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LM Classic: mongeese vs. Yraelz

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/9/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,006 times Debate No: 9456
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (61)
Votes (11)





My team:
Yami Yugi
Seto Kaiba

For more info:

My opening strategies:

1. Mind Control

Yugi possesses the Millennium Rod, which allows him to take control of other people ( In addition to this, he has the Millennium Ring, which allows him to tap into the magical powers of his Duel Monsters cards (, and between them, Kaiba and Yugi have Brain Control, Change of Heart, and Enemy Controller. Using these cards and the Rod, they could easily control my opponent's entire team, and either feed them to Kirby or sacrifice them to the Winged Dragon of Ra. My opponent will probably explain why this won't work on some of his characters, but anyone who survives can be eliminated by Ra, as long as I have enough people to sacrifice, because it would have the combined power of all sacrifices.

2. Swords of Revealing Light

Using the Swords of Revealing Light, Yugi can freeze Team CON for three "turns," although I don't really know how long a "turn" would be. However, it would probably be enough time for Kirby to eat a few of them, and for Yugi and Kaiba to permanently disable a few of them with Spell-Binding Circle or Shadow Spell.

3. Statue of Liberty

Link can use the Dominion Rod ( to take over the hollow Statue of Liberty, and use it as an indestructible weapon of mass destruction while Link hides in said statue.

Individual Strategies against Certain Characters:

1. Sephiroth
a. Link could go into battle armed with his shield, sword, arrows, and magic armor. Other heroes have been able to defeat Sephiroth in similar ways. I see no reason why Link, being skilled enough, would be any different.
b. Yugi could use the Collected Power card to transfer all equipment carried by all members of Team PRO and Team CON to Link. Members of Team PRO would then ask Link for their own equipment back, and because Link is a video game character, time freezes as he makes decisions like this (as an example, when Malo asks for Link's Wooden Sword, time freezes until Yes or No is chosen). He gives Team PRO their equipment back, but still has all of Team CON's equipment. This would make Sephiroth much easier to defeat.

2. Emma Frost
a. I can't find anything about her speed, but it looks as if Kirby's Inhale would take care of Emma Frost efficiently.

3. Black Alice
a. Yugi could defeat Black Alice in the same way he did the Thousand-Eyed Restrict. He could combine Kuriboh with Multiply to completely surround Black Alice, so that she cannot see anybody else, and taking the power of a Kuriboh would make her explode on contact, which would leave her defeated.

4. Vash
a. He no longer has his gun, thanks to Collected Power.
b. He's a pacifist, so Kirby can just look cute to him, and he wouldn't want to kill cute little Kirby until, well, Kirby eats him.

5. Sentry
a. In the battle against acer, my opponent stated that he still had some Serum on him, so Collected Power would transfer that to Link, and Link could use it to power himself up.
b. The Wiki says, "His main weakness may be that he's been shown as susceptible to mental manipulation." See Mind Control.

Counters to Speed Blitzing:

1. Mirror Force
Yugi activates Mirror Force, stopping the attack on Team PRO and reflecting it at every member of Team CON, destroying them.

2. Negate Attack
Kaiba can use Negate Attack to stop whatever attack was being used at the time, and then stop any further attack from being used for a short while until more cards can be played by the two duelists for complete domination.

3. Magic Armor
If Link wears the Redirect Attack Armor (Kaiba's card), all attacks by Team CON must hit Link instead of anybody else. With Magic Armor under that, Link survives the attack, and loses Rupees (perhaps all of them, depending on the attack). However, after being hit, Link has a temporary phase of invincibility, which gives me enough time to carry out the rest of the plan.
If the rest of my team hides in a closet, Link could guard the door, and still stall for a few seconds, even without Redirect Attack Armor.

Well, that's enough for now. Good luck, Yraelz.

For more info on specific things from specific canons, I suggest you try these links:


Having made it this far, I'd like to congratulate my opponent, this should be a fun round!

In this round I'll be using the following five characters:

1. Sephiroth
For anyone who doesn't know, he was the main protagonist in the final fantasy 7 series.
Powers: He has a lot, notable ones are the ability to teleport, to move faster than the speed of light, his super nova attack, meteor...

2. Black Alice, before she went to Hell and was traumatized.
Powers: She has the ability to steal the powers of others.

3. Sentry (Robert Reynolds)
Powers: Super hearing, can move faster than light, energy projection, control of light, passive radiation, resuscitation, the ability to implant memories.

4. Vash (without his super weapon Angel Arm)
Powers: Superhuman agility, reflexes and strength. He once prevented mass amounts of deaths by throwing pebbles in order to knock bullets off of their course. He has also been seen using telepathy. He is extremely intelligent if not the most intelligent human.

5. Emma Frost
Powers: Extreme Telepathy rivaling Charles Xavier, Diamond Form.

I would like to warn my opponent before I continue. I do not have the time or the space to fully describe each character I posses while simultaneously arguing this round. If you would like to make attacks on my characters you will doubtlessly have to do some research for yourself.

Having established my team I'd like to begin by arguing the easiest point for me to win. Then I'll progress to the other arguments in no particular order.

Contention 1: Yu-gi-oh cards
My opponent hinges a great deal of his points off of the idea that Yugi's or Seto's cards can somehow interact with my five characters. This would be a plausible point if my characters were all duel monsters, however, they are not.....

Yu-gi-oh duel monsters do not exist in reality, nor in the world of Yu-gi-oh. Instead they are simply cards that are brought to life via holograms. They are completely immaterial and have no effect on the real world what-so-ever. For proof I'll reference the Yugi vs. Rare Hunter episode from season two. At 16 minutes and 15 seconds it is explained exactly how the cards function. As holograms, in a game.

If my opponent would like to continue to pursue this line of argumentation I will beat the horse until it is dead. The cards cannot interact with anything outside of a duel. My characters will not accept a duel nor are they cards.

Atem (The pharaoh that Yugi occasionally changes bodies with).

The only time that Yugi ever has access to the Millenium Rod is when he is dueling Atem. In other words my opponent cannot simultaneously have access to the Millenium Rod and also Atem.

Additionally the character limit of this debate is five, not six. I'd point out that Atem is indeed his own person as stated by this article:
He's a Pharaoh who Yugi unlocked from his prison in the Millennium Puzzle.

