The Instigator
sherlockmethod
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
MTGandP
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

LM Classic: Sherlockmethod vs MTGandP

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/27/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,770 times Debate No: 9051
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (31)
Votes (3)

 

sherlockmethod

Pro

I look forward to a great time in my very first Ultimate Team Challenge. I would like to thank LM for the tournament, and my opponent. Good luck.
We agreed to a 30 min prep time and character presentation in the first round.

Pro's Team
1)Dr. Doom – Second only to Stephen Strange in knowledge of the arcane arts among humanoids, Victor Von Doom is one of the most prolific villains in the Marvel Universe. He possesses a genius level intellect and can transfer his mind to another body. Doom possesses superhuman strength when in his armor and the armor limits telepathic attacks as well. Most importantly, Doom is a master manipulator. Doom is a top nothch scientist and is meticulous in his attention to detail. http://marvel.wikia.com...(Earth-616)

2)Ghost Rider – Danny Ketch. Ghostie is the spirit of vengeance. His body is consumed in hellfire. He possesses superhuman strength, a mystical chain that can separate into individual bolts that are also surrounded in hellfire. He has the power of the penance stare which causes its victims to feel any pain they have caused others including grief and most importantly their own feelings of guilt, whether real or imagined, in one split instance. Most humans never fully recover. In addition, Ghost Rider possesses a motorcycle that can reassemble itself (the process is unknown), respond to Ghostie's summons and scale the sides of buildings. He cannot produce multiple motorcycles at once. http://marvel.wikia.com...

3)Hawkeye - He possesses no super human powers, and has the strength and dexterity of a human who engages in intense exercise and training. He could easily compete at an Olympic level in acrobatics. He is considered one of the greatest marksmen in the world and most notably works with a bow and an array of various trick and explosive arrows. http://marvel.wikia.com...(Earth-616)

4)Deadshot – He possesses no super human powers but is a deadly marksman on level with Hawkeye. His hand to hand combat skills are stellar and he can hold his own against most fighters of similar strength. He also appears to have a death wish, making him a formidable opponent. http://dc.wikia.com...

5)Hannibal King – Hannibal is a vampire privy to all the powers, and weaknesses, generally associated with vampires in common lore with the exception that he can be in the sunlight for short time periods. Hannibal possesses superhuman strength and can turn into a near invisible mist form. Lastly, he has the ability to control and see through the eyes of rodents, particularly rats. Limits on this ability are unknown, but he has garnered all rats in a town so the scale may not be millions, but at least hundreds of thousands. http://marvel.wikia.com... http://en.wikipedia.org...

Strategy:
Prep Time:
My opponent's team is far stronger and faster than mine, but what Doom and his team lack in strength and speed can be made up with ingenuity. In the 30 minute prep period, Doom charges Hawkeye's arrows with a mystical force allowing them to cause arcane damage. He sends the others to collect extra arrows, ammo, bows, food provisions, and at least three coffins, or similar containers that block out the sun. In addition, the list includes a few dozen empty vials, some first aid supplies, scalpels and a Bunsen burner. All the stores in the city are probably closed, but Hannibal simply mists under them, and unlocks the doors for his teammates. He uses the rats' eyes to find all the needed items in a short time. Doom collects small amounts of King's blood into the vials, and both humans are given small, near paper cuts on different points of their bodies with the vials wrapped over the wound with bandages. With any time left, Hannibal uses the rats' eyes in the New York Museum of Natural History to find any material resembling Doom's description of Kryptonite. He does not find any but will look more, if time permits. Doom relays all the plans and alternate methods of attack. As much as the heroes hate him, they follow him after he conveys his similar experiences in Secret Wars.

Confrontation:
Upon entering the field of combat, Hannibal King immediately goes to mist form summoning the city's rat population closer to their location, but still in the sewers. He will remain in the sewers using the rats as his eyes. Doom quickly throws up a force shield which he can probably hold for a short time, but not indefinitely as he is not as strong in power as Dr. Strange. Doom speaks through the force shield asking to be heard or all their fates will come soon. Superman and Wonder Women agree to listen as they would not allow for their teammates to die due to refusal of a simple request. Doom explains that Onslaught is too dangerous to be allowed to fight and because no other dimensions can be accessed from this place the effect of its energy dispersion would kill them all, except Superman. Victor then tells Superman that his knowledge of the mystic arts would allow him to enclose Onslaught when his energy form emerges. Doom quickly relays the storyline and asks Superman to confirm the story with Cable and Wolverine. Each agrees with the events and agrees Doom is second only to Dr. Strange in power, but Doom is not to be trusted. Doom quickly reminds them that only four would be needed to best him and his team as his team is not as strong. Superman, always the Boy Scout, and unable to deal with the death of his friends, agrees Onslaught is too dangerous. The combined force of Superman, Wonder Women, Ghost Rider, and Doom make quick work of Onslaught. The others stay back out of harms way.
Onslaught: Destroyed.

Once the truce is over, Doom enters WW's body (err…not that way, either) and she immediately knocks Superman across the head and throws her gauntlets to Hawkeye, and her lasso and tiara to Dead Shot. Doom quickly leaves her body to return to his, but he must be weak at this point due to the force shield, and the transfer. On the preset signal, Hawkeye shoots arrows along with Deadshot's bullets at WW, who is disoriented due to the body transfer. Neither man is known to miss. The arrows find their mark, her eyes. She is not invulnerable and the arrows into her brain and a slew of bullets from Deadshot leave her dead and, consequently, a meal.
WW: Deceased

As soon as WW punches Supes and the others focus on her, Ghost Rider rides toward the Man of Steel who must surely be stunned from WW's punch. His momentary weakness allows the Rider to administer the penance stare. All the pain he has caused in the form of grief, his inability to keep his family out of harm's way, the destruction wrought by Doomsday and his feelings of loss as the only survivor of his home planet hit his mind and emotions in an instant leaving the Man of Tomorrow a pile of Kryptonian guilt and red underoos.
Superman: Incapacitated

Upon seeing the first part of the plan in action, Hannibal summons as many rats as he can while staying in mist form. At his command, thousands upon thousands ascend from the sewers and converge on Cable and Wolverine. DeadShot and Hawkeye start shooting at both; once Supes is done, the Ghost Rider adds hellfire to the mix and his chain. Cable can dodge some as can Wolvie, but the rats make moving too difficult. Neither can withstand the multiple attacks. Any physical attacks on Hawkeye or shots fired will be deflected by his new found bracers and Dead Shot is as good at dodging fire as he is administering it. Wolverine's healing has limits (See: Fatal Attractions) and the rats combined with the other attacks leave nothing but an adamantium skeleton and some parts formerly known as Cable.
Wolverine and Cable: Eaten alive.

