The Instigator
Seekeroftruth469
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
Ragnar_Rahl
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

Legend of the Seeker stays true to The Sword of Truth books.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/29/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,308 times Debate No: 9874
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (5)

 

Seekeroftruth469

Pro

The Legend of the Seeker, based on Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth book series, has certainly taken some liberties with the show but still stays true to the story.

Ignoring all the massive liberties taken with the show I will explain why this show stays true to the books. to an Extent at least.

1. The original story of Richard accepting the position of Seeker and undertaking the quest to defeat Darken Rahl and gather the Boxes of Orden are still there.

2. Zedd is still his Grandfather.

3. Kahlan is still the Mother Confessor.

4. The Mord-Sith were kept exactly the same.

5. Episode 9 Puppeteer was pulled straight from the book with zedd taking the place as Giller.

6. Richard and Kahlan aknowledge that the love they share cannot be acted upon.

7. Season 2. Defeating Darken Rahl tore the veil to the Underworld and it can only be repaired wit the Stone of Tears.

8. Richard becomes Lord Rahl.

9. Little details. Kahlan's special smile, Richard's raptor gaze, Zedd's voracious hunger, the distinctive ring of the Sword of Truth are all in the show. At one point in the show Richard stares continously at Denn'as braid as she is talking to Kahlan. the one thing Richard found pleasing about Denna in the book.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

In order to "Stay true to a book," you can alter a few details, but not if they are crucial to the climax, theme, or character.

In the book, Richard is presented as incorruptible and the boxes of Orden as a neutral force.

Indeed, a major theme throughout the books is that power can be used for both good and evil-- by book 3 Richard is indisputably ruler of the same land that his father once was, with the same unconditional authority in both law and fact (Actually MORE in law, even the illusion of Midlands sovereignty is abolished by Richard).

In the show, the boxes of Order corrupt Richard on the grounds of too much power. This means we are dealing with a fundamentally different Richard, and, indeed, a fundamentally different moral universe.

In the books, love conquers, if not all, at least all illusions of it-- the Confessor's power has no effect on Richard, there is no trace of lack of love for Kahlan for it to overwrite. This is used as a tool in the climax, which deals in the Book 1 theme of "People are stupid." Not understanding the nature of what it is Confession does (not understanding what love is), but nevertheless wanting the consequences enough to believe whatever he's told, Darken Rahl pays the price by opening the wrong box.

In the show, Kahlan's confession power is quite powerful toward Richard, even if it reacts with other magic that prevents it from fulfilling its proper purpose, if it were neutral already no such reaction would be possible-- and no other such trick that preserves the "People are stupid" theme is present.

Also, the boxes are destroyed in the show. This prevents the series from progressing later on, when Richard (Quite unaided by any confession) uses them to banish the Imperial Order and its sympathizers to our world after creating it. Furthermore, the boxes of Orden ARE supposed to be the gateway to the underworld, the tearer of the veil for the purpose of the stone of tears, in the books. Since they are destroyed, there should be no gate for Darken Rahl to come through.
Debate Round No. 1
Seekeroftruth469

Pro

Hello Ragnar, I am so glad to meet you. Others may think that I am stupid for thinking of the show this way but in the end all it is is my opinion. Its great to meet another fan of the books. We have that in common at least. I'm not the best debater but I will still stress my point.

Perhaps I should have said that the show remains true to the plot of the books. I certainly did not mean to say that it was a perfect adaptation of the books so forgive me for that.

"Indeed, a major theme throughout the books is that power can be used for both good and evil-- by book 3 Richard is indisputably ruler of the same land that his father once was, with the same unconditional authority in both law and fact (Actually MORE in law, even the illusion of Midlands sovereignty is abolished by Richard)."

I don't think that this argument can be fully resolved since season 2 doesn't air until next week but judging by what I have seen in the season 2 promotional trailers, it seems that Richard will indeed be taking up the mantle of Lord Rahl. In the show, it appears that Darken Rahl and Richard are brothers. To me that is not a major change from the books at all. As long as Richard has the blood of a Rahl pulsing through his veins he can still become the next Lord Rahl. If Darken Rahl had been his brother in the first book, the book would most likely still be exactly the same as it is now, just with that small detail changed.

"In the show, the boxes of Order corrupt Richard on the grounds of too much power. This means we are dealing with a fundamentally different Richard, and, indeed, a fundamentally different moral universe."

I concede to this point. Well played. Maybe I posted this debate prematurely. However, it does not mean that it is a morally different universe. Since the show only seems to be just beginning whose to say that the Power of Orden won't show up again.

"Also, the boxes are destroyed in the show. This prevents the series from progressing later on, when Richard (Quite unaided by any confession) uses them to banish the Imperial Order and its sympathizers to our world after creating it. Furthermore, the boxes of Orden ARE supposed to be the gateway to the underworld, the tearer of the veil for the purpose of the stone of tears, in the books. Since they are destroyed, there should be no gate for Darken Rahl to come through."