Thus my opponent has no ability to use Atem.

1. Kirby can't eat boss monsters in any game. Additionally he can only eat mini-bosses after having defeated them.
2. Kirby can't eat people permanently, he spits them out after roughly three seconds.
3. Kirby can only copy a fraction of someone's abilities, not all.

The Dominion Rod
1. It can only be used on three distinct types of statues. None of those fit the description of "statue of liberty".
Third paragraph, read for yourself:

Now I'll address my opponents arguments in order.

1. Mind Control with Millennium Rod
The major flaw with the rod's mind control ability is that it's influence can be easily broken. For instance in the yu-gi-oh series Joey resisted the power of the millenium rod and returned to his normal self during his duel with Yugi in the Battle City Arc.

This means that the Millenium Rod is completely useless against my characters who either have superb intellect or flat out specialize in some form of telepathy. This is also a major problem for yugi because it means that at the end of this debate he's the one mind controlled by Emma Frost, who's powers rival Xavier.

Additionally, even if the cards did work, Black Alice absorbs powers. Meaning if my opponent could summon the winged dragon of Ra (he can't) then she would just absorb it's powers. Winged Alice or Ra owns team Pro.

If this scenario even happened, Yugi would leave New York on Emma's will. But I honestly think Yugi is dead before he starts to move.

2. Swords of Revealing Light
a. Sentry moves faster than the speed of light. Before Yugi can do this he is dead.
b. Cards don't work.
c. This would be like Yugi using Swords of Revealing Light on Joey. Doesn't happen.
d. Additionally the card only stops attacks, meaning my characters can still move faster than the speed of light in defense. This accomplishes nothing for whatever three turns is. Then Sentry straight up owns his entire team.

"Sentry possesses tremendous energy projection, capable of harming even the Hulk, who has withstood the equivalent of solar flares unharmed."
e. Yugi, Seto, Link, Midna, and Kirby can't withstand solar flares.

3. Statue of Liberty
a. Links dead before he moves via Sentry or Sephiroth.
b. Link doesn't know where the statue is.
c. The statue doesn't indestructible seal. Even if Link could control it then my members could still walk inside and destroy him.
d. Sentry can throw the statue out of New York.

Now I'll address my opponents pre-empts to my characters.

1. Sephiroth
a. When Sephiroth lost to Cloud he did so while holding back Holy and fighting three other people simultaneously. Additionally he didn't die, he just joined the life stream. Link gets pwned by Sephiroth considering the massive speed difference and power gap.
b. Cards don't work. And Link is functioning in the an example of the real world, not video game land. Time doesn't freeze when he is posed with questions in New York. Finally Sephiroth wouldn't bother asking the question, he'd just take his gear back.... brutally.

2. Emma
a. If Kirby get's close to Emma she will just mind control him, and then have him attack his own teammates. Alternatively she can turn into diamond form and kill Kirby with super strength.

3. Black Alice
a. She isn't going to wait around while Yugi searches through his deck for a Kuriboh and a Multiply card.
b. Cards don't work.
c. She'll take Yugi's power.
d. She already would have taken the winged dragon of Ra's power if cards could work.
e. Additionally if she took the Kuriboh's powers she would also take multiply which would inevitably make tons of Black Alice's who would steal everyones powers except Sephiroth's and Reynor's.

4. Vash
a. Yugi doesn't draw a card because he's dead.
b. Vash still has a gun, because cards don't work.
c. True, Vash is a pacifist. However he can use rubber bullets to knock Kirby senseless. Some other character kills the blacked out team Pro.
d. Finally, unless Yugi and Seto can dodge bullets, they'll both be knocked out before they can draw cards (if they weren't already dead).

5. Sentry
a. I was mistaken in my battle with Acer. Sentry does not have a Serum on him. He does not need to apply it constantly, it was a one time deal. Read my source.
b. He can't be mind controlled if he can't be seen. Too fast.
c. Finally, his speed blitz can't be countered. He'd kill everyone before they drew
Debate Round No. 1


Thank you for responding. I will now address each of your contentions.

Contention 1: Yu-Gi-Oh cards

Please watch Video 1 (4:55) to see Bakura using the Millennium Ring to use Chain Energy to bind Pegasus' guards. Yes, they can be summoned through holograms, but they can also be summoned through magic. The guards were not at all dueling Bakura. Bakura just decided to draw his card and use it, which is the situation we have here. For more duel monster summoning, see Video 2 (7:40).

Contention 2: Atem
Yugi received the Millennium Rod after he defeated Marik.
"Marik gives Yugi the Millennium Rod and The Winged Dragon of Ra."

My opponent then implies that using dual-characters (characters with two minds instead of one) is supposed to be illegal. However, this would contradict the immense number of dual-characters that have been allowed, including the Hulk (, used by the creator of UTW himself, so it is fairly obvious that dual-characters are allowed. Don't worry, though - I'm not going to have them occupy two different bodies. They'll remain in one body, which is what is needed to be legal in this game.

Contention 3: Kirby
The canon that I specified at the very beginning of this entire thing, on the thread that lists everybody's chosen canons, I chose the anime to be Kirby's canon. Since my opponent's first two arguments only relate to the games. The third one is actually false. He's eaten things and gained more power than the thing had in the first place. The example is Waddle-Doos. Kirby's Beam attack is even more powerful than a Waddle-Doo's.

Contention 4: Dominion Rod
The one thing that all of those statues have in common is the fact that they're hollow. An owl statue, at one point, could not be taken over, because it wasn't hollow yet. The Statue of Liberty is also hollow. Its head is actually a room.

Now, back to the original outline:

1. Mind Control
My opponent's arguments here only deal with the Rod, and not any of the cards, so he's going to need more arguments here.
My opponent cites the incident with Joey breaking free. However, one must remember that he was wearing the Millennium Puzzle at the time (, and it has been seen that Millennium Items can cancel each other's powers. So, unless Team CON can get any Millennium Items, or other magical items like Millennium Items, the Millennium Rod will take them all over.
My opponent also tries to use Black Alice, but if Black Alice is among the mind-controlled, then this plan really doesn't work.
Now, my opponent slips in Emma's mind-controlling powers. However, Yugi has two minds, which would make this task much more difficult, as it would be the exact same scenario as the Hulk's.

