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boagart_303
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The Contender
charleslb
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27 Points

Liberal Psychology

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/31/2010 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,886 times Debate No: 13523
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (6)

 

boagart_303

Con

Its a good strategy to attempt to explain modern conservative mentalities by analysing the individuals that represent this mindset. Arguing against conservatism and generalizing the entire spectrum into a single consciouness is exactly what conservatism isnt, that is liberals and communists( and for them to understand conservatism they have to collectivize it under one banner). Conservatives are individuals, thus when you attack this spectrum it means nothing to conservative minded people, because you havent offended us. Everything you have mentioned is explained by a minority group of christian/conservatives that are anti abortion and pro war in the U.S and doesnt portray the essence of conservatism.

So let me educate you what conservatism really is. Regardless if you can understand this mindset or not it makes no difference. Conservatism is having sunday dinner with my family and not talking about topics that would make parents think what did I do to make this person who he is today? Left wingers, when their eating on the floor in a library or on the street with their marginalized friends can only talk about the worst things happening to them( I will explain).

The left is intoxicated on guilt. The left cant exist without guilt and inferior minded people. Always trying to understand why people dont have what they have and briding that gap. Leftists are more racist then conservatives; conservatives just want to be left alone! Left wingers represented institutionally, through the news, politics and theory are lead by priviledged WHITES! However, they associate with groups of people that they think are inferior so they can alleviate them and themselves, but to distinguish between poor and rich the modern leftist himself has TO BE RACIST to notice this. He has to notice that blacks are poorer, that women get paid less; and they gravitate towards this weakness, this pure guilt trip that they set on society. LEft WINGERs are FREE RIDERS on other peoples issues, the REAL left are a minority of educated, useless philosophy/child and youth studies students that couldnt make it in the real world and lash out at everything they see as powerful! THEY HATE AMERICA, white anglo saxons, war, wealth and any symbols of power because they are powerless!

Communism and leftism THRIVES on the rabble of society. The Communist and liberal ideology is a society imposed on the weakest of people by a minority of racist, upper class, useless and power hungry psychos that couldnt get a real job. Hence why only poor, uneducated, bullet ridden countries are attracted to communism, or should I say Communism/liberalism is attracted to them! Because in a prosperous/ individualistic society like america communism would never work. Liberalism and Communism come to countries like Vietnam, China, afghanistan and cuba PROMISING to cure them of imperialism, poverty, disease and war and what the minority of power brokers that represent this ideology do to them is the exact opposite, they enslave them. You cant even tie your shoes in ultra liberal/communist societies because of fear of losing control over their subjects. Look at Canada, you need a license for a gun, a car, babies, to pay taxes, to leave the country, to teach, to vote etc THAT ISNT FREEDOM that is liberal inventions to sap the individual strength of every man, woman and child. Liberals couldnt sleep at night knowing that there was an unregistered gun in their neighbourhood.

Thus, the psychology of leftists is identical to the mindest of communists. The working poor that wave the liberal flag dont know what liberalism/communism is! They arent educated, they dont have time after work to read about liberalism, much like priests in the middle ages that preached to the poor because the poor COULDNT READ THE BIBLE, modern left leaders preach liberalism to people that cant read. This ideology preys on the weak minded by promising them equality when they do the exact opposite, unknowingly; the leftists do it through destroying the nation they were brought up in. The psychology is rooted in the individuals representing this ideology, a group of gifted, middle class misfits that seek to legitimize themselves in the world (because personally they cant make it any other way) by fighting battles for people they percieve as inferior. Liberal/Communism is the greatest threat to mankind, they seek to make individuals line up for bread everyday, to coerce permission to study or leave the country. Without Conservatism their wouldnt be liberalism/communism, because liberals PREY on the individual successes in the world and contribute it as theft, immoral or imperialism, without conservative minded people liberals would be out of business(We know your tricks). Liberal/Communist leaders have a monopoly of power over the so called "proletariat" taking advantage of their trust, inability and stupidity. Isnt it obvious yet that EVERY liberal leaning country becomes more dictatorial!?!?!?! Look at the Communist Paradises of Cuba and China, the poor of these countries are in the same position they always have been! BUT WAIT! theres more, the leaders of these "equals" are the former imperialists themselves! Castro is of Spanish origins, Mao of Mandarin both the previous and present overlords in two different systems. One system being a colonial system led by spaniards in Cuba, the next A communist paradise led by spaniards in Cuba. Dont you get it! the leaders are the same theres no social mobility, no equality, the lower classes are CEMENTED into positions they dont want in these communist paradises. Communism is the end of the line for CLass struggle because any attempt at bettering yourself is met with a bullet in the head! Any attempt at strengthening yourself in these societies is percieved by liberals as a threat.