The combatants survey the field and tie Supes up with Wonder Women's rope; the rats are well fed, the regular humans have new toys, and Doom has an adamantium skeleton to add to his collection.
MTGandP

Con

I thank my opponent and welcome him to his first Ultimate Team War. Good luck!

Due to space constraints, I have only listed my characters' most important abilities. My team members have some abilities that are not specified here. See my sources for a more complete list.

========
(Street Level) Team Member 1: Cable [1, 2]
-"Telekinetically, Cable is capable of very fine control over objects; he can disassemble complex devices explosively (separating every last component, such as screws, nuts, circuit boards, etc.), and just as quickly and easily assemble complex devices." He is strong enough to telekinetically lift a small city.
-He can create forcefields which can hold against "the ground zero detonation of a 1 kiloton nuclear warhead (4.18 terajoules of energy from the heat, concussion and radiation effects)."
-"He has displayed the ability to control the minds and even voluntary and involuntary bodily functions of sentient beings (such as other Humans)".
-"Cable has proven very difficult to psychically assail, as he is very well skilled in shielding his own mind from mental-attacks (such as attempts to read, control or harm his own mind), and has been sufficient to protect himself from other psychics on the level of Phoenix".
-Due to nerve enhancements, Cable has superhuman reflexes. He can dodge a bullet and even follow its path with his eye.
-Cable is capable of flight.

========
(Street Level) Team Member 2: Wolverine [3]
-Wolverine heals very quickly. He can sustain gunshot wounds and heal fully within minutes. His healing also means he never ages.
-He is highly resistant to traditional toxins and diseases. His resistance to lactic acid and other bodily toxins give him increased endurance.
-Wolverine's senses are much better than the average human, in particular his hearing. "Wolverine can use these enhanced senses to track any creature with an impressive degree of success."
-Underneath Wolverine's skin lay six retractable bone claws. His bone is stronger than the average human, so he can use these claws to cut through most materials.
-Wolverine's healing factor is intense, but has limits. He will die if subjected to massive blood loss or loss of vital organs.

========
Team Member 3: Onslaught [4, 5]
-Onslaught is ten feet tall and stronger than the average human. His strength is not as great as most super-strong superheroes, but he is still much stronger and more durable than the average human. He is very skilled at personal combat.
-Onslaught can create and manipulate magnetic fields, giving him great control over metal. He is powerful enough to significantly shift the earth's magnetic field, and is precise enough to assemble a complicated mechanical device within seconds.
-He can create force fields that hold against both physical and telepathic attacks.
-His telepathic powers match those of Professor X. He can "induce illusions, temporary mental or physical paralysis, loss of specific memories, or total amnesia; project mind-numbing mental bolts; and sense the presence of mutants within a small radius." [6] He can use these forms of mental manipulation on dozens of people at a time.
-Onslaught can completely take over the mind of another, but can only do so to one person at a time.

========
Team Member 4: Wonder Woman [7]
"flight, super-strength, super-speed, highly developed fighting skills, enhanced hearing, enhanced vision, animal empathy, regeneration (healing factor), sisterhood with fire, high resistance to magic. Blessed with the gifts of the Olympian Gods, Wonder Woman is one of the strongest beings on the planet; she can fly at sublight speed; while not invulnerable, she is highly resistant to bodily harm; she can psychically communicate with animals; she is an expert at all forms of classical armed and unarmed combat; a master of the sword, ax, and bow and arrow; a skilled tactician and diplomat; her arsenal includes a magic lasso that forces anyone within its confines to tell the absolute truth; her bracelets can deflect bullets [...] Wonder Woman has at her disposal a small lightweight disc of alien (Lansinar) technology that, when triggered by her thoughts, transforms into a transparent version of whatever object or vehicle is appropriate for her needs."

========
Team Member 5: Superman [8, 9, 10]
Everyone knows what Superman can do, right? See sources for details.

==========

Q: Could you elaborate on what this means? "Doom explains that Onslaught is too dangerous to be allowed to fight and because no other dimensions can be accessed from this place the effect of its energy dispersion would kill them all, except Superman." I would like a better understanding of why Doom thinks Onslaught is dangerous.

========
Prep Time

Although Dr. Doom may possess vast intellect, both Onslaught and Cable are vastly more powerful at mental manipulation. Before the battle begins, Onslaught can give a psionic forcefield to each member of Team MTGandP. This renders Doom's trickery ineffective (although frankly, Superman is smart enough to see through it). My opponent's entire strategy relied on this point. Other than the forcefields, no preparation is necessary for this strategy.

=========
Confrontation

Plan A
This part is simple. Superman and/or Wonder Woman assassinate Team Sherlockmethod before anyone has time to react. The only one left is Hannibal King in mist form. Onslaught or Cable could mind-control Hannibal and force him to either come out of mist form so that he can be killed, or force him to kill himself. Team Sherlockmethod eliminated.

Plan B
Let's assume that, despite the three reasons why he wouldn't, Superman listens to Dr. Doom. While Doom is talking to Superman, Wonder Woman can quickly incapacitate Doom, causing Superman to snap out of his stupor. Or Onslaught can simultaneously reclaim Superman's mind and crush Doom with a large piece of metal.

Plan C
Now let's assume that Onslaught is for some reason incapacitated. My opponent's next step relies on this: "On the preset signal, Hawkeye shoots arrows along with Deadshot's bullets at WW, who is disoriented due to the body transfer." WW has a great deal of training and field experience, and would not be disoriented so easily. Even if she were, Cable can protect her with a forcefield.