As I said, whose to say the power of Orden won't show up again later? The plot of season 2 is indeed about the Power of Orden tearing the veil of the Underworld, and the need for the Stone of Tears. Darken Rahl shows up through this gate and marks Richard on his chest in the season 2 premier. just watch a few of the season 2 previews yourself.
I am also presenting a strong case that the Imperial Order will indeed be in the show. There is an episode in season 2 called Perdition. In the books, the Order managed to escape the Old World due to Richard bringing down the Towers of Perdition. I believe that I have posted a standing debate there.

"In the books, love conquers, if not all, at least all illusions of it-- the Confessor's power has no effect on Richard, there is no trace of lack of love for Kahlan for it to overwrite. This is used as a tool in the climax, which deals in the Book 1 theme of "People are stupid." Not understanding the nature of what it is Confession does (not understanding what love is), but nevertheless wanting the consequences enough to believe whatever he's told, Darken Rahl pays the price by opening the wrong box."

"In the show, Kahlan's confession power is quite powerful toward Richard, even if it reacts with other magic that prevents it from fulfilling its proper purpose, if it were neutral already no such reaction would be possible-- and no other such trick that preserves the "People are stupid" theme is present"

I can agree and fully sympathize with the disappointment of Richard and Kahlan still being unable to be together. But that doesn't say that it wont happen later on. But their love conquered numerous times throughout the show and how Kahlan's love for Richard, even across the endless expanse of time, contributed to their final victory against Darken Rahl. However in the season 1 finale, the "people are stupid" scenario is indeed used. Richard convinces Shota to go to Darken Rahl's son. Though she becomes a victim of his confession powers, it was Richard's plan for her to. Darken Rahl's son is fooled into believing that he had the solution to his problem but only ended up paying for it. In my OPINION, the "people are stupid' rule was indeed used in the season 1 finale towards Richard's victory.

But as I said, the series remains true to the story within the books. The plot of season 1 is the same as the book. Just as season 2 follows the Stone of Tears plot.

I look forward to our next conversation
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

"

I don't think that this argument can be fully resolved since season 2 doesn't air until next week but judging by what I have seen in the season 2 promotional trailers, it seems that Richard will indeed be taking up the mantle of Lord Rahl. In the show, it appears that Darken Rahl and Richard are brothers. To me that is not a major change from the books at all. As long as Richard has the blood of a Rahl pulsing through his veins he can still become the next Lord Rahl."
This ignores the reason I brought it up. I did not seek to impugn the chances that the show will still allow for him to be Lord Rahl-- rather, I used the Lord Rahl authority as an example of great power in the books that resulted in no corruption for Richard, contrary to the show's worldview "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

:I concede to this point. Well played. Maybe I posted this debate prematurely. However, it does not mean that it is a morally different universe. Since the show only seems to be just beginning whose to say that the Power of Orden won't show up again.
This is not particularly a response to what I said there either.

:As I said, whose to say the power of Orden won't show up again later?
If the show is to have a semblance of truth to the books, Richard never masters his war wizardry, except temporarily by borrowed knowledge in the Temple of the Winds (Mastery of a peculiar point of use of Orden is insufficient to establish mastery to the point of being able to create the boxes, and even that only occurs at the end of the series) -- and thus cannot recreate Orden.
Since Orden clearly requires a wizrard gifted with both additive and subtractive magic (The latter of which was banished to the Temple, the sole exception being Richard by a specific action of Baracus), no one else can either.

The only way to explain it would thus be something along the lines of "It's all a dream" in response to their being destroyed, which is thematically inconsistent with Chainfire and is the literature version of the kind art Richard DESPISED having to make in Faith of the Fallen :P.

:can agree and fully sympathize with the disappointment of Richard and Kahlan still being unable to be together. But that doesn't say that it wont happen later on.
This,again, is not what I was talking about. They are quite able to be together, with either the niced-- up version the show has of James the artist or with Rachel's later capacity for the same art-magc, at any time the show's makers choose to. The inconsistency is not "they cannot be together" but the nature of love and how it interacts with its counterfeit.

"However in the season 1 finale, the "people are stupid" scenario is indeed used. Richard convinces Shota to go to Darken Rahl's son. Though she becomes a victim of his confession powers, it was Richard's plan for her to. Darken Rahl's son is fooled into believing that he had the solution to his problem but only ended up paying for it."
Using "People are stupid" on some spoiled brat from far in the future is not nearly so relevant to the story as using it on the major villain of the here and now.

"The plot of season 1 is the same as the book."
That's just it. It isn't. Was there anything in the book about time travel? :P
Debate Round No. 2
Seekeroftruth469

Pro

I must apologize for my lateness in posting. I would like to begin by saying. I did not dodge your questions or try to ignore them at all. If it seems I'm missing the point or dodging a question I'm not. I try my best to address every point as it is presented to me. So instead of saying I ignore a point you bring up, just assume I haven't gotten to it or forgot to mention it....now...

