The Instigator
Sakushi
Con (against)
The Contender
kazoodles
Pro (for)

Law Vs Chaos in the context of SMT 4's Apocalyptic Tokyo (Pro is law Con is Chaos)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/25/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 294 times Debate No: 96385
Debate Rounds (3)
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Sakushi

Con

Context :

Essentially the world was thrown into a state of fear by 'demons' appearing in the cities. Countries lost control, leaders went mad and the world was ultimately very afraid. For this reason, bombs were launched off and many countries tried to throw blame all around. Tokyo realized this would soon mean the end of the world, and managed to create a dome that surrounded the entirety of Tokyo, and would then protect the inhabitants from the external threats. However, this did not protect them from the demonic uprising. The demons were very prevalent and made many changes to the culture/workings of tokyo. This lasted for 20 years.

People were dying, and had to form underground bases. They had to hide, and fight just to survive. They lost most of their large scale technology, and lost any proper form of government or organization. For this reason, people elected to escape and see how the outside world was. The only weakness in the dome was at the top, through a long tower. They climbed and eventually dug, and managed to make their way to the land above. But what they found was that other humans had already done this, and there was a land known as Mikado.

In Mikado people had found the love of god, and lived for the most part peacefully. There was some corruption, with a lower and higher class system that segregated the land. But they were ultimately safe from the demons, and protected by the angels.

But they did not condone those who had been 'tainted' by Tokyo to live in mikado, it was essentially a safe haven for only a select few, rather than for humanity itself.

So the main character Flynn, was given a few choices of how to proceed. He was born in Mikado, but he went down to Tokyo. Being a messiah of sorts, sent to tokyo with intention, he would be allowed to return and be treated as a citizen of Mikado rather than an 'unclean one' of Tokyo.

Merkabah, the angel proposes the way of Law, to ultimately make the ways of mikado the ways of the world. They would eliminate those in Tokyo, expand gods control and create a safe world where people had to follow strict codes resulting in a loss of freedom and in most cases pleasure. However, they would be safe. They would be protected. They would know love and comfort.

Lucifer however, did not feel this was just. It was not in favor of humanity, rather a select few. But there many ruling factions in tokyo, and the land was going to hell. People were afraid. People were controlling. What the people needed was a new leader, but in the current situation too many people had bonded together and attempted to control tokyo for their own selfish purposes. So lucifer instead proposed to increase the amount of demons exponentially, forcing humanity to evolve and ultimately find a new king through the chaos, Flynn.

Flynn must either side with Merkabah, forsaking the people of tokyo and bringing peace through Mikado, or create a temporary chaos, inciting war and death, but ultimately leading towards him being the new King. As king, he would be just, and un-corrupt, however many people may suffer and die before then.

My argument is simple.

Merkabah's route would desolate the entirety of Tokyo, while Lucifers only causes major damages and suffering to tokyo. But both routes ultimately lead to a world controlled by a new king. Merkabahs rule however has already shown faults, while Flynn can learn from these and aim to create a far superior world.

The only major downsides would be the pain/emotional suffering , as Merkabah would finish his opponents off instantly, rather than making them suffer like the demons would. But I feel that the sacrifices of these few grant the survivors enough positive changes that their deaths are not in vain.

Ultimately, Flynn must Either Kill Merkabah and follow lucifer, or Kill Lucifer and follow Merkabah.

I argue that he should follow Lucifer.
kazoodles

Pro

>Merkabah, the angel proposes the way of Law, to ultimately make the ways of mikado the ways of the world. They would eliminate those in Tokyo, expand gods control and create a safe world where people had to follow strict codes resulting in a loss of freedom and in most cases pleasure. However, they would be safe. They would be protected. They would know love and comfort.

What strict code would they have to follow? In the law ending Merkabah and the angels destroy the social caste and intended to salvage whatever technology they could from Tokyo before they destroyed it. Most of what people would identify as Mikado before the law ending wasn't apart of the angels' plan. The game recognizes the fact that it will take time for Mikado to revert back to the way the angels' intended Mikado to be, but it makes it clear that Mikado will not be under the same way of living as the old Mikado.

>So lucifer instead proposed to increase the amount of demons exponentially, forcing humanity to evolve and ultimately find a new king through the chaos, Flynn.

What do demons have to do with evolution? Putting pressure on humanity through violence and suffering doesn't inspire change in the long-term. As shown by the alternate chaotic Tokyo, kings can be overthrown and their policies undermined regardless of whether that would be for the benefit of the land they rule over or not. Even if Flynn were to become a well-intentioned king he is still limited by the fact that he is a human with a short life span. Whatever change he brings about either has the possibility of being reverted or wouldn't be ingrained enough in their culture to last longer than his own lifespan.

The law ending offers a long-term solution to the demon problem and social degeneracy at the cost of thousands of lives. Approaching this situation with a utilitarian mindset, a kingdom that would likely remain peaceful for many thousands of years after the death of Tokyo, the lives of the already tortured and battered Tokyo people is worth less. The only reason that the angels' plan never came into fruition and the problem of Mikado's caste system never solved is because of Mastema and the protagonist's influence.

