The Instigator
Yraelz
Pro (for)
Winning
11 Points
The Contender
feverish
Con (against)
Losing
10 Points

LM Classic: Yraelz vs. feverish

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/30/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,151 times Debate No: 10612
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (32)
Votes (4)

 

Yraelz

Pro

Sorry for the much belated debate Feverish, here goes.

My team:
1. Sentry
2. Sephiroth
3. Ichigo Kurasaki
4. Black Alice
5. Emma Frost

Chances are, my opponents team is something like: Monkey, Boba Fett, Predator, Iron Man and Count Dracula.

So I'll start with Monkey. Straight up, he's a god. The limitation against using gods has been put into place in order to avoid characters without limits. Monkey himself has rejected the title of god, that being said, he's joined heaven, and been granted the title of god, on two separate occasions. He rejected the title, not because he wasn't a god, but rather because he didn't like how he was treated in heaven. Furthermore it should be noted that he has single handedly beaten all of the gods of heaven. He's a god....

That being said, maybe I can still beat him......

The strategy:

+++++++++++++++
Negative one Second
+++++++++++++++
Sentry's molecules move a second ahead of the normal time line. This allows him to react a moment earlier than everyone else. Thus Sentry fills the entirety of New York city, except for the immediate vicinity of team Pro, with blinding monstrous light. It should be noted that this stops team Con from seeing, but Sentry can create hard light constructs. This means that the lights acts as an impenetrable barrier which literally bind anyone inside of it.

Secondly, Sentry quickly wipes the minds of everyone on Team Con. Not only does he know where they are, note the fact that he can hear a butterflies heartbeat in Africa, but he has also erased the memory of the entire human population before. The only person to escape the erasure was the Hulk. Which means Tony Stark, with his Psi shield and all, did not escape the mind wipe. It should additionally noted that this mind wipe was so powerful that even when Sentry attempted to refresh the memory of his best friend, Reed Richards, a genius, he was unable to do so.

Finally, using hard light constructs, Sentry will impale/disembody all the characters on Team Con. Can Sentry's hard light constructs do this? Early in Sentry's life, before he understood what the void was he believed it was created out of others knowledge of himself. This is the reason he mind wiped the entire earth, so that they would forget about him. This wasn't true. The void, as Sentry later figured out, was simply a creation of his own mind which he transferred into a real hard light construct. This real hard light construct, the void, managed to kill over 1 million people. Including multiple super heroes. http://marvel.wikia.com...

Results: Ultimately team Con is unable to move, cannot see, has been mind wiped, and finally impaled. Sentry's ability to move slightly faster than light allows him to do all of this. Unless Feverish can prove his team quicker, they stand no chance.

Also, the combination of Dracula being slammed with the brightest light he's ever experienced and then impaled/dismembered should be more than enough to kill him.

++++++++++++++++++++++++
A few Pico-Seconds into the battle
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ichigo and Sephiroth, being supremely fast beings, enter awareness inside of a dark space surrounded by hard light.

Ichigo converts to soul form. This means he's invisible to anyone not attune to seeing souls. He then shoots into Bankai and dons his hollow mask. With these massive powers intact, Ichigo raises his spiritual pressure to near it's peak. This makes it nearly impossible for anyone in New York to move as they will be pressured to the ground. Or at the very least, slows their movement. Meanwhile Ichigo can continue moving slightly faster than light.

Sephiroth on the other hand simply casts reflect on everyone except himself. Reflect reverses negative magical effects after the original casting. Sephiroth also defends Black Alice.

Meanwhile, Sentry constructs some hard light constructs that look like Team Pro all around Team Con.

++++++++++
Two Seconds
++++++++++
Drained of almost all of their energy because of Ichigo's spiritual pressure, Black Alice and Emma Frost become aware.

Emma seeks out Dracula's mind, which is probably wiped anyways, in order to combat any threat there. She is as powerful as people such as Dr. Xaviar.

Black Alice turns to Sephiroth and sucks his powers out. This leaves Black Alice standing, with some effort, while Sephiroth now without powers, is probably forced to the ground via spiritual pressure.

+++++++++++
Three Seconds
+++++++++++
Sentry bends all light reflecting off of The Monkey King. Bends that light straight to Black Alice's eyes. All Black Alice has to do to absorb someone's powers is see them. Black Alice mercilessly takes all of The Monkey Kings powers.

Keep in mind the Monkey King is right now mind wiped, unable to see anything, bound by hard light constructs, and being pressured to the ground by Ichigo. All four of these things make it doubtful that he would get to Black Alice before Black Alice took his powers around 3 seconds into this battle. But even if he did make it, near Black Alice, he would be met with an onslaught from both Ichigo and Sentry. One of which the Monkey cannot even see. These two would be able to stop Monkey for the fraction of a second that Black Alice needed to take him.

With these powers Black Alice just rips out all of her hair and they turn into clones of herself. (This is one of Monkey's many powers.)

Result: The Monkey King becomes a normal monkey with no supernatural powers.

++++++++++
Four Seconds
++++++++++
Ichigo allows his spiritual pressure to subside. Sentry tunes down the light within New York city to a seeable level (notice, it'll still be awfully bright). However he keeps all five opposing characters bound in hard light constructs with greatly intensified light right on their eyes.

Black Alice (now possessing Monkey and Sephiroths speed), Ichigo, and Sentry appear in front of Monkey, instantly killing him. Black Alice then lets go of Sephiroth's powers to embrace the powers of Dracula. She then let's go of Monkey's powers to embrace those of Iron Man. Which, now that we are here is kind of comical. See, Black Alice can only possess the abilities of two people, and only their abilities proper. Which means she'd never be able to possess Iron Man, except for the fact that my opponent is using Iron Man "shortly before the 'Secret Invasion' events" which makes his armor a part of himself. Lol!

Anyways, this pits a super powered Black Alice, Sephiroth, Ichigo (still invisible), and Sentry against a powerless Iron Man, powerless Dracula (I mean, the light probably has him powerless anyways), Predator and Boba Fett (who are blind and bound). At this point Black Alice will probably start complaining about the fact that she's not very powerful when it's light out and thus Sentry will divert light so that it flows around her and never touches her. Keeping in mind that many of my characters are armed with light speed, swords, and Sentry has rays of light powerful enough to hurt the Hulk who has withstood Super Novas, I think that my opponents characters are slaughtered.

As far as slave 1 goes and the Alien mother ship go. I don't think that my opponent really gets either of these things under the rules of this battle. Pretty sure the rules are for five character. Not five plus two ships with character like abilities (firing cannons etc...). However, that being said. The ships will equally be bound and unable to locate anything through light brighter than the sun. Furthermore, upon regaining his power, Sephiroth can feel free to blast a super nova through each ship. Kind of devastating for them.

++++++++++
Final Thoughts
++++++++++
Obviously in my scenario my opponents team is killed many times over starting when they are cut to pieces by hard light constructs. Other scenarios are presented should they survive.
feverish

Con

Thanks Yraelz.

The build up has indeed been long and drawn out but the day of reckoning is now here and the semi-finals are upon us. It is a good day for an Ultimate Team War in indestructible New York.

For anyone clueless as to what is going on in this debate, information can be found here: http://ddofans.com...

Yraelz is correct about my team selection which is the same as in my other battles in this competition, for descriptions and sources on my characters, see this debate: http://www.debate.org...

________________

My opponent suggests on several occasions that my team selection breaks the rules. It is clear to me that he is merely trying to deflect attention and get in first with a rule-breaking accusation because he is well aware that his complete disregard for the street-level category is a rule violation of epic proportions.

The point of this rule is to create a balance within teams of very powerful characters and those with more basic human level abilities rather than super-powers. Pro's team is ridiculously over powered in this respect with all his characters having powers well beyond the street-level category.

In the comments section of this debate, Yraelz actually urges me to break this rule as well, stating: "feel free to take whatever character you want. I don't even really care if it's a street level character. Or at least I won't bother arguing the point." As he has already proved himself willing to argue the toss over other supposed rule violations, what possible motivation could there be for this other than his acceptance that he has himself ignored this rule?

Black Alice has the ability to not only absorb the powers of others but also to strip her subject of the powers themselves. This puts her on a level above even Amazo (who can only absorb powers) and makes her way beyond street-level.