Plan D
"[Superman's] momentary weakness allows the Rider to administer the penance stare."
That's what the psionic forcefield is for. Besides, it's very hard to lock eyes with a disoriented person. Although my opponent gets points for saying "underoos".

Plan E
Cable's forcefields can hold against nuclear warheads. I think he can protect himself from a few bullets and a few rats. Even if these two are the only ones left alive:
-Cable mind controls Ghost Rider. GR and Wolvie can take down the rest of Team Sherlockmethod (and remember that a few well-placed arrows won't hurt Wolvie.)

As I have shown, Team Sherlockmethod is unable to defeat Team MTGandP. It is clear that my team far outclasses my opponent's; with my entire team intact, it is a simple matter to overwhelm and defeat Team Sherlockmethod.

Team Sherlockmethod may have witty comments and good imagery; not to say that those aren't fun, but they won't matter when Team MTGandP has completely obliterated them.

========

[1] http://www.superherodb.com...
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...(comics)
[3] http://www.superherodb.com...
[4] http://marvel.com...
[5] http://www.superherodb.com...
[6] http://www.marveldirectory.com...
[7] http://www.superherodb.com...
[8] http://www.superherodb.com...
[9] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[10] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 1
sherlockmethod

Pro

I thank my opponent for his response, and I am familiar with all the characters on his team so the brief introductions in no way inhibit their abilities in this debate.

Contentions concerning Con's team:
We were told to present a team with two street level characters; my opponent's team does not meet this criteria. He designates Wolverine (Shall I call you Logan, Weapon X? My name is Kevin Smith so I had to throw in a reference … snoogins) as a street level player and the guidelines specifically mentioned Logan as street level. My contention is with Cable. Per my opponent's sources and arguments:
1."He is strong enough to telekinetically lift a small city." (Con, RD 1) Supported by source.
2."Has been sufficient to protect himself from other psychics on the level of Phoenix." (Con, RD 1) Supported by source.
3."Cable's forcefields can hold against nuclear warheads."
4.I cannot disagree with these contentions as they appear to be true.
5.When street level toons were mentioned and listed, I did not find a single one that could withstand a nuclear blast or that can levitate an entire city while fighting the Silver Surfer. (Opponent's sources) LM could not have meant such a beast to be called street level. I ask the judges to review a full list of his powers and decide if he meets the criteria for street level. http://marvel.com... I conclude he does not.

Onslaught:
1.Onslaught is a collective. He is a combination of Prof X and Magneto, in addition to a requisition of two more powerful beings. (See opponent's source) He possesses the powers of Prof X, Magneto, X-Man and Franklin Richards. I specifically asked about collectives and was told we could not use such beings. (Please see LM Classic thread)

My opponent used his prep time to enact a psionic force field over his team, and nothing more.

Why would Superman listen to Doom?
Because he is Superman and but for allowing his opponents to speak, he could have killed Luthor a thousand times over. Doom would be a familiar character for the Man of Steel as he would be reminded of Lex Luthor. The genius of these two is not that they necessary trick or mind manipulate in the sense of super powers, but the nuggets of truth in their statements force the heroes to compromise. Doom, one who has mastered this technique, would accurately describe the events of Onslaught, would get confirmation from two of Kent's teammates, and Superman would see the danger in allowing Onslaught to fight. Unless the psionic force field rendered team MTGandP deaf, it would have no effect.
Why is Onslaught too dangerous?
He is a collective of two powerful mutants that nearly destroyed all of humanity. The only saving grace was the dimensional rift created that allowed the heroes to live. In the absence of dimensional transfer, a rule of this tournament, the resulting energy form, once his armor is pulled (a task Ghost Rider could accomplish), would be highly unpredictable and the only person present that could create a shield to stop its pure energy form from killing them all, is Doom. Superman may not care for the others on his team, but he would not risk such an event killing Wonder Woman.

Rebutting Plan A: Doom is strong enough to create a force field to withstand most attacks for a very short time period. If team MTGandP attacked then obviously Doom could not speak then team Sherlock would enact plan B. The force field around my team would stop the first wave of a speed attack or a psionic attack just long enough to allow Ghost Rider to create a hellfire barrier. Hellfire burns the soul, and would surely put a hiccup in both Supes and WW's super speedy giddy up. They would not be rendered useless, but slowed enough for GR to give Supes the penance stare. The stare does not require focused eye contact but even a disoriented Superman must still possess human level focus when stunned. Wonder Women is not invulnerable and has been hospitalized due to a bullet wound. http://dc.wikia.com...(Diana)
She will not be attacked by two circus acts. Deadshot and Hawkeye rank among the top marksmen in their respective universes. One of the two will get the shot on a stunned WW. Once injured, GR gives the stare to WW
Superman and WW: incapacitated.

Simultaneously, Doom body transfers to Onslaught. He can in no way attempt to mind control the collective, but he has fought Onslaught before and knows Franklin Richards is still in there somewhere if Onslaught is still alive. While alive, Onslaught hampered all the telepathic abilities on earth, surely Doom can manipulate Franklin to perform that act again. Cable's and Hannibal's mind control powers are gone … so are the rats. Franklin destroyed Onslaught once before so Doom convinces him that doing it again will free him and he could protect himself in the process by merging with Doom. Unable to complete the rift to save everyone, Franklin implodes the collective seconds after Doom returns to his shielded armor with Franklin's mind. Without the dimension rift, the likely result would be a psionic blast resulting in a large psoinic residue (Big Bang background microwave style!) destroying all except for Doom and an incapacitated Superman. In Franklin's weakened state, Doom merely pushes his mind out his body to die in the psionic residue. He observes his dead teammates and enemies, and decided he did not like them anyway. He collects the dead humans as they will be vampires soon from the broken vials of vampire blood. Doom then goes to the museum to examine the mineral collection. He will find some kryptonite in the weeks it takes Clark to recover, if he ever does. Doom wins.

