The Instigator
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Losing
37 Points
The Contender
Kleptin
Pro (for)
Winning
43 Points

Lelouch's plan to aid Japan is better than Suzaku's.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/15/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,654 times Debate No: 4052
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (21)
Votes (17)

 

Logical-Master

Con

For those unfamiliar, this is a debate over Code Geass.

Anyway, my opening argument shall be swift.

It must be noted that Lelouch is an advocate of "the ends justify the means." This has led him to let countless innocents die in order to strategically win battles that would help in liberating Japan. It must also be noted that Lelouch's real goal isn't necessarily about liberating Japan, but upon taking over Brittania so that his sister (Nunally) will have a nice world to live in. However, Lelouch has gone so far to achieve this goal as to abandon the Japanese liberation (Black knights on episode 25 of season 1) in pursuit of his sister's survival. Clearly, Lelouch's plan is a plan that can easily jeapordize the lives of the Japanese at any time and perhaps even send them all to their graves.

On the other hand, Suzaku's plan involves no bloodshed for Japan. His goal is to protect Japan through becoming the highest ranking Knight. For in becoming the highest ranking Knight, he is permitted reign over one section of Brittania (which he has chosen as Japan). This involves no bloodshed of the Japanese, involves the safety of the Japanese as the highest priority, and is a plan which Lelouch's own sister prefers. Given that this is the case, it is quite clear who has the better plan.

With that said, I now stand ready for my opponent's rebuttal.
Kleptin

Pro

I thank my opponent for the challenge and look forward to an excellent debate.

While my opponent correctly states that Lelouch's method of liberating Japan involves much more bloodshed than Suzaku's in the short run, there are many important factors he has not taken into consideration.

The first is Charles Di Britannia, Lelouch's father and Emperor of Britannia. As top Knight of the Rounds, it is true that Suzaku would be able to, in a way, liberate Area 11 but he would still be under the control of Di Britannia. We know from R2 that Di Britannia has the mystical power known as Geass as well, given to him by V.V. The contract that they drew up was to "slay the gods". We can assume that this man is not only very dangerous, but also very evil. Suzaku's "reign" will be short lived and useless in the long run so long as this man exists and Lelouch is not able to wipe him out. The very world may end if Di Britannia finds a way to fulfill his contract.

The second is the Chinese Federation. For quite some time, the Chinese Federation has been trying to conquer Area 11. Now, they are in negotiations with Britannia. We can assume that Britannia will never give up Area 11 because of the massive amounts of sakuradite in Mt. Fuji. In addition, it also serves as a good buffer zone geographically between the Britannian empire and the Chinese Federation. If Lelouch succeeds, he will probably cede Area 11 over to the Chinese without a fight, because his goal is not political power, rather, it is a world in which Nunally can be safe. If Suzaku goes through with his plan, Lelouch will lose everything, and The Chinese Federation will eventually go to war with Britannia over Area 11, causing much more bloodshed.

Thus, while a Suzaku triumph may provide temporary relief without any bloodshed, a Lelouch triumph will ensure political stability in the long run.
Debate Round No. 1
Logical-Master

Con

TURN 02!

My move!!

First, let us address my opponent's contention concerning Charles Di Brittania. First, Charles Di Brittania is clearly much older than Suzaku, and would thus die long before Suzaku's reign ended (but more on Charles Di Brittania later). Second, with complete reign over Japan, none of the king's influence would impact Japan (other than Brittanian taxes, which ABSOLUTELY NO ONE in the series complains about). Third, to suggest that the very world may end is not only baselss conjecture, but also unlikely, given that Charles Di Brittania wouldn't agree to a contract that would compromise his authority over the world. Fourth, even if Lelouch did kill Charles Di Brittania, he would never be able to eliminate the real one who is pulling the strings; he would never be able to eliminate V.V. This is not only because V.V. is immune to the powers of the Geass, but is also immortal. Which leads me to the next point in the next paragraph.

Even if Lelouch were to conquer Brittania, the threat of V.V. would still exist. V.V. could simply wait until Lelouch dies, find someone even more evil and sinister than Charles Di Brittania, and resume where he left off. Hence, Lelouch's plan not only consist of more blood shed, but is inevitably pointless.

Next, we must consider that the rate of Lelouch's success is highy unlikely. First, there is the matter of Nunally. Being his sister, and being opposed to his plan's, this has cost Lelouch some crucial battles. Trying to save her cost him the entire decisive battle that would have liberated Japan on episode 25 of season 1. In the most recent episode, he had lost due to Nunally's appearance. And now that she is actually a govenor of Japan, it is only all the more likely that his plan will fail, given that he refuses to kill Nunally. Add that to the fact that Nunally has sided with Suzaku, and this makes Lelouch's plan all the more of a failure. Furthermore, it is not just Nunally who impedes Lelouch's plans, but anyone close to Lelouch as well (Shirley and C.C. are good examples). The emperor is well aware of this and is willing to use those close to Lelouch as a shield. The same cannot be said for Suzaku. Suzaku is willing to take action even if it involves sacrificing his close friends (as shown by his betrayal against Lelouch as well as the fact that he killed his own father). Furthermore, Lelouch will meet his intellectual match soon enough as he has yet to face Schneizel El Britannia (prince of brittania). Not only is he suggested as being a vastly superior (in that he had defeated Lelouch countless times in chess during their childhood), but also has the whole Brittanian army to cordinate his strategies (thus, Lelouch is not only beaten in smarts, but sheer numbers as well).