2. Swords of Revealing Light
a. "He possesses super-human speed, making him easily able to evade or catch bullets, and through flight he can travel to the sun and back in a matter of minutes."
This is the only mention of his speed. Now, evading bullets is not the same as crossing New York City, and travelling to the sun in a matter of minutes is no faster than light, which can go 93 million miles in 8.3 minutes. So, unless "minutes" can be specified, his speed is uncertain. Furthermore, he probably relies on acceleration to reach light-speed, and travelling in a straight line is much easier than travelling a precise distance, turning a precise angle, travelling again, and finally killing something. Therefore, the Sentry really can't speed-blitz in the way my opponent wants him to.
b. Already refuted.
c. We saw Bakura use Chain Energy on guards. That sure worked.
d. That would qualify as an attack, unless somebody else made a move to attack the Sentry, which would actually be in the form of the Dark Magician plus Mystic Box, destroying the Sentry without an actual attack.
e. So?

3. Statue of Liberty
a. With all of my research, I have found no mentioning of Sephiroth's speed being fast.
b. This is simple. He goes to a news stand and grabs a map. Time stops as he does his little raising-map-in-air thing, and as he reads the map. Seriously, time stops as Link reads maps.
c. What? Anyways, Mirror Force.
d. How will he destroy the indestructible foundation that holds the Statue of Liberty to the ground?

1. Sephiroth
a. When Link gets the Sentry's serum thanks to Collected Power, that power gap will be bridged, and Sephiroth will be doomed.
b. See argument above. And Link is the only character in the video games that will stop time while reading a map, so it's not just some video game land power. He retains it in New York City. And with Swords of Revealing Light, Sephiroth is not getting his gear back.

2. Emma
a. You seem to be implying that Kirby has a brain. Which he doesn't.
b. If she turns into diamond form, Link can fire numerous Bomb Arrows at her until he hits her weak stop (between her eyes, perhaps?).

3. Black Alice
a. Unless she has super speed, she has no choice. And Yugi can top-deck his cards, because of the heart of the cards.
b. See above.
c. Yugi doesn't have to get anywhere near Black Alice to send an army of Kuriboh.
d. But she's one of the sacrifices.
e. Each individual Kuriboh lacks the power of Multiply. That's a card that Yugi is in control of. Besides, she'd explode on contact, so we'd have some epic explosion where all of the Kuribohs and Black Alice explode.

4. Vash
a. Refuted above.
b. Refuted above.
c. Mirror Force, Magic Cylinder, etc. They can all be used to counter that. Besides, he doesn't have a gun.
d. They can easily draw cards before Vash can get to them.

5. Sentry
a. The source never says that he doesn't have the serum on him, and I wouldn't be surprised if he did. I'm going with what you said originally.
b. What makes you think that? Besides, Shadow Spell can hold him in place. It worked on Blue-Eyes Toon Dragon.
c. "Can't be countered," eh? That sounds like a no-limit fallacy. Besides, you forgot Link's Magic Armor, and his speed problem.
One more thing. Midna is hiding as Link's shadow. How do you intend on killing her?

So, in conclusion, cards work, so Yugi and Kaiba can mind-control all of Team CON, or use Collected Power and Swords of Revealing Light to make them essentially worthless. My opponent has not adequately backed up the speed-blitz attempt. He's got some work to do next round.


The best way to win any debate is to let your opponent do the work for you.

Yu-gi-oh cards.
My opponent sites the fact that Dark Bakura can use the Millennium Ring to bring cards into reality. I agree, the problem being, Bakura has the millennium ring not Yugi. There is only one episode in which Yugi gains access to the Millennium Ring but it is then stolen by two minor characters and re-acquired by Bakura.

Furthermore Yugi doesn't have access to the Millennium ring and Millennium rod simultaneously, thus he can't have the Millenium ring while he's already trying to mind control my characters with the rod.

Devastatingly, Yugi never exhibits the knowledge required to use the Millennium Ring. Dark Bakura can use it considering he's been sealed in it for thousands of years. Yugi Moto has no idea how to use it and never does.

And finally, even if this could happen we're pitting little duel monsters who can't kill one or two other duel monsters against people like Sentry and Sephiroth who have attempted to destroy worlds before. There is a minor power gap in favor of my team.... Also for cards to work, as illustrated by the example, the user must be able to see his opponents.

Speed Blitz
This happens before Yu-gi-oh could even draw a card. Thus all strategies are ineffective.

1. As stated by my source Sentry was injected with the Serum once. It made him, he doesn't bring it places with him.
2. Sephiroth is just naturally fast. As mentioned by my first source on Sephiroth he can travel quicker than the speed of light. Also the first video I'm posting shows Sephiroth (using Super Nova) transform into a meteor and travel the entire solar system in less than a minute (a feat which would have taken over an hour if he was moving as fast as light).
3. Sentry once went from the earth to the sun in back in a number of minutes. This process would take 16 minutes thus he is either faster or close to the speed of light.
4. Sentry can hear a butterflies heartbeat in Africa. Thus he will be able to know exactly where everyone is in New York.
5. Not to mention that both characters traveling the speed of light or faster gives them ample time to travel New York City and find all of my opponents characters.
6. Sentry can control light. Meaning Midna is owned because she can't live in light. But it also means that Sentry bends light around him making him completely invisible to anyone else. Thus Yugi won't know he's there and won't be able to direct cards against him.
7. Alternatively Sentry can control energy projection stronger than a super nova. Thus in the first millisecond he could just SuperNova+ New York City. This would kill everyone save him and arguably Sephiroth, and before they could react.
8. Finally, it's true, Sentry is uncounterable by my opponents team. This doesn't mean he doesn't have limits though, he was killed by the hulk once. It just means my opponent picked a really really weak team.

