The Instigator
feverish
Pro (for)
Winning
16 Points
The Contender
Kefka
Con (against)
Losing
5 Points

LM Classic round III Ultimate Team War Feverish v Kefka

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/9/2009 Category: Arts
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,052 times Debate No: 9455
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (35)
Votes (4)

 

feverish

Pro

Hello and welcome to indestructible NYC for another Ultimate Team War.

Many thanks to LM (tournament guvnor), Kefka (my worthy opponent), to judges and to readers.

In this battle I will be using my original team from my round 2 battle with Patsox: Monkey, Dracula, Ironman, Predator and Boba Fett.

Character descriptions and links can be found on this previous debate:
http://www.debate.org...

This first round is intended merely as an introduction, for Kefka to describe his team a little (he has had a bye up till now, so we haven't seen his team in action yet) and for both of us to describe how our characters will be spending their preparation time before the battle as agreed upon.

The actual battle will not start until round 2 when I post my opening strategy.

PREP TIME:

Prep time is one day as pointed out in the fascinating LM classic DDO Fans Wiki page: http://ddofans.com...

Tony Starks is an inventive and engineering genius with a vast array of high-powered armoured suits that he is used to manufacturing and modifying at extremely short notice.

Working alongside Fett and Pred, he should be able to synthesise numerous elements of their alien technology with his own inventions and kit my team out with even more powerful devices than they already possess.

Some may suggest that there would be communication problems between Tony and the extra-terrestrials but the genius and mind-reading of Dracula should help to make the exchange of information and ideas fluid and intuitive.

Additionally, Monkey's super-speed, strength and spells should also make the physical process of developing the technology much more rapid and productive than it would be otherwise.

Before the day is over, my three armoured characters will retain the unique functions of their own armour, equipment and weaponry but also share the following features:

The Predator's cloaking device that makes them almost invisible.
Enhanced speed and strength (F and P will not be on the same level as Ironman but still very fast and powerful).
Linked communication systems that will allow my team to track each other's locations as well as the location of others on the battlefield.
Psi-shield for defense against mental attacks.
Command controls for Slave 1, for the Predator's mothership and for Predator explosive devices.
Flight.
Defensive force fields.
The Predator's Point Defense System technology which tracks and neutralises incoming projectiles. (Kind of like the proposed US missile defence system but close range.)

While the rest of my team, under Starks' supervision, are constructing and modifying these devices, Dracula starts to reach his mental powers out to the rats of New York and the surrounding areas that are instinctively loyal to him.

Under his direction the millions of rats begin transporting and concealing a number of Predator explosives and booby traps at strategic points around the city. Tony is a Long Island native so after reading his mind, Dracs soon knows the city inside out and can direct his rodent army accordingly. The rats also congregate in strike teams coordinated throughout NYC.

I consider ordering Monkey to start cloning himself from his chest hair shortly before the battle but decide against it.

I believe the deadline is approaching so I'll leave it there and hand over to Kefka to introduce his team and their preparations.

Thanks.
Kefka

Con

Thank you for the debate LM and good luck to Feverish, my esteemed opponent.

I have had a bye up until now, so I haven't yet had a chance to introduce my team. My lineup is: Kefka (FF6), Anima (FFX), Demon Eyes Kyo (Samurai Deeper), Itachi (Naruto), and my personal favorite, Guts (Berserk).

1) Kefka:

The main antagonist from Final Fantasy 6 and notorious cynic, nihilist, sadist, and ganker of Espers. He was abandoned by his parents and beaten as a child in an orphanage, so he has some issues. He hates everyone in this battle, even his own teammates a little, but tolerates them since they will help him kill everyone else on the other team. A former common foot soldier, he became almost god-like by absorbing the powers of many, many Espers (Aeons) and after gaining enough, had become revered as the Angel of Death (As seen in the final battle in Final Fantasy 6) and a "God of Magic", because he controls all known magic. But, he was defeated by a gang of a wild child, a king, a half human half esper thing, and some other funky characters, so I wouldn't necessarily classify him as a "God".

Abilities (Most important)-

Ultima- The most powerful move in most final fantasy games; it ignores defense and deals catastrophic non- elemental damage.
Light of Judgment - Smites those who do not accept him as ruler of Earth.
Forsaken (Allusion is obvious) - Highest magical damage move in the game.

2) Anima:
Arguably the strongest Aeon in the game, Anima is the spirit of the mother of Seymour Guado (A major antagonist in Final Fantasy X). She, like Kefka, has issues; so therefore is depressed and hence darker and obviously cooler than the other team. She became a final aeon when she offered herself to her son, Seymour, during his pilgrimage to attain the Final Summoning (FFX storyline).

Abilities:
Pain- The sorrow of the world is cast at you..almost always an instant kill move (Unless the opponent is immune to instant death moves, which is trademark in Final Fantasy...so if characters are not from Final Fantasy, who's to say they don't die instantly?)
Oblivion- Drags you down to hell where you are beaten like the devil's pi�ata and then hell explodes...end result = you dead.

3) Demon Eyes Kyo - Main character of the manga Samurai Deeper Kyo. Has an insane blood lust and has little regard as to who he kills, but is able to control this slightly thanks to Muramasa, his master. The last remnant of the Mibu Clan, and also known as the Thousand Slayer, having killed 1,000 men in the battle of Sekigahara. Uses the sword style of Mumyo Jinpu Ryu Satsujin Ken. Kyo is fast beyond imagine, being able to slice musket balls to pieces and outmaneuvering opponents who could ascend bullet time speed. His awareness, because of his samurai training, is also unmatched; able to use Maai (the space between one's self and an opponent) to form a spider web of Ki; if someone enters this "web", Kyo can immediately sense where this person is.

Abilities (He has a lot, but I'll name a few)
Suzaku- Summons a legendary red phoenix with unimaginable speed and power of flames; the technique can also revive itself, hence the legend of the phoenix.
Shin - Creates the illusion of the opponent's worst fear and kills him. End of story.
Kouryou - Summons the Four Gods and as they attack simultaneously, they create a superior beast god; it takes the form of the dragon god Kouryou. Dragon God > you.