At the same time, there is hardly anything that would impede Suzaku from becoming Knight of One. In fact, given his super human abilities (on foot, he managed wall run while doding an automatic machine gun and he also managed to avoid beign shot by Lelouch while at point blank range and his impressive ability to counter strategies with real time tactics), it is very likely that he will gain the position of Knight of One shortly.

Now, as for this Chinese Federation argument, it actually more beneficial for my case than it is my opponent's. I'll agree with my opponent on the matter that Brittania will never give up area level due to its resources, however, the fact of the matter is that at least Suzaku's methods don't involve handing the nation of japan over to a foreign nation (which for all we know, would act no differently than Brittania has acted). Furthermore, it is safe to say that the Chinese Federation simply doesn't stand a chance against Brittania's forces due to their superior Knightmares. In fact, if Brittania were to sick the entire Knight of the round (we've seen that suzaku alone can solo an entire platoon without breaking a sweat, and he is ranked as the 7th knight) forces on the chinese federation combined with the tactical abilities of Scheneizal El Brittania (someone who surpasses Lelouch when it comes to strategical talents), they wouldn't stand a chance (and the battle wouldn't have to take place in the Area 11 terroritory). In fact, this is part of the reason the Chinese has to reduce itself to allying with some Brittanian terrorist militia (the black Knights). Also, to answer the argument my opponent will likely respond with, the only reason Brittania has not already conquered the Chinese Federation is because there being no real motivation. After all, they need the Japan because of it's resources, but as far as we can tell, there's nothing of real gain in conquering the Chinese Federation. Furthermore, they are harldy a threat due to Brittania's sheer man power, technological status, geographical advantages, and tacticions.

Finally, Suzaku's reign would provide sufficient time for Nunally's plan to be kicked into high gear. of course, even if that isn't an option, Suzaku could simply train a replacement. On the other hand, getting a replacement is something lelouch wouldn't be concerned with as he is only concerned with Nunally's happiness. Thus, it is doubtful that he would train a second in command to take over if/when he dies of old age.

So far in this debate, the main point to keep in mind is that Lelouch is more concerned with Nunally than he is with the welfare of Japan. As suggested above, Lelouch has comrpromised Japan's safety before for the sake of Nunally, so there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't do so again. Add all of this to the fact that Lelouch is willing to allow many Japanese to be slaughtered for the sake of his own wants, and it is once more pretty apparent as to who has the superior plan when it comes to Japan's well being.
Kleptin

Pro

Kleptin forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Logical-Master

Con

Unfortunately, my esteemed opponent forfeited his last round. Thus, you are to extend all of my arguments to this round. Since I have no way of responding, if PRO attempts to present new evidence/arguments in the next round, you're to dimiss them entirely.

With that said, thanks for the debate. Vote CON.
Kleptin

Pro

I apologize to my opponent. This is probably the first time I've accidentally forfeited a round. Although I have responses, It would be unfair of me to respond. Thus, I thank my opponent for the debate and leave the rest to the voters XD

::Uses Geass::

YOU WILL ALL VOTE FOR ME!
Debate Round No. 3
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Korezaan 8 years ago
Korezaan
OMG Turn08 IS SO F*CKING SWEET

You're so right, LM xDDDDD
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! You clever bastard, Zero! I did not even remotely see this coming. That's what I love this show. I guess it's good this debate didn't continue here as Kleptin would've given me quite the whupping. :D
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
It was like that for me for the first part of the series, but I completely disowned Suzaku's mindset and likability when he sold Lelouch to the Emperor. In fact, that was one of the only times an anime has managed to give me feelings of anger without screwing up the plot. I guess what I'm saying is that I cannot help but think of Suzaku as a villain right now. Indeed though, good show.

Now to go watch Turn 08. :D
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Yes, your highness. *votes PRO*
Posted by Korezaan 8 years ago
Korezaan
He's on my favorite characters list because his way of thinking makes sense to me. Aside from the awesome animation, pwnage mecha, uber hot chicks and completely epic music, the moral questions that Code Geass poses is pretty much why I watch the anime. The main representatives of the opposing sides are obviously Suzaku and Lelouch, and since I can find myself agreeing with both of their mindsets, they are both among my list of favorite characters.

Under the definitions of Lelouch's plan as "Overthrowing Britannia" and Suzaku's as "Reforming Britannia", I would go AFF on this resolution.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Ha! Most of the people I know hate him because he comes off as mary sue character most of the time. Which leads me to another question: Do you agree of disagree with the resolution?
Posted by Korezaan 8 years ago
Korezaan
He ranks among my favorite characters, yes.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Hmm, I probably should have phrased that a bit better. Rather, I wish to know if you he ranks among your favorite or least favorite characters.
Posted by Korezaan 8 years ago
Korezaan
Yeah, that's true for Ep14. I still loved it though. Few things break my heart.

What do you mean by "as a character"?
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
LOL, that was genius as well.

Episode 14, at least to me, has made it somewhat ambiguous as to who Lelouch will end up with in the end. I think the writer will probably stick with an open ended ending in terms of the pairings.

By the way, as a character, do you like or dislike Suzaku?
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