Mind Control
1. Millennium Items can only be used if won through a duel. Otherwise Marik would have simply taken the Millennium Puzzle from Yugi instead of dueling him.
2. This means that it was Joey's will that broke the Millennium Rod's control and not the Millennium Puzzle's power. Thereby proving that Emma Frost and the rest of my team would be able to overpower the Millennium Rod.
3. Yugi, would be mind controlled by Emma and forced to use whatever he could on his own team, while leaving New York city himself.
4. Also Yugi may absolutely not be able to use Atem. Atem is not a alter personality such as in the Hulk Case. Read the source my opponent offers. "In the Millennium World arc, Marik, Ishizu, and Odion lead Yugi and his friends to the tomb of the Pharaoh in order for Pharaoh Atem and Yugi to have a final duel"
They duel each other..... They're not the same person. My opponent can't use them both.
5. And as for change of heart and other such cards. Dark Bakura uses a simple magic card on two guards and then a simple monster card. In both cases he was able to see his opponents when using the cards. This poses a problem for Yugi because a. He doesn't know how to use the Millennium Necklace b. He doesn't have the necklace and c. He doesn't start out seeing my team.

Link and Rod:
1. Even at a hollow statue Link can't control it. He can only control three specific hollow statues.
2. Additionally the statue couldn't move from it's base because the base is "indestructible".
3. Finally time doesn't stop when Link does things. Time appears to stop so the player has time to consider what would be a quick decision on links parts. Link makes millions of decisions in the game (such as which way to walk) but time only stops in a minor fraction of them to give the player time to properly evaluate.

1. My opponents source says Kirby is a game character.
2. His arguments don't negate the fact that Kirby can't eat bosses or mini-bosses. Game or cartoon.
3. Kirby's also not fast enough to catch my characters in his mouth, especially considering he has to sit still on inhale.
4. Sure, I'll grant Kirby can have stronger attacks than enemies but it's always weaker enemies, such as waddle-doos. Not stronger.
5. Finally, Kirby is pretty vulnerable to just about any attack.

A few new strategies:

Black Alice takes them all
Black Alice can absorb multiple powers at once and whatever powers. I'd argue that she not only can gain access to the multiply card but any other card with a somewhat magical property. This means she can turn Yugi's cards all back on him.

Sentry's light
Sentry, at the beginning of the duel will intensify the light in New York city so bright that Yugi will not be able to see what cards he has in his hands. Also the cards will fade do to extreme light bleaching. This will destroy Yugi's ability to do anything.

He'll also blast the entire city with a Super Nova+ thereby killing team Pro. Should it not work he'll just hunt them down in a matter of milliseconds.

Emma Frost
Guess who doesn't need to be able to see her opponents in order to mind control them? Emma Frost, having comparable abilities to Xavier can easily stop Yugi from doing anything at any point in the round, along with the rest of team Con.

Considering the Millennium Rod must be directed at someone this puts her at a time advantage to Yugi.

Sephiroth's Materia
Sephiroth can use the Materia Reflect to cast a magic barrier on each member of team con. This would make them immune to any magic attack and reflect it back on team Con. This would also mean that mind controls would just get reflected back on team Pro.

Sephiroth also has access to the summons which means he can summon Bahamut (as demonstrated by his lesser form) and send it to giga-flare team Pro.

He can dodge bullets. Meaning he can move rather quickly. Black Alice will temporarily absorb his powers at the beginning of the fight in order to allow herself increased speed. Thereby she can avoid team Pro attacks.

Finally, if my opponent is going to continue with the idea that he can use cards in reality I'd like a question answered. Exactly what cards will Yugi be using in what order? I've seen Yugi take over a minute to use the heart of cards in order to draw a card.

Good second round. Go round three!
Debate Round No. 2


1. Yu-Gi-Oh cards

See Video 1 (3:57). Marik hands Yugi both the Millennium Ring and the Millennium Rod at the same time. My opponent mentions the Millennium Items being stolen, but that was after the Battle City arc, during the Orichalcos arc, and during the debate with iamadragon that I sourced, I specifically stated that I was using Yugi from right after the Battle City arc. So, he still has both Millennium Items.

My opponent makes it seem as if the Millennium Ring requires specific knowledge to use. However, it doesn't. There is no Millennium Items 101 course that one has to take to use Millennium Items. After stealing the Millennium Scale, Bakura was able to use it immediately, even though he had never had any experience with it before. This implies that Millennium Items are used solely through the will to use them, not intelligence in their use.

"Also for cards to work, as illustrated by the example, the user must be able to see his opponents."
Just because that is what occurred during the one example, does not mean that it is applicable to every instance. Had Bakura closed his eyes, I'm sure that it would have worked just the same.

2. Speed Blitz

1. The source doesn't say that he doesn't have it with him. Why wouldn't he have extra serum with him? You've said before that he has extra serum, and you have nothing that disproves that previous statement, so we're going with what you said before.
2. It seems that he only travels faster than light when using Super Nova. However, as can be seen at the beginning of the video, it takes him quite a while to actually launch into a Super Nova attack. And I doubt an attack that makes such a large hole in Jupiter can be contained in New York City, and being larger than New York City is against the rules.
3. Could you specify the number of minutes? It might be fifty-nine. And again, travelling in open space is easier than travelling through a maze of buildings to a specific closet in a specific building, especially when the buildings are indestructible and crashing into one of them would probably be suicidal. My opponent has not actually responded to this problem when I brought it up last round, so it has been dropped. Sentry can't speed-blitz.
4. Ah, but he still has to get there, and he does not show enough precision to make it in time.
5. I doubt that they can actually see while travelling faster than light. In fact, it is a physical impossibility by definition.
6. You again assume that Yugi can't attack the invisible, although he has attacked face-down cards before, and he attacked blindly against Panic and his darkness.
7. If they hide in an indestructible building, they survive. And can he really do that in one millisecond? And could you source Sentry's SuperNova?
8. Your speed-blitz requires too much time to set up SuperNova and more precision than either of your characters would have.

3. Mind Control

1-2. It only has to be won if being taken by force. Bakura was able to use the Millennium Ring after receiving it as a gift from his father. Joey received it as a gift from Yugi.
3. You ignore the double-mind problem.
4. Actually, Atem is an alternate personality UNTIL they are split up for the final duel.
5. Ring, not Necklace.
a. Refuted above.
b. Refuted above.
c. So?