Plan B rebuttal:
Wonder Women would side with Superman, follow his lead and go after Onslaught; she would be able to pull out his armor just like the Hulk did. Same results listed in rd 1.

Plan C rebuttal:
A body transfer coupled with the loss of her equipment would cause a stupor. Her natural reaction would be to cross her forearms over her to block the fire, but without the bracers, this move is useless. She is not invulnerable and some of the bullets and arrows are likely to hit their mark from two top marksman. Cable could put a force shield, but I am not certain he could maintain a force shield for an extended period of time to prevent thousands and thousands of rats from coming after him with his own shield and Wonder Women nor Cable could attack outside the shield. The large number of rats would envelop them once the shields were taken down to attack.

Plan D rebuttal:
A psionic force shield would not stop the penance stare, that is not how the power works. The stare attacks emotions; the force shield would be useless. Direct eye contact is not required and Superman, even dazed, would have at least human level awareness rendering the issue moot.

Plan E rebuttal:
Cables force shield should not hold against the mystic charged arrows now in Hawkeye's quiver, and the rats, and Dr. Doom and Hellfire; it is only a matter of time before the shield falls to one of them. I wish Cable luck in trying to mind control Ghost Rider. He is likely to come out in worse shape than he went in. When Ghostie was less informed on his powers, Psylocke ventured in there and had considerable trouble. Cable would be completely preoccupied with the endeavor and would likely not succeed. Doom and Hannibal could take care of him in this state. If the arrows don't get Wolverine, the rats will. Remember Judges, NYC has a lot of rats. Hannibal cannot get them all at once, but his supply is large enough for several waves of attack once the first few are killed.
MTGandP

Con

Cable
My opponent says that Cable is not street level because he is too powerful. However, street level characters are "people who spend their time dealing with local adversaries AND/OR are essentially on a human level." Cable spent a good deal of his history dealing with local adversaries. He also spent much time teaming up with Deadpool, a character who is street-level in power (http://en.wikipedia.org...(comics)). He also has fought with Gambit, a confirmed street-level character.

Onslaught
My opponent claims that Onslaught is a collective. But the official rules say nothing about collectives (http://www.debate.org...). He makes a fair point in that Onslaught contains X-Man and Franklin Richards; however, my strategy does not rely on those beings, and in fact the Onslaught that I am using does not contain those two. (http://www.debate.org...) Onslaught is a single being with one body and one mind. Thus, not a collective.

========

"My opponent used his prep time to enact a psionic force field over his team, and nothing more."
For that strategy, yes.

Why would Superman not listen to Doom?

"Because he is Superman and but for allowing his opponents to speak, he could have killed Luthor a thousand times over."
Mere plot devices. While Superman is under my command, he will make no such mistake.

"Superman would see the danger in allowing Onslaught to fight."
There is no danger. Onslaught is absolutely loyal to me (UTW rule 6), and Superman knows it.

"[Onslaught] is a collective of two powerful mutants that nearly destroyed all of humanity."
It's a good thing the battleground isn't populated.

Now, it's a simple matter for Onslaught to mind control Superman and force him to kill Dr. Doom. Without Superman, no one else will attack Onslaught.

Plan A
My opponent's strategy relies on several flawed ideas. First, the idea that Doom would be able to hold off Superman and WW with a forcefield. He would not. The two are immensely strong and fast: either one of them could break the forcefield and kill Doom before anyone has time to react. Superman can fly between star systems and obliterate comets: I think he can break one little forcefield.

Secondly, why would the hellfire stun or even harm Supes and WW at all? Ghost Rider and Supes/WW are on completely different levels, and WW has her gauntlets that can easily deflect the hellfire. And if that for some reason isn't adequate, Onslaught or Cable can provide them with a protective forcefield before the battle.

Third, how would Doom body transfer to Onslaught? Onslaught has a very high resistance to psionic attacks. And he has a psionic shield.

"Franklin Richards is still in there somewhere if Onslaught is still alive."
I am using Onslaught from before he captured Franklin.

Plan B
WW would not side with Superman if she killed Doom first. Besides, why would she side with Superman instead of Onslaught? She's intelligent; she would talk Superman out of killing Onslaught.

Plan C
Why would WW lose her equipment? And anyway, losing equipment shouldn't cause disorientation.

"She is not invulnerable and some of the bullets and arrows are likely to hit their mark from two top marksman."
Unless she kills them first. She's a lot faster than they are. And she can dodge bullets.

"Cable could put a force shield, but I am not certain he could maintain a force shield for an extended period of time to prevent thousands and thousands of rats"
I thought the rats were gone. (See my opponent's round 2 plan A). See Plan E for Cable vs. rats. Cable, while holding the forcefield, can just mind control the rats one by one and cause them to either kill each other or attack Team Sherlockmethod.

Plan D
"A psionic force shield would not stop the penance stare, that is not how the power works. The stare attacks emotions; the force shield would be useless."
Emotions are centered in the brain, are they not? The force field protects the mind.

"Superman, even dazed, would have at least human level awareness rendering the issue moot."
Well then he wouldn't be dazed, and he would be able to attack and kill Ghost Rider.

Plan E
"Cables force shield should not hold against the mystic charged arrows now in Hawkeye's quiver, and the rats, and Dr. Doom and Hellfire"
Why not? It can hold against a nuclear explosion.
-Even if Cable lets some arrows through, he can easily dodge them with his superhuman reflexes.
-While still holding up the force shield, Cable can force Hawkeye to shoot all his arrows at fellow members of Team Sherlockmethod.
-Mind controlling Ghost Rider is unnecessary.
-Wolverine has claws of death and superhuman healing. I think he can handle a few rats.

========

Alternate Strategy

Onslaught can hit Hannibal, Hawkeye and Deadshot with blasts of psionic energy, knocking them out. This only leaves two opponents. Doom can be killed by a very fast Superman or WW, or he can be crushed by a large piece of metal by Onslaught, or he can be sliced up by Wolverine. Ghost Rider is outmatched by my team's fighters, and would quickly fall.