Lastly, Conservatives are a people that want to be left alone. Believe it or not, most of us are apathetic to industry, politics and religion as we see it as oppressing our personal freedoms as a human being. Conservatives want to do anything that they think is right and will pursue it with infinite energy and charisma. Conservatism is the unleashing of every persons full potential. Conservatives are live and let live, you get militant conservatives because they feel theyve been hijacked by liberals that seek to spy on everything in our lives, bore,tax, and bury us. AMERICA was built by conservative minded people that didnt ask for permission to build a farm or a road, they did what was neccessary for survival. But once the country was established it was the "I CANT'S"(leftists) that destroyed America.

This topic is not debatable because I believe in it so strongly I would die before revoking my beliefs in myself( IN MYSELF!) not my religion, my state, my ideology I AM MY OWN IDEOLOGY! this is the essence of conservatism. Have fun building schools for poor children overseas on your parents $$$, the people you preach to could never afford such a luxury.

"Most people who read "The Communist Manifesto" probably have no idea that it was written by a couple of young men who had never worked a day in their lives, and who nevertheless spoke boldly in the name of "the workers"."

- Thomas Sowell

"Communism teaches and seeks two objectives: unrelenting class warfare and the complete eradication of private ownership"
-Pope Pius

"Liberals tend to put the onus of your success on society and conservatives on you and your family."
charleslb

Pro

Well, firstly, you say that my critique of the conservative mind-set doesn't really apply to most conservatives, that the conservative label is broader than I appreciate and that conservatives can't really be easily pigeonholed as the Bible-wielding Neanderthals that liberals try to make them out to be. But I believe that I fairly explicitly laid out, in my thread about the nature of the conservative mind, how it is that a vestigial primate "alpha" mentality accounts for a wide range of conservative positions.

As for focusing on pro-war and anti-abortion politicians, well, they aren't just straw men for my analysis, they epitomize the core nature of the conservative mentality in a quite naked fashion.
You then go on to "educate" me about the fact that the typical conservative is not a fire-breathing meanie (ironically as I read your piece my eyes keep getting drawn to a picture of Ann Coulter to the side of it), I'll grant that many conservatives are relatively decent and benign in most contexts. Of course back during the Civil Rights era many of the conservative Southerners who showed their support for the Klan and became complicit in its cruel crimes by acquitting Klansmen of murdering freedom riders and bombing black churches were also, under ordinary circumstances, the salt of the Earth, the kind of good neighbors who'd put themselves out to help a neighbor in need, but there was still darkness in them that came out when the issue of civil rights came up. The same holds true for conservatives today, many conservatives are nice enough until it comes to their socio-political stances, and then their inner darkness and inner caveman rears its ugly head. I refer you to the concept of "the banality of evil".