4) Itachi Uchiha
One of the last remaining members of the Uchiha clan in the manga Naruto. He, like a lot of my members, has emotional problems... 1. He killed his entire clan, including his mother and father, but spared his brother Sasuke (only because of his love for him) 2. Is just generally pissed at he world for making him what he is. He is pure awesomeness because he loves his brother so much, he made sure that Sasuke would always be safe so that he could enact revenge and kill Itachi, all in order for Sasuke to become stronger. So enough background (though background information portrays just how cool someone is and cool = better...obviously), here is what makes him even cooler...

Abilities

Mangekyo Sharingan- Heightened analytical abilities which enable him to copy any move the opponent makes, and use it against him/her. Possessing the evolved form of Sharingan, he is also able to use the moves-

Tsukuyomi- Traps an opponent in an illusory realm and allows him to torture the victim for what seems like days, through various means (Repeated stabbing, beating, etc), in mere moments.

Amaterasu - Black flames that burn until the opponent is reduced to ashes.

Susanoo- Summons a massive ethereal warrior that attacks on behalf of the user and uses Yato no Kagami (A barrier) to protect him from ALL attacks.

5) Guts- Main character of the manga Berserk. Raised as a mercenary and a legendary fighter. Has encountered unimaginable horrors: Was raped as a child, betrayed by his best friend Griffith when he sacrificed his entire mercenary Band of the Hawk to ascend to Godhood and as a result Guts watched nearly every one of his friends slaughtered and torn to pieces. To add to his anxiety, he then watched the woman he loved get raped by the Demi god form of Griffith and witnessed their child turned into an abomination. Because of these horrors, he is an unstoppable berserk that doesn't give up even when fate (causation) is pitted against him. Don't mess with this guy..

Gear/Abilities -
Dragon Slayer - A sword typically referred to as a huge slab of iron, since it stands 7 feet tall, 12 inches wide, and an inch thick at its center. He can swing this with extreme speed, accuracy, and skill. Basically, you don't mess with this thing. The sword, if you can call it that, after killing so many Apostles (demons) is cursed with the ability slice through opponents of non-corporeal nature.

Prosthetic Arm- Can contain fire knives, miniature bombs, a dagger, and even a repeating crossbow.

And finally his best piece....the Berserker Armor - An ancient, cursed armor that enables the bearer to overcome emotional, mental, and physical limitations (eliminating mental stress and completely negating any concept of pain). The armor can also pierce the bearer's body to reinforce broken bones, enabling the ascension of normal means of endurance and negating the fatal effect of blood loss.
Debate Round No. 1
feverish

Pro

Hi Kefka, great to meet your team and good luck in the debate.

I wasn't familiar with any of these characters before as I've never played any Final Fantasy games or read these manga but I've taken the time to do some research. I don't know if you intended to provide sources yourself but I managed to find the Wiki pages.

---

I will henceforth refer to my opponent as either just Con or as Captain Kefka to avoid confusion with his synonymous team member.

Before describing my initial strategies I will discuss the members of Captain Kefka's team and the way in which he has presented them.

---

1) Kefka:

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...

Con:

No, from what I can see he only becomes a god at the end of the story. So as my opponent seems to be acknowledging that the tournament rules forbid those regarded as gods or anyone with virtual omnipotence it is clear that this is Kefka from earlier in the storyline when he has not achieved his Angel of Death or God of Magic status and is not in his EX mode (god form).

Con:

Quite a vague description by my opponent. The Final Fantasy Wiki describes this as "an orb of energy that explodes over a wide area" it also lists other attacks with higher CP that are not obtained till a higher level. Captain Kefka will need to explain how this attack "ignores defense".

Forsaken seems like a powerful move but I note that the orbs can only turn to track targets in EX mode.

Light of Judgement is apparently even more powerful than Forsaken but only available in EX mode.

---

2) Anima:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...

Con: <"obviously cooler than the other team">

Come on now, who's cooler than Boba Fett?

Pain <"almost always an instant kill move (Unless the opponent is immune to instant death moves, which is trademark in Final Fantasy...so if characters are not from Final Fantasy, who's to say they don't die instantly?">

Interesting logic. So which is the actual trademark, 'instant kill' or 'instant death'?

It seems to me that there are many such attacks in all fiction as well as in reality.

Shooting someone in the head, dropping a bomb on them or many other mundane methods of killing are all examples of instant kill moves.
My characters are indeed from other worlds but I think it is up to my opponent to prove why any attack would automatically kill them.

Oblivion: <"Drags you down to hell where you are beaten like the devil's pi�ata and then hell explodes...end result = you dead.">

Um, this battle takes place in a deserted and indestructible version of real life New York. For this move to be effective Captain Kefka must prove the real life existence of Hell and The Devil. Quite a burden.

I also believe that teleporting opponents out of the city is not permitted in this tournament.

---

3) Demon Eyes Kyo -
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Con:<"Kyo is fast beyond imagine">

This assumes a limit on my own and others imagination which I'm not convinced applies. The above bullet-speed feats described do not suggest that my imagination has been surpassed and I have much faster characters (especially Monkey who can cover 54,000 km in one near instant leap.

Con: <"His awareness, because of his samurai training, is also unmatched">

While it may be unmatched in the context of its own manga (and Wiki does seem to agree with my opponent on this) this in no way means that any of, or for that matter, ALL of my team couldn't match it.

If it is merely the result of samurai training then I think my technology and magic assisted team should be able to match it easily.

As neither gods nor extra team members are permitted I don't think powers that involve summoning gods can reasonably be used either.

---

4) Itachi Uchiha
http://en.wikipedia.org...

His powers seem to stretch the limit of street-level quite a bit so I'm going to assume they are more limited than Con's descriptions suggest.

<"Susanoo- Summons a massive ethereal warrior that attacks on behalf of the user and uses Yato no Kagami (A barrier) to protect him from ALL attacks.>

Summoning extra entities is questionable itself but specifying that powers have no limit is clearly against the rules. It can't stop all attacks and it will have to be proved that it can stop any.

