The Instigator
InVinoVeritas
Pro (for)
Winning
9 Points
The Contender
coldmuse
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points

Legalization of polygamy

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
InVinoVeritas
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/8/2011 Category: Politics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 6,668 times Debate No: 19759
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (3)

 

InVinoVeritas

Pro

No slandering. All assumed standard rules of formal debate apply.

"Legalization": removing a legal prohibition on something currently illegal
"Polygamy": a marriage which involves >2 partners

I will argue for legalization of polygamy, and opposition will argue against legalization of polygamy.

First arguments of both sides are strictly allotted for acceptance statement, setting terms of debate, and establishing definitions.
coldmuse

Con

First of all let me define polygamy in today's world " polygamy exclusively form of a 'polygyny' , one man too many wives
(The Problem of Polygamy by Thom Brooks)

POLYAMORY is the practice, desire, or acceptance of having more than one intimate relationship at a time with the knowledge and consent of everyone involved.

Defence of polygamy reduces marriages to only a sexual relationship,whereas institution of marriage demads more than sex its about two indivijuals living a life for themselves and their children.

Rules:
your defence my counter attack
Debate Round No. 1
InVinoVeritas

Pro

Comments on definitions/introduction of CON:

"polygamy exclusively form of a 'polygyny'"
This quote that was presented by the opposition does not appear in the source. A more accurate quote from Thom Brooks in The Problem of Polygamy is "Today, 'polygamy' almost exclusively takes the form of polygyny." This statement, I concede, is absolutely true.

Moreover, established conditions stated that the "[f]irst arguments of both sides are strictly allotted for acceptance statement, setting terms of debate, and establishing definitions." The opposition disregarded these conditions and proceeded to introduce his argument ("Defence of polygamy reduces...") This lack of integrity is worth noting.

Argument:

Freedom of choice:
Traditionally, US law upholds the concept of freedom of choice. People have the right to choose who they form relationships with. We have the right to not have our family lives interfered, and we have a right to privacy. Although such rights are certainly not absolute, the government must take extreme care when crossing these bounds. In this situation, governmental perpetration of these bounds are not warranted.

A threat to the family unit?:
A family unit is not undermined simply by the addition of extra parental figures. All providers, regardless of number, can play a role in the home and in the family. Partners of the same sex in a polygamous relationship, usually women, develop a bond that is stronger than friendship, since they share the common goal of making the same man happy; this plays a critical role in forming a stable polygamous marriage. We see many issues in some monogamous marriages, such as unbalanced family roles between husband and wife and between siblings. It can be established that there are good polygamous marriages and bad polygamous marriages, just like there are good monogamous marriages and bad monogamous marriages. It can be ascertained that a good polygamous marriage is certainly more stable than a bad monogamous marriage.

One love?:
The concept that a person is only meant to be "in true love" with a single individual is false. This idea was formed through a specific culture (at a specific time and place) and has been adapted into our modern society. We forget, however, that many societies before us had accepted polygamous marriage. We must remember that this was not done so due to promiscuity, but rather a powerful desire to spend the rest of one's life with certain individuals, just like in a monogamous marriage.

Adultery:
In a polygamous marriage, there is less of a chance that adultery would take place, since there are many alternative available for sexual exploration. As an aside, though, this is not because the sole purpose of a polygamous marriage is to have sex, but rather because there is a sexual aspect to polygamous marriage, just as there is for a monogamous marriage.


coldmuse

Con

first of all my friend..polygamy as we are taking is in wider context...first of all polygamy as a term comprises of many forms of it practised(majority polygyny) ..and in different parts of the world in different societies and cultures and religions.so we are considering the broader part not just western culture.

Freedom Of choice:People of have the right to choose whatever they want but the government acts for the welfare of society.for the functioning of a society in a peaceful way and prevent chaos certain will of human are curbed by the law.thats what you are confusing with
Extra Marritial Aaffairs with polygamy.

A threat To the family unit:
How can you say that?Its practitioners hide behind religious fronts to justify a livelihood of lust, greed, and gluttony.
women in polygamous marriages are at higher risk oflow self-esteem, as well as depression, then women in non-polygamous relationships (AlKrenawi, et al 2002; Slonim-Nevo and Al-Krenawi 2006).

Other studies show that thesewomen are also enjoy less marital satisfaction and more problematic mother-childrelationships (Al-Krenawi and Slonim-Nevo 2008).

Further studies demonstratethat women in polygamous marriages are especially vulnerable to depression after becomingpregnant, as their husbands become more likely to turn their attention to their other wives(Fatoye, ct al 2004; Ho-Yen, et al 2007).