========

I have refuted my opponent's strategy at every step of the way. If even a single step breaks down, my faster and stronger team can take down Team Sherlockmethod. But more than just a single step as been broken: EVERY step has been rendered flawed and unusable.
Debate Round No. 2
sherlockmethod

Pro

I thank my opponent for his quick response
As disappointed as I am to present only rule interpretations and rebuttals in this round, I based two rounds of arguments off the premise that the Onslaught, as described by my opponent's sources, in this debate included Franklin Richards and X-Man. My premise is logical and I will defend it. Choosing Onslaught prior to this well known event was too important to not mention.

Cable:
Cable has teamed up with a lot of characters, Ghost Rider included. I do not see how this prevents his status as being above street level. Cable is too over powered to be considered on the same level as Batman, Nightwing, and even Wolverine. LM commented on street level several times, but the most significant is this at 187 quoting clockwork, thread below:
‘Important question: When you say "human level" in the street level character requirement, do you mean in terms of species or in terms of abilities? For example, would the Green Lantern (a human) still be considered a "street level" character, even though he very rarely fights other humans/earthlings?'

Abilities. Also, I wouldn't consider Green Lantern to be street level."

Abilities do matter and Cable is too powerful to considered street level. I listed many of his powers and the fact that he has fought along the side of street level characters does not negate his near limitless power. As a matter of fact, the limits to Cable's powers are unknown. (see opponent's source) If Cable is street level, then my entire team is street level.

The summation of Con's position concerning Onslaught appears to be that Onslaught is not a collective and if he is then collectives are not against the "official" rules:
The official rules were listed AFTER our teams were formed. In the thread prior to the round match ups, I asked some very specific questions. Only two are relevant to this debate. I asked if the city had rats and whether collectives were allowed. (Comment: Sherlockmethod; post 166 http://www.debate.org... )

From MTGandP (comment 182 above thread) "Yes to rats, no to collectives." Et tu brute?

From LogicalMaster (comment 189 above thread) "No collectives count as one person.
Though I may allow you to submit such a team, provided you're prepared to argue that your team abides by the rules as I'm sure others would make the same objection."

I am making that objection. Judges, collectives violate the team guidelines because collectives add members above the 5 member limit. In addition, Onslaught, per my opponent's sources fits the bill for a collective as he is a combination of Professor X, Magneto, Franklin Richards, and X-Man.

Onslaught:
"[A] sentient combination of the psyches of Professor X and Magneto." (listed as opponent's source 4; http://marvel.com...
My opponent's second and third sources (listed as 5 and 6) are not official pages and do not provide full info as they are collections from around the net and the listings are purposefully shortened, but each board lists Onslaught as a combination of Prof X and Magneto and the power rating listed for Onslaught putting him at 12 must include the augmenting powers of FR and X-Man. I just don't see a way around it.

Con's Onslaught is the one prior to Franklin and X-Man:

Even if this is so, the creature is still a collective of Prof X and Magneto. This point aside, how could I possibly have known this? The powers my opponent listed are extrapolated from these four super powered characters and I do not see a way of taking two people out and claiming the same level of telepathy, strength, psychic abilities, etc. I based two rounds of arguments on the premise that Onslaught was this combination and the official source my opponent used verifies this premise. I find nothing unreasonable about concluding such facts considering the source material. My opponent's use of Onslaught in other debates is not relevant to this one. If Onslaught did not include these two, Con should have made the point clear as Franklin provides a necessary weakness in the creature, one I attempted to fully exploit. The powers for Franklin and X-Man are not specifically listed in the fan boards as they are overshadowed by X and Magneto, but are listed in the Marvel Official Page and the fan boards do list the events of Onslaught describing the acquisition of FR and X-Man. I do not see how to separate them and maintain the same level of power. I could not change Ghost Rider from Ketch to Blaze to Vengeance so I made clear the one I was using; Con did not. This fact is too important as it changes Onslaught's level of power. Every source I am seeing includes this event in Onslaught's description.

Even removing FR and X-Man, I am still dealing with an illegal team.

Rebuttals:
Concerning Onslaught's danger my opponent states:
"There is no danger. Onslaught is absolutely loyal to me (UTW rule 6), and Superman knows it."
The danger is in the fact that Franklin is part of Onslaught, and loyalty is not the problem, Franklin's inability to create the saving dimensional rift is the issue that makes Onslaught a danger to Superman's friends.

Rebuttals:
Con tells us Onslaught could mind control Superman making him attack and that Doom's shield could not hold. I fully stated the force shield would collapse if attacked heavily as Doom is not strong enough in the arcane to hold off two beings like Superman and WW, but the shield would slow both down and should hold against Cable until the Hellfire is put up. The shield serves its purpose here, slow them down. Doom is not a shmuck and his magic would hardly make "a little force shield". He has vied for the title of Sorcerer Supreme and made some close runs on it; he can perform the necessary actions for a force shield in this case so as to slow a speed blitz.

In addition, my opponent feels that hellfire would not harm his team members, and again tells us Supes and WW are on a completely different level than Ghost Rider. WW and Superman would give pause when consumed by hellfire, which is all I need. WW's bracers are not sufficient to prevent the mystical fire surrounding her. Hellfire is dangerous business and both of these toons do not deal well with arcane powers. Would it kill either? No, probably not, but I just need to slow them down and distract them. Hellfire can perform this function. The force shields are interesting as Cable and Onslaught do not appear to have much in the way of mystical resistance, I do not think the force shield would do well here.

I did not commit a logic fallacy concerning the rats, if the rats are gone then so are all others as Doom would have been the only one who lived and was not incapacitated in that scenario.

The Penance Stare:
This ability is similar to hell fire in damage. The stare does affect emotions but is more along the lines of burning images into one's soul. The psionic shield does not affect this.

Wonder Women's disorientation:
In the scenario I presented, Doom occupied her body (really no way to write that without sounding dirty) which causes the disorientation, not the equipment loss.