4. Kirby
1. The canon I specified is the anime.
See Rule #4.
2. That's only a rule, however, in the game. Kirby's Inhale is much more powerful in the anime.
3. Kirby is actually in possession of super-speed, as his Wiki article says.
5. What makes you say that?

5. Black Alice
1. She can't see Yugi, since he's only sending an army of Kuriboh at her from his hiding place.
2. Kaiba's played cards without even looking at them, and still managed to top-deck. Yugi has even more top-deck heart-of-the-cards than Kaiba. And did you see the light coming FROM Bakura's card? Yu-Gi-Oh cards don't light bleach.
Again, the speed-blitzing has issues.

6. Emma Frost
1. Again, Yugi has two minds. Additionally, he can use Change of Heart to target not Emma's mind but her heart, converting her to Team PRO so that she can turn on Team CON.
Marik has controlled people without seeing them. Same goes for Yugi.

7. Sephiroth's Materia
1. Materia Reflect lacks a FF Wiki page. Care to source?
2. Collected Power. Link has your Materia Reflect. Or I can Dust Tornado your Materia Reflect away.

8. Bahamut
1. I can't find Giga Flare on Bahamut's Wiki page.
2. If Yugi and Kaiba team up to summon Dragon Master Knight, and Kaiba uses Spirit Ryu and discards the rest of his Dragons, Dragon Master Knight would easily destroy Bahamut in an epic dragon fight.

9. Vash
1. If Black Alice absorbs Vash's powers, Vash becomes useless, so Black Alice only has to be destroyed by Mystic Box, and I've essentially eliminated two of your characters.

Yugi question:
He'll use Mirror Force first to wipe out Team CON in the case of a speed blitz, and then Swords of Revealing Light, then perhaps Black Luster Soldier plus tribute cards and Polymerization for Dragon Master Knight, and then Kuriboh plus Multiply for Black Alice, and then Spell-Binding Circle, Change of Heart, Brain Control, and Winged Dragon of Ra.

So, judging by what has happened so far, here's the play by play (I think):
1. Sephiroth starts an attempt to use Super Nova.
2. Sentry considers speed-blitzing, but realizes that he isn't precise enough.
3. Yugi activates Swords of Revealing Light, stopping all of Team CON's attacks, and if Sephiroth's Super Nova works, he uses Mirror Force, destroying all of Team CON.
4. Yugi activates Collected Power, transferring all equipment to Link.
5. Link gives Yugi and Kaiba their equipment back.
6. Link injects himself with Sentry's serum.
7. Yugi uses Brain Control, taking control of Sentry.
8. Yugi uses Change of Heart, taking control of Emma Frost.
9. Kaiba uses Enemy Controller, taking control of Black Alice.
10. Yugi sacrifices the above three for the Winged Dragon of Ra.
11. Yugi uses Spell-Binding Circle to trap Sephiroth.
12. Kaiba uses Shadow Spell to trap Vash.
13. Sephiroth summons Bahamut.
14. Kaiba and Yugi summon Dragon Master Knight, which destroys Bahamut.
15. Yugi summons the Dark Magician.
16. Yugi uses Mystic Box to destroy Vash.
17. Link, with the power of the serum, defeats Sephiroth in a sword battle, as Sephiroth has no sword.
18. The Winged Dragon of Ra, with the power of Sentry, wipes out Sephiroth if necessary.

Multiple other strategies that I have mentioned can be substituted in here if need be.

Your move.


My opponent's case has a few fatal flaws.
Starting here:

1. Yu-gi-oh cards.
There are seven problems:

a. First, my opponent is quite wrong on the point about Millennium items requiring prior knowledge. For instance normal Bakura has no ability to use the Millennium Ring to summon monsters. It is only Dark Bakura, having been in the ring for thousands of years, that possesses this power.

Additionally it took Yugi years to figure out how to use the Millennium Puzzle. The idea that the Millennium Scale was usable by Bakura doesn't prove Millennium items are instantly usable. In fact the scale auto weighs the heart of the user. It doesn't require the user to do anything. In comparison, the Millennium Ring must be actively used.

b. Second, hahaha, read the text of the card that Dark Bakura uses via the Millennium Puzzle. The reason that this card had effect on the guards when Dark Bakura used it was because the card specifically targets the player and not duel monsters. The two gaurds were real people (players) and not cards (duel monsters).
This causes a problem for my opponent when we start reading the other cards:
Brain Control:
Change of Heart:
Enemy Controller:
Swords of Revealing Light:
Spell Binding Circle:

Collected Power:
(Side note, collected power only equips monsters with face up magic cards. Meaning it would neither grab Sephiroth's Materia nor would it grab Sentry vial. Those aren't magic cards. They are physical substances.)

Dust Tornado:
(Doesn't work on Materia as they are a part of Sephiroth and not a magic card.)

You'll notice all of these cards have one thing in common. They presume to effect a players "monster" or "duel monsters" in some way. Unfortunately my team my team isn't made up of five duel monsters. It's made up of five player characters on the same level as yugi himself. Which means these attacks are worthless on my characters. This is why Dark Bakura had to use a magic card that affected other players, not monsters.

c. Bakura had to be able to see the guards in able to use a card against them. Otherwise he would have been able to do it from around the corner before they ever saw him. This would also have meant that he could have throughout the entire series attained anything he wanted by using cards on people while sitting in a dark house. My opponents right this is the only example, but as the only example it's the only knowledge we have of how cards work. Thus even if the judges aren't buying my arguments you're still believing them via the example.

d. Next my opponent never addressed my point about how people like Sentry and Sephiroth are far more powerful than any of the duel cards. We're pitting people who have attempted to destroy worlds against little magical monsters and spells that affect a few other cards. My arguments was that the duel cards would have no affect on Sephiroth or Sentry because their is a power gap. If you're going to believe my opponents arguments about how dropped arguments are true then you're believing this.

e. Fifth, reflect beats back all of the magic inherent in Yugi's deck. Since Sephiroth far quicker than Yugi he can simply cast reflect on the party and thereby any sort of magically propertied attack or status change will be reflected back on the original attacker. Reflect:

f. Next, Seto Kaiba can't use cards in this duel period. Only one person has the Millennium Necklace. That person isn't Kaiba. Disregard all strategies with him.

g. finally, Yugi takes forever to use the heart of the cards to top deck cards. Meaning the order my opponent offers has possible upwards of 30 second pauses between each draw.