Emma Frost is one of the most powerful psychics in the Marvel Universe and also has the ability to go diamond form and be virtually indestructible. Not street-level.

It should be noted that my opponent's original line-up included Vash, a character specified as an example of street-level when the rule was first explained by LM. Yraelz's inclusion of both Emma Frost and Black Alice alongside the verified street-level Vash, indicates that initially he did not regard at least one of them as street-level.

I regard Black Alice and Emma Frost as disqualified from this battle.

_________

Monkey is no god, this is a simple misunderstanding. Sun Wukong is a super powered stone monkey who *attempted* to become a god. At one point he was awarded a token position in heaven as stable-cleaner to the gods but any accurate analysis of Chinese mythology makes a clear distinction between gods and heroes. See here: http://docs.google.com... Monkey is listed as a hero rather than a god. He is also not listed in most pantheons of Chinese gods. http://www.lowchensaustralia.com... http://www.crystalinks.com...

In any case, it was made clear that the "god" restriction was to outlaw omnipotence on the level of a Dr. Manhattan type character, not a semantic categorisation. If we are talking omnipotence then the limits to Monkey's powers are very clearly defined (often to a precise measurement) and Sentry is far more omnipotent; see: "Robert "Bob" Reynolds is said to have the power of 10 million exploding suns. And his power is not limited to any one capability, nor to only his concious mind. His powers are also said to be virtually limitless.." on his wiki linked in comments.

Predator and Fett's ships are part of their standard equipment in the same way as Sephiroth's sword or Ironman's armour. They are not separate entities in any way, merely machines that respond to specific instructions. Without their ships how could they have arrived at the battlefield?

__________

"Sentry's molecules move a second ahead of the normal time line. This allows him to react a moment earlier than everyone else."

While Sentry may be capable of this it clearly violates the rules, he is not allowed to act before the battle starts, nor allowed to time travel to before the start of the battle.

"blinding monstrous light. It should be noted that this stops team Con from seeing"

I'm afraid not. Monkey can see through what others can not, three of my characters have sophisticated visual equipment in their helmets which can easily filter light and use heat-based vision and Dracula has an aversion only to natural sunlight, not artificial lighting. Also in his mist form he has no eyes to be blinded.

I think this strategy will backfire badly on my opponent as rather than blinding and imprisoning my team, he has actually hidden them from his own team, providing them with a shield of light they can see out of but his team can't see into.

"Sentry quickly wipes the minds of everyone on Team Con.. he has also erased the memory of the entire human population before."

When Sentry did this, he also wiped his own memory. It was a one-off and not a power he can target and control at will. It is not even listed as one of his powers on wiki http://en.wikipedia.org...

Incidentally, as for Tony not being immune, the simple explanation would be that he was probably not suited up and using his psi-shield at the time.

"Not only does he know where they are, note the fact that he can hear a butterflies heartbeat in Africa"

Being able to hear something is not at all the same as being able to pinpoint its exact location.

It is important to remember with Sentry that one of the main attractions of the character is that despite his extraordinary powers he is still just a regular guy. Yes he can fly in a straight line, faster than the speed of light and react to dodge a bullet but his thought process and decision making is still on a level with the average guy and the idea that he could pull off all these different processes which require extreme concentration, quickly and easily is pretty preposterous.

My non-blinded non-mind-wiped team will have plenty of time to react before the proposed impalement and just because Sentry can hear them doesn't mean he can find them, especially considering the blinding light he created around them. How can he see?

___

Another thing to remember about Sentry is his vulnerability to mind control. As soon as Sentry rushes in, Dracula will simply assume control of him.

Meanwhile Monkey gets to chest hair ripping. I'd say I've got a fairly averagely haired chest and I can grip at least thirty hairs at a time easily. I would assume at least ten of these (note the conservative estimates) would come loose if I were to tug fiercely. So ten extra Monkeys.

"enter awareness inside of a dark space surrounded by hard light."
"He then shoots into Bankai and dons his hollow mask. With these massive powers intact, Ichigo raises his spiritual pressure to near it's peak."

Forgive my ignorance but I don't understand any of this stuff. Could you please explain?

Astonishingly, I am already nearly out of letters, apologies for leaving some issues unaddressed. I'll have to figure out how to respond to the "spiritual pressure" thing once my opponent has explained exactly what it is.

Tony, Pred and Fett will spend the first second analysing the landscape and locating Sephiroth and Ichigo.

_____

So, one second in to the battle.

Seph and Ichi now face Sentry (controlled by Drac), 11 Monkey kings, Dracula himself, Boba Fett, Predator and Ironman. Plus the rats are starting to creep out of the sewers as Slave 1 hovers overhead.

Over to my opponent.

Thanks.
Con.
Debate Round No. 1
Yraelz

Pro

Starting with Monkey:
==============
Look to the wiki source my opponent offers on Monkey. He has singlehandedly beaten the army of heavens 100,000 celestial warriors. That's a few more than those on my team. He can transfer the 84,000 hairs on his body into exact clones of himself. His staff can also multiply itself at will and fight for itself. Furthermore what my opponent says is true. The first time around when the Monkey King was promoted to a stable manager he was no god. However the second time around, after he beat heavens armies he became a god, notice:

" they tried again to put him off as the guardian of Heavenly Garden. When he found that he was excluded from a royal banquet that included every other important god and goddess,"

Notice, every OTHER important god and goddess except himself.

Furthermore heaven was forced to recognize his title as "Great Sage, Equal of Heaven" when they could not destroy him.

Finally it should be noted he now possesses "Xi Wangmu's "peaches of immortality", Lao Tzu's "pills of longevity"".

He's a god. http://www.godchecker.com...

Street level characters
==============
The first problem with my opponents strategy on this contention is the fact that he was equally capable coming into this debate round. Not only did Logical Master approve of my original set up: Emma Frost, Black Alice, Vash, Sephiroth, and Sentry but furthermore I allowed my opponent the usage of any character. I even promised I wouldn't make any absurd "your characters aren't street level" arguments. Thus I believe his arguments to be tantamount of handicapping himself and then complaining about it. He had an equally opportunity, he's the one forfeiting it.

However, if my opponent wishes to continue with this line of argumentation I'll concede Emma Frost to him. This still allows me a blank spot for a non-existant ground level character who was once Vash, and Black Alice. And yes, Black Alice is a ground level character. Not only does she not have a great grasp on her powers but she's also massively impulsive. Furthermore she spends 99% of her time fighting thugs in her home city of Daytona. She fights off super villians like the green goblin less often than spider man and significantly less than batman. Finally she has no super power, nor strength; ultimately no notable power of her own. Black Alice is ground level in practice and nature.

Negative one Second
=============
Feverish misunderstands my argument. I'm saying that Sentry's particles move a second ahead of the normal timeline. This means that he reaches any given moment in time on second quicker than everyone else. Thus, Sentry reaches the moment the round starts one second before everyone else. Allowing him to react before anyone else can. Or rather, he was now one second before anyone else was.

However, even if I lost this argument it would only delay Sentry one moment. And, no, this plan will not backfire.

First Sentry spreads SUNLIGHT all over New York city at an intensity which blinds all of Con's team. Yes sunlight, notice his power comes from that of one million suns; thus he controls sunlight. This means Dracula is pwned. Further though, team Con's heat seeking machinery will not be able to see through this. Sunlight (and light in general) is energy. This is why it gets warm on a sunny day. However, a day so bright that it's impossible to see would superheat everything, and if the city wasn't indestructible, would probably set it on fire. Perhaps similar to what Sentry once did to New York City:

http://i118.photobucket.com...
http://i118.photobucket.com...
http://i118.photobucket.com...

Thus Team Con will not be able to see through this light. Light = Energy = Massive Heat. Furthermore Monkey cannot see through everything. I challenge my opponent to present this evidence. Not only has he been tricked by Bhudda but blinding light would literally force him to see too much that he wouldn't be able to take other things in.

However, even if my judges don't feel like buying these arguments, my opponent has simply forgotten to respond to a major portion of my argumentation.

"This means that the lights acts as an impenetrable barrier which literally binds anyone inside of it."