Women in polygamous marriages arc typicallysubservient to their husbands who hold their wives primarily responsible for child-bearing(Ghcr 2008: 584).These women arc often unable to exercise any control over the addition ofnew wives by their husbands, contributing to Iclings of powerlessness and emotional abuse(Cook 2007; Ilassounch-Phillips 2001).

Women may also lack control over their ability toseek employment, as several studies have Ibund that only a small fraction of women inpolygamous marriages work outside the home (Al-Krenawi 2000; Elbedour, et al 2002: 257;Peterson 1999).

Children from polygamous families may be at a greater
risk of several harmful effects
there is considerable research that children ofpolygamous families experience a higher incidence of marital conflict, family violence, andfamily disruptions than do children of monogamous families(Elbedour, ct al 2002).

Moreover, children from polygamous marriages are at a greater risk of both behavioural anddevelopmental problems (Elbedour, et al 2003).

There is also some evidence that young
women from polygamous families perform less well in school than those in monogamous
families (Elbedour, et al 2000).

One Love:i really wanted to ..
"problem with polygamy is gender inequality. The same religious pretexts to defend such family arrangements are one sided in that it is only acceptable for a man to marry multiple females, but not the other way around. For a woman to have multiple partners would be considered criminal within these religious cults, as it would be considered a sin, and the woman a slut. Why is it ok for a man to be a slut but not a woman?
unjustified love i would say....more suited word should be lust

Adultery:
it is worse ...if there is no satisfaction which already i have stated ..it is worse ..we are born to hate..u just can have harmony in relations some will suffer that is why moder socirty completely disrespects the idea of polygamy.it's just cannot exists in todays world
Polygamy-
Debate Round No. 2
InVinoVeritas

Pro

Observations:
A vast majority of the opposition's arguments are simply comprised of mini-summaries of the work "The Problem of Polygamy," by Thom Brooks. No original sources were listed for citations.
Moreover, please note the immense flaws of he opposition's grammar and spelling, which are so major that they interfere with the clarity of his claims.

Freedom of Choice:

"for the functioning of a society in a peaceful way and prevent chaos certain will of human are curbed by the law.thats what you are confusing with...Extra Marritial Aaffairs [sic] with polygamy."

The opposition baselessly makes the claim that polygamy, unlike the practice of extramarrital affairs, causes society to not function in a peaceful way and causes chaos, so it requires government intervention. This is a very strong claim without any basis; the opposition has yet to present evidence that relates polygamy with an increase in chaos and destruction of peace in society. Moreover, let us note that "peace" and "chaos" are subjective, indefinite terms.

A Threat to the Family Unit:

"How can you say that?Its practitioners hide behind religious fronts to justify a livelihood of lust, greed, and gluttony."

The evidence that follows does not substantiate this claim, as you will see.

"Other studies show that thesewomen [sic] are also enjoy less marital satisfaction and more problematic mother-childrelationships (Al-Krenawi and Slonim-Nevo 2008)."

When entering a polygamous marriage is voluntary, it is a woman's choice to be part of the union. If she does not get marital satisfaction from it, she may leave the marriage. In the case that other parties do not allow the woman to leave, this is FORCED MARRIAGE, which is not constitutional in the United States and is NOT an innate part of a polygamous marriage.

"Further studies demonstratethat [sic] women in polygamous marriages are especially vulnerable to depression after becomingpregnant, as their husbands become more likely to turn their attention to their other wives(Fatoye, ct al 2004; Ho-Yen, et al 2007)."

When a woman in a monogamous marriage gets pregnant, she is also oftentimes treated with less affection by her husband. She becomes less attractive to him. It is not very uncommon for a man to cheat on his pregnant wife in monogamous relationship [1]; this too leads to depression. Much of the cheating on pregnant women in monogamous is with women who the wife is not familiar with. In a polygamous marriage, the pregnant wife is typically already comfortable with the fact that the husband has multiple wives, so when the sexual attention shifts away from her, she would be mentally prepared.

"Women in polygamous marriages arc typicallysubservient to their husbands who hold their wives primarily responsible for child-bearing(Ghcr 2008: 584).These women arc often unable to exercise any control over the addition ofnew wives by their husbands, contributing to Iclings of powerlessness and emotional abuse(Cook 2007; Ilassounch-Phillips 2001)."

This has more to do with the fact that many polygamist marriages involve very fundamental religious people. The subservience of the women is more likely a correlation to the religiousness of many of the people involved in the polygamous marriages rather than the polygamous marriages themselves. In monogamous marriages between fundamentalist Christian people, we can see that the woman is also subservient [2]. It has nothing to do with the number of parties in the marriage.

"Women may also lack control over their ability toseek employment, as several studies have Ibund that only a small fraction of women inpolygamous marriages work outside the home (Al-Krenawi 2000; Elbedour, et al 2002: 257;Peterson 1999)."

