The Instigator
Solarman1969
Pro (for)
Losing
48 Points
The Contender
Cricket
Con (against)
Winning
93 Points

Liberalism and the Democrat Teachers Unions are destroying public education in America

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/9/2007 Category: Education
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,543 times Debate No: 196
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (20)
Votes (43)

 

Solarman1969

Pro

this is so true as to not even be funny

the public schools continue to go downhill

this rests sqarely on the backs of the NEA and AFT and the liberals who want to teach socialism and moral degeneracy rather than

Math
Science
History
Reading and the English Language
Geography
Computers
language

and the other things that kids will need to succeed in the world

I will be happy to post statistics backing this claim

cheers
Cricket

Con

You might have some backing in your case, but need i remind you of the horrible group included in the liberal's opposing party--that is the conservative's fundamentalist. I'm from PA, and we unfortunately house a fringe school which is trying to teach creationism. Now while the liberal teacher may be teaching socialism, our conservative friends are teaching completely wrong information! i would rather my kind be void of knowledge in a field than filled with false information. Creationism is historically wrong and just plane degrading to science. I would also like to note our conservative government's act to ban stem cell research. So the liberal may be sopping america's children from learning a few facts they will probably forget anyway, but the conservative is stopping our actually productive scientists from leading the world in scientific discoveries. I would take a Liberal, socialist promulgator over a conservative, creationist, holy-roller any day.
Debate Round No. 1
Solarman1969

Pro

Well, I see youre STILL IN high school, and in Pennsylvania no less (I graduated from Lower Merion HS in Armore, Pa in 1987 and just had my 20yr)

So I am quite interested in your point of view

I took honors AP Chemistry, Physics, Biology, got 1600 on my SATs (and over 1400 for alot of my degenerate friends with fake IDs) , and took 2 years of calculus in high school.

this prepared me well for Chemical Engineering at UC Berkeley (great school)

I want you and all other HS kids to have those kind of opportunites by the time you are 16-17 so you can have a head start in College.

Now to your arguments

(1) Creationism- you see it as wrong and a conservtive fundementalist (scary?) issue.

I'm from PA, and we unfortunately house a fringe school which is trying to teach creationism. Now while the liberal teacher may be teaching socialism, our conservative friends are teaching completely wrong information! i would rather my kind be void of knowledge in a field than filled with false information. Creationism is historically wrong and just plane degrading to science.

Now, you can see one of the other debates I started (Is there a Creator God?) I, being a Tibetan Buddhist, am on the CON-side there.

I do not beleive in a "Creator" God, the God of the Bible for example, in general.

The PROOF of such that the Tibetans have, based on Karma, and rebirth are very lengthy and detailed, but compelling to me-

Nonetheless, Christians are NOT scary, even the really biblical ones who think God created the world in 7 days 6000 years ago. BIG DEAL!

they are not going to hurt you , compel you you to do anything, force you to not have an abortion, etc etc. that many people will tell you they will.

Christians, no matter how fundementalist and wacky, are NICE. and good family people and caring about the poor in general as well.

And more importantly, A Christian school would likely be a much more disciplined place and have better academics and the public school (I dont know)

On the other hand, Islam is scary, and we have and ongoing war between Islam and the West for many years to come, like it or not.

My point here is that they teach creation - who cares? how about how they teach english, math, science, geography etc and prepare you for college

I argued with teachers for years over any number of subjects- thats your right as a student.- you doont have to buy ANYONES opinion on ANYTHING

NOW YOUR OTHER POINT

I would also like to note our conservative government's act to ban stem cell research.

This is total nonsense. There is federal funding of stem cell research, and Bush supported it.

the nuance here that liberals have lied to you about repeatedly is Embryonic Stem cells, which come from dead babies who have been aborted. This is part of the baby body parts industry (about 2-3 billion per year) a result of abortions.

Bush, and all us conservatives, a pro-life and do not supporet the killing of the unborn and the use of their bodies for science. This is a very defensible moral position.

FINAL ARGUMENT BY YOU

So the liberal may be sopping america's children from learning a few facts they will probably forget anyway, but the conservative is stopping our actually productive scientists from leading the world in scientific discoveries. I would take a Liberal, socialist promulgator over a conservative, creationist, holy-roller any day.

Dont you have multiple teachers in your school?

Isnt their mastery of their subject, and their unbiased presentation of the subject matter, the most important things to look for in a good teacher or professor?

Also, there is alot in the STYLE a teacher has in keeping students interested.

I just know that when I had students as a TA and RA in grad school- they HATED ME because I was damn hard and then THANKED ME later.

It usually works out that way.
Cricket

Con

(skip to bottom if you just want to read my argument.)

Yes...two sides are good in politics and such things that do not have solid answers...but see...WE CAN PROVE SCIENCE! And, uh...creationism is totally wrong. It would be similar to your teacher teaching you about things like...uh the earth being flat? Now in your biology class do you want a semester devoted to proofs of the world being flat? I think that America's tax dollars should be paying for our kids to learn REAL science.
And no liberal lied to me, i watched the debate. (As painful as it was to see that our goverment is full of people less intellegent than a highschool student.)
Do you know how hard it is to get a stem cell from a non-embryo? its like pickign needles from hay-stack. Using embryos makes much, much more sense. But that is a totally different debate.
Now i didnt reallly understand your argument...you where telling me that christians are nice people and muslims are scary? Well that sounds a little prejudice to me so i am going to pretend it was never said..
Anyway, i dont want to banter, so i will make my argument very simple:

>You propose that Liberals are bad teachers ebcause they go on protests and teach our students about socialism.
>Pointing out flaws without offering a solution just yields chaos.
>Since you specified Liberal tachers and not, "undevoted teachers," I must asume that you propose we replace them with conservatives.
>I believe their are good and bad teachers from all political parties.
>As proof, I offer creationists who teach our kids faulty literature in lieu of proven science. (This is not an opinion, evolution is correct and creationism IS wrong.)
>I thus concude that liberals are doing usno harm. Bad, undevoted teachers