In other words the light acts as a solid mass, completely binding anyone within it. And you can read all my analysis about the void from round 1 for why Sentry can do this.

Next, it should be noted that Sentry can indeed wipe their minds. Yes, my opponent is right that it was a one off ability to wipe everyone's mind in the entire world. In fact, he combined his powers with those of two other notable super hero's in order to do so. However, I'm only attempting to wipe the minds of five characters, there is no way that Sentry cannot do this after having helped wiped the minds of combined humanity. Furthermore he was able to implant his memories into the mind of Paul Jenkins.

Which means we finally get to the four arguments that my opponent is just not correct about:

First my opponent presumes that Sentry was able to wipe Tony's mind because he wasn't wearing his suit. Not only is this a presumption but it should be noted that Sentry was able to wipe minds such as Dr. Xaviar, and Emma Frost with little effort. Not to mention the hundreds of other strong psychics with immunities to such actions.

Second, Sentry IS NOT an average guy as my opponent attempts to portray him. In fact, his mind is so complicated that he literally holds his human form together, every molecule of it, with his mind. http://marvel.wikia.com...(Earth-616) Furthermore he is considered a genius. Read the "Genius Level Intellect" and "Vast Psionic Powers" portions of his profile.

Third, my opponent hypothesis that Sentry cannot pinpoint somethings location. I would tell you this isn't true. As being able to even tell that a butterfly was existing in Africa would mean that Sentry could tell the correct distance from himself as well as the correct latitude. Furthermore he was hearing it's heartbeat which would be quite a bit more quite than my opponents team. This means he can tell direction, and accurate distance from himself through his superb hearing.

And fourth, feverish articules that Sentry is susceptible for mental manipulation. This is true! My sources all even say that! However my opponent should read deeper:

"However, it has been displayed multiple times that he is susceptible to mental manipulation: by the Void."

Why is this true? The void, as Sentry has recently discovered, is an alternative personality which he created for himself. In other words, Sentry is succeptible to mental manipulation from himself. Never once has Sentry been overcome from an external mental force.

Sephiroth and Ichigo:
=============
As already established by my sources Sephiroth can move the speed of light.

Furthemore so can Ichigo, notice in my first video how he appears in multiple places at the same time. This means he's arriving at point B before light can leave point A and get to the viewers eyes. (4:50 - 5:10).

Furthermore Ichigo is completely invisible in soul form as noted by my second video (first minute).

Finally, vast spiritual pressure literally crushes people to the ground, as noted by my third video (35 seconds in).

#

In conclusion, Sentry freezes, blinds, and mindwipes team pro within the first second. He then impales them if they haven't died from energy. Black Alice steals monkeys powers and the battle progresses as before. Team con doesn't have the speed to attack me. Thanks!
feverish

Con

Thanks again, I had almost forgotten how enjoyable these kind of debates were.

Monkey.

I hope that readers and judges do take the time to read Monkey's wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org... rather than just taking my opponent's carefully quote mined extract at face value. The story makes it clear that the titles he was temporarily rewarded with in heaven were intended merely to "put him off". Monkey wanted to become a god but despite his best efforts, the heavenly host never accepted him amongst their ranks, giving him meaningless posts (stable hand and gardener) that he was quick to reject.

Stealing the property of gods and beating them up does not make one a god. Yraelz provides a link to the godchecker site, described on Monkey's wiki page as "tongue-in-cheek". This is a humorous site and not a reliable source. I have already provided a link to a serious mythological site that clearly lists Monkey as a hero and not a god, in the same way as in Greek mythology characters like Perseus and Theseus were heroes, not gods. http://docs.google.com...

It should also be noted that while "all known methods of execution" have failed against Monkey, he is not invincible. He has been successfully subdued and contained twice; once for 49 years and once for 500.
__________

Street Level.

Yraelz suggests that his non-street level characters should be permitted simply because he invited me to also break this rule. I don't see how sticking with a team that I have researched thoroughly and done well with up till now can be described as "handicapping" myself. Yes I had an "equal opportunity" to break this rule but I chose to follow the tournament guidelines instead.

Please note that it is my opponent who began this debate by challenging the legality of one of my characters.

He admits his deception in claiming Emma as street-level when he clearly didn't regard her as such in his first debate but continues to insist that Black Alice is street level.

"she has no super power, nor strength; ultimately no notable power of her own."

Her power is that she can rob two full strength characters of all their powers, leaving them powerless and become far stronger than either. This is exactly how Yraelz is attempting to use her in this battle and it makes her twice as powerful as anyone on my team, clearly not street level.
_________

Negative one Second.

I thank Yraelz for clarifying exactly which rule he is attempting to break here: "Sentry reaches the moment the round starts one second before everyone else."

It is clear that to reach something one must be travelling towards it. For Sentry to reach a point in time ahead of the normal time line, he must be travelling through time which clearly contravenes rule 13. http://ddofans.com...
__________

Sentry.

At no point in my opponent's opening round did he mention sunlight. On the contrary, he specified hard light constructs and sunlight is certainly not solid.

Regarding my team's sensory technology; Yraelz suggests that heat based vision may be impaired but with heat gradation, unless his team are exactly the same temperature as their environment they will still be visible to my team. He has ignored the point about basic light filtering and there are a range of other vision modes such as bio and motion sensing available to all of my armoured characters (see wiki sources).

Regarding Monkey's eyesight, "Instead of killing him, the fire and smoke added to the monkey a pair of firy golden crystal eyes that can see through what people normally can not." http://www.china-on-site.com... Monkey's vision is vulnerable to smoke but he can see through darkness, light, solid objects and trickery.

Dracula has no eyes in mist form, none of my team are blinded.

Sentry's mindwipe powers are being hideously misrepresented by Pro. This is a power Sentry used completely involuntarily, on just one occasion, with a lot of help. It did not erase all memories, merely memories regarding the Sentry himself, it was imperfect and it also affected the Sentry. There is no occasion of Sentry performing a targeted mindwipe on any individual and the occasion when he implanted false memories was also a complete one-off.

http://img442.imageshack.us...
"Not only will he NEVER remember the Sentry, but HE'LL make it so NO ONE remembers the Sentry. And he won't even know he's doing it."

Pro: "being able to even tell that a butterfly was existing in Africa would mean that Sentry could tell the correct distance from himself as well as the correct latitude."

It should be noted that the Wiki describes this feat as a "claim" rather than a fact. http://en.wikipedia.org... It should also be noted while viewing this page that there is indeed a full stop after the sentence: "His main weakness may be that he's been shown as susceptible to mental manipulation." This is contrary to my opponent's false assertion that this refers only to the void.

"Never once has Sentry been overcome from an external mental force."

This is simply not true. The Sentry is frequently shown to be mentally fragile. Emma Frost once performed what is described on comic book forums as a "mind rape" on him, Dr Doom was once able to incapacitate him with a simple mind spell, Tony confused him by bombarding him with radio messages and he often breaks down and cries under stress. His mind would be easy prey for magical manipulation from Dracs.

http://i47.tinypic.com... http://media.photobucket.com... http://media.photobucket.com... http://www.google.co.uk...
_______

As entertaining as my opponent's videos are, they don't provide much of an explanation as to how these Bleach powers would operate within real world physics. I would like a description of the "spiritual pressure" power in text form, so that I can effectively counter it. It is not clear to me that any of my characters possess a "spirit" in the implied sense.

Invisibility also isn't much of a problem to my team for reasons mentioned above so their speed is the only edge that Ichi and Seph have. Fortunately Drac now controls Sentry, whose molecules can move faster than either of them. My eleven monkey kings and Ironman are also no slouches in the speed department.

Predator is also equipped with his point defense system http://en.wikipedia.org... a plasma laser that targets incoming projectiles such as samurai. He is also like Ichi, virtually invisible thanks to his cloaking device.

_______

Once Sentry has deactivated his hard light constructs he can turn his attention to his former team mates and the rest of my guys can also unleash on them.

Yes Seph and Ichi are fast but they will be hugely outnumbered and outclassed, especially against Sentry and multiple monkeys, if at any point things start to get hairy (no pun) then any of my monkeys can begin the cloning process again.