---

5) Guts-
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Street-level characters are defined amongst other things by the type of foes they fight. If he's really defeated so many powerful demons I'm not sure he qualifies but I'll take pity on the rape victim and let him play.

=======

THE BATTLE:

I note that my opponent has chosen not to make use of the prep time made available to him.

+0.01 seconds.

Kyo is fast but Monkey is faster and he can see through buildings. Spotting Kyo he flips across the city and fells the demon samurai with a single blow of his magical staff.

+0.05 seconds.

Ironman's Extremis elixir enhanced reflexes kick in and he flies up above the city. His heat, motion and other sensory devices instantly locate Captain Kefka's team. He begins sniping them with his unibeam and pulse generators while his comm link transfers the data of their location to Pred and Fett's helmet tracking units.

+0.3 seconds.

Prompted by their helmet devices Pred and Fett detonate the Predator remote bombs and plasma mines (installed by the rats throughout the city) closest to Team Con and begin bombarding them with concussion bombs and laser cannons from Slave 1.

+0.7 seconds.

By this point all of Team Con will almost certainly have been destroyed but I will not let my team take this for granted and the plan continues.

+1 second.

Dracula summons the thickest of fogs which rapidly descends over the opposing end of New York. This fog will in no way hinder the visual devices of my armoured characters but will prevent any of Team Con that have somehow survived this far from doing... anything much really. Apart from picking their own nose.

Dracs also makes sure this fog stops just above ground level so his rodent army are not hampered.

+1.1 seconds.

There's a fair chance that immortal, stone Monkey will have survived the explosions and while the smoke from them may annoy him slightly he will still be able to see through the fog and locate any other possible survivors. I expect his search to be in vain.

+1.2 seconds.

My armoured combatants swoop down over the city using all their detection gear to search for any conceivable sign of life bigger than a rat but without a monkey's tail. Again I expect their search to be fruitless but should they find anyone they are doubly invisible through fog and cloaking devices and can quickly dispose of any opponent from a significant range.

+1.5 seconds.

The rats move in to feast on the corpses.

====

Thank you.
Kefka

Con

Feverish has given an interesting and fun filled response. Thank you very much!

(By the way, I like Captain Kefka....it's catchy haha)

Now....

Clarifications on my team:

1) Kefka

I do forfeit the fact that he must be in EX mode to be considered a "god", which may lower his potency a little, but I'm sure he's still beast enough to show Bram Stoker's bat boy up.

Ultima, as Feverish has pointed it out, is the dispersion of energy orbs over a wide area. If you read the cited source, the orbs can still track without EX mode.

"Ignores Defense" - "Ultima, the strongest spell the player can learn, only has 150 magic power by comparison. However, Forsaken does not ignore defense like Ultima does, limiting its potential power." - http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...

- I would define ignoring defense, in regards to not taking into account magical/physical defense. Saying "all defense" would break the "No limits" rule, but I'm not sure

2) Anima

Pain- "Her special attack, Pain, is exceedingly powerful and can, in some cases, cause instant death to the enemy." - http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...

Instant Death - Since there is nothing in Feverish's team that presents an "Immunity to Instant Death" attribute. I claim that the world's sorrow corrupts their soul/heart/fiber of being and destroys them. Concluding in the complete elimination from the match.

Oblivion- This is true that you cannot leave the city, so I will argue that when "brought to hell"..they are trapped in an illusion of being pitted against the inner devil of Anima (Which in Jungian Psychology is one of two things: One's inner self and sub conscious as opposed to outward persona. Or the female presence in every man/woman's psyche...possibly some twisted Oedipus complex?) So there is no devil beating you like a pinata, but rather both the victim's own psyche (resulting in permanent incapacitation or death) and the physical beating from a big mutha truckin' demon like Aeon.

3) Kyo - Since it's not specifically defined how fast he really moves, I could argue that he needs not to move faster than higher than bullet speed to face the inferior foes in the Manga. I'll argue he can move (not in a single leap, but rather in footwork) just as fast as El Monkey King.

Awareness - I apologize but nothing beats the training of a warrior of one of the greatest cultures in human history. Technology and Magic cannot surpass the blood and sweat of an unwavering youth. A fun little hypothetical scenario to test brains (technology) (magic, since it's the extension of one's mind) vs practice/training/etc. A genius like adolescent may be able to derive integrals left and right, but when it comes to dealing with one of the greatest mysteries of our world, women, he is surpassed by the slightly experienced teenager who has been through enough relationships/rejections to emotionally overcome and better handle situations with the opposite sex. Thus, experience > brains (to a certain extent, which in this situation, Kyo is the victor).

As to the summoning of a "Dragon God', I argue that it is merely an illusion of a God (since you would have to argue that gods can or can't exist), and it is really just an extension of The Thousand Slayer's conscious, just as his sword, in Bushido, is the extension of one's arm.

4) Itachi

It is true I broke the rules by stating it protects from ALL attacks, my apologies. Though, in the manga the Susanoo barrier does protect him from the force of a lightning strike during his final battle with Sasuke. First, prove your attack is greater than that of atoms clashing at the speed of light. /Kefka laugh

http://www.onemanga.com...

-----------------------------------------------------

Now for the actual battle.

+0.01 seconds

He is technically faster, in regards to the time it takes to leap a great distance, but in the nano- seconds it takes for El Rey De Monkey to leap, Kyo's superior Maai awareness senses a "disturbance in the force" and positions his sword exactly where Monkey intended to land, thus ramming into a katana at 54,000 km. As he is so nicely jumping into the sword, Kyo then, in speeds unobservable, slices Monkey into pieces.

Kyo winks and laughs at the pile of flesh.

