The Instigator
britkit_francis
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points
The Contender
Rami
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Law banning the second employee from the train engine.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
britkit_francis
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/15/2015 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 433 times Debate No: 75352
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (1)

 

britkit_francis

Con

On Thursday, Amtrak commuter 188 on the Philadelphia Northeast corridor derailed due to speeding to fast on a 50 mph curve. They (the train) was going about 106 mph. It is not known at the time of this publication but it is possible that the train derailment happened because of the engineer fell asleep during this operation. Not only that, there is only to be only one trainman to be in the locomotive. Federal law permits only one trainman in the locomotive so if he has a heart attack or falls asleep because of Amtrak crew base calling them early or so, there would be nobody to help him or wake up. The reason that Amtrak got rid of the second locomotive trainmen was so that they didn't have to pay as much money on both of them. I state that that law should be banned due to safety reasons.
Rami

Pro

It will be difficult for me to debate this for two reasons. One, I think regardless of anything I might say, there still should be a second, and two, I don't know any sources I could cite. I will accept this challenge to make sure there are no points that are overlooked.

To start, perhaps other changes could be made that are more efficient. Is it possible to have automatic systems that slow the train down for a turn if it's going too fast? Then you don't have to hire an employee, and guaranteed, there won't be another train derailing if everything works fine. Again, I don't know then first thing about trains, but please consider it.
Debate Round No. 1
britkit_francis

Con

There are some automated devises called Positive Train Control that prevent a train from train-to-train collisions, overspeed derailments, incursions into established work zone limits, and the movement of a train through a main line switch in the improper position. The only problem is that they don't always work. Most of them depend on microwaves to transmit the codes to stop the train from disaster. If you are in a desolate area or something is jamming the frequency, the code isn't always delivered. Most of the time it is up to the engineer to decide what to do. Another reason that it is up to the engineer is that, what if the train is in a canyon and he has a heart attack or falls asleep (because of the railroad calling him to duty early, It has happened). Since the engine is locked to the passengers, the other crew members can't get to him in time and then, boom, there dead due to the train stopped in front of them. I say that technology can't always help and it always realise on the trainmen to operate saftley.

Positive Train Control: https://www.fra.dot.gov...

(You could argue about how we don't need another trainman in the engine.)
Rami

Pro

To start, I want to thank you for giving me more of a background to go on for this debate.

If we were to get rid of this law, and if another derailment happens, it may be found that it happened because one employee was in the bathroom, and the other fell asleep, putting pressure to hire another employee to make sure there is always two employees in the control station (or whatever it's called). That means three employees would hired, which triples the regular cost for a trainmen. I am basing this off how the U.S. pilot system works.

Also, you mentioned that the PCT doesn't work well in desolate areas. Philadelphia doesn't not exactly remind me of a desolate area. Plus, how many accidents have happened that are caused by the failure of PCT in a desolate area! I haven't heard of many. Still, I acknowledge that I am ignorant of this subject
Debate Round No. 2
britkit_francis

Con

Believe it or not, there is a rule ( I think rule 1.11.6 of the BNSF rule book) about if one of the trainmen in the engine must go to the restroom, it is ordered to find a siding (like turnout), stop, and use the restroom as quickly as possible.

As stated before, Positive Train Control does not always help. I older train engines, such as the Elecro-Motive Division GP-30 (which were built around the 1960s and '70s) are obviously not fitted up with PTC than an EMD SD-70ace-p4 that was built this year. A lot of class 2 and class 3 railroads use older models ,such as the GP-30, because that is all they can afford to own. Sometimes these lower class railways have a pact signed with class one railways to use their tracks to commute to distant facilities that they don't have tracks to. During that long travel, they may encounter other trains heading towards them. With out the PTC system, they will not know that the other train is heading towards them until it is too late. On August 26, 2000, a Dakota, Minnesota, and Eastern train bound for Central South Dakota was derailed in Brookings, South Dakota, killing the conductor and severely injuring the engineer. The accident was caused intentionally. The suspect called it a 'prank.' PTC doesn't and cannot prevent this type of wreck. PTC has a homing device, like radar, that sends up an alert message saying that a train is to close. It cannot tell if a switch is lined against them until they wreck. (When a switch is lined against them, it means that the switch is set up for a train to cross over to the other track on the other side. It is set up as a one way deal.)

Chatsworth is just North of Los Angeles; definitely not a desolate area. This happened when A Metrolink commuter passed a red signal and collided with a Union Pacific freight train. That line is one of the routes that sees more trains a day than, lets say, Detroit and the Great Lake areas. Since it is that place sees more travel, it would be key to protect that route from wrecks. The only way to protect it is with Positive Train Control (PTC). Still, even with PTC, Metrolink plows right into the Union Pacific train.

Chatsworth Derailment: http://en.wikipedia.org...
DM&E derailment: http://en.wikipedia.org...
Rami

Pro

Rami forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
britkit_francis

Con

Since the Pro , Rami, forfeited the round, I have nothing to counter.
Rami

Pro

I believe we have covered all the areas in this subject, and I do not know how to bring up a winning argument. @Brit_Frans wins this debate.
Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by britkit_francis 2 years ago
britkit_francis
Just post something like' "I'm sorry but I am stuck here and cannot go on." I will waste less time.
Posted by Rami 2 years ago
Rami
Well I am stuck. Should I waste this last round and let this go into voting period?
Posted by britkit_francis 2 years ago
britkit_francis
Sorry, I didn't realize. You still have one more round.
Posted by britkit_francis 2 years ago
britkit_francis
It's okay man. If you want to you can actually type up your debate here and I will try to make people count it in when they vote.
Posted by Rami 2 years ago
Rami
I'm sorry I wasn't able to vote; I was out for three days. Still, I think you have rightfully debated me and I don't have anything I could go on.
Posted by britkit_francis 2 years ago
britkit_francis
Trainman (men): General railroad people.
Engineer: Operator of the train engine.
Employee: Same as trainman, general person working in the railroad.
For now, yes they are to be referred as the same person.
Posted by Rami 2 years ago
Rami
Please clarify: the trainmen, the engineer, and employee all refer to the same job position in this debate, right?
Posted by britkit_francis 2 years ago
britkit_francis
What I mean by that is, if the comupter controls go out or something of the matter, it is up to the engineer to decide something like "Do I stop the train? Do I call other trains for help?"
Posted by Rami 2 years ago
Rami
What do you mean when you wrote "Most of the time it is up to the engineer to decide what to do." Is this part of you argument refuting the PTC (Positive Train Control)?
Posted by britkit_francis 2 years ago
britkit_francis
I hope that this law will be reconsidered and that the the second trainman would be put back in. These was passed rather recently. Around 2005 to be exact.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by daem0n 2 years ago
daem0n
britkit_francisRamiTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeits and concedes.