Even if we were to permit Black Alice in this battle, she can't drain the powers of more than two of my monkeys and would be defeated based on the simple equation that 2m<11m where m=monkey king. Alice would also not be able to clone herself in the same way because women generally don't have chest hair and she adopts the powers rather than the physical traits of her victims.

It seems to me that the "spiritual pressure" tactic is Pro's only real chance of success in this battle and I eagerly await an explanation of how it works.

Thanks.
Con.
Debate Round No. 2
Yraelz

Pro

Monkey
=====

My opponent and I appear to disagree on whether someone should be disqualified in name or in powers. My argument is that the monkey should be disqualified because his powers forced the heavens to accept his title as, "Great Sage, Equal of Heaven". Yet my opponent believes, as his title is not that of a god, he should not have to be disqualified.

Unfortunately my opponent also appears to believe that Black Alice, who in name is a street level character, should be disqualified because of her powers. I would suggest to the judges that he cannot have it both ways. Either Black Alice and Monkey both go or stay.

My opponent does nothing to address any of my arguments against Monkey's substantial powers.

Street Level
========
Feverish does nothing to address my argument regarding Black Alice fighting super humans left often than even Peter Parker. This contention clearly demonstrates that Black Alice is indeed a street level character.

Furthermore though I think my arguments about fairness still stand. My opponent was given equal opportunity to compete on any non-god level with me, however he chose not to. I think this shows that my opponent did not believe in having a fair debate in the first place but rather was just attempting to grab an easy win.

Negative One Second
=============
In order to move through something one must transgress from one distinct point to another. However, Sentry's molecules are always one second ahead of the normal time line. This means that he never moves through time.... he's always at the same time. He's always one second ahead of the normal time line. There is no time traveling here.

Sentry
====
My opponent ignores the fact that all of Sentry's powers come from sunlight. He can create hard light constructs by concentrating so much light in a single area that it cannot be passed through. This is based on the fact that light simultaneously has the properties of waves and matter. This is simply terrible for Dracula because it means he quickly loses his powers. This also renders him ineffective in his quest to steal Sentry's mind. Also on this point, Dracula must be aware or able to see one's presence in order to use this power.....

Furthermore my opponent is still ignoring the fact that every member on his team is bound by the solid light constructs, meaning even if they could see they couldn't move. Furthermore they'd be impaled momentarily by the same constructs. But having said that I still don't think the heat graduation goggles would work. Condensed light too bright to see through would just flood everything close by with immense heat. This would mean the goggles would all just see the same color.

As far as Monkey goes the source never says he can see through light, or solid objects. It just says he can see through things which humans can't. Furthermore it's really not a matter of seeing in this instance, it's a matter of seeing too much. Monkey's eyes would simply be overwhelmed with immense light.

Yes, when Sentry said he could hear a butterfly in Africa that was a claim. As such is every argument my opponent has used against Sentry. Just claims from various people. That being said, I don't understand why Sentry would have a motivation to lie about this point, he's already rather powerful.

Also, my opponent is completely wrong about Sentry's susceptibility to mental manipulation. Sentry has shown a susceptibility to mental manipulation from the void multiple times. Let's look at these sources:

http://i47.tinypic.com...

Please give a context for this picture......? This page doesn't show anything on it's own.

http://media.photobucket.com...

In this picture Sentry reacts badly to a black magic spell, not mental manipulation.

http://media.photobucket.com...

Frame two of this picture shows the void up on top of building..... Also it should be noted that Emma Frost didn't "mind rape" Sentry. She helped him by containing the portion of his mind which contained Sentry inside of her own.

Finally on this point, even if Dracula somehow was able to get around the fact that he was fried, cut to slices, and impaled by sunlight, on top of not even knowing where the Sentry was.... If he was able to get around all of that then his mental manipulation of Sentry would only, as my opponent has argued, make Sentry break down and cry. It would not result in Sentry being taken control of. Furthermore I'd ask my opponent to describe how Dracula's mental powers work? Do they enable him to see through another's eyes?

Ichigo
====
My opponent would like a description of how Ichigo's powers work in the real world. My explanation is rather simple, Ichigo can condense energy into his soul which allows his mere presence to crush others to the ground. I would like my opponent to explain how Monkey's hair cloning ability works in a world where matter cannot be created or destroyed. Why won't being shot kill Monkey? How is it that Monkey can see through that which man can't see through? I would also like to know how Dracula can transform himself into a mist form? How is mind abilities work? Why exactly is it that he is invulnerable to everything except being impaled and decapitated. How exactly does Tony's system phase out light? How does the predator's system phase out light?

Black Alice
======
First it should be noted that she steals Sephiroth's powers giving her the ability to move quicker than anyone on Con's team. Secondarily it should be noted that she steals Monkey's powers, who is still stuck in hard light constructs. This means Monkey never gets a chance to rip out one hair, he is powerless and subsequently impaled. Finally it should be noted that the wiki source clearly states that "he could transform each of the 84,000 hairs on his body into inanimate objects and living beings, or even clones of himself." This means that Black Alice will be able to rip out any of her hairs to make clones of herself.

With Monkey king easily dispatched team Con doesn't stand a chance. But let's quickly examine the arguments which my opponent is forgetting about.

Forgotten
======
"Sephiroth on the other hand simply casts reflect on everyone except himself. Reflect reverses negative magical effects after the original casting."
This means even if Dracula wasn't severely weakened he wouldn't be able to get into Sentry's mind anyways.

"Meanwhile, Sentry constructs some hard light constructs that look like Team Pro all around Team Con."
Meaning even if Team Con could see through the hard light constructs which bind them they wouldn't be able to decipher which opponents were real.

There are some more forgotten arguments but I want them to be surprises with a few fun new arguments in due time.

Final Note:
=======
I am winning this debate with three characters. I only need Sephiroth, Black Alice, and Sentry in order to take my opponents team of five down. He incorrectly supposes that I must throw Black Alice out because he views her has threatening however this is not the case at all. Not only don't I think Black Alice violates the rules under Con's logic but I think even if she did then I'd throw Ichigo out instead.

With this in my mind, I'll be introducing a few more new arguments next round, and ultimately ending this debate. ^.^ Have a nice night!
feverish

Con

Thanks to Yraelz for the prompt response.

____

Monkey.

Thankfully my opponent seems to have dropped his false argument about Monkey having the title of 'god' and is now directing his "god-like" argument at Monkey's powers rather than his status.

I have maintained all along that the restrictions on "no gods" and on including street-level characters relate to power rather than semantics.

Pro: "My opponent does nothing to address any of my arguments against Monkey's substantial powers."

That's not true. Last round I specified about how Monkey has been defeated before to show the limit of his resilience to attacks. None of Monkey's powers represent anything approaching omnipotence and there are clear limits to all of them. Sentry is arguably more powerful but both these characters are permitted by the rules.

Monkey cannot move as fast as Seph, Ichi or Sentry, nor can he strip others of their powers and absorb them as Black Alice can. In no way is he overpowered compared to Team Pro.

Similarly Black Alice is not omnipotent ( which would make her too powerful for this tournament) but as I have shown, she is clearly too powerful to be considered street-level.

Yraelz pretty much concedes Alice's illegality in this battle when he says "Either Black Alice and Monkey both go or stay." Personally I would not accept the disqualification of a character that I truly believed to be legitimate.

____

Street Level.

I won't dispute that Alice spends a lot of her time fighting non-supes (although she has also gone up against omnipotent beings like Darkseid, been allied with The Shadowpact and The Society and spent time in Hell) but the street-level restriction covers powers as well as location.

Pro: "My opponent was given equal opportunity to compete on any non-god level with me, however he chose not to. I think this shows that my opponent did not believe in having a fair debate in the first place but rather was just attempting to grab an easy win."

Once again, I chose to play by the rules outlined by the tournament master. It is my opponent who chose to break the rules while trying to base his arguments upon them. I think I have been more than fair in sticking with my original team.

I don't understand the logic in my opponent claiming I have "handicapped" myself in one round and then saying I'm trying to "grab an easy win" in the next.

Comparing Alice to Spidey is irrelevant. Spidey can not perform any of Alice's powers but she could easily take his powers, enabling her to do everything he can do and still have room left for the abilities of another more powerful character.

____

Negative One Second.

