The Instigator
ToastOfDestiny
Pro (for)
Winning
41 Points
The Contender
rougeagent21
Con (against)
Losing
6 Points

LM Classic R1: ToastOfDestiny vs. rougeagent21

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/21/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,869 times Debate No: 9005
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (54)
Votes (8)

 

ToastOfDestiny

Pro

I'm creating this debate with five rounds because I am going to be away from the computer from July 25th to the 27th. If it is my turn to argue during this period, I will have to forfeit, and ask rouge not to argue. The debate will continue in the next round as normal. If I do not miss a round, neither of us shall argue in R5.

So begins the L-M Classic! Let's have a good one, rouge!

Rules: http://www.debate.org...

I shall begin by explaining my team, and then my strategy.

1) Kabaji (Prince of Tennis) - Streetlevel
Kabaji is a 7th grade tennis player with the ability to copy any technique shown to him, given time. For instance, he copies the Tezuka Zone and Zero-Shiki Drop Shot immediately. Both are regarded as high-level techniques. The only technique it has taken longer to copy is Hyakuren Jitoku no Kiwami, a technique so difficult to master that only two other characters in the entire series ever use it, which he copies within one tennis match.

[1] Absorbing Tezuka Zone: http://www.onemanga.com... (look at the next page as well by clicking anywhere on the picture)
[2] Absorbing Zero-Shiki: http://www.onemanga.com... (look at the next page as well)
[3] Absorbing Hyakuren: http://www.onemanga.com...

2) Jean Grey (X-Men) without the Phoenix Force
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Jean Grey is regarded as one of the most powerful telepaths in the Marvel Universe. Her telekinetic powers allow her to read and control minds and bodies, rob people of their sense, and manipulate large amounts of matter. She can create strong psionic shields and manipulate objects in complex patterns.

3) Doomsday (DC Comics) during Round 2: Hunter/Prey arc
http://en.wikipedia.org... (click on Doomsday (comics) )
Doomsday has superhuman physical abilities matching, though possibly greater than, Superman's. He has the ability to quickly develop resistance to anything that damages him. He cannot be defeated twice in the same way.

4) Haru Glory (Rave Master) - Streetlevel
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Haru Glory is the protagonist of Rave Master, possessing the Ten Commandments Sword , a sword with ten forms, each granting a different power. Its first form, Eisenmeteor, was destroyed. The remaining forms are:
1) Explosion - cannot cut things, but creates an explosion when it contacts the enemy.
2) Silfarion - has average cutting power, but allows Haru to move at superhuman speed.
3) Runesave - can cut things without physical form, like magical attacks, fire, smoke, and water.
4) Blue Crimson - two blades with the properties of fire and ice, which can be used for ranged attacks.
5) Melforce - fires blasts of air to blow away or paralyze enemies.
6) Gravity Core - an extremely powerful, but heavy sword. Explosion sword on steroids.
7) Million Suns - an extremely bright blade which can blind enemies and banish darkness.
8) Sacrifar - the most destructive blade, exchanges the user's emotions for the power of carnage.
9) Ravelt - the most powerful form, with the ability to banish evil.
In addition, Haru possesses the power of Rave, giving him superhuman physical abilities, and a keen mind.

5) Northstar (X-Men)
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Northstar possesses superhuman speed, durability, basic control over light, and the ability to explosively release heat. He can run at speeds up to Mach 10 without complications. Rather than running by moving his feet, he manipulates the motion of atoms in his body in one direction. This same ability can be used to release flashes of light and heat bursts. Northstar's speed allows him to punch hard enough to damage even the Hulk.

I will be doing battle against this team:
1) Sonic The Hedgehog
2) Brit from Image Comics (has complete physical invulnerability)
3) Taboo from SSB
4) Demon King from Fire Emblem 8
5) The Incredible Hulk

===================
Battle Strategy
===================
The Demon King from Fire Emblem is incapacitated at the start. He can only attack if he is first attacked, in which case he can perform one counterattack, or when the opposing team has finished attacking. I shall post a video of this weakness next round. My team can deal with him after the rest of Team Con.

At the beginning of the battle, Jean Grey uses mind control on Brit, turning him to Team Pro. He will feign allegiance with Team Con until later.
-Brit no longer effective-

Jean Grey reads Team Con's minds, learning their abilities and plan. She communicates this with the rest of my team.

Kabaji walks into a building for protection.