Superman disoriented during the Penance Stare:
If Supes is disoriented he still has good sight, maybe super human good, but Ghost Rider has stood toe to toe with some very strong demons and villains. In the state I listed, he can administer the stare. He could probably not subdue SM if both are in top form, but the effects of the hellfire or WW's punch would give the Rider the opening he needs.
MTGandP

Con

Cable
My opponent has quoted a comment by LM in an attempt to show that Cable is not street level. However, on the official rule listing (posted after everyone had submitted their team) (http://www.debate.org...) it states that street level characters are "people who spend their time dealing with local adversaries AND/OR are essentially on a human level." Seeing as how this is on the most updated version of the official rules, it is the version that we will be relying upon.

Onslaught
I did say no to collectives. However, Onslaught is not a collective. As I have already stated, Onslaught only contains the fusion of Magneto and Prof. X. One body, one mind, one being. Not a collective. I am using the incarnation from before Franklin and X-Man were absorbed, as seen in (http://www.debate.org...). Additionally, Onslaught has no potential to even resemble two distinct people. He can only be in one place and think about one thing at a time.

The source I am using may put him at a power level of 12, but that is irrelevant. Onslaught is a combination of only two people. Why? Because I said so. I get to choose the canon, so-to-speak (it's not exactly a canon as much as it is an incarnation, but similar idea).

The powers I listed are only from Prof. X and Magneto. Prof. X has a wide variety of psionic abilities, which were all transfered to Onslaught. Onslaught's strength is his own.

"If Onslaught did not include these two, Con should have made the point clear as Franklin provides a necessary weakness in the creature, one I attempted to fully exploit."
I had made it clear by round two. That leaves plenty of time for my opponent to adjust his strategy.

"I do not see how to separate [Franklin and X-Man] and maintain the same level of power."
All of the things that Onslaught has done in my strategies could have been done by Prof. X.

========

"The danger is in the fact that Franklin is part of Onslaught, and loyalty is not the problem, Franklin's inability to create the saving dimensional rift is the issue that makes Onslaught a danger to Superman's friends."
First, Franklin is not a part of Onslaught. I have made that clear. Second, my team does not care about their own safety beyond the UTW. Their goal is to kill Team Sherlockmethod, and that takes top priority.

How quickly can Ghost Rider put up a Hellfire? He essentially has human reflexes, which can react within about a fifth of a second (http://www.humanbenchmark.com...). Maybe Ghost Rider can react within one twentieth of a second, but he's still essentially on human level when compared to the likes of Wonder Woman. WW and Superman are not. I see no measures of how strong Doom's forcefield is, but Superman is strong enough to move the Earth, and WW is almost as strong. With their extreme strength, WW and/or Superman could break the forcefield with a single punch. With their extreme speed, this would only take about 1/10^13 seconds**, FAR faster than Ghost Rider can react to.

My opponent's rebuttals are rather limited. But as he said, much is relying on whether Onslaught is legal. Or is it? Superman and WW can break Doom's forcefield faster than anyone can react to; after that, killing the others is easy. Or perhaps Superman can break Doom's forcefield while Wonder Woman is killing the rest of Team Sherlockmethod, or vice versa. Either way, it's over before Team Sherlockmethod can blink.

**Superman can fly between star systems in a matter of minutes (http://en.wikipedia.org...). I then calculated the time it would take to fly across NYC. My estimate (erring on the slow side) is 1/10^13 seconds. He can probably throw a punch in more like 1/10^20 seconds.
Debate Round No. 3
sherlockmethod

Pro

I thank my opponent for the debate and look forward to the judge's decision.

Conclusion:

I did not want to debate rules, really, but review of my opponent's team necessitated the move. I really enjoyed figuring out how to best some of the strongest characters in DC and Marvel comics, but I also expect adherence to rules. When this tournament started, LM went to great lengths to ensure teams had balance and that balance was the prospect of street level characters, no collectives and a list of banned entities. My opponent was involved in these threads, and picked his team while ignoring the ability limitation on street level status. The final rules, as he agreed, were not brought forward until the teams were picked. How, judges, can those rules only apply to discussion and team selection that took place prior to their enactment? I say again, the limits on street level came from LM on the one thread discussing this tournament. I followed those guidelines; my opponent is aware of the discussions but simply dismisses them.

My opponent presented an illegal team for this tournament (summary):
Cable is not a street level character. As much as I wanted to say Cable could not withstand a nuclear blast, could not mind control multiple targets from very long distances, track bullets, fight the Silver Surfer while levitating a city, I could not as he appears to be capable of such feats. Cable's powers are presented without many limitations allowing him to be placed in a variety of storylines. Cable has teamed up with more characters than I can list; some are street level, some are not, but his powers put him far above what street level is intended to mean in this tournament. All the teams were picked before the last rule list emerged and Con did not follow the guidelines.

Onslaught:
Onslaught is not one mind he consists of four, two if my opponent's bait and switch is allowed, and can be separated. Read the series, that is what they try to do! He is the epitome of a collective. Instead of choosing Prof X or Magneto, he chose a being comprised of both in addition to two others.

Now, I was very surprised at MTGandP's last round. When I presented a creative plan to take down the powerful being, Onslaught, my opponent reveals that he is referencing a different Onslaught, ta-da! Instead of trying to compromise or at least apologize, he simply ignores the switch, and goes so far as to present that things are this way, "because he said so." What? I am sorry, but this type of revelation should have been made in the first round. I could not respond until round 3 and my entire first two rounds would be void. His sources revealed the series of events, his, not mine; he then flippantly explains I have time to adjust, no problem, right? If Con intended to use a different manifestation of Onslaught, he is required to present this up front, not provide sources contradicting it. I always take the time to examine my opponent's source material and I took careful note of the one official source he listed and made plans for that character. I am surprised MTGandP dismissed this so flippantly.

Once I exposed a weakness in relation to Franklin Richards, Con then changed the entity. His other debates using similar characters are simply not relevant to this tournament. If I had Magneto on my team and presented two rounds of arguments involving removal of Wolverine's skeleton, my opponent cannot then pipe up that he meant his Wolverine is from the timeframe when the adamantuim was gone. Why, because he said so. I declare shenanigans.

I have presented sufficient arguments to void team MTGandP, but I still put up a creative fight with superior debate against an illegal team.