I do wish my opponent would make up his mind here. Either Sentry "reaches" the start of the battle sooner (violating rule 13) or he acts before the battle has begun (violating rule 4).

____

Sentry.

Pro: "all of Sentry's powers come from sunlight."

No, his powers come from the serum that he ingested which altered his molecules. In his first debate in this tournament my opponent was under the false impression that Sentry would actually have to consume this serum at the start of the battle. Although he has since corrected this error of comprehension, it seems that he still needs to research his most powerful character further.

Natural daylight does weaken Dracula somewhat but I still don't see why Sentry's artificial version would do the same, much less make all his powers ineffective.

Pro: "Dracula must be aware or able to see one's presence in order to use this power."

I did specify that Drac would only take control of Sentry once Sentry made his presence known to him but incidentally, Dracula was able to control minds from a great distance (Transylvania to England) in the novel eg. Lucy Westenra and Renfield. http://www.literature.org...

Pro: "my opponent is still ignoring the fact that every member on his team is bound by the solid light constructs"

This assumes that Sentry would be able to locate the members of my team and construct these barriers around them, while simultaneously attempting to wipe their minds and otherwise attack them before they can act. Sentry may be a genius (like Tony) and be able to reach incredible speeds but his thought processes are still on a human level and there is no way he would be able perform so many complicated mental calculations and stress inducing manifestations of his power in such a short time.

Pro: "heat graduation goggles"

These are not goggles but hi-tech helmets with digital visual monitors that could easily distinguish between extreme heat and body temperature as well as simply filtering out the excess light and being able to track opponents by other means (see last round).

Monkey can "see through what others can not", Yraelz asserts that Sentry's light would blind people (i.e. they wouldn't be able to see through it) so I think it qualifies.

Pro: "when Sentry said he could hear a butterfly in Africa that was a claim. As such is every argument my opponent has used against Sentry."

Surely my opponent can distinguish between a claim made by a character and events that are actually depicted in the comic. A motive for deceit is not required, such a claim is unverified.

Pro: "my opponent is completely wrong about Sentry's susceptibility to mental manipulation. Sentry has shown a susceptibility to mental manipulation from the void multiple times."

Whoa. Please read the last round where I exposed Yraelz's inaccurate quote mining on this issue. Sentry is susceptible to mental manipulation *full stop (period)*. Yes this includes from The Void, which I never denied, but is not limited to it.

Pro: "This page doesn't show anything on it's own."

It shows Sentry crying and running away.

Pro: "Sentry reacts badly to a black magic spell, not mental manipulation."

It is black magic that allows Dracula to manipulate minds, 'black magic' is a literal translation of the word necromancy.

Pro: "Frame two of this picture shows the void up on top of building"

Incorrect. That's not the void, it is Sentry's own watchtower where the CLOC transmissions Tony is hacking originate from.

I think the examples of Sentry's weakness to magical mind attacks, the fact that the Wiki notes his susceptibility to mental manipulation generally (not just by the void) and the proven extent of Dracula's powers in this area make a strong case for Drac possessing Sentry completely.

Controlling the mind does indeed entail controlling the body (including eyes) as well. It is minds that translate the images that eyes see.

_____

Ichigo.

What I was attempting to clarify was whether "spiritual pressure" implies putting pressure on the "spirits" of my team, my point being that I don't believe they possess spirits in this manner. It is one issue how characters maintain their powers over their own supernatural bodies and quite a different one how a character can affect a part of a person that only characters in their own world have.

Light filtering: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu... Also sunglasses.

____

Forgotten.

Regrettably I am running low on space but I will be happy to respond to these points when Pro has responded to the mindwipe issue, the point defense system, Slave 1 and other dropped arguments.

____

Pro: "Not only don't I think Black Alice violates the rules under Con's logic but I think even if she did then I'd throw Ichigo out instead."

Pro informed me that he considered Alice street-level, not Ichi. Here he concedes that Alice is more powerful than Ichi.

____

Pro asserts that he is winning at the moment but this is of course for the judges to decide. Personally I think the confrontation between Dracula and Sentry could prove crucial to the outcome but with two more rounds remaining, there is still a lot that can happen.

Thanks.
Con.
Debate Round No. 3
Yraelz

Pro

Monkey
=====

My opponent still does nothing to address monkey's substantial powers. I point out multiple powers which prove Monkey as being on par with gods. I also examine his ability to defeat the heaven's armies. In response my opponent merely gives two instances in which Monkey was temporarily bound, bound by other gods. I don't think this ultimately answers any of my argumentation or proves monkey to be sub-god as he is bound by gods. However my opponent clearly posts a link in which Sentry is beat back in mere moments by those who are not gods. Ultimately the fact that Monkey can clone himself over 50,000 times is pretty damning for Feverish's "not a god" argumentation.

Street level
========
That all being said I think I'm still winning this street level argumentation. My argument is that my opponent had every ability to compete with my character set and purposefully chose not to. Thus I am articulating that he purposefully did this in order to gain an easy win. I would tell the judges that this is the antithesis of having any kind of meaningful debate. Additionally I would say that this is a strategy that should be condemned on debate.org. I think this is particularly appalling in the light of the fact that my opponent even had a clear advantage over me as he knew my characters and could utilize any plus street level character to combat them.

Furthermore my opponent shows little true cause as to why my team should be disqualified. His argumentation is merely that I break rules. But insofar as the rules in and of themselves are ambiguous and easily debatable I would argue that this is not a great criterion on which to judge this round. Instead the judges should focus on how much choices in the round inhibit a fair competition. My opponent has not been inhibited in any way.

Negative one second
=============
I haven't once changed my position on this point. Sentry's very being is such that he travels a second ahead of the normal time line. He is always one second ahead, he never travels further than a second nor does he travel less than a second ahead of the timeline. Thus he never travels in time. Furthermore he reaches the beginning of the battle one second ahead of everyone else. In other words he reaches the time where everyone else starts one moment ahead of everyone else. But he never travels through any time to get there. Neither does he time travel nor start early. He starts at the designated time, he just got there quicker than everyone else.

Sentry
====
Yeah.... my opponent is right, Sentry achieved his powers by consuming a serum. However his powers are that of a million exploding suns. These two things are not mutually exclusive, both ideas can be true. As the wikipedia source points out:

"Middle aged, overweight Bob Reynolds remembers that he is the Sentry, a superhero whose "power of one million exploding suns" derives from a special serum."

To beat a dead horse..... Sentry's powers are those of the sun..... Dracula is rather weakened by a single sun..... Sentry possess the powers of one million suns..... Dracula is incapacitated if not dead.

Furthermore my opponent agrees that Dracula could only act after identifying Sentry. Unfortunately Sentry, who we've established moves faster than light, would never be noticed by Dracula. Furthermore Dracula would be bound, and would not be able to see a thing. Thus Dracula is done.

Next, my opponent has taken the time to address a main point of my strategy which has not been touched for the last two rounds. Hard light constructs. Feverish argues that Sentry would have to make calculations in order to find team Con and bind them. Unfortunately, for my opponent, this is not true at all. Let's reconsider what I said in ROUND 1:

"Thus Sentry fills the entirety of New York city, except for the immediate vicinity of team Pro, with blinding monstrous light. It should be noted that this stops team Con from seeing, but Sentry can create hard light constructs. This means that the lights acts as an impenetrable barrier which literally bind anyone inside of it."

Put simply: Sentry fills entire city with light except for a small space. This light is hard. It stops movement within it. Team con is frozen.

The strategy progresses to say that Sentry then channels light directly from Monkey into Black Alice's eyes so she may see him. Thus she steals his powers. And the strategy ends with team Con being impaled by the hard light which surrounds all of New York city, except for the vicinity of my team.

My point being, Sentry never even has to locate team Con to use the first step of this strategy. He never has to do a mental calculation. This has been my position since round 1.

Black Magic
=======
My opponent states in his last round that Dracula uses black magic in order to manipulate other's minds. This is a mistake.....

"It is black magic that allows Dracula to manipulate minds, 'black magic' is a literal translation of the word necromancy."

Look to my round 1 where I state: "Sephiroth on the other hand simply casts reflect on everyone except himself. Reflect reverses negative magical effects after the original casting."