Northstar dashes towards and engages Sonic at hyperspeed. He uses his ability to generate flashes of light to blind Sonic, before going in for the K.O.
-Sonic Down-

Brit encourages Team Con to split up, taking Taboo with him, and leaving the Hulk. While searching for Team Pro, Brit lets off a signal , heralding the arrival of Haru. The two do battle with Taboo, soundly defeating him. All of Taboo's magic attacks can be beaten back by Haru's Runesave (counter-magic). After Taboo attacks, there is a brief period in which he pauses. Haru and Brit can take advantage of this to attack him. Brit lets the dukes fly, and Haru chains together Silfarion (speed) and Ravelt (counter-evil, regular sword) to take down Taboo.
-Taboo Down-

Doomsday engages the Hulk, aided by whichever Team Pro members are done with their battles. With the rest of Team Con in the gutter, or waiting for Pro to finish attacking(here's looking at you, Demon King), it's a 5-on-1 slugfest. Doomsday can match the Hulk in strength to an extent, while Haru combines Silfarion(speed) with Gravity Core (high damage). Brit takes advantage of his invulnerability to be a living shield for Team Pro. All the while, Jean Grey is mentally assaulting the Hulk, taking down his senses. After a sound thrashing, the Hulk is defeated.
-Hulk Down-

Finally, Team Pro can turn its attention to the Demon King, who is watching this destruction. Because Kabaji has yet to attack, the Demon King can only retaliate. Team Pro attacks him one by one, with Haru dealing the finishing blow with Ravelt (counter-evil)
-Demon King Down-

Victory for Team Pro!
rougeagent21

Con

As requested by my opponent, I will not post this round. I have waited as long as possible to give him the most time available to respond. I look forward to arguing in further rounds.
Debate Round No. 1
ToastOfDestiny

Pro

I would like to thank rouge for being accomodating of my needs. To keep this debate as normal as possible, I will only post my promised videos this round. Rouge can post his arguments in the next slot (R2), and we will both argue in rounds 3-5, giving us each 4 rounds to have our say.

Skip ahead in the first video until the fighting begins (1:40). Once you are there, please note that the Demon King can only attack if he is first assaulted, or once the opposing team has finished attacking. In the second video, note how Taboo pauses between his attacks and can only teleport over short distances.
rougeagent21

Con

Once again, I have waited as long as possible to give my opponent a fair chance to respond. Time to argue!

I will start by clarifying the "weaknesses" that my opponent points out about my characters.

=============
Demon King
=============

My opponent claims that the DK can only retaliate, and not attack on his own. This is not true. My opponent provides a video that demonstrates the DK's lack of attack. If my opponent has ever played the game, he would know that the DK can attack on his own. In the game, the DK spends his first turn spawning minions. If the player of FE8 had taken another turn to defeat him, he would realize that the DK DOES attack after spawning his minions.

That strategy by the DK is used in the game, but by no means must be used in all of his battles. Since he has the ability to attack, I could easily command him to do so in this battle.

I also believe that my opponent's video helps me more than him. Look at the weapons used to kill the DK. They are "legendary" weapons. They are infused with special power used by the heroes of old. If you use normal weapons, they give him little to no damage.

Also realize that FE is a strategy game. You move, then the computer moves. In this battle, everyone is moving at the same time. There are no "turns."

Notice also how much damage the DK gives while fighting the player's team. He kills and comes close to killing several other characters. The characters he is fighting also have built up resistance to his magic attacks. This resistance is not built up by my opponent's team. If he can so easily kill people who have resistance to his strength, how much more so would he obliterate my opponent's team?

Unfortunately, that is all the time I have to post right now. As I have been more than gracious to my opponent, I would ask that he allow me to post my full argument next round. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 2
ToastOfDestiny

Pro

===
The Demon King
===
There has been some misunderstanding here. I do know that DK can attack, but there are only two circumstances in which he can do so. One is if he is first attacked, in which case he counterattacks. The second is when the opposing team has finished attacking, in which case he can attack properly.

"They are "legendary" weapons. They are infused with special power used by the heroes of old."
My team does have 'legendary' powers. Haru's sword is easily comparable to any legendary weapon from FE8. In its source material (Rave Master), it is a weapon forged to combat the ultimate evil. The Ten Commandments Sword is the most powerful weapon in Rave Master, so no problems there.

Northstar can travel at speeds of up to Mach 10. I doubt that the Demon King ever has to face an enemy who can build up that much speed and momentum. In fact, if Northstar weighs a modest 150lbs and runs at top speed (76120.7 mi/hr), that's like getting hit with a blue whale at 50 mi/hr[1]. That's our friend from the deep cruising at near highway speed!