This is also due to the fact that many polygamous marriages involve very religious people whose religious values say that women should not work. This has nothing to do with the idea of polygamous marriage itself, which is unaffiliated with religious beliefs of parties.

"Children from polygamous families may be at a greater risk of several harmful effects there is considerable research that children ofpolygamous families experience a higher incidence of marital conflict, family violence, andfamily disruptions than do children of monogamous families(Elbedour, ct al 2002)."
"Moreover, children from polygamous marriages are at a greater risk of both behavioural anddevelopmental problems (Elbedour, et al 2003)."
"There is also some evidence that young women from polygamous families perform less well in school than those in monogamous families (Elbedour, et al 2000)."

There is a difference between causation and correlation. There is no evidence that polygamous marriages CAUSE conflict, violence, disruptions, and poor school performance. There is a correlation, however, and this may be due to MANY things, such as the fact that many of the people involved in polygamous marriages are undereducated and hold very traditional values. There are MANY secondary factors that can be the cause of these issues. Again, there is NO EVIDENCE that polygamous marriage itself CAUSES the aforementioned problems.

One Love:

"problem with polygamy is gender inequality. The same religious pretexts to defend such family arrangements are one sided in that it is only acceptable for a man to marry multiple females, but not the other way around. For a woman to have multiple partners would be considered criminal within these religious cults, as it would be considered a sin, and the woman a slut. Why is it ok for a man to be a slut but not a woman?"

It is important to point out the oppositions use of the word "religious cult." Polygamous marriage is not affiliated with any religion or with any religious ideas. It just so happens, however, that many people who are involved in these marriages are very religious and believe that these marriages should be polygynous (one male and multiple women.) The institution of polygamy is not to blame for this; it is the fault of the religious beliefs of many of the parties who choose to be in these marriages.

Adultery:

Based on the opposition's barely understandable response to this matter, it seems that he has completely dodged the issue and instead referred back to past arguments that I have already refuted.


In conclusion...

The opponent has indirectly refuted PRO's initial claims; this may be due to the fact that a majority of the opponent's refutations are simply citations from a single article that were, as one could assume, mechanically copied without regard for the initial claims at hand. And all of CON's refutations have been effectively countered. Hence, PRO is the clear victor.

Thank you.

coldmuse

Con

My dear friend is too much considered about winning this debate.
and he is trying to be the judge of this debate...

My dear friend in round one states the definition of polygamy as
"Polygamy": a marriage which involves >2 partners

Ok now this definition does not include the consent of both the partners involved .
now that is POLYAMORY as stated by me in round one.

now he is trying win ground by just taking out flaws in my writing and saying that my source is not authentic.
My claims are copied but certainly not wrong , they are true in many parts of this world.and about my writing i am not writing essays here my mind works and i just type.

My dear friend does not want look outside united states..and has not looked into the ill effects of polygamy(he still confused with polygyny and polyamory).

My friend has taken factors like 'one love', 'freedom of choice' to debate on this topic,these factors only apply to a single person and people associated with it,and we all know many women in different parts of world are dominated by men they are also forced in these types of marriages.that is why modern society only sees 'polygyny'.



Read to Find out why polygamy just ca't exist in modern world.

http://gonzoreality.wordpress.com...

Gender Inequality.
Since the number of babies born are near equal male vs female, for a man to take extra mates leaves that many men without mates. For the mathematically challenged, if a man has 4 wives, that leaves three (3) men with no wives, no mates, no outlets for the sexual desires, no chance at a family life, and no fulfillment that is afforded by having a family.

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com...


Here are some real life accounts of people who suffered from these type of marriages

http://helpthechildbrides.com...
http://jezebel.com...




Debate Round No. 3
InVinoVeritas

Pro

"Ok now this definition does not include the consent of both the partners involved .
now that is POLYAMORY as stated by me in round one."
The opposition is still trying to say that polygamy does not involve consent. Like I said, a lack of consent between parties in marriage is FORCED MARRIAGE, which is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. Forced marriage is a problem that can occur in any form of marriage, polygamous or not.

"many women in different parts of world are dominated by men they are also forced in these types of marriages."
Again, this is NOT a debate about forced marriage. Many women are FORCED to be in monogamous marriages, too... Does that mean that we should get rid of the entire institution of marriage altogether? This issue is not directly related to polygamy; "forced marriage" has nothing to do with the basic definition of polygamy.

"Since the number of babies born are near equal male vs female, for a man to take extra mates leaves that many men without mates."
The opposition poses a very hypothetical argument that is reminiscent of one that is often used against gay marriages ("if everyone became homosexual, no one would make babies.") Not everyone wants to be in a polygamist marriage; in fact, a very vast minority does. Hence, such a hypothetical prediction of large-scale ramifications is unwarranted.