Any magic used against Sentry will be reflected back on the user. Dracula, as he uses black magic, could never mind control Sentry.

Monkey's ability to see
==============
My opponent argues that Monkey can see through things other's cannot. This is true.

I argue that Sentry can do things that other's cannot. This is true.

My opponent seems to think it therefor follows that Monkey can see through ALL things other's cannot.

This would be like me saying that Sentry can do ALL things other's cannot. In other words he can immediately kill everyone in this battle and I win.

My opponent's logic on this point does not follow.

The goggles of seeing
==============
Team con's heat sensory equipment is not calibrated to see through light or heat generated by multiple suns right on top of them. I stick with my argument. They can't see. But it's really pointless as they are already bound.

Forgotten
======
My opponent does nothing to combat the fact that there are many different hard light constructs that looks exactly like my characters. I think this posses a problem.

The battle
======
Assuming for one moment that all of my actions go haywire it will only be Sephiroth, Black Alice, and Sentry vs. all five members of team Con. I've established that Sephiroth and Sentry are quicker than light. Sentry starts the battle by binding everyone outside in hard light constructs, the positions I've maintained since round 1. Sephiroth casts reflect on Sentry and Black Alice, the position I've maintained since round 1. Sentry creates randomly located hard light constructs which look like team Pro around new York.

Black Alice steals Sephiroth's powers. Black Alice looks through light redirected by Sentry to steal Monkey's powers. Black Alice then rips her hairs out creating many Black Alice. (These points were untouched last round by my opponent.) Meanwhile Sentry leisurely locates team Con with his ability to hear things from far away. A claim which he himself made but had no reason to lie about. Upon locating them Sentry slices them to peaces and impales them with hard light, that's assuming they haven't already died due to the supreme heat generated by the light of a million suns.

Should anything above fail the black alice army and Sephiroth would show up perhaps 3-5 seconds into the battle to obliterate the powerless team Con. Black Alice would enjoy sucking each character's powers out and in turn crushing their powerless bodies.

At the end of this debate my argument is simple: My opponent hasn't addressed enough of my original argumentation for my team not to get a dominating edge at the start of this battle, even if I'm harshly handicapped. Thanks for the time!
feverish

Con

Ding! Ding! Ding! Round 4.

Monkey.

Pro: "My opponent still does nothing to address monkey's substantial powers"

That's simply not true, having conceded his original semantic argument about the classification of a god, my opponent's assessment of Monkey's powers displays complete obliviousness to my points about Monkey's powers being significantly less than his team in some areas.

As I have stated, Monkey's powers all have clear limitations and in no way could he be described as omnipotent. Observe the tournament master's clarification of the god-level restriction in the first tournament thread:

LM: "By god, I mean people who are seemingly omnipotent. Essentially, people like Dr. Manhattan or the Living Tribunal or anyone who cannot really be defeated. In essence, Ganondorf and the Egyptian god cards would be acceptable. Being familiar with both "gods", I most certainly wouldn't rank them anywhere near the level of the gods whom I referring to. Heck, I wouldn't even put them on par with Dr. Strange."
http://www.debate.org...

Pro: "I don't think this ... proves monkey to be sub-god as he is bound by gods."

What better proof that he is non-omnipotent than his eventual defeat at the hands of higher powers?

_______

Street level.

Pro: "My argument is that my opponent had every ability to compete with my character set and purposefully chose not to."

My argument is that my opponent had every ability to abide by the rules and purposefully chose not to, whilst opening the debate with a rule-based attack on my team.

Who granted me this "ability" to break the rules? My gracious opponent himself, in the same breath as he questions the legitimacy of my team.

Pro: "this is the antithesis of having any kind of meaningful debate. Additionally I would say that this is a strategy that should be condemned on debate.org. I think this is particularly appalling in the light of the fact that my opponent even had a clear advantage over me"

My opponent seems to be attempting to vilify my adherence to the rules and call me out for this vile transgression in front of our small online community. According to Pro, following rules (or at least certain rules, judged at his own discretion) is unfair and taking "advantage", whilst disregarding some rules to focus on others is the pinnacle of fair play.

Pro: "But insofar as the rules in and of themselves are ambiguous and easily debatable I would argue that this is not a great criterion on which to judge this round. Instead the judges should focus on how much choices in the round inhibit a fair competition."

By their definition, rules are designed to ensure "fair competition", they are supposed to be debatable but not disregarded on a whim. I think I have shown a clearer understanding (backed up by references) of the rules in this tournament than my opponent as well as a higher level of adherence to them, hopefully judges will consider this in their analysis.

If my opponent honestly believes that for one moment I have regarded this confrontation as "an easy win" then I can only deduce that he is suffering from low self-esteem. Yraelz is a formidable debater with an awesome track record on this site and his team easily includes some of the best picks in this tournament. His false modesty doesn't fool me for a second.

Pro ignores the fact that he acknowledged Alice's superiority over Ichi.
___

Negative one second.

Pro: "Sentry's very being is such that he travels a second ahead of the normal time line"

Thus time travel.

I'm getting slightly bored of this bizarre word game from my opponent. Either Sentry "moves ahead of the time line" or "he reaches that point in time earlier", however creatively you describe it, it is not permitted by the rules.

____

Sentry.

Pro: "Dracula is rather weakened by a single sun..... Sentry possess the powers of one million suns"

Drac is weakened by "the sun". Our specific sun: http://en.wikipedia.org...

However solar-powered Sentry may be, Sentry =/= the sun and Sentry's artificial light constructs =/= the sun.

Pro:"Sentry, who we've established moves faster than light, would never be noticed by Dracula"

Why not? Dracula is able to sense the presence of others, an energy source as strong as The Sentry would be hard to miss. Faster than light doesn't mean invisible, it means by the time you see it, it has moved on. Dracula doesn't need to see Sentry anyway, merely to sense his presence which would surely be inevitable as he is so powerful.

I don't think my opponent has been entirely consistent in his description of the hard light construct(s) he has Sentry create or maybe my misinterpretation is partly down to grammatical errors such as "the lights acts as an impenetrable barrier".

If Pro is really suggesting that Sentry can create such a field of hard light then I would like to see some evidence of this ability in the comics, as well as an explanation of how Sentry can pass through this "hard light" but others can not.

Pro: "Sentry then channels light directly from Monkey...Sentry never even has to locate team Con"

This seems somewhat contradictory.

Overall, my opponent seems to be clutching at straws with his Sentry attack (his main strategy), having apparently dropped the mind wipe suggestion altogether and already made several wildly inaccurate assumptions about his most powerful character.

____

Black magic.

Pro: "Sephiroth on the other hand simply casts reflect on everyone except himself. Reflect reverses negative magical effects after the original casting."

Reflect can not be cast on others to protect them, it is merely a special move on the computer game that allows the character to bounce back missile type magic attacks from his foes. It is not listed as a power of his in the sources he presented in previous debates.

Also Sentry is apparently long gone from Seph's vicinity by this point, especially if we were to accept the fallacious negative one second argument.

___________

Pro: "My opponent argues that Monkey can see through things other's [sic] cannot."

That's not just my argument that's the specific quote from the sources and it comes across as an absolute statement, things he can not see through are specified; smoke, fog etc.

_________

Pro: "Team con's heat sensory equipment is not calibrated to see through light or heat generated by multiple suns right on top of them."

My opponent makes this unsupported blanket statement without responding to any of my specific explanations as to how these characters can still see his team.

__________

Forgotten

Pro: "My opponent does nothing to combat the fact that there are many different hard light constructs that looks exactly like my characters. I think this posses a problem."

I think this presents a contradiction with my opponent's recent assertion that it is one field of hard light that Sentry creates.

Obviously heat sensing, psychic awareness and the ability to see through illusions would make such decoys ineffective anyway.
______

The battle

Pro asserts that he has stuck with his original strategy but I feel I have refuted it effectively, no matter how much he has modified it.

He has not satisfactorily explained how Sentry could protect himself from a mind rape by Dracula, his exaggeration of the reflect spell notwithstanding.

My opponent has offered no suggestion as to how Ichi and Seph could defend themselves from a Drac controlled Sentry, eleven Monkeys and my metal headed crew and with all due modesty, I believe the outcome of this battle to now be a forgone conclusion.