You then give your own psychoanalysis of liberals. Which distills down to the not very original theory that "guilt" lies behind the liberal's politics. Well, first of all let me say that I don't really identify as a liberal, I prefer to describe myself as a leftist. There is a distinction with a real difference. A liberal isn't really a radical, all-in-all he believes in the system, he just feels that it needs to be reformed in certain ways. You could say the same about many conservatives who aren't off too far to the radical right. Most middle-of-the-road conservatives believe in the system, they just want to tweak it a bit according to their ideology. Liberals and conservatives really are both variations on the same pro-Establishment theme. Liberals subscribe to what you could call a soft version of the conventional worldview that justifies the Establishment, and conservatives take a harder line.

Leftists, on the other hand, reject, in a more fundamental and radical way, the whole Establishment, status quo, and its conventional worldview. I'm a leftist, not a liberal. But, loosely speaking, the term "liberal" can still be used to label some of my social views, so I'll stick up here for liberals as well as my fellow leftists. A sense of guilt very well may have something to do with determining the views of some liberals, I can't speak for them all because liberals really are diverse and can't all be pigeonholed as guilt-ridden. I can speak for myself and tell you that I haven't a shred of a sense of guilt about the unjust status quo of the global village. I don't identify with the perpetrators of injustice, I identify with its victims. As the adherents of liberation theology say, I make a "preferential option for the poor".

I think identifying with the underdog and the victims of socio-economic injustice is really where the stance and passion of many liberals and lefties comes from. Compassion, not guilt, is the key emotional factor in liberalism. This is simply difficult for conservatives to accept or fathom because they're somewhat challenged when it comes to compassion. This isn't meant as a catty jibe, just what I consider to be a statement of fact.

And lacking an understanding of compassion, and having much to feel guilty about since they support the unjust power structure of capitalism, conservatives naturally think everyone else must also be poisoned with guilt. Conservatives project their own sense of complicity in the world's injustices onto liberals and revile in others what they need to come to term with in themselves.

You then say that "Communism and leftism THRIVES on the rabble of society", what a lovely way to refer to the poor and working classes of society. This tells one exactly what a kindhearted place your own conservative views come from. This is what I meant above about the banality of cruelty, one-on-one you're probably an okay fellow, but as soon as you get started on your socio-political views your dark true colors, you inner conservative meanie comes out.

As for your criticisms of Soviet-style communists, I've never been a fan of or identified with that sham and shameful brand of socialism. And yes, there are those in the socialist camp who've exploited the philosophy of socialism to gain power and dominate their societies. But the same can be said for democracy. The Founding Fathers of the US were aristocrats who didn't want too much real democracy, who intentionally set up a system that keeps the economic elite in the catbird seat of real power. Don't take it from me, read some of the writings of the participants in the American Revolution and the Constitutional Convention, they weren't men of the people, they were men of the world who wanted a system that would ensure their continued privileged and powerful status. And that's what they created, but it was The Enlightenment and democracy was the zeitgeist so they piggybacked their class agenda on it. The question is, does this make democracy a bad idea? No, of course not. And neither does the way some have used socialism to "enslave" their people make socialism an inherently bad idea. Socialism remains an inherently ethical and compassionate program for a more fair and humane society, good and sincere people merely need to take it back, the way they need to take back democracy.

You then say that the psychology of all leftists is identical to that of the communists. You don't really make much of a detailed case for this assertion, and of course you can't since it isn't true. You want me to acknowledge the diversity of the conservative camp but you lump all lefties into the same contemptible category as the totalitarian regimes of China, Cambodia, the Soviet Union, etc. So there's a lot of variety among conservatives but liberals and leftists are the ones who are monolithic. Come on, you're just playing tit for tat here.

You then make a negative, classist generalization about the education and intelligence of the working poor and go on to lump them into the category of "the weak-minded" who are easy prey to left-wing demagogues. How nakedly superior of you. And your repeated use of terms such as "weak", "weakness", "weak-minded" confirms that you fit into my analysis of alpha male conservatives who value strength and look down on the poor as weak losers. Thanks for lending some inadvertent support to my thesis.