+0.05 seconds

As Ironman leaps into the air, Itachi gazes up and meets the eyes of Ironman, as he is probably looking towards the team he intended to use his technology to track. Even a helmet filled with intricate technology cannot halt the sway of the Sharingan. Ironman is put through a trial byItachi's Genjutsu, http://www.leafninja.com..., and in his mind, isrepeatably stabbed thousands of times in what seems like days (though is really the time pass of but a firing of a brain neuron) by the apparitions of his own team members; his mind is unable to save it from itself and Ironman falls to the ground, suffering brain trauma. This is an overkill considering the emotional trauma faced by Uchiha's gaze.

+ .3 seconds

(If somehow the signal and coordinates were sent to Pred and Fett's link coms) Itachi uses Susanoo. Kyo is already slicing the fragments of the bombs into harmless fragments. Kefka casts Protectaga on himself (3rd form of the spell Protect)...silly explosions of fire and shrapnel are a joke. Gut's Berserker Armor can withstand a hit from this guy http://berserk.wikia.com... : So I don't think silly plasma explosions are a problem. And Anima just cries in her emo chains as the futile fire and plasma energies singe her already, self inflicted, cut up body.

+.7 seconds

The thought process between Feverish's assumption of our deaths and his next action at 1 second, is costly indeed. Itachi uses the Sharingan to replicate Dracula's mind controlling power; first rendering the army out of his control and then tracing his position; Anima then, sensing the true sorrow of Dracula's heart amidst the coldness and lack of empathy, uses Pain to instantly cause the death of an undead being as his heart explodes.

+1 seconds

This leaves only Mr Fett and poor little Predator all alone. Armed with only technology, I'm sure their endeavor won't succeed for much longer. Guts gets his turn as he travels towards Mr. Predator, after receiving his position from the millions of eyes of the rats now controlled by Itachi. When reaching Predator, they engage in a mexican standoff where all of Pred's weapons laughably deflect from the Berserker Armor as Guts brings down the 7 foot long Dragon Slayer and cleaves Predator in half.

Kefka has already casted Ultima in the direction of Fett and Predator (In case two pieces isn't enough). I'm not sure there is any way for Fett to escape as he is being tracked by the orbs of energy. But, if he somehow does, after killing Predator, Guts begins heading towards Fett (if he wasn't already quite near to Pred); as does Kefka, Kyo, and Itachi. The rest is but a game of cat and mouse.

Post match - Kefka is found laughing maniacally, while Kyo and Guts discuss sword fighting. Anima is found in a lonely corner, and Itachi is seen nearby reminiscing of his dirty past. These guys have issues, but they become oh so good friends after helping each other kill an Alien, a mercenary, a old bag of bones vampire, an MIT graduate player, and a old Chinese guy.
Debate Round No. 2
feverish

Pro

Thanks to Con for his valiant attempt to withstand my team's assault. It won't work of course and I'll explain exactly why in due course.

CAPTAIN KEFKA'S TEAM.

1) Kefka:

So it is agreed that Kefka is in his weaker pre-EX Mode form and can't use Light of Judgement.

The source does not actually mention Ultima orbs tracking targets at all. It is the description of the Forsaken attack which says: "In EX Mode, the orbs turn in the air to track opponents." It seems that the orbs created by Ultima don't track opponents.

2) Anima:

Instant death - "can, in some cases, cause instant death to the enemy" =/= 'will automatically cause instant death to the member's of Team Pro'.

Especially when you consider that two of my characters are classed as immortal and the other three have armour and force fields way beyond anything in the FF universe.

3) Kyo:

Speed - Captain Kefka acknowledges that "it's not specifically defined how fast he really moves" but then goes on to suggest that his footwork is as fast as Monkey's.
By his own admission there is absolutely no foundation for this argument and he even goes on to admit that Monkey is "technically faster" at the start of the battle.

There is no doubt in my mind that Sun Wu Kong is significantly faster than Demon Eyes Kyo in terms of reaction time and movement.
I have given an example of the Monkey King's speed but Con has failed to do the same for his character. To further compare these two characters objectively, Kyo fights armies of samurai, Monkey fights armies of gods and demons.

Awareness - Con says "nothing beats the training of a warrior of one of the greatest cultures in human history."

This is clearly not true or the teams in this tournament would be made up of samurai, roman centurions and Egyptian warriors. The main point of the street-level character distinction is between human level abilities and those that are more powerful. Demon Kyo has some superhuman abilities but as Con maintains that it is the result of human level training, his awareness is clearly not one of them.

Con's analogy comparing human level brains and experience in the very separate fields of Academia and relationships has zero relevance when comparing the combat abilities of human experience v super-human powers.

Summoning gods - Please link to a document describing the dragon god as a mere illusion if you intend to use this attack.

4) Itachi:

Summoning extra entities is not allowed so no to Susanoo, allowing this would also definitely invalidate Itachi's status as street-level.

Captain Kefka has not yet explained why a character with such powerful abilities should be regarded as street-level at all and I am growing increasingly sceptical. If this is not proven in this round I will call for Itachi's disqualification.

=====

THE BATTLE:

Basically my opponent suggests his team can react and respond faster than my team, even though I have presented clear reasons (and examples) for my team's speed and he has not. He assumes that his own team can react and move much faster than the evidence suggests. There is no way characters with near human level reactions will be able to do anything in the first second of the battle.

+0.01 seconds

This is where Con concedes that Monkey is "technically faster" but he goes on to claim that Kyo can sense Monkey's lightning fast leap (with human level samurai skills) accurately judge the precise point of his landing (despite the fact that the faster Monkey can easily twist his body to change his trajectory mid-flight) and get his sword out ready in time.

Just no. It is agreed Monkey is faster so he will be one step ahead of Kyo the whole time. He also doesn't need to get that close to Kyo to beat him down because his staff (which was previously used to measure the depth of the oceans) extends much further than a sword. Sword attacks have also always proved ineffective on Monkey, even the swords of Heaven's greatest generals.

Kyo will still be trying to judge the path of the leap when Monkey's staff caves his skull in.

+0.05 seconds

If Itachi can respond this fast he is clearly not street-level.
Ironman will be accelerating at super-sonic speeds, there is no way Itachi can lock eyes with him.