Thanks.

Con.
Debate Round No. 4
Yraelz

Pro

Monkey
=====

Logical-master's description and ideas of omnipotence serve as an example of overwhelming powers which would be considered god-like. If Logical had meant just omnipotence then he wouldn't have said, "not omni-potent character" instead of "no gods." Furthermore omni-potents is just defined as having unlimited or extreme powers in some aspects.

Which means....

I throughout this debate give specific examples of how Monkey his supremely powerful, his ability to clone himself, " His staff can also multiply itself at will and fight for itself", "he now possesses "Xi Wangmu's "peaches of immortality", Lao Tzu's "pills of longevity"". However, my opponent, has never addressed why these attributes do not make him god-like or why these attributes don't make his supremely powerful. I've of course been poining this out since round 2,

"My opponent does nothing to address any of my arguments against Monkey's substantial powers."

and my opponent just keeps saying,

"That's simply not true"

followed by,

"Monkey's powers being significantly less than his team in some areas."

However he never does any comparison between monkey's powers and my team's powers. All he does is say that Sentry is pretty fast, and Black Alice can steal abilities. He never addresses any of the argumentation on how Monkey being able to replicate himself 84,000 times puts him far above the abilities of any other character. Not to mention he is also fast, and his hairs can literally turn into "anything" which includes replicas of Black Alice. And of course apparently Monkey can see through EVERYTHING.

Finally my opponent argues that there is no better proof for Monkey being sub-godlike then having been beaten twice by gods. This would be a solid point excluding the fact that he beat the army of heaven before, which includes gods. So yeah, he was confined twice, but he also beat gods many times.

Monkey has overwhelming powers, he's a god, he's basically omni-potent in many aspects.

Street Level
========
Haha! There are two devastating arguments which were not adequately combated by my opponent.

My opponent says that rules are defined to create fair play. Yes, this is true. However, he completely ignores my point which is that everyone interprets rules in different ways. Thus the debate turns out unfair by simply focusing on rules. Instead debaters should focus on how much fairness is afforded to both players irrespective of rules. This argument is never combated against, and while we're on the topic of fairness I think it would be wantonly unfair for my opponent to address this argument now that I won't have a chance to respond. He already an easy opportunity.

The second mistake is my opponent's argumentation regarding how I start the battle by arguing he breaks rules. It's true I do this. However I'm not arguing he breaks rules and therefor should have Monkey excluded from the debate. I'm arguing that Monkey's powers are substantial enough to hinder the fairness of this fight and thus Monkey should be excluded. My argumentation does not center around superficial interpretations of rules, they center around how fair this fight is.

Which means we reach my conclusion. My opponent had the ability from round one to choose any plus street level team. From the beginning there was a completely fair debate between us. He CHOSE to handicap himself, he took away his own FAIR portion of this debate and then tried to exclude my characters by saying I had done it. I think this is a pretty independent reason for vote for my team just based on the grounds of presenting fair debate.

Negative One Sec
===========
1. Sentry is always 1 second ahead of the time line, thus he never travels through time. Similarly I am always 0 seconds ahead of the normal time line, thus I never travel through time.

2. Because of his inherent characteristic Sentry's actions allow his normal timeline equivalent to have a moment of reaction.

3. He never travels, he never starts early, he just gets to the start of the match first. Of course, if the judges don't believe this it just means he starts a second later.

Sentry
====
1. The sun sheds light. There is no reason why Dracula would not be susceptible to another sun's light. Both forms of light are generated by a mass fusion hydrogen reaction. Dracula is owned.

2. Dracula can't see Sentry. Sentry being faster than light isn't caught by light for it to reflect off him. Furthermore there is no precedent for Dracula's innate ability to just sense people. Otherwise Van Helsing sneaking into his castle multiple times would have been "sensed". But it doesn't matter because he's far too weakened by the sun.

3. Sentry's hard light constructs. I'm just winning this argument. My argument since round 1 has been that Sentry can create hard light constructs. My opponent decides in round four to respond. And his response is to say that I must offer proof. This would be some solid argumentation if I hadn't already done this in round 1..... In my fourth paragraph of round 1:

"The void, as Sentry later figured out, was simply a creation of his own mind which he transferred into a real hard light construct."

I go on to say that the void was such a powerful hard light construct that it killed millions of people. Furthermore I cited that Sentry's main power is that ability to manipulate light. Finally I've shown how he could fill New York city with such intense energy as to start a massive inferno.

Which means this. I've stuck with the same position for four rounds and my opponent has done nothing to combat it. Sentry can create hard light constructs, and he can use them to kill people. Thus Sentry since round 1 has created a giant hard light construct which quickly slices through people. I've attempted to impress the direness of this strategy on my opponent for four rounds as it is simply devastating for his strategy. His characters can't move, can't see, and die. Yet my opponent has offered no argument which I didn't previously refute in round 1. If for some reason my opponent finally detects the direness of this situation in his next round and decides to make a bunch of new arguments, those should be immediately disqualified. I gave him ample chance.

4. Sentry never travels through the hard light. I said he lowers it before he moves in round 1.

5. If Sentry can manipulate light then he can pull light being reflected off Monkey straight into Black Alice's eyes. She gets Monkey's powers before he dies or can move. Other arguments by my opponent on this would also be brand new.

Black Magic
=======
1. Sephiroth can be seen using magic during Final Fantasy advent children, and Final Fantasy 7.
2. Reflect can indeed be cast on other party members. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...(Spell) Anyone who's played a final fantasy is aware of this. It is like any other support magic (such as cure) and be be cast on either enemy or friend.
3. I say in round 1 Sentry leaves after Sephiroth casts reflect.
4. All my arguments are straight from round 1.

Sight
===
1. The Monkey source clearly states, "Instead of killing him, the fire and smoke added to the monkey a pair of firy golden crystal eyes that can see through what people normally can not." This does not mean it is an absolute statement at all. For instance I could say that Sentry can do things normal people cannot and then note that he can't turn into a plane, but this doesn't mean Sentry can do everything else normal people cannot. In the same way the fact that Monkey can't see through smoke doesn't mean he can see through all other things.

2. None of my opponent's light filtering equipment would ever have dealt with something as powerful as a million suns of light. They don't work and probably fry due to extreme heat.

Other arguments are superfluous in me winning this fight. Thanks all!
feverish

Con

Thanks to Yraelz for an intense if somewhat frustrating battle.

As my opponent won't be able to respond to this final round and most of his arguments seem to be progressing in concentric circles anyway I'll try to keep this brief.

Apologies to any UTW fans who have found this debate to be dominated by stubborn arguments over technicalities rather than fun and creative battle strategies.

____

Monkey.

I think I've made my points here; Monkey is not a god, nor omnipotent, nor over-powered compared to my opponent's team. It is very annoying to be told I haven't responded to points I have refuted at great length especially when my opponent keeps on modifying his argument in respect of this issue.

Pro: "he never does any comparison between monkey's powers and my team's powers."

False, see round 3 where I made direct comparisons of speed and other powers.

Pro: "Monkey has overwhelming powers, he's a god, he's basically omni-potent in many aspects."

I've explained why he is not a god and my opponent then dropped those arguments. There is no justification given for the label of "omni-potent" [sic] which means all powerful; something Monkey is not as I have given many examples of things he can't do (like move faster than 3 of team Pro). All of my opponent's characters as well as most non street level characters in this tournament have "overwhelming powers".

____

Street Level.

It's quite insulting the way Pro has attempted to paint my conduct as unfair and I endorse his recommendation for the judges to make their own minds up here.

There is a clear contradiction from Pro where he says "...arguing he breaks rules. It's true I do this. However I'm not arguing he breaks rules".

?

Pro hasn't responded to me pointing out his acknowledgement of Black Alice being more powerful than Ichigo. This seems to me a clear concession that Alice doesn't fit the bill.

If my opponent really wanted a "fair" debate he would have stuck to the rules himself, hopefully his bizarre argument that he has played fair by breaking the rules and I have marred the debate by following them will not convince too many readers.

____

Negative One Sec

My opponent seems to have a logical blind spot here and I can only conclude that he is intentionally playing dumb.

Pro: "He never travels, he never starts early, he just gets to the start of the match first."

Surely I'm not the only person who can see an inherent contradiction here?

This argument is anyway completely void if Sentry waits for Seph to cast reflect before he attacks as my opponent suggests, this would clearly give the head start to my team rather than his.
___

Sentry.

Pro: "there is no precedent for Dracula's innate ability to just sense people. Otherwise Van Helsing sneaking into his castle multiple times would have been "sensed"."

I don't know what version of the novel Pro has been reading. Dracula always seems to sense the actions of the main characters and at no point does Van Helsing enter, let alone "sneak in" to castle Dracula.

Pro: "Sentry's hard light constructs. I'm just winning this argument."

I can only envy my opponent's self belief here. Throughout this debate most of his assertions about Sentry have been wildly inaccurate and his suggestion that the existence of the Void is an example of Sentry intentionally flooding an area with hard light is the worst one yet.

Like the partial mind wipe discussed in earlier rounds, Sentry created the Void unintentionally (a quick glance at the wiki confirms this). More importantly the Void has none of the characteristics of the field of hard light my opponent describes.

There is no need for the "bunch of new arguments" my opponent fears because his own claims do not support each other.

Pro: "Sentry never travels through the hard light. I said he lowers it before he moves in round 1."

Nowhere in round 1 can I locate such a claim. My opponent claims my characters are bound but his can move. There is no logic to this.

____

Black Magic

If Sentry launches at my team at the very start of the battle, or even before it as my opponent wants him to, then he will not acquire the protection of reflect and will be controlled by Dracula.

If he waits for Seph then the rest of my opponent's strategy is completely void as Sentry will not have his head start.

____

Pro: "In the same way the fact that Monkey can't see through smoke doesn't mean he can see through all other things."

Smoke is mentioned as a specific exception to the rule of what Monkey can see through. No other exceptions are given.

Pro: "None of my opponent's light filtering equipment would ever have dealt with something as powerful as a million suns of light. They don't work and probably fry due to extreme heat."

The points about other vision modes have been dropped, the link on light filtering which explains how white light (like that from a sun) can be filtered from the visual field has been ignored and the "frying" is a new argument in the last round.

____

This debate was certainly hard work but I think I have successfully argued my case. I thank my opponent, the judges, the tournament master, public voters and everyone else for reading.

Con.
Debate Round No. 5
32 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
As soon as the final debate is instigated, can someone please send me the link?
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Feverish advances to the final roun.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Pcmbrown

RFD B: Feverish A: Feverish Con: Tie. Arg: Feverish. He won all DQ arguments excepting Black Alice, along with argumentation regarding Sentry's timeframe. Along with winning the various Dracula arguments, this wins him the debate. Sources: Feverish. He utilized them more effectively.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
MTGANDP's RFD Below
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
RFD

1 Pro:
Monkey is a god, you say? You make a fair point. This mind wipe thing may work on four of Con's five warriors, but as you say, Monkey is godlike. I need to be further convinced that you can wipe his mind. (This point is irrelevant if Monkey is disqualified.) Your characters have some very strange powers, but very good ones. Let's look at what Con said.

1 Con:
You accuse Pro of having no street-level characters. Looking at Pro's character descriptions in his first debate, none of them are labeled as street level. If you effectively prove that Pro has no street-level characters, I will consider Black Alice and Emma Frost to be disqualified. I like your supporting evidence for the claim that Monkey is not a god.

Regarding the actual battle, some of your counter-arguments make some unjustified leaps of logic, but the majority of them are solid.

2 Pro:
Arguing that Monkey is a god because of his abilities, and then arguing that Sentry can overpower him, seems like a rather self-defeating argument. But you have also provided a source that claims that Monkey is a god. There is so far no agreement about Monkey's status; since we are innocent until proven guilty, Monkey will be considered legal until stronger evidence is provided.

LM may have approved of your characters, but he also stated in the rules that the contenders would be free to argue over the validity of their opponents' characters. This supposed argument from authority holds no weight. Also, allowing your opponent to break the rules does not justify your breaking the rules. If both of you had no street-level characters, then both of you could have two of your team members disqualified.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Your explanation for why Team Con would not be able to see through the light makes no sense. However, your explanation for why Dracula would be pwned is a legitimate one.

2 Con:
Irrespective of who's winning, let it be said that they certainly don't call this the semifinals for nothing. You guys know what you're doing.

I read the Wiki about Sun Wukong, and it seems clear enough that he is not a god.

Women don't generally have chest hair? You win the cleverness award.

3 Pro:
Monkey may be as powerful as a god, but you cannot simultaneously argue that he should be disqualified because of his godlike powers and that Sentry is stronger. Black Alice is a different matter, as she is supposed to be a street level character and not just an ordinary one.

How exactly can one's molecules be one second ahead of the normal time, without it being considered time travel?

I am curious about what the physics of densely packed photons would be. It seems like all those photons packed so closely would release an immense amount of energy -- like, orders of magnitude greater than that of a supernova. This, it seems to me, would instantly kill everyone on both teams.

Extreme light-hardening examples aside, you have a point that it should not be necessary to explain how all these powers work in the real world. This is, after all, not the real world.

Aww, why did you have to go and ruin the clever little chest hair bit?
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
3 Con:
I see no reason why artificial light would have less of an effect on Dracula than that of natural light. After all, both light sources are photons. I looked at your source for Dracula on your first debate, and it said that Dracula has an aversion to "sunlight"; it did not say that the light had to be sunlight, though. At the time of the character's creation, powerful indoor lighting did not exist yet. But it seems safe to assume that Sentry's light would indeed affect Dracula.

4 Pro:
I am not going to comment on Monkey or the street level issue, as both have been beaten to death. If something new is brought up, I will address it. But until then, I am moving on.

The intention of the time travel rule was to prevent time travelers from being impossibly fast and thus beating everyone else to the battle. This is what Sentry is doing. Therefore, whatever it is that you call what he is doing will not be allowed.

4 Con:
It makes very little sense to say that Dracula is weakened by our sun but not by other suns.

I think that your team's light filters are not calibrated to seeing through massive amounts of light. But still, I see no reason why motion sensors would not continue to work.

5 Pro:
Monkey is not omnipotent. Let's take a look at Sentry's abilities. Traveling one second ahead of everyone else? Impenetrable barriers of light? If anyone in this battle is omnipotent, it is Sentry.

It would seem that you have given up on arguing that your street-level characters are actually fair, and instead are only arguing that you should be allowed to break the rules. Feverish did not choose to handicap himself, he chose to follow the rules. If anything, you have handicapped yourself by getting your characters disqualified.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Even though it is round 5, it would be nice if you would provide proof now. Better late than never, you know. Unless it is the last round, new arguments are acceptable.

5 Con:
You are pretty much right regarding Monkey. You have behaved perfectly fairly throughout this debate.

Yraelz is right that Sentry never time travels. However, as I said back in round 4, his time travel will still be banned.

========

Thanks to both debaters for putting on a great show. There was a strong performance on both sides. (I can't wait to read the finals!) For my verdict, I will explain how the battle plays out, based on how effectively each point was argued.

***

Pre-Battle: Black Alice and Emma Frost are disqualified for not being street level.

Negative One Second: Yraelz has informed me that Sentry is always one second ahead. Under normal circumstances, time travel would necessitate disqualification; but since Sentry cannot control it, I will allow him to stay in the battle if he waits for one second after the battle starts, thus properly aligning him with normal time.

Zero Seconds: If Sentry created hard light constructs, Dracula would be incapacitated. But Sentry does not create hard light constructs, as his ability to do so was not effectively proven. While Sentry is moving in to attack, Dracula mind controls him.

Monkey gets to chest hair ripping. Meanwhile, Ichigo uses his spiritual pressure thing that was brought up in the first round and then never mentioned again. I don't know much about this effect, but I will assume that it incapacitates Team Con's street-level characters. (It can't be too powerful, now can it?) Several of the Monkeys rip Ichigo to pieces; the other monkeys, Iron Man and Sentry all race towards Sephiroth and kill him in a lethal (and non-magical) assault. Winner: TEAM CON.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
Thanks MTG.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
I'm working on an RFD.
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fire_wings
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