The actual fight:
1.Con refused to let go of his bait and switch with Onslaught and would not acknowledge that Franklin was part of the collective. My second round scenario stands as Con cannot divorce himself from this team. He never addressed the issue with Franklin, so it stands if the judges do not allow the switch mid debate. New arguments in the last round will not suffice.
2.I played my characters to the fullest. Con's whole position rested on a speed blitz or a complete psychic takeover. My first strategy dealt with Doom's manipulation skills with Superman. Con simply dismissed such occurrences in comics as "mere plot devices". Judges, when we choose characters, we choose the whole character, not the parts we like. When Con was presented with the undesirable parts he simply dismissed them. I took my characters with their limitations and presented plans accounting for such matters. Con simply repeated that his team outclassed mine, was not on the same level, etc. My debate points were much more robust.
3.Con would not let go of the fact that Doom could hold a force shield long enough to withstand a blitz and presented some math to support his position. I ask Con to please present the constant "n" where n is the number representing the result of a Kryptonian, powered by the yellow sun, combined with a super powered female combined with a psychic attack on a shield made purely of arcane magic. I will accept the math when I see this constant as my math books do not present it. JUDGES: As I presented in this debate, Doom is a powerful master of the arcane arts, second only to Dr. Strange as humanoids go. I submit that he could create a shield to hold these attacks for more than one second. Con's response: no, Superman is on a different level. Not good enough.
4.Con's whole position was to dismiss my team as inferior and not the same class as his. In a way he is right, as my team is legal and his is not, but I did present a plausible scenario where team Sherlockmethod wins the day. Con's case: my team outclasses yours. Not good enough.

I urge a vote for Pro as I presented better arguments and followed the tournament rules all the while fighting an illegal team.
MTGandP

Con

Cable
According to the official rules, a street level character can be on human level OR can fight people on a local level. My opponent has not refuted this. There is nothing more I can say on the subject.

Onslaught
I specified about Onslaught in round 2: "the Onslaught that I am using does not contain those two." This is early enough to give my opponent time to respond. I agree that I should have specified Onslaught, but only because it caused confusion. "Because I said so" is a valid statement, since I decide the incarnation of the characters I am using. My opponent has not refuted my core point, which is that Onslaught is one body and one mind, therefore not a collective.

"I have presented sufficient arguments to void team MTGandP"
Whether Onslaught contains Franklin Richards, doesn't, or is even a legal character, and whether Cable is legal, is ultimately not relevant to the outcome of this debate.

The Fight
"1.Con refused to let go of his bait and switch with Onslaught and would not acknowledge that Franklin was part of the collective."
Even accepting my opponent's version of events, refutations still apply. I made refutations in round 3 which were not responded to.

"2.I played my characters to the fullest. Con's whole position rested on a speed blitz or a complete psychic takeover."
So my opponent wins the creativity contest. He deserves it. But that's not what this debate is about.

"My first strategy dealt with Doom's manipulation skills with Superman. Con simply dismissed such occurrences in comics as "mere plot devices"."
Actually, I offered three reasons why it wouldn't work. That is only one of them.

"Con simply repeated that his team outclassed mine, was not on the same level, etc."
I also demonstrated strategies by which my team would win.

"My debate points were much more robust."
Team Sherlockmethod wins creativity, but not the battle.

"I ask Con to please present the constant "n" where n is the number representing the result of a Kryptonian, powered by the yellow sun, combined with a super powered female combined with a psychic attack on a shield made purely of arcane magic."
How do I represent a result with a number?

"As I presented in this debate, Doom is a powerful master of the arcane arts, second only to Dr. Strange as humanoids go. I submit that he could create a shield to hold these attacks for more than one second."
Superman can push an earth-sized planet. Earth weighs about 10^24 pounds (that's a lot). My opponent has not quantitatively said how much Doom's forcefields can hold against, but I doubt that even Dr. Strange's forcefield could hold against a punch from Superman. If it somehow can hold, imagine thousands upon millions of punches thrown in less than a millisecond. Dr. Doom (and even Dr. Strange) is only a human, with human endurance. Maybe he has superhuman magic, but can his forcefields hold against punches that could move a planet? Even if Doom can somehow hold off Superman, it won't matter since Wonder Woman can kill everyone else while Superman is working on Dr. Doom. (Not a new strategy: see round 3 "Superman can break Doom's forcefield while Wonder Woman is killing the rest of Team Sherlockmethod")

"4.Con's whole position was to dismiss my team as inferior and not the same class as his."
What about all of my arguments? I did frequently say things about Superman's and Wonder Woman's extreme speed, and how Team Sherlockmethod wouldn't have time to react, but this is only a subset of my overall strategy.

"Con's case: my team outclasses yours. Not good enough."
Correct. And that is why I relied on actual arguments instead of straw men.

========

Conclusion
As I have demonstrated, my team will emerge victorious no matter whether Onslaught and Cable are legal. My victory in no way relies upon these possibly-illegal characters. But if they turn out to be legal after all, then so much the better.

Every single one of my arguments stand unrefuted. No matter your perspective, the clear winner is Team MTGandP. Remember, this debate is not about creativity: it is about war. Vote for Team MTGandP: the True Warrior's Team.

This has been a most enjoyable, if rather unorthodox, debate.
Debate Round No. 4
31 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by sherlockmethod 7 years ago
sherlockmethod
I would like to thank my opponent, both judges and LM. Thank you, all. Fun debate.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
The first one is from feverish. The second is from burningpuppies.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Conduct: PRO
S/G: TIE
Args: PRO
I vote PRO since I think that the Pro sufficiently answers the meta debate of Onslaught and how Cable is not street level. The NEG starts getting abusive in this 2NC since the AFF is right in saying that trying to change the definition of Onslaught and what he is in the middle of a round, or at least clarifying who he is, especially in a way that avoids all the refutation, is kind of sketchy.