Jean Grey could levitate a skyscraper (by uprooting it, leaving it completely intact) and drop it on Demon King. The Sears Tower weighs 440 million pounds [2]. Even a more modest skyscraper that tips the scales at 100 million pounds, would cause severe trauma. If nothing else, Jean could start bringing in houses and dropping them on Demon King successively.

Doomsday can match Superman in sheer strength. His fists are formidable.

"[The Demon King] kills and comes close to killing several other characters."
These characters have human-level health.

"This resistance is not built up by my opponent's team."
Doomsday could easily adapt a resistance, and Jean Grey could use her psychic powers to block the attacks. Haru could also cover Team Pro by negating DK's magic with Rune Save (seals/attacks magic). To protect herself, Jean Grey could attack while inside a building. DK's attacks can't penetrate indestructible architecture.

"You move, then the computer moves. In this battle, everyone is moving at the same time. There are no "turns."
Unfortunately, the Demon King only knows one way to do battle. He has to wait for the opponent to attack, or for the entire opposing team to finish attacking. I challenge rouge to show any evidence to the contrary - a video in which Demon King attacks without these constraints.

The constraints would apply to any of the other characters from Fire Emblem as well. They can only attack once or move once before they must wait.

===
Taboo is, well, taboo.
===
After doing some research, I have uncovered a major weakness of Taboo. He can only exist in Subspace, not New York[3]. His powers only work in Subspace, which is why he sends out an army to do his work in Super Smash Brothers Brawl.

I will now detail some further strategies.

===
The Brit Bullet
===
At any point where I have control of Brit, Northstar grabs hold of him and dashes off at an enemy. Once a sufficient speed has been reached, Brit is released, becoming a missile of meat. If he impacts someone at Mach 9, the result would be devastating. Remember, Brit is completely physically invulnerable. He will not give way - the target will.

===
Mind Control Mayhem
===
Rather than controlling only Brit, Jean Grey could switch off between Team Con members, causing infighting. At one second, Sonic would speedblitz the Hulk. Moments later, Brit would team up with the Hulk against Demon King (whose counterattacks would weaken the Hulk). Subsequently. Demon King would be mind-controlled to Team Pro, allowing him to attack. His spawned minions and demon lightning would make short work of the Hulk. The process would continue, resulting in Con's defeat.

===
Super Speedblitz
===
Jean Grey takes control of Sonic, and Haru uses Silfarion (speed). Haru, Sonic and Northstar turn Team Con to mincemeat at supersonic speed.

[1]http://www.animalinfo.org...
[2]http://www.pbs.org...
[3]http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com...
rougeagent21

Con

I apologize for my inability to post an argument this round. I simply do not have enough time to be on the computer since I have company over. I will do my best to post next round. I will also work on obtaining the video of the DK. Thank you for your patience.
Debate Round No. 3
ToastOfDestiny

Pro

I understand rouge's predicament, and hope that he is able to post an argument next round.

I have a few more strategies to add to my arsenal this round.

The Hulk is arguably rouge's most powerful team member, perhaps even the most powerful hero out there. While I may be able to bring him down with sheer force, there is a nonviolent road leading to his demise.

===
Hulk-Buster Alpha
===
When the Hulk is the last Team Con member standing, Jean Grey switches hiding spots to a hair salon, and dyes her hair to match Betty Ross, the Hulk/Bruce Banner's main love interest. From there, a short trip to a mall would give her matching clothes. Jean/Betty would approach the Hulk and try to calm him down, with Northstar ready to save her if things turned ugly

===
Hulk-Buster Beta
===
Once the rest of Team Con is down for the count, Team Pro hides itself in various buildings. They make sure that the entrances to these structures are too small for the Hulk to fit through, preventing him from breaking in.
Northstar, Haru (using Silfarion for speed), and perhaps Sonic if I let him live and mind-control him, dash to various stores and malls to procure blue cellophane wrap, LEDs, lava lamps, lanterns, paint and lightbulbs. They cover all the city's streetlamps with blue cellophane, tinting the light they release, making it blue. They replace as many lightbulbs as possible with their blue counterparts, and install as many lamps, lanterns and LED's as possible without attracting the Hulk's attention. A quick splatter-paint session would turn most skyscrapers a soothing shade of aqua.

Northstar enters the city's power station. There, he allows Jean Grey to take possession of his mind while she scans the terminals, controls and instructions. After discerning what to do, Jean/Northstar turns on the power grid activating the city's streetlights. Large portions of the city are now bathed in blue light. Evidence shows that blue light has a calming effect and reduces crime [1].