It is also implied that the souls of Tokyo could be reincarnated in Mikado if God willed it. Which he likely would, in the same fashion that the Goddess of Tokyo revives people.
Debate Round No. 1
Sakushi

Con

>What strict code would they have to follow? In the law ending Merkabah and the angels destroy the social caste and intended to salvage whatever technology they could from Tokyo before they destroyed it.

While they did not specifically state the code or laws that would apply, it seems fairly certain that in a universe ruled by YHWH and dictated by Merkabah, it would end up as a Theocracy. History shows that a country ruled by the church generally stops being as 'free' and rather makes the same laws apply to the country and the church. It would make things easier for them to have one set of rules.

Even if we can't make assumptions about what YHWH and Merkabah would do, we can consider the actions that have been made. Why would they need to destroy Tokyo? If Flynn was on their side and Lucifer defeated, they could slowly take out the demons while letting the humans live in Mikado. The reason? They're unclean. Samurai have seem demons. Samurai have even turned into demons. So that's not why they're unclean. It's because they like things like Manga, Sex, Alcohol, Drugs, ect. And these people were killed for that. Naturally, these things are not going to be allowed in a world ruled by Merkabah. If he'll kill over it, he'll definitely make a law over it. In Apocalypse we even have a drunk saying not to tell the angels he was drinking, and that he knew he'd be punished for it. Already showing the direction merkabah has taken mikado.

>What do demons have to do with evolution? Putting pressure on humanity through violence and suffering doesn't inspire change in the long-term.

Simple. Just think of what Evolution actually is. Not as a fun concept, but in science. It comes from animals passing on traits to their children, but the key factor relies on the 'random' changes that can occur from parents to children. The only way any actual change happens to the species as a whole however, is when these 'random' changes increase the chances of survival. So that the ones with 'surviving' traits, will survive more. While ones with 'useless' traits will perish.

Humans have reached a point where they are the dominant species. They do not need to 'Evolve' anymore, to survive. Were now working on 'thriving'. However, if we were to Evolve and Thrive, we could grow not only smarter and more technically inclined, but also improve our physical body, and presumably our brain as well. So demons being thrown into the equation help us improve in this regard. With humans dying and having more threats, the clever and strong humans will survive, and the weak will perish. Humans will evolve through natural selection.

>s shown by the alternate chaotic Tokyo, kings can be overthrown and their policies undermined regardless of whether that would be for the benefit of the land they rule over or not. Even if Flynn were to become a well-intentioned king he is still limited by the fact that he is a human with a short life span.

While it is true that kings can be overthrown, in this context Flynn is much more capable and strong than any other human. He should have no troubles emerging as king, and maintaining it during his own life span.

Now, the second point of his life span being so short, is true. But if you recall, mikado was only crafted by those from tokyo (Akira), and it lasted for thousands of years. But it's still mostly the same. This is because at the start of a new beginning things set a new direction and often don't change for a long time. In our modern world, there are many countries, many rulers, and many parts. This is why we cannot stay the same. But an isolated country ruled by one leader can set a direction that last generations. Under the Dome they would be completely isolated, and Flynn would remain unchallenged during his life time. He would be able to set the direction for humanities future, and make incredible changes. He is not like most kings, and this is not like most countries.

>Approaching this situation with a utilitarian mindset, a kingdom that would likely remain peaceful for many thousands of years after the death of Tokyo, the lives of the already tortured and battered Tokyo people is worth less.

Starting with the utilitarian aspect, the actual death counts are simple in Chaos's favor. This is probably obvious to you, due to your next point, so i'll refrain from restating the obvious. Next you proclaim the lives of the people in tokyo are worth less, simply because the changes from the angels would last longer. However, this world has already shown that people like Flynn are capable of emerging. Demons will also be reborn in general, and Lucifer would eventually return. While the angels kingdom would certainly last a long time, it would not be endless, and it would not be perfect. It may last a thousand years, but people will still die from countless other things and will have their freedoms limited based on the church. Flynn will be able to set the direction and push humanity to evolve, and his changes will last forever through 'direction'. The Angel route makes hard changes, but makes people resent it. Once it's taken over, people will attempt to shift it the furthest from the angels way as possible, and in the long-long term may even make things far less peaceful. Flynns actions won't have a breaking point, rather just setting the pace for the future, and will likely continue to improve (following his direction), and evolve (through hardship and leadership).

Ultimately..

Angels:

Downsides: People in Tokyo Die. People must follow the will of god, even when it's illogical. Will end eventually, and may even push people in the opposite direction (similar to a school kid hating learning instead of embracing it due to a forceful school experience).

Upsides: There will probably be less fighting.

Demons:

Downsides: People will die right now, but not as much as the angel way.

Upsides: Humanity will evolve. Humanity will push in a better direction. There will be a for sure good king for the next 40-80 years.
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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