In regards to the substantive argumentation: IT ALL BECAME A WASH BECAUSE NO ONE EXTENDED ANY WARRANTS! I ONLY VOTED OFF OF ONE THING IN THIS ROUND. I voted AFF off of the one argument that the AFF makes on the NEG case talking about how we need to look to every part of a character, not just the parts that make them look good. This is just about the only thing that I can vote on in this round since it seems to be the only turn on any arguments, and this is the only place where the AFF is able to make an argument that holds any water in the round

The AFF wins on a lot of the abuse arguments. He wins the Onslaught argument about how changing who he is to be someone contrary to the sources provided is wrong. In addition, he wins the argumentation about calling things plot devices to opt out of argumentation. If the NEG had actually answered these arguments substantively instead of just trying to change advocacies in the middle, that would have changed things. Insofar as the AFF is winning the abuse arguments, those come before everything else since winning them means that the NEG was being abusive in his arguments. That's the first reason I vote AFF, it's this abuse that could have been very easily avoided.

On top of that, the AFF wins the argumentation saying that Cable is not a street level character. NEG never proves why associating with street level characters, which you do quire well, makes you street level. Insofar as the AFF is winning this argumentation, that voids your team as it doesn't follow all the rules. That's the second r
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
CONDUCT: PRO. No actual bad conduct from MTG but this is for rule adherence. ............... From when I first saw Cable listed as street-level I thought this was wrong, although it simply didn't occur to me (duh) that Onslaught was a collective and I even tried to pick him for my team but was too slow. .......... It's a shame that LM didn't include the stuff we discussed in that thread when he re-posted the rules but hardly surprising when you consider the work he must have put in as organiser, financer and competitor........... I think it's fair to say the things agreed on in that thread should be stuck to........... Pro argued for the illegality of these characters very well and Con failed to convince me otherwise ...................................................................................
S&G: Tied .............................................................................................
ARGUMENTS: Tied. This was a tough one ( this is the fourth time I've voted in this tournament and they've all been difficult decisions ) but I'm not sure who the real winner of this battle is. ...................... Pro's arguments were more persuasive as he had more strategies, they were better thought through and he explained why they would work in much more detail. ......................... Con's handfull of strategies were pretty vague but even with the disqualification of Cable and Onslaught, Con still has a formidable team. ............ They probably should defeat team Pro but Con doesn't really explain how. To illustrate with just one example, Con says that because Supes can push a planet so can his punches but this doesn't really follow through. I can push my car (VW polo) a little way but don't think I'd move it with a punch, maybe dent it a little and hurt my hand. ............. I haven't been adequately convinced either side would win this battle. So, draw. .....................................................................................
Sources: One
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
Co-sign on the Doom love below. He very nearly made it on to my team for this tournament.

I have my own opinions on this debate but will not post them until official votes are in.
Posted by sherlockmethod 7 years ago
sherlockmethod
Nice,
I love Doom as a villain, but I linked the Doom I am using, my Doom ... the Doom of FF history, which I love, is not that powerful. Civil War was a hard time for me in Marvel as Reed Richards showed he was the very person Doom said him to be (Big FF fan here). And, outside of this debate, I believe Doom could pick up Thor's Hammer. He is a manipulative warrior, and a great foe. I loved when the FF beat him, but, even as a child, I knew he would be back ... he is Doom. I have a hobby room and the wall is bordered in comics; I have the first, second and fourth appearances of the Ghost Rider and 4 different FF issues of personal importance matted for my wall. I think Doom is fantastic, no matter how much I like to see him beat.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Interesting tidbit concerning Dr. Doom. I read this on another forum recently from someone who keeps up with the Fantastic Four comics.

"Anyone reading the just wrapped-up Millar's Masters of Doom storyline in Fantastic Four 556-559?

If you're a fan of Doctor Doom, you've gotta check it out.

While I thought it was fun story, the ending severely changes one of my favorite villains too much!

Serious spoilers ahead! I'm warning you, do not read unless you want the story to be spoiled.. Still reading? Here we go! The Marquis of Death, Doom's previously un-revealed master (taught Vic everything he knows) who wields vast super-mega-cosmic scale reality warping powers, sends Doom to the Pliocene Era (that's millions of years ago, kids) to be eaten by giant sharks as punishment for Doom's failure in being a mega super villain. Doom survives, spends millions of years developing his dark art magical powers, changes his form, and eventually seeks out the Marquis of Death, who unwittingly takes He-Who-Used-To-Be-Doom as his Appentice. HWUTBD spends 100s of years under the tutelage of the Marquis of Death, as they transverse multiple realities and destroy thousands of worlds. Earth 616's FF eventually defeat the Marquis of Death, and his Apprentice reveals himself as Doom and seemingly kills his former master. Then Doom goes back to rule Latveria, challenging the FF to drop by!

Doom is now, as he puts it, "an infinitely superior being," not the Doom we all know and love. Or is he? After millions of years developing his magical skills + training by an mega-level bad @ss, all he seems to want to do is rule Latveria. I would think after all his millions of years and the defeat of his master, Doom would be beyond earthly wants, needs, or limits..which, for me, would reduce Doom to an unsympathetic character."

I don't know enough about what Doom can currently do, but as long as you're using any version before this seemingly omnipotent Doom, you should be fine, sherl
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
Well now that someone voted, I guess I'll vote.

Conduct: Pro - I should not have tried to change the definition of Onslaught. It was my own fault for not remembering it initially.
S&G: Tie.
Arguments: Con - Maikuru makes a fair point about Superman's weakness against magic, but Pro never brought it up so he never really refuted Superman's ability to quickly break a shield. (It's funny how the whole debate comes down to just that!)
S&G: Tie - I agree with Maikuru that this was just too close for sources to be given.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Excellent debate guys. I'd vote, but don't feel I've read this debate closely enough to make a decision.
Posted by sherlockmethod 7 years ago
sherlockmethod
Thank you for the RFD, I do not vote on my debates so I will not add my RFD. This is a policy I put on myself so my opponent can certainly RFD and vote and I have no problem with it. This was a tough team, very tough.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by wonderwoman 7 years ago
wonderwoman
sherlockmethodMTGandPTied
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Vote Placed by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
sherlockmethodMTGandPTied
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Vote Placed by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
sherlockmethodMTGandPTied
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