Pillar of Creation by using his magic to destroy the floor and create shrapnel. So no, no "physical component." Presumably Jagang's intent and perception is translated into magic for the purpose. Therefore,no possibility to fight it off physically."

From memory, Zeddicus' magic is additive, it changes the essential nature of a thing, which would by necessity require physical interaction on some level between the magic and the constituent changing particles. Simply because he himself is not touching it, much like Jagang doesn't have to literally touch a person, does not preclude a physical component.

"How would it result in that when the control is instantaneous? No time in which to battle for control. You can't "use your ability thus it has been used" because you are limited by time. Jagang is not, therefore he can use it and thus it is used, nothing to fight."

Again it is in essence saying I have used my ability successfully therefore it is successfully used - instantaneous would assume no barrier between Jagang's will and the act - Sinister does not like his (the teams) mind(s) being controlled, and it is his will that opposes the instantaneously.
==

Regards, Puck.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

Ragnar_Rahl forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by MTGandP 8 years ago
MTGandP
It happens to a lot of people. I sent all of my paragraphs separately.
Posted by Clockwork 8 years ago
Clockwork
Sorry about the text block, my PMs didn't format correctly.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
RFD from MTGandP

1 Pro: To start off with, your character explanation section is rather long. It's very descriptive, but I do not want to look at all of that. You say that Deadpool's healing factor works differently to Wolverine's, but you do not say how. Your opening case is well-written and clever, though.

1 Con: A Taxxon hive is only one being, but it has denizens? I'm confused. And it's just not right to say that since your hive is a building, it is therefore indestructible. An indestructible character should be immediately disqualified. But you make up for it with a strong point about the dream walker.

2 Pro: I like your point about how the Taxxon hive was not indestructible in the original canon. Overall, a good case.

2 Con: Your case gets stronger in round 2. But your explanation for why you don't violate rule 2 is faulty and not very convincing. That is a core point, which you should have addressed more deeply. Also, your method of quoting is very hard to read. I can't tell where the quote ends and your writing begins.

3 Pro: I have nothing to say about this. You covered the points pretty adequately.

3 Con: You didn't adequately address Pro's point about why your Taxxon hive character is illegal. You spent too much time arguing side points. It's good that you reinforce the point about Jagang, since that is an important point.

4 Pro: Your case is pleasantly succinct. I would have liked a conclusion/summary at the end, though.

4 Con: This seems to mostly be a repetition of what you already said in previous rounds. Also, since this round was posted in the comments section, conduct goes to Pro.

Conclusion: This was very well done on both sides, but I'm going to have to give the victory to Puck. His case on the Taxxon hive was much stronger, and he did a reasonably good job of refuting Jagang's instantaneous powers. RR's case was good, but Puck's was better.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
RFD from Clockwork: I'm a debater and a judge stuck in my Policy roots even though I mainly do LD. Rules standardizing DDO style debate mean that I will not consider any arguments made in the comments section, including those made by Ragnar_Rahl to substitute for his R4. I will also not base my judging on dropped contentions, so for anyone stuck with me as a judge in the future, if it's not carried through in the crystallization, I'm not counting it. Conduct: Defaulted PRO due to forefeit by CON. S/G: TIE. Nothing noticably distracting. Arguments: Sources of magic vary vastly among various canons and hypothetical universes; it cannot be assumed that they come from the same source because the true sources are stated withing the respective canons. As for immunity to said magicks, mechanics of the said immunities must be observed. The Taxxon hive doesn't seem to acquire the traits of the building it resides in, and could be destroyed from the inside; RR's strategy isn't really all that different from simply hiding inside of one of the indestructible buildings. I could go on and on, and probably will in the comments later, about the many intricacies of the disputes in this debate, but after showing my views on two major axises of this debate, the points go to CON. Sources: I count sources separately from arguments, as they play a major part in the way the debate progresses. Ragnar_Rahl's sources were both better referenced and more helpful. Points to CON. Note to RR: Posting short summaries of your characters would help with judging, just a tip for next round if you make it. I did not count this when deciding points for judging as it was not mentioned by CON.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
RFD from pcmbrown:

Con: Puck. Forfeits make me sad. SG: Tied. Arguments: Puck. The Taxon Hive Mind was successfully excluded, or at least demonstrated to be vulnerable. The point on Jagang's magic was also argued well, and I ultimately sided with Puck on it. R_R forfeited the final round, conceding several arguments. Sources: Puck. He presented far more relevant sources. Win goes to Puck, 6-0.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
MTGandP agreed to do it.
Posted by patsox834 8 years ago
patsox834
I'll do it if there's nobody else.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
It's a tie! Looks like we need a third judge.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Clockwork shall be taking ccstate4peat's place as a judge since ccstate4peat has been banned.
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
I don't mind. Judges can take the comments as the final round it was intended to be. :)
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Mixer 7 years ago
Mixer
PuckRagnar_RahlTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by J.Kenyon 7 years ago
J.Kenyon
PuckRagnar_RahlTied
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Total points awarded:43