As this is going on, Haru and Sonic steal various posters of kittens, puppies and pandas, as well as printing out the following images:
1) http://images.google.co.in...
2) http://www.crainium.net...
3) http://mrdeadworry.files.wordpress.com...

Just google 'cutest animals' and you'll get the idea. With pictures and posters on hand, the speedsters will wallpaper NYC with cute propaganda.

Now, picture the scene. The Hulk is wandering NYC alone, bathed in calming blue light. He sees kittens. He sees hamsters. He sees rabbits. Provided his heart doesn't melt on the spot and drench his pancreas, he cannot still be angry. To be especially sure, Jean Grey bombards his mind with more cute-o-ganda, and he reverts to Bruce Banner.

If the Hulk manages to somehow resist reverting, he is still calmed, making for an easy 1-2-3 with Doomsday, Northstar, and Haru (using Gravity Core for damage).

===
De-Demoning the King
===
Many of DK's abilities are based on magic - a weakness that Haru can exploit. In source material, Haru seals the magical abilites of a friend to save her [2][3][4]. Later on in the series, he battles an opponent with a similar sword. His opponent's version of Rune Save seals Haru's. All Haru needs is a quick strike with Rune Save, which he can achieve by using Silfarion (speed) to find an opening before striking, and he can seal DK's magic.

Let's see what you've got, rouge!

[1] http://psychcentral.com...
[2] http://www.onemanga.com...
[3] http://www.onemanga.com...
[4] http://www.onemanga.com...
rougeagent21

Con

Once again, I apologize. I probably should not have entered the tournament. I entered to speed this thing up, and I have only slowed it down. If it is acceptable to the judges, I would post next round. I realize it might be unfair though. Message me and let me know what to do. Thanks guys.
Debate Round No. 4
ToastOfDestiny

Pro

That's about it in terms of strategies from me. I believe the tactics I have detailed above should be more than enough to give me victory.

When voting, please consider the following things, in addition to the above strategies.

1) If Team Con tries to speedblitz, they would rely on Sonic. Jean Grey could easily take over his mind giving me three team members with great speed. This results in my victory.
2) The Demon King can only attack if he is first attacked or if the other team has finished attacking. My team doesn't 'finish' like the fighters in Fire Emblem 8. The Demon King's normal adversaries can only attack once, whereas my team can attack for extended periods of time.
3) Taboo is also useless - he can only exist in Subspace.
4) Any tricks or cunning that Team Con attempts are likely to be found out by my team. Haru has a very keen mind thanks to the Rave of Knowledge that he possesses, and Jean Grey can always find out Team Con's true intentions.
5) As an extension of the above, any strategy that Team Con tries can immediately be found out by my team via a simple mind-read.

Thank you, and vote Pro!
rougeagent21

Con

I concede. Good job to PRO; sorry for not being more of a challenge.
Debate Round No. 5
54 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by sherlockmethod 7 years ago
sherlockmethod
All points Pro on this one. Good luck with LM.
Posted by Clockwork 7 years ago
Clockwork
I am so annoyed that I didn't pick this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Posted by Narwal19 7 years ago
Narwal19
Very entertaining
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
@Patsox: Galactus > Silver Surfer. So for the godliest team ever, go with that.
Posted by rougeagent21 7 years ago
rougeagent21
Its all good. I only wanted to get the tourney underway.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
Sorry rougeagent if my comment below seemed rude.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
I'll try to get my round up ASAP, ToastofDestiny. Just let me know whether or not you intend to use your optional character in this debate (in other words, make adjustments to your team list) as well as whether or not you wanna have prep time involved.

In terms of the height stipulations of the battle, I willing to settle for 1 mile above the highest point in NYC.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
You gotta judge my debate with ToastofDestiny. :D
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
So I guess that means I don't have to judge, huh.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
rougeagent21 loses as stipulated by the forfeit rule.

Since ToastOfDestiny has a higher number than Logical Master, Logical-Master shall be the instigator in their debate. Logical-Master shall challenge ToastofDestiny within a maximum of 72 hours from now. Otherwise, a forfeit.

One more thing: ToastofDestiny, please pick one of rougeagent21's teammates and add him/her as an optional member of your team since you've won.
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by rougeagent21 7 years ago
rougeagent21
ToastOfDestinyrougeagent21Tied
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Vote Placed by TFranklin62 7 years ago
TFranklin62
ToastOfDestinyrougeagent21Tied
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Vote Placed by ToastOfDestiny 7 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
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Vote Placed by sherlockmethod 7 years ago
sherlockmethod
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Vote Placed by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
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Vote Placed by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
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Vote Placed by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
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