It's also very difficult to establish eye-contact (or know when you've got it) if someone's eyes are concealed in a helmet. Tony doesn't look out with his own eyes at all (same goes for Fett and Pred) they see a digital image that their suits 'eyes' project onto their retina.

Con also suggests that Itachi's mental attacks are strong enough to bypass Tony's Psi-shields. If this is true then they are on a level beyond all but the most powerful psychics in the Marvel universe and therefore definitely not street-level.

Ironman's Unibeam will be frying Itachi before he even thinks about looking up.

+0.3 seconds.

Check that time again. Less than a third of a second has passed and there is nothing to suggest that Captain Kefka's team can react in time to defend themselves from the ensuing onslaught. Kyo is dead, Itachi is either dead or disqualified and none of these remaining characters have super-fast reactions.

Kefka won't have time to cast his protection spell when that mine explodes underneath him and his limbs are ripped from his torso (I don't know why my opponent thinks explosions are silly). Now who's laughing.

Guts may have some serious armour but his head looks kind of exposed and when the cross-hairs on Slave 1's laser cannon target him, it's game over for berserk boy.

From the video, Anima looks like she can take quite a beating but even she can't withstand for ever and the sheer velocity and volume of the attacks will soon break down those 18,000 hit points.

+.7 seconds

Itachi is out of here and human level reactions will still not have kicked in yet (that's why Drac hasn't got going yet).

Again if Itachi can instantly steal and apply the powers of such a powerful foe when he is not even aware of Drac's location then he is absolutely beyond street-level and must be removed from Captain Kefka's team.

Anima will also not know where Drac is, is not fast enough to be doing anything at all just now and is too busy getting cut to ribbons by laser fire.

Dracula can not be killed by heart explosion only heart impalement, which is kind of tough when he's in his vapour form.

+1 seconds

The battle is over or just possibly, my guys are still finishing off Anima as she starts to think about responding. Depression is known to inhibit serotonin receptors which negatively affects information processing and reaction times [ http://www.sciencedirect.com... ] and if there's ever a textbook case of depression it's your girl right there.

Just for fun, I'll contemplate the possibility of a one-on-one between Guts and Pred but what Captain Kefka seems to forget is that Guts won't even be able to see Pred as he flies round at the speed of sound using a host of long range attacks. Guts will be a fat little fly in The Predator's web.

Captain Kefka's team has failed to pull anything spectacular out of the hat and are all wiped out, see my previous round for how my team carries on to make sure and then.... it's party time! Tony falls off the wagon and gets drunk, Drac bloats himself on samurai blood, Fett spins the tunes and Monkey and Pred go at it in a break-dancing/body-popping battle.

Over to my opponent.

Pro.
Kefka

Con

Gracias to Feverish, but I don't think this is quite over yet :D

1) Kefka
I made a mistake, I mentioned Ultima as the attack that has tracking orbs of energy. Ultima just blows the living crap out of everything.
Forsaken - Conjure a field of energy that tracks opponents, dropping magical orbs on them from above. In EX Mode, the orbs turn in the air to track opponents. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...
Still tracking....

2) Anima - I stand with my assumption that Pain would immediately destroy whomever it hits since they don't contain a "Immune to instant death" clause (Pro seems to enjoy using arguments that attack specific citing, such as Kyo's speed; I will take this approach now). Dracula's head, along with his heart, would explode. Therefore carrying out the act which can kill Dracula.

3) Kyo

Speed - Upon further research, and realizing how I forgot details of one of my favorite mangas, I have found out that Kyo actually moves or actually meets the speed of light. So yes, I concede I made a mistake earlier, mostly because of apathy, but I've fixed it.

http://forums.narutofan.com...

A small forum discussion of those who have translations of the manga. Research and challenge my contention if you will.
So speed of light 300,000 km/sec, how fast does this Rey de Monkey move?

Pro - "I have much faster characters (especially Monkey who can cover 54,000 km in one near instant leap." - Leap is how fast? You only mentioned distance. I think Monkey has found someone who's Reeboks are better tied.

My opponent mocks Kyo by saying, unlike Monkey's heavenly enemies, he only fights samurai? Obviously my opponent needs to read this manga further. Research the characters of Botemaru, Oda Nobunaga, and Kyoshiru Mibu...those are the types of people he fights. Plus, Kyo is the Crimson King. /motions for further research.

Oh and for fun check this description - * Mizuchi (みずち, 蛟): An attack that uses the air to cut an opponent to pieces; a sub attack of Seiryu.
Quote: The god murdering sword technique "Mizuchi". <-----------------------

Why can he not summon entities? As I argued before, taking the philosophy of a sword being an extension of one's body, a summon is the extension of one's conscious.

My analogy of awesomeness was indeed valid. Even though it was meant to be humorous, it makes sense. You have a slew of pretentiously intelligent characters with superior "technology", where do they beat the discipline over a lifetime by men who have fought god- like entities?

The dragon is, upon research, not a God, but a "Heavenly Dragon". So that may clear things up a bit.

Kyo is a freaking beast. End of story.

4) Itachi -

Suasanoo - Just exclude the part of the spell of the guardian if you must. It still creates a barrier capable of defending against lightning.

Why would any of these exclude him from street - level quality? Characters like Spider Man, who have senses far beyond human means, or Wolverine who has extreme regenerative powers, are considered street level.

I would start an argument against Monkey being too god- like, but that would be too time consuming, and much less fun.

Back to the battle.....

+0.01 secs

Let's clear this up a bit. Kyo can match light speed, and since Monkey is nowhere near this, I will assume Kyo makes him look like tortoise in terms of speed.

When Money leaps, Kyo will use the move, Mizuchi, that I have already cited above. Killing him. : The god murdering sword technique. I don't care if Buddha is the only one who has tricked him, Kyo just opened a can of whip cream, and Monkey only likes ramen.

+0.05 secs

Why? Spidey can react just as fast as this with his fun little mutant abilities.

It might be true that his "eyes" aren't directly exposed, but the only way Sharingan is avoided is if the eyes in the sockets in your head are either not there, or very turned around. Since his head is somewhat in the direction of my team, considering he's using his pretentious technology to track them, he will fall under Itachi's grasp.