"This ignores the reason I brought it up. I did not seek to impugn the chances that the show will still allow for him to be Lord Rahl-- rather, I used the Lord Rahl authority as an example of great power in the books that resulted in no corruption for Richard, contrary to the show's worldview "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." "

Ok you said I failed to address how Richard is supposed to be incorruptible, which I did. My only response to that is this...But I said going in to this debate in my very first post that there were many liberties taken with the show, that I can agree with on all accounts. When I say that the show is true to the books, I don't mean an exact literal translation. Maybe I should have been more specific. It really is my fault. The point I am trying to make with this debate is that the story is indeed the same. Well the overall story is the same.

Season 1: Richard rises up to accept his destiny as the Seeker. To be a force for good in the world in defense against Darken Rahl's tyranny. Richard's quest is to hunt down and kill Darken Rahl before he can use the Power of Orden. Sounds like the first book to me...

Season 2: After using the Power of Orden to defeat Darken Rahl, Orden's power tears the veil of the Underworld, bringing about a new threat that can only be stopped with the Stone of Tears. Also sounds like the second book. Darken Rahl comes through the veil to mark Richard.

"That's just it. It isn't. Was there anything in the book about time travel? :P"

Of course not. There were many episodes with content not seen in the books but the root story, the goal was just the same as the first book. No matter how many changes were made to the content and adventures within the book, the root story was kept the same. To me, a show is loyal to a book if it follows the root story.

In the books, love conquers, if not all, at least all illusions of it-- the Confessor's power has no effect on Richard, there is no trace of lack of love for Kahlan for it to overwrite.

This is true. though it may be late in coming, Kahlan's confession power may very well have no effect on Richard in the show. it hasn't been tried on its own yet. A theory I have about the finale is that Richard wasn't really focusing on his love for Kahlan, and he didn't let her confess him out of love but out of a need to save the world. I still believe that when the show gets around to it, they will show that Richard is indeed immune to her confessor's touch. In the book, he wanted her to confess him out of his love for her, that's why I think it didn't work and the show can still do that. I can list a few examples of when love has conquered all in the show. This may be a stretch though.

Denna: If Kahlan hadn't given Richard that look of longing and desperation when Richard was holding the knife, who knows how long he would have been under Denna's influence? He may have actually gone through with the plan to kill Kahlan.

Home: Only Kahlan's confession of love was enough to bring Richard out of his dream-like state.

Conversion.: The Con-Dar was evoked through Kahlan's need to protect Richard.

Reckoning: Kahlan loved Richard enough to bear Darken Rahl's child with the intention of helping Richard find his way back through time.

Though most of these events did not take place in the books, "love conquers all" is a very prevalent theme in the television show actually.

I really hope you can agree with some of my points.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

"Staying true" to a book does not consist of matching a 4 sentence synopsis of it. It may not require matching every detail-- but character, theme, and climax are crucial to the essence of a story. None of the above match, as I have demonstrated.

Let's say I took Star Wars. Luke Skywalker still leaves chasing after his android, and stormtroopers kill the couple that raised him. He goes on a mission to aid resistance to the powers that be. Eventually he blows a giant superweapon to bits, and fights his father, pretty much second in command of the universe.

Except Luke finds the blueprints for the superweapon and goes mad for a while, blowing both the Jedi and Sith to bits.

Is it true to the original story? No. It might be valid art (I enjoy Legend of the Seeker) but its characters are fundamentally different, and indeed so too is the world, however superficially it may copy the plot structure (which by the way, a lot of books have the same basic plot structure-- is The Wheel of Time true to the Sword of Truth? No and vice versa. Different stories, even if in places they can have very similar plot structures. )

""love conquers all" is a very prevalent theme in the television show actually."
Conquers some more like, or it would take more than "having his attention somewhere else" for Kahlan's confession to be a nonneutralized element in the time travel.
Debate Round No. 3
Seekeroftruth469

Pro

Seekeroftruth469 forfeited this round.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

My arteries are still clogged from the last KFFs
Debate Round No. 4
Seekeroftruth469

Pro

What are KFF's? sorry about that last round, I was't able to post. I have decided not to press this any further. I mean we both have differentiating opinions and thats cool. I'd just assume to end this by saying we are both fans of the books nad the show and that's all that matters.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

KFF's are kentucky fried forfeits.

And yes, I'm quite glad of the economies of scale resulting from a shared aesthetics :)
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
An odd world where the only vote is for the forfeiter.
Posted by Xer 7 years ago
Xer
I knew R_R would take this.
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
Welcome to the site. If you are interested in a thoughtful debate with the possibility of winning, I would suggest taking the time to better develop your opening argument. Use sources, give details, set parameters, and you'll be good to go =D
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by aoibhinn 7 years ago
aoibhinn
Seekeroftruth469Ragnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Vote Placed by Marauder 7 years ago
Marauder
Seekeroftruth469Ragnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Xer 7 years ago
Xer
Seekeroftruth469Ragnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by wonderwoman 7 years ago
wonderwoman
Seekeroftruth469Ragnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Seekeroftruth469 7 years ago
Seekeroftruth469
Seekeroftruth469Ragnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70