Then you say that conservatives are people who just want to be left alone, that would be a tad more believable if conservatives weren't always trying to make everyone else in society hew to their traditional values, if they weren't always out there in society's face demanding to have their way on questions such a gay marriage that really don't affect their quality of life in America. No, apparently conservatives just can't stand to let their values be flouted. We're back to the conservative's need for social dominance. So much about what conservatives say and do takes us back to their need for social dominance.

As some of your own words here go to show, conservatives are hardly the easygoing and earnest champions of family and freedom that they portray themselves to be, their mentality is not all sweetness and light.
Debate Round No. 1
boagart_303

Con

boagart_303 forfeited this round.
charleslb

Pro

Sorry to see that you haven't replied to my argument and have allowed our debate to end with a forfeit. But since I'm apparently allowed to post a round two argument anyway I'll just contribute a few more thoughts on the nature of the conservative weltanschauung and mind-set.

If the religious right's ole almighty Jehovah was a Trekkie and was remaking the world in the image of the Star Trek universe I think that he would most certainly cast the souls of conservatives as Klingons. At least he would if he was casting on the basis of people's politics and general attitudes, the attitudes of conservatives really do make them naturals for the role of Klingons.The hard-boiled kernel of conservatism is after all a Klingon-like mentality that values strength and dominance.

This does explain much about conservatism and its adherents. For example, it explains why so many macho types tend to hold conservative views and vote for right-wing Republicans. Well, have you ever wondered why it is that macho men (and women) are more likely to be conservatives than liberals? Could there perhaps be a causal correlation staring us in the face? Could it possibly be that conservative, rightist views come from a macho place in the human psyche, and that conservatism is largely just an ideological outgrowth from this primitively he-manly recess of our minds?

The dominance-oriented nature of the conservative mind-set also explains why the gamut of conservatism ranges from fascism on its lunatic fringe to the free-market fundamentalism of mainstream Republicans. The will to social dominance can express itself as the fascist's desire to establish his authoritarian domination over his society, to impose his agenda and ideology by force of law and government. Or, conversely, our inner caveman can aspire to social dominance through economic success, through being a successful capitalist.

Our inner caveman can use the club and the power of the state, like a good fascist. Or, he can view the laissez-faire capitalist system as the ideal playing field for him to seek the privileged and superior socio-economic status he craves. Well, the so-called "free market" in its most ideologically pure form would be a law-of-the-jungle sort of environment where a dominance-oriented specimen would feel right at home clawing out his own economic mastery over his fellow man. So, surprise surprise, many conservatives are staunch free-marketeers rather than full-out fascists.

The Klingon-like psychology behind conservative ideology also explains the conservative's position on issues such as capital punishment. Naturally the tendency of a macho mentality is going to be to respond to violent crime with swiftly violent and lethal punishment. Having mercy and compassion on the enemy in society's "war on crime" is merely showing weakness and practicing namby-pamby liberalism as far as the tough-minded adherents of conservatism are concerned. Their whole holier-than-thou Christian pro-life stance gets facilely shunted aside when it comes to the bullyboy way they wage war.

Which explains how it is that it's usually conservatives (or macho adolescent males) that can be heard pontificating about how we should fight our wars brutally all-out and bomb the enemy into the Stone Age. Conservatives tend to be "pro-defense" and hawks because that Stone-Age warmonger tucked away in the back of their brains isn't that keen on seeking more civilized resolutions for the world's conflicts and problems. All the pragmatic or philosophical rationales that conservatives give when they're taking us into war boil down to the brutish thinking of Broud (a Clan of the Cave Bear reference).

As for the militaristic patriotism of conservatives, it's merely the aggressively tribalistic, us-them outlook of our primitive ancestors hanging on in a modern form. That is, superpatriots usually tend to be conservatives because their in-your-face nationalism is just the will to group supremacy dressed up with the rubbishy rhetoric of keeping the world safe for democracy and defending the rule of law.