+0.3 secs

Kyo is far from dead. Itachi isn't anywhere near disqualified.

I see no reason why Kefka can't react fast enough to cast the spell. Even if the bombs go off before he fully casts it, he still has time before the harmful effects reach him. The mines aren't directly underneath him, all Pro suggested was that million of these rats had explosives attached to them Ji-had style. I'm sure not every inch is covered, especially not the exact position of the clown of awesomeness.

Gut's armor- Head exposed? Hahha, I think not. http://img1.liveinternet.ru...

I don't think silly explosives can harm Anima. Just look at her, come on.

+ .7 seconds

My opponent keep drilling that Itachi is beyond street-level. I guess it's up to judges to determine this, but I don't think anything he possesses is beyond the parameters. Just because he isn't a plebeian doesn't mean because of bloodline and training he can't ascend normal human construct. Ironman takes elixirs to do this, what makes that any different?

I go back to my assumption that Pain will kill Dracula. It will disintegrate his head, even better than decapitation, and then plasmify his heart, 10 times better than impale. If you want I can argue that pain will create a meta- cognitive stake piercing the heart of the solemn, regretful old bat.

Guts will most certainly catch Predator while in his Berserk Armor. If Predator just flies around, and manages to avoid Guts, then Kyo will find him, and use Shin to instill Predator in a trance like state while he recollects about his abusive child-hood at the hands of Arnold Schwarzenegger, then kill him.

Fett is just left for the amusement of a clown, blood-thirsty samurai, emo Aeon, fate altering dude, and the most awesome Naruto character ever.
Debate Round No. 3
feverish

Pro

Hello again and thanks to Con for a phenomenal battle. Unfortunately the tournament organiser has decreed that this is to be the last round, my apologies to all for formatting the debate incorrectly.

In this round I won't present new strategies, arguments or evidence for my team, merely rebuttals and summaries, I request that my opponent does the same as I will be unable to respond to any fresh arguments.

1) Kefka

Still tracking...."

But not turning.

2) Anima

"Pain would immediately destroy whomever it hits since they don't contain a "Immune to instant death" clause."

Such a clause does not exist and does not make sense. As I explained in round 2, many kinds of attacks could be classified as "instant death moves" but are not. It is a meaningless term in this context.

3) Kyo

CON:"Upon further research, and realizing how I forgot details of one of my favorite mangas, I have found out that Kyo actually moves or actually meets the speed of light. So yes, I concede I made a mistake earlier, mostly because of apathy, but I've fixed it....Research and challenge my contention if you will."

If my opponent had chosen to research this tournament to the level of reading a few of the other debates, he would have seen that every debater provided sources to back up their character descriptions. Con provided no sources for his characters but gave a description of Kyo moving at above bullet speed (Which could be up to 1.5 kmps - http://hypertextbook.com...).

I offered the Wiki link which confirmed this speed description and CK accepted this. He conceded that Monkey was "technically faster" in the first sentence of his first battle action in round 2.

He now claims this is all in error because he's found another opinion on a discussion forum.

I think it is unacceptable to drastically alter the abilities of a character mid-debate, especially at this late stage and I request that CK's previous descriptions and concessions about this character should take precedence over this new and completely unsubstantiated information.

Looking at the forum discussion, there is much doubt expressed as to what the translation actually means and the consensus seems to favour the second translation which makes no mention of light speed. Even in the first translation it is only the sword itself which is described as moving at "light-speed", whereas Con is suggesting it applies to Kyo's foot speed.

http://forums.narutofan.com... :"It's pretty poetic so there are different interpretations. "kousokutou"--literally "speed of light sword".

While I am no Japanese expert this page of Japanese/English translations, http://www.eudict.com... shows that while kousoku does mean "speed of light", this could well be a poetic and descriptive term (as one might describe a bullet moving in a flash of light) because the more scientific term "THE speed of light" which we are actually discussing in this debate is correctly defined as "hikarinohiyasa" which the manga does not mention.

Kyo's sword can move faster than the eye can see but not at lightspeed, I will graciously allow him a foot speed of up to 2kmps, fast enough to easily dodge bullets.

The longest of Monkey's leaps could possibly take him up to a second, so 54000 kmps. Sun Wu Kong just got his Reebok sponsorship deal back.

"My opponent mocks Kyo by saying, unlike Monkey's heavenly enemies, he only fights samurai?."

No, I wasn't talking about individual fights but about when they fight entire armies.

"Why can he not summon entities? As I argued before, taking the philosophy of a sword being an extension of one's body, a summon is the extension of one's conscious."

No, a sword is equipment, another entity that is an extension of one character makes them a collective which is disallowed.

"You have a slew of pretentiously intelligent characters with superior "technology", where do they beat the discipline over a lifetime by men who have fought god- like entities?"

The short answer is that even if they didn't, Monkey does. CK's technophobia in this debate is quite intriguing, it is of course in terms of fire-power rather than discipline that several of my characters excel. For an obvious (if somewhat tasteless and horrific) example of technological weaponry pwning Japanese tradition and training see Hiroshima, Nagasaki etc.

4) Itachi

"Why would any of these exclude him from street - level quality? Characters like Spider Man, who have senses far beyond human means, or Wolverine who has extreme regenerative powers, are considered street level."

These characters qualify because their powers are limited and because they generally deal with local villains on a city-wide basis.

CK is claiming that Itachi not only has reactions faster than Spider Man but also suggesting that his mental powers are as strong as people like Professor X (who is clearly not street-level) or Dr. Strange (who is banned outright for being too powerful) and forcefields stronger than lightning. This combination and extent of powers makes him well beyond street-level.

BATTLE

+0.01 secs

CK has attempted to shift the goal posts but his previous concession and the unreliability of his late source undermine his new assertions (see above).
Monkey is faster.

CK has also ignored my argument about the extendable length of Monkey's staff meaning he won't have to land that near to Kyo so I assume this is conceded also.

Kyo = eliminated. No whipped cream for you.

