The Instigator
Capitalistslave
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
CosmoJarvis
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Leftists who shop at traditional/capitalist businesses instead of cooperatives are hypocrites.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/8/2016 Category: Economics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 470 times Debate No: 97828
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

Capitalistslave

Pro

Definitions:
Leftist: For this debate, leftist is anyone who is at least as left-wing as a social democrat, and as far left as a communist. Liberals, neo-liberals, etc are excluded since they support a capitalist system traditionally.

Traditional/capitalist business: Any business which is owned by an individual or a few individuals at the top of a hierarchical chain of command for the business; they also make the decisions for the business.

Cooperative: Business which lacks a hierarchy, and has the workers directly own the business, control the business, and vote on business decisions

Structure of debate:
Round 1: acceptance, definition of terms, rules for debate
Round 2: Main argument
Round 3: Rebuttals/conclusion.

Note: I'll allow con to start their main arguments in round 1 if they choose, if they agree to waiving round 3 to keep the number of arguments even between us. If they do this, they must say in round 3 "I am waiving this round as instructed" Or something similar. Otherwise, you can follow the above structure

In addition, I couldn't put everything in the title of this debate that I wanted. I am putting exceptions for cases where there is no other case but to shop at a capitalist company for the product you need/want. So, if con points out that it's not always possible for them to shop at cooperatives, I would agree with this and is not what I'm arguing against. Rather, I'm arguing that "When possible, leftists should shop at cooperatives and not traditional/capitalist businesses in order to not be considered hypocrites". That entire sentence would not fit in the title. This also has the exception of where the leftist doesn't know about cooperatives. It is true that majority of people don't even know what a cooperative is, so we can't blame someone who doesn't know about them for not shopping at them.
CosmoJarvis

Con

I have a large feeling that I will fail terribly in this argument, and that you probably have this huge argument already prepared for me, but I'll still try.

Well, good luck, and regardless of who wins, I hope that we can both enjoy this opportunity.
Debate Round No. 1
Capitalistslave

Pro

Well, it should be pretty self-evident why a leftist who shops at capitalist stores when they don't need to are hypocrites, but maybe it is not to some.

First, I realized I didn't define hypocrisy, which I shall do here:
"the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense." [1]
Someone who claims to be a leftist would have the belief that capitalism is wrong, and that either it needs to be heavily regulated, or completely replaced with an alternative economic system.

The fact that some of these leftists shop at capitalist stores just because it might be more convenient or easier, shows that they are not truly dedicated to the cause of leftism, and shows that their behavior doesn't conform to their beliefs and are thus hypocrites. Cooperatives already have a hard time competing with traditional businesses(as their goal isn't to compete) so how can we expect to go to socialism when people don't support the socialist-like businesses?

I do agree, as stated before, that a leftist is not a hypocrite if they don't know about cooperatives, which is the case for majority of Americans[2] Just for fun, did you(con) know about cooperatives before this debate?

I don't feel like there is anything else I can argue for, so I turn this over to con.

Sources:
[1] https://www.google.com...
[2] http://www.geo.coop...
CosmoJarvis

Con

I apologize but I forgot to post my definitions for key terms in my argument.

Leftist: a political ideology that supports social equality and egalitarianism and socialism, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality

Socialism: a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole

Capitalism: an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

I personally believe that a person can at least have a firm belief in something, but fail to carry out that belief throughout their lifestyle due to reasonable circumstances. You argue that, because leftists may purchase products from capitalist stores as opposed to cooperative stores, they are automatically hypocrites. Though I understand your view, I respectfully disagree with your reasoning.

Capitalism, as I defined above, is an economic system controlled primarily by private individuals and corporations. Capitalism dominates America. Small and local businesses, and cooperatives, have a hard time of being able to sell their products in a society where wealthy and large private business dominate the playing field. Because many small businesses and cooperatives lack the resources to mass produce their products, they're more likely to sell their goods at a higher price than bigger businesses, who are equipped with the means to mass produce their products. This will likely cause the smaller business to initially fail and run out of business.

Because bigger businesses are able to provide similar services to those of cooperatives at a lower price, leftists may have to make the choice to buy from them.
Debate Round No. 2
Capitalistslave

Pro

Well, as I stated before, I mentioned there are some cases where I don't consider them to be hypocrites, such as if they can't get a product at a cooperative and have to get it at a traditional business, or have no other choice.

They're hypocrites when they have the option to go to a cooperative, but choose not to anyways.

If you have the opportunity to do something in line with your beliefs, but then choose not to do it and do something against your beliefs, then you're a hypocrite.
CosmoJarvis

Con

Saying that "Leftists can be hypocrites" is like saying anyone can be a hypocrite. Of course, anyone can be a hypocrite. Donald Trump's a hypocrite. at times, you or I might be hypocrites.

But I believe that the purpose of this argument, to debate whether Leftists who shop at traditional/capitalist businesses instead of cooperatives are or aren't hypocrites., is to state whether all or none of the leftists that shop at capitalist buinesses are hypocrites.
Changing the argument from all Leftists who shop at capitalist businesses to Leftists can be hypocrites if they shop at capitalist businesses changes the debate greatly.

I still am firm on my belief that not all those who shop at capitalist businesses are hypocrites.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
Okay, that makes more sense. Normally when someone says social democrat they mean socially progressive.
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
I consider liberalism to be a center-right ideology, and neo-liberalism to be a little more to the right of that.
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
Social democrats generally want a very regulated capitalist society, with several things offered by the government, such as universal healthcare, a welfare system, etc.
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
Jonbonbon: Are using social democrat in the same way? By democrat, I don't mean a member of the Democratic party. By social democrat, I mean someone in favor of social democracy( https://en.wikipedia.org... ), which is a slightly left-wing ideology. I don't consider liberal or neoliberal to be left-wing ideology. Most democrats(as in members of the American Democratic party) are liberals, not social democrats.
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
A social democrat isn't necessarily a fiscal democrat :P most democrats I know have no problem with capitalism. They mainly just have a problem with the actual people at the top.
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