What about the conservative's "traditional values" and positions on moral issues? Here too we find the insensitivity of the macho mentality causing conservatives to gravitate toward unkind opinions and policies. Toward cruelly denying gays the right to codify their love by getting legally married. Toward repealing the right of women to control their own bodies when they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Toward forcing their fundamentalist religiosity on the rest of society by posting the Ten Commandments in public places, regardless of how this makes non-Christians feel hurtfully disincluded.

The conservative is unconsciously motivated to adopt his judgmental and domineering positions on social issues by the feeling of moral superiority those positions grant him, and by the sense of social power imposing them on society allows him to enjoy. Once again, it's the dominance-oriented mentality's desire for superiority and control that determines the "values", beliefs, and politics of conservatives.

The dominance-oriented mentality is also a fearful mentality, one that thinks in terms of threats and defending against them. People with a pronounced dominance-oriented mentality, such as dyed-in-the-wool conservatives, are always fearfully concerned about the threat of someone else trying to dominate them. The hostility of conservatives toward liberals is largely a manifestation of such fear.

Conservatives genuinely fear that they're in a "culture war" for their freedom to read their Bible and practice wholesome morals, and that "liberals" are the traitors within whom they imperatively need to defeat. Liberals, to the conservative mind, are the aggressors and are trying to force their ungodliness and immorality on the good down-home, conservative-thinking folk of society. This accounts for the vehemence and violence of so much conservative rhetoric, and for the defensive indignation with which conservatives keep inciting and fueling the culture war.

The upshot of this is that winning on issues such as abortion means much more to conservatives than saving the lives of fetuses, the abortion issue is a front on the culture war for the larger cultural and social domination of American civilization. If conservatives can abolish a woman's right to choose that goes a long way toward consolidating their victory and establishing their hegemony. Having their way on abortion is kind of like the conservative's equivalent of an alpha dog mounting and urinating on a lower ranking member of the pack to demonstrate his top status. This is why conservatives are so passionately invested in the abortion issue, the social dominance they covet is at stake. And the same holds true for same-sex marriage and a host of other supposedly moral issues.

Sure, some conservatives are mild and relatively inoffensive about expressing their dominance-oriented view of the world, and on a personal level, if you steer their conversation away from political and cultural topics, they can be pleasant company. However, their fundamental mental modus operandi is hardly progressive, compassionate, or even all that life-affirming. And the political and economic clout that conservatives continue to exercise in our society is a serious obstacle to our ability to create a more humane, kind, and just way of life.
Debate Round No. 2
boagart_303

Con

boagart_303 forfeited this round.
charleslb

Pro

Well, since Bogie hasn't given me anything more to reply to, and since some of y'all seem to think that I'm too verbose I'll try to keep this one really brief. I know that Bogie wanted to explore "liberal psychology" but I prefer to turn the tables and talk about conservatism. Essentially, I think that perhaps the best argument against conservatism is this, conservatives and capitalists already rule our nation and the world and look what a deplorable state of societal and global affairs we have on our hands today.

By their fruits ye shall know them, and the fruits of conservatism and capitalism are bitter and rotten. Yes indeedy, the best argument against conservative ideology and free-market fundamentalism is the horrendous mess it's made of politics and economics in the first decade of the 21st century.

If you want to know what's so wrong with the conservative mind-set just tour our land and the Third World and see what the conservative mind-set and the capitalist system it has so much doctrinaire faith in have wrought. The sad and shameful facts speak volumes for themselves. One child going hungry because of conservative policies that facilitate capitalist greed is worth a thousand words, and then some.
Debate Round No. 3
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Posted by Shtookah 6 years ago
Shtookah
Hate much con?
Posted by darkkermit 6 years ago
darkkermit
Obvious vote for charleslb considering the forfeits.
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bossyburrito
boagart_303charleslbTied
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Wallstreetatheist
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Vote Placed by Shtookah 6 years ago
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