I think I'm giving pretty compelling reasons as to why my opponents card strategy is never going to work out. Thus at this point you can easily vote for me. Without the cards my opponent has nothing. Yet, I think that even if my opponent's cards did work I'd still be winning this debate.

2. Speed Blitz.
a. Sentry doesn't have a Serum. The wiki article says that he was injected with a Serum and that made him Sentry. I only agreed that he had a Serum in my last debate to illustrate a point because I realized I didn't need Sentry anyways. Thus, in reality, Sentry has no Serum.
b. Sephiroth can travel faster than light period as the source points out. It does not just include super nova. Additionally it doesn't take Sephiroth a while at the beginning. It simply starts the video a ways before he starts to use the attack; while it is still Cloud + Companies turn.
c. Next, I don't need to specify minutes for Sentry. Even if he takes 59 minutes he's still moving just 4x slower than the speed of light. Since he knows exactly where Yugi is he'll still make it there a long time before Yugi can even start to draw a card. Additionally he can do this using a Parabolic Arc in which he can continue accelerating. But even if I conceded he had to slow down to 1/10th of his top speed to navigate he'd still be traveling 1/40th the speed of light which would put him on top of Yugi before Yugi could draw a card. I'd also argue that Yugi will be stunned for quite awhile by being blinded.
d. Sentry doesn't need the precision nor his sight to be able to find Yugi. He knows exactly where Yugi is by hearing his first heart beat.
e. Finally, even if you, as a judge, think that Yugi might be able to get a card out before Sentry reaches him it will still be for naught. Yugi can't see Sentry because Sentry can bend light around himself. This means that Yugi would have to make an attack against something completely invisible to him. My opponent argues that Yugi does this all the time when attacking face down cards, however, facedown cards can be seen by Yugi (they show up on the battle field) and he knows that they are there. In the situation with Sentry, Yugi literally has no idea that Sentry is there. This means Yugi get's destroyed and the rest of team Pro with him.

3. Mind Control
a. The point that Millennium items can only be used after being won through a duel still stands. Bakura never "uses" the Millennium ring. On the contrary the ring uses him and corrupts him into Dark Bakura. This means that the puzzle never helped Joey and he broke free on his own accord.
b. This also means that all of my characters, especially people like Emma have the ability to break through the Millennium rod's mind control.
c. Finally, any mind control, being magical based would not work on my team as they have reflect enabled.
Ultimately this means that the best chance of any mind control happening is through Emma mind controlling Yu-gi-oh.
(Side note: Yugi and Atem are separate people. Atem, having the ability to possess Yugi's body, doesn't make him Yugi by any means. This point falls.)

Black Alice:
a. I argued that she has the ability to steal all magical powers from any Magical Base. This means that she can steal any cards powers, and since she can steal multiple powers she can steal all cards.
b. Alice's ability isn't limited to her sight. As my source states she has the ability to steal Alan Scotts powers while he was in space and she was on earth. Thus she can steal every monster and cards abilities.
c. This ultimately means my opponents cards have no power, meanwhile all the power they would have is being employed by Alice.

a. His powers in the Anime don't let him eat bosses. End of story.

a. Has destroyed cities. Dragon Master Knight has no comparable feat.
Debate Round No. 3


Final round. Let's go.

1. Yu-Gi-Oh cards

a. Note that in this case, Dark Bakura would be with Yugi, who currently holds the Millennium Ring. It would be in Dark Bakura's best interests that Yugi survives this war in order to continue the series, so Dark Bakura would most definitely loan Yugi this power if necessary.

The Millennium Puzzle is obviously a special case, as it is a puzzle which must be put together, as opposed to a ring.
"On the other hand, Bakura can now use the Millennium Scale to fuse his 'Diabound' and 'Flying Eyeball' into an even more powerful monster!"
He used the Scale the instant he obtained it.

b. However, the card's effect (removing Life Points) didn't even come into play. It's fairly obvious that in the anime, the picture is more important than the card's effect itself. Additionally, the Millennium Ring can allow Yugi to transfer the souls of Team CON to cards, as Bakura had done, so the cards would most definitely work. Finally, we come to Collected Power. For this, I would like to note two things. One, in Collected Power's only anime appearance (, it still did more than its effect, transferring the ghost that inhabited Yugi's monsters as well as Equip Magic Cards. Second, in the Virtual World, Joey used Trap Hole to deter a crowd running after him, even though there were no monsters in sight. ( Pegasus was the one who added text to the Egyptian shadow magic, and we're going beyond what Pegasus wrote. Therefore, reading card effects is almost a waste of time. "Monster" is just a reference to any target.

c. Well, why would Bakura choose to wait from behind a corner? Also, there were others throughout the anime with Millennium Items, and it wouldn't surprise me if they too could summon monsters.

d. No. Your argument was, "There is a minor power gap in favor of my team...." You never actually argued that this power gap would grant Team CON immunity to the power of Magic Cards, and there's no reason to assume that it would.

e. For one thing, the Sephiroth page makes no reference to Reflect, and the Reflect page makes no reference to Sephiroth, so I doubt that Sephiroth even has such ability. For another, Reflect is specifically listed as a spell, so Kaiba's De-Spell card should work wonders.

f. Kaiba can hand Yugi his deck. Problem solved.

g. Forever? For one thing, you lack sources. For another, Heart of the Cards isn't just something you have to spend time to just use. It's just the force that gets Yugi his top-decks. He top-decks cards even without saying "Heart of the Cards, guide me..." For reference, Yugi picked up Mystic Box and Living Arrow against Pegasus without saying anything relevant, and against Marik, he didn't have to do anything to top-deck Slifer the Sky Dragon.