+0.05 secs

"Spidey can react just as fast as this"

I'm not convinced that Spidey can and in any case, Itachi is not Spider Man and I have seen no evidence of his reflexes being anywhere near this level. Con seems to think he can claim the abilities of all other street-level characters for Itachi. Can Itachi also regenerate and shoot webs?

"It might be true that his "eyes" aren't directly exposed, but the only way Sharingan is avoided is if the eyes in the sockets in your head are either not there, or very turned around."

Why? I would have assumed that having one's eyes covered would be a similar effect to having them turned away. Tony isn't looking through a visor he's seeing a digital display.

+0.3 secs

"I see no reason why Kefka can't react fast enough to cast the spell."

Kefka has not been specified as having superfast reflexes and he will have no reason to expect this attack. Perceiving the danger, deciding on a course of action and casting the spell (most spells require some kind of incantation or at least gesture) would all add up to much longer than 0.3 seconds.

"all Pro suggested was that million of these rats had explosives attached to them Ji-had style."

No, I said: "the millions of rats begin transporting and concealing a number of Predator explosives and booby traps at strategic points around the city."

There is every chance that there could be a mine right under Kefka, this was just one example of how Kefka could die, he could just as easily be targeted by laser cannon.

"Gut's armor- Head exposed? Hahha, I think not."

Again, this is what you get for not providing your own sources. The link I provided that was accepted clearly shows Guts with no helmet.

"I don't think silly explosives can harm Anima. Just look at her, come on."

"Look at her" is not an argument. She's big and mean so what? Explosives aren't silly. http://en.wikivisual.com...

"Ironman takes elixirs to do this, what makes that any different?"

Ironman is not street-level, that's the difference.

"Guts will most certainly catch Predator while in his Berserk Armor."

How? He can't see where he is and he is moving too fast.

----

I think my team has comfortably won the battle but the judges must of course decide this for themselves.

Thanks.
Kefka

Con

Gracias senor Feverish for a very fun, albeit interesting and frustrating debate.

I understand that new strategies may be a bit abrupt, but I see no reason why they have no validity. Arguments evolve, grounds, claims, warrants change, etc. If it's unacceptable to change argumentative approach about a purely hypothetical battle, then something is wrong.

1) Kefka

Still tracking...."

"But not turning." - Feverish

CK- Really?

2) Anima

----------------

"Pain would immediately destroy whomever it hits since they don't contain a "Immune to instant death" clause."

Such a clause does not exist and does not make sense. As I explained in round 2, many kinds of attacks could be classified as "instant death moves" but are not. It is a meaningless term in this context.
-------------------
- Eh, I say it's a legitimate claim. My opponent has criticized "just because" statements of mine, but please avoid caiming tu quoque when I say he makes a hypocritical claim to defend my assertion.

3) Kyo

Alright, I made a mistake, woops. And yes, this is just a forum discussion, but if anyone takes the time to just watch the purdy pictures of Senor Crimson King killin' people, they shall understand his ability to walk next to billions of particles/waves of luminosity.

The forum discussion may contend that it's purely poetic, and this may be true, but I still hold strongly he can out potato sack race Monkey any day.

The only argument that can go against "No, a sword is equipment, another entity that is an extension of one character makes them a collective which is disallowed." now, is the awesomeness of "Nuh uh".

"The short answer is that even if they didn't, Monkey does. CK's technophobia in this debate is quite intriguing, it is of course in terms of fire-power rather than discipline that several of my characters excel. For an obvious (if somewhat tasteless and horrific) example of technological weaponry pwning Japanese tradition and training see Hiroshima, Nagasaki etc."

- Ouch, that was cold. I would argue against this, but I want to avoid upsetting people (Something quite rare for me, when dealing with history). "GO AMERIKUH" people may now breathe.

4) Itachi

It's not like I'm saying he can leap 50,000 km in one leap or something, all I'm saying is he's very strong at Genjutsu, illusion techniques, because that's kind of his strong point, considering his heritage. What you may see as fast reactions, may just be a clever trick by Itachi to make you think that you never looked into his eyes, so that you may begin to assume that he will soon be dead, while really you're about to suffer a three day mental F***.

I wouldn't even classify Genjutsu with Professor X esque powers, simply because 1. It's japanese dude... -_-
2. Telepathy is the ability to "push" thoughts, feelings, etc into another person's mind, though Genjutsu would be more along the lines of disrupting your current perception, so not so much "Think this", but "You're trippin dude" powers.

BATTLE:

+0.01 secs

Yes, I've changed my argument.

About the extending ocean pool cleaner reaching far beyond a sword, please read Mizuchi again. An air (God slaying) attack, hence already heading towards Monkey when he's erecting his pole. I will argue his sway over the element of air is far less that of the Crimson King; judges make your own discerning.

+0.05 secs

http://naruto.wikia.com... Please read the "Jutsu Master" and "Mangekyo Sharingan" section. What keeps him in the street level area, is the fact that the side effects of him being as powerful as he is, significantly hinder his true ability, and he does deal with local "baddies", but on a more conspiracy, black ops level.

If you want he can just burn you to crisp with his Amaterasu, but that wouldn't be a very fun argument.

I have a statement. Mr. Pred "flies round at the speed of sound using a host of long range attacks. Guts will be a fat little fly in The Predator's web.". Exactly how does this not exclude him from street level regulations? Just because it's technology? How is it that Itachi can't react with sound-speed approaching senses? I smell hypocrisy among the technologically drunk.

+0.3 secs

Kefka, not fast? How do you beat Ifrit and Shiva like little dolls, and not have extremely potent casting ability, in regards to power and speed?

--------

"all Pro suggested was that million of these rats had explosives attached to them Ji-had style."

No, I said: "the millions of rats begin transporting and concealing a number of Predator explosives and booby traps at strategic points around the city."

There is every chance that there could be a mine right under Kefka, this was just one example of how Kefka could die, he could just as easily be targeted by laser cannon.
----------

I think this "prep time" has been misused, but I accepted it, decided not to take advantage of it, and also didn't refute it, so I can't really say anything except that I doubt it's right under the killer clown.