Personal Accounts:
These people did not have problems with polygamy itself, but rather with family issues that can sometimes be present in monogamous marriages. Attributing their issues to the fact that they are in polygamist marriages is not logically sound. If one were to go to a battered women's shelter, one could hear personal accounts of women in monogamous marriages whose husbands beat them and cheat on them. Polygamy itself is not the cause of these problems.


I would like to thank the opposition for participating in this debate with me. I would like to remind voters that voting is not based on opinion but rather effectiveness of argument. Hence, vote PRO.


coldmuse

Con

nice debating you my friend.
YOU ARE HUNGRY FOR A WIN I SEEM IN THIS DEBATE
WISH U GOOD LUCK

IT'S NOW UPTO MEMBERS TO DECIDE
Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by alto2osu 5 years ago
alto2osu
I was asked by a debater to review this, so here I go =p First of all, both sides need to shore up their arguments. The entirety of the first couple rounds is warrantless claims and weak argumentation. There are plenty of good, evidenced reasons to prefer and dislike polygyny, but neither side really captures any of them.

For example. Con, you make this really strange argument in the first round about polygyny encouraging relationships only based on sex. Monogamy, as you claim, results in partnerships that revolve around only the spouse and the offspring. Evidence, plawks? Marriage, as a religious institution, is always first and foremost about procreation. Doesn't matter if you have 1 or 100 partners. Read up on religious doctrine. The argument you make here is non-unique.

Pro does the same thing with his arguments as well. Example: the entire family unit argument just needs to go. Not only does it carry some disturbing misogynistic undertones (women will be united in their quest to make their shared man happy???), but that's not a compelling reason to accept polygyny. It's entirely unevidenced, and will continue to be because beyond a really talented mind reader, there's no way to observe this accurately.

The arguments that follow are unclear and disorganized, and I have to disagree with Roy about the single source. You CAN use a single source, but in my opinion, it is so much easier to appear to know what the hell you are talking about if you branch out and find more than one guy who agrees with you.

When I vote, I have to do it primarily on organization and "cleanness" of the debate. Pro presents some decently readable refutations after the second round. Though the arguments he's given in the beginning aren't great, he cleans it up later. Con does this weird Yoda thing and tries to basically slander Pro by repeating "he's going for the win" instead of offering valid refutations to a lot of arguments.
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
I think it is okay to go to a single source and copy it, so long as the source is acknowledged and that the debater then defends it. Some people on the site would object to that, I'm sure, probably because it wouldn't be allowed for a school exercise. My thinking is based upon the premise that a debate is all about the logic and facts relevant to the subject, not about who composed the words. It's possible that an author puts together the argument better than anyone else, so I don't see any point in expressing it less well for the sake of originality. School work is judged on originality, but here I think it's all about the facts and logic employed.

What's not acceptable is to just make a reference to document and claim that it expresses the arguments. The words have to be copied to fit within the word limits of the debate. It's also not acceptable to fail to acknowledge the source. if you suspect someone of copying without acknowledgement, try a Google search with some peculiar phrase from the suspected text.

Often the person copying arguments proves unable to defend them in the next round, but that's not necessarily the case.
Posted by coldmuse 5 years ago
coldmuse
in my final argument i have tried to put up more sources..
Posted by InVinoVeritas 5 years ago
InVinoVeritas
So, I'm new to Debate.org. Is it okay to just go to a single document that supports your case and compose an argument simply by copying down quotes from the document?

I might as well have been debating with the author of the original article being used...
Posted by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
It's legal for any number of people to live together an have whatever relationship they want. Issues arise from the legal benefits conferred by official marriage. For example, all the spouses would get Social Security and welfare benefits. Large numbers of non-citizens could be married by one person in order to convey rights to US residency.

Legal rights problems aside, what are the benefits to society from legalizing polygamy? There seem to be none.
Posted by alto2osu 5 years ago
alto2osu
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww where was I when this went up? -.- This debate is a fun one :)
Posted by InVinoVeritas 5 years ago
InVinoVeritas
My apologies. Citations for my second argument:
[1] http://moms.today.msnbc.msn.com...
[2] http://atheism.about.com...
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by rogue 5 years ago
rogue
InVinoVeritascoldmuseTied
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Total points awarded:52 
Reasons for voting decision: Con did not support his arguments very well, whereas Pro made rational arguments.
Vote Placed by alto2osu 5 years ago
alto2osu
InVinoVeritascoldmuseTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Said most of it in the comments. Arguments weren't compelling but Pro was readable.
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
InVinoVeritascoldmuseTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's arguments were difficult to follow due to the many S