2. Speed Blitz

a. The Wiki article doesn't say that he doesn't have the serum, either.
b. After the attack started (it looks as if that would be when the screen says "Super Nova" at 0:05), it took 40 seconds to reach just Pluto, and thirty seconds on top of that to reach the sun. Plus, the video probably skipped a fair bit of flying time.
c. You still drop my argument about precision. If I had a car that could travel 5,000 mph, it would still take me a while to get through a maze of buildings. Why? Because I'd have to actually turn, and I'd crash into a wall if I wasn't careful. That's been my argument this entire time, and you've dropped it twice.
d. I know where the end of the maze is. I still have to get there.
e. My opponent still makes the argument that Yugi is attacking blind, completely ignoring the Panic example. Additionally, Mirror Force would no doubt work against an invisible enemy as long as the attack is there, so any attack launched by Team CON would still be suicidal. As for being stunned, Yugi can very easily close his eyes. So, instead of Yugi and Team PRO going down, Yugi uses Mirror Force to destroy Sentry and all of Team CON along with him.

3. Mind Control
a. On that note, Dark Yugi still inhabited the Puzzle, and activated its power to help Joey overcome the power of the Millennium Rod.
b. No, because they don't have any Millennium Items.
c. Again, there's De-Spell and the Wiki errors. Additionally, Yugi can use Mystical Refpanel, and Reflect only works once, so the second time, it would work.
Side Note: They're separate people as much as the Hulk and Bruce Banner are separate people. They share the same body, and switch between each other, in much the same way. My opponent seems to agree that the Hulk is legal, and so did MTGandP, the creator of UTW. Therefore, by example, Yami Yugi is legal.

Black Alice:
a. Magical Base? What? By the way, the Wiki article says that she can take powers from beings, but cards are not beings.
b. The Wiki article seems to disagree with you again. She no doubt looked up into space.
c. The above two problems disagree with you.

a. You don't seem to be backing that statement very well.

a. Dragon Master Knight almost defeated and heavily injured Zorc, and Zorc had the power to destroy the world. That is a comparable feat.

Now, for the play-by-play, in a worst-case scenario for me assuming that many of my opponent's arguments hold true (as seen by ?s, so if you agree with me, you can remove those statements), except the ones that can't:

1. Sephiroth gets a Super Nova started somewhere in the Solar System.
2. Sentry speed-blitzes, epically crashing into a building. UNDO, for my opponent's sake.
3. Sephiroth casts Reflect on Team CON?
4. Kaiba throws Yugi a De-Spell card.
5. Yugi activates De-Spell, neutralizing the Reflect. (Note that Reflect doesn't reflect all spells, and a spell that kills spells probably would not be reflected anyways.)
6. Yugi activates Swords of Revealing Light, stopping Team CON from attacking.
7. Yugi uses the Millennium Rod, taking control of every member of Team CON. He uses them as sacrifices to the Winged Dragon of Ra.
Now let's assume that that didn't just work, even though it did.
7. Yugi activates Collected Power, transferring all equipment to Link.
8. Yugi and Kaiba take back their equipment from Link.
9. Kaiba tosses Yugi Enemy Controller.
10. Yugi uses Brain Control, Change of Heart, and Enemy Controller to take control of Black Alice, Emma Frost, and Sentry.
11. Yugi sacrifices the three of them to the Winged Dragon of Ra.
12. Sephiroth summons Bahamut.
13. The Winged Dragon of Ra knocks out Bahamut.
14. Kirby eats Bahamut.
15. Yugi binds Sephiroth with Spell-Binding Circle, and Vash with Kaiba's Shadow Spell.
16. The Winged Dragon of Ra destroys Vash.
17. Yugi and Kaiba summon Dragon Master Knight.
18. Link applies the serum that he got from Sentry to himself.
19. By now, the Super Nova has finally arrived to hit Earth. Yugi activates Mirror Force, so that any survivors of Team CON are destroyed, and all of Team PRO is safe. UNDO step 1, for my opponent's sake.
20. Together, the Winged Dragon of Ra, Serum-empowered Link, Dragon Master Knight, and Bahamut Kirby utterly destroy the swordless, magically binded Sephiroth.
21. If he's still alive after all of that?, the Winged Dragon of Ra can go into Phoenix mode and destroy Sephiroth. He's not going to survive that.

Note that there are still other strategies that I could not fit here, such as Kuriboh (which my opponent dropped). My opponent has no strategies that could eliminate Team PRO with the exception of speed-blitzing (which includes Super Nova-ing), which I have shown him to be unable to do, using Bahamut (Mystic Box FTW), and using Black Alice (Kuriboh). What's especially detrimental to him is that after the Sentry is eliminated, he has no other characters that can defeat Midna the shadow.

Thanks for this debate, Yraelz. It was great.


Let's finish this!

1. Yu-gi-oh

a. Dark Bakura wouldn't appear. Why? Because Yugi is wearing the Millennium Puzzle which as my opponent already mentioned can break other millennium item's powers. Secondarily he's a game player meaning if he wanted to continue on in the world he'd allow yugi to lose thereby passing the ring on to someone awesome on my team. Finally even if Dark Bakura could try to take over Yugi, Yugi would be able to fight back. Buying my team time.

Additionally the scale's powers are mildly easy to use seeing as they simply balance whatever is inside of them. Also it would make sense that Dark Bakura could use the scales seeing as he is thousands of years old and might possess the knowledge. Finally I'm the only person in this debate round proving that the Millennium Ring uniquely is hard to use through my warrants on normal Bakura not being able to.

Yugi can't use the scales.

b. I think my opponent is just wrong about the cards effects. He argues that chain energy did not do the effect that the card said it should. I definitely think it did, the card drained 500 life points and then by binding them with a ring. Moments later, after the ring drains the point, they are let go and they show up in time for Dark Bakura to summon some more monsters.

Next Yugi would have to know how to use the Millennium ring to transfer cards to souls. And he'd have to see my team.

My opponent argues collected power did more than it says in it's appearance. However if you read his source I'd argue it doesn't. It just removes equipped magic. Plus Sephiroth doesn't have any cards equipped period.

Finally my opponent states that in the virtual world Joey used trap hole on nothing in particular. I'd argue that the virtual world doesn't have the same rules as the real world and thus doesn't hold any bearing on what would happen in New York City. It's a make believe reality with it's own rules.