------
"Gut's armor- Head exposed? Hahha, I think not."

"Again, this is what you get for not providing your own sources. The link I provided that was accepted clearly shows Guts with no helmet."
---------
http://img1.liveinternet.ru...

Helmet. What possible logical explanation can you give that he wouldn't have his helmet on? Because you posted a source with it off? I are confused. I thought this was about theory and reasoning, not "Line 423 word 23 doesn't use the correct verb, hence your assertion of ability is un-sourced". (I may be coming off callous, but sincerely I'm not, it's just my way of challenging ideas).
-------
I don't think my team has really lost, especially because of lack of EXACT sourcing, but it's up to the judges.

Ending note: I could have done much more with this, and made the argument better constructed with greater detail and theory; so I apologize for not stepping up to the plate. Feverish, very good job, despite my discrepancies with your style.
Debate Round No. 4
feverish

Pro

This is not part of the official debate as per the tournament master's instructions and judges should disregard it entirely.

Thanks again for the debate Kefka, sorry if you thought I was unreasonable in any way. I wish I could respond to your points in the last round, especially your new ones but the debate is over. I will just point out that my two street-level characters were significantly upgraded in prep time but resist the overwhelming temptation to say more.

Thanks to all UTW fans, hope to see you again soon. *crosses fingers.
Kefka

Con

Kefka forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
35 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
RFD

1 Pro: Tony Stark is a fun guy. Your advanced armor is pretty cool. I do wonder though, where would you get the necessary supplies? That seems like a bit of a dilemma. Why do you consider something and then decide against it? How is that relevant?

1 Con: I like your explanation of Kefka (although I suppose it is to be expected that you would have some good details on him). I don't know if you can "ignore[] defense" in real life though. Your pain move for Anima is not really fair, and you try to support it with semantics. I suppose you don't want to prepare at all, since you have only given character descriptions. They were very good, but didn't leave much room for anything else.

2 Pro: I appreciate your responses to Con's character descriptions, pointing out many of the holes that need to be filled. It makes me like your position more. But come on. Boba Fett is really not that cool. You shift the burden of proof onto Con; this shifting may be overstated, but for the most part it seems justified. If Con's guys can kill you instantly, he should say why. Your strategies are good and I like the time count. The nose-picking line is both intimidating and amusing.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
2 Con: I would have liked some clarification as to exactly how much Kefka's powers are reduced by. Instant death is not very well defined. As Pro pointed out, many things could be instant death: getting shot in the head, hit by a bomb, etc. So what exactly does this instant death move do? I do like how Monkey runs into Kyo's sword. Even if Monkey is faster, moving a sword is far easier than running across the city, so Pro should have to prove that Monkey can really move that fast. Until then, well done. "Explosions are a joke"? Impressive. The main problem I see is that Monkey might move out of the way when he sees Kyo's sword. It still delays Monkey though, possibly giving Team Con the necessary edge.

3 Pro: I loooove your opening line. The banter in this debate is just delightful. But you have immortal characters? Remember rule 2! That Monkey fights gods and demons is intriguing, but Monkey still has to move a lot farther than Kyo. You support that point effectively, though, by explaining that Kyo's sensing abilities are only on the human level. Now who's laughing" indeed.

3 Con: Kyo can move at the speed of light? Wow. Impressive. This battle just turned on its head. Your assertions that Kyo is far faster are unwarranted, though -- a "near instant" sounds to me like around a sixth of a second, which means that Monkey can match or even exceed Kyo's speed. Hey, Superman can do it without laws of physics issues, why can't Monkey? Regarding whether Itachi is street level, it seems to me that he is really much stronger than such characters as Spider-Man and Wolverine and should not be considered street level.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
4 Pro: "Instant death" is indeed meaningless. Your rebuttal of Con's attempt at new evidence is effective, and the battle has once again turned. I don't know why you are talking about Reeboks, though. =) I like the comparison between Itachi and the banned Dr. Strange. A respectable closing round.

4 Con: New strategies are unacceptable because they do not give your opponent a chance to respond. You then get some arguments which are guaranteed not to be refuted. It is unfair to Pro. All new arguments will be ignored. Your method of quoting is awkward, making it hard to read. There were a few quotes which I thought were yours, but were actually things that Pro said. If you hold strongly that Kyo can beat Monkey in a sack race, you have to prove it for me to accept it.

Conclusion: Both sides were very witty, which made the debate much easier to read. Unfortunately, points are not given based on wittiness. Feverish's arguments were much better supported, and he effectively proved that his team would win, especially with Monkey. Sources also goes to Feverish, since his case was far better supported by his sources.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
No worries guys, take your time. I would much rather have a thorough RFD than a rushed decision.
Posted by burningpuppies101 7 years ago
burningpuppies101
ATTN PARTICIPANTS OF THE DEBATE: I'm currently swamped with schoolwork, but I'll try to get your RFD up by the end of the week. I've got 2 debates to judge and school to juggle, so please forgive me if it takes a while for me to get an RFD out. I want to be able to send out both RFDs at the same time, so it's fair for everyone.
Posted by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
It's all good Feverish, even if you could vote, I would even, if i were you, allocate many points to myself. I've read this a few times, and I could have done MUCH more; starting with the removal of Anima. I didn't use her nearly as much as I could, and I should have probably made Itachi a non Sreet Level, which limited what I could do with him; as he was scarily close to the barrier between SL and Beast Status.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
I've been pretty busy recently. I'll have my RFD up within a few days.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
Hi Kefka, it's quite possibly of no concern to you but I just thought I'd let you know that I can't vote on the site so the six point vote for me is from someone else.

Thanks again for the debate.
Peace.
Posted by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
I posted a nice thank you for the last round. Didn't go through for some reason?
Posted by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
I hope there aren't too many mistakes, didn't have much time on my hands :D
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by burningpuppies101 7 years ago
burningpuppies101
feverishKefkaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Vote Placed by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
feverishKefkaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Vote Placed by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
feverishKefkaTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Vote Placed by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
feverishKefkaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60