This ultimately means that my opponents cards only work.... on monsters, destroying the majority of his strategy.

c. The only piece of evidence we have for anyone using a card was when they could see their opponent. I'd argue that this intuitively makes sense, and as the only piece of evidence is devastating to my opponent. Sentry is never seen and thus slaughters Yugi.

d. My opponent misportrays my argument by only citing half of it. My complete argument was, "even if this could happen we're pitting little duel monsters who can't kill one or two other duel monsters against people like Sentry and Sephiroth who have attempted to destroy worlds before." I then expounded this in my last speech to mean the duel cards would be powerless. My characters are simply too powerful to be affected.

e. Sephiroth being the most powerful character of FF7 has been known to have a wide assortment of Materia. He uses the black materia to summon meteor. He throws a destruct materia at Cloud. Considering reflect is a common materia and easily attainable I'd argue he easily has it (especially when he has the incredibly rare materia).

And yes, it's true, Sephiroth's Materia is magic. It however, is not a card. And more importantly Kaiba, not having a Millennium Ring, can't use his cards. This means Sephiroth casts reflect on his party thereby guarding them from any yu-gi-oh magic.

Finally, Reflect bounces back magic spells. While some spells have the ability to break it those are spells that specifically are intended to negate it. My opponents cards are not.

f. Sure, why not? The problem being that any use by Yugi of cards is magic. Since my opponent, in the order of things, allows sephiroth to get reflect off, this would just mean that Yugi de-spells himself. Also, de-spell destroys spell cards, not magic Materia.

Speed Blitz. ^.^
My opponent claims I've dropped his argument about finding my way through the maze for a second time. On the contrary I offered a pretty sweet explanation, which my opponent dropped, and will be his undoing:

"Additionally he can do this using a Parabolic Arc in which he can continue accelerating. But even if I conceded he had to slow down to 1/10th of his top speed to navigate he'd still be traveling 1/40th the speed of light which would put him on top of Yugi before Yugi could draw a card."

I argue that Sentry could travel in a parabolic arc. This would be easy in New York because it would just mean he travels on a circular path over buildings. My opponent never makes any response.

But even if the judges aren't giving me that argument I make massive concessions in my last speech that go ignored. I argued that even if Sentry had to slow down to 1/10th of his normal top speed he'd still be going 1/40th the speed of light. This, would put Sentry on top of team Pro in less than a second, since he knows where they are. He is not obligated to travel through the maze, considering he can fly.

Which means, to win this round, all I have to do is negate my opponent other claims:
a. The wiki article says a serum was used on him one time to give him super powers. That's all.
e. Sentry's blinding light would hit Yugi before he could close his eyes. He'd be stunned by the sheer intensity. Closing his eyes wold do nothing, which would also mean he wouldn't play cards because he is dazed. Finally, I don't think his cards do anything to Sentry since he is invisible and not a duel monster.

Mind control
a. Evidence? This is a massive change of argument. I'm pretty sure Joey Single handedly overcomes it.
b. Even if the Millennium Rod could unconditionally mind control all except others with Millennium powers, I'd argue that Emma Frost is so powerful in her telepathic abilities that she would still override it.
c. Nope, not true at all. Yugi can't use cards against players, just duel monsters. And Reflect works throughout the battle. Reflect is a status effect spell, it stays indefinitely, or till a new battle.
Side Note: Atem started out as a separate person and is a separate person at the end. The Hulk and Bruce Banner were never separate, same person, different personalities. Atem is illegal.
d. Two minds would just make it a moment more difficult for Emma anyways.

Black Alice
a. My opponent attempts to argue that Black Alice can only use her powers on beings. If that be the case then my opponent is still completely screwed as it means that she steals Yugi's ability to use the heart of cards. Secondarily though I'd argue that the cards proper are Yugi's power thus she has the ability to steal those powers. I'd argue this is especially true if you're believing my opponents argument about the cards doing "things" that they don't even say they do. I'd say that part of the "hidden" clause must be that these cards are "beings".
b. Black Alice most certainly did not look up into space. First, she can't see that far. Second, she was in a prison. Prisons have roofs.
c. Black Alice steals the abilities of at least Yugi and probably his cards also. This quickly leads to Yugi's defeat either way.

a. Logic. What would be the point of any Kirby anime or game if he could simply eat the boss? He can't eat bosses or mini-bosses. He can't eat my characters.

a. Would be a good point, except Zorc is in the shadow realm which allows the Yugi Cards to be real entities. b. Bahamut literally destroys a real city. c. The source says nothing about him having the power to destroy the world, just that Zorc tries. d. Finally Dragon Master Knight ultimately loses....

As a last note, I'd like to point out that my opponent never offers a scenario for Sentry dying. He says that Sentry will epically crash into a building but that still leaves him alive to find and destroy team Pro.

Thank you also for the debate Mongeese!
Debate Round No. 4


Judges, I have faith in you, as mandated by Logical-Master.

Yraelz, thanks for this great debate. You put together a great team.

Vote PRO!


I'll have faith in judges as well. ^.^

Mongeese, thank you as well, it was definitely very fun.

Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 5
61 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Yraelz 3 years ago
This was one fun debate!
Posted by Logical-Master 3 years ago
""I was mistaken in my battle with Acer. Sentry does not have a Serum on him. He does not need to apply it constantly, it was a one time deal."

bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Not true. Most of my errors in this round were completely excluded words or grammar errors. A spell check wouldn't catch either of those things. Additionally I sometimes trade out words with synonyms which a spell check wouldn't bother looking for.

I'm also not sure why voting someone down for not bothering to spell check is salient.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
"Doesn't often catch grammar errors and some words."
However, it does catch the errors that would otherwise be noticed by voters. If it got by a decent SpellCheck, it will probably get by the judges.

"Plus, you're proposing that people be voted down because they failed to hit a spell check button."
Not "failed." "Didn't bother."
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
Each voting category is important for its own reason. But in this debate, I have judged that the other categories are inconsequential.
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Doesn't often catch grammar errors and some words. Plus, you're proposing that people be voted down because they failed to hit a spell check button.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
There's always SpellCheck...
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
But then you'd exclude people attempting to learn different languages. You'd exclude people with mild handicaps or people who had bad spelling teachers. I'm not sure they are very important to who wins a debate.

Also, MtGrandP only thinks that the argument category is important.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
But S/G is a valid voting category. People have lost debates due to their spelling and grammar. And those things are important to a debate.
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Eh.... I don't think so. That'd be kind of a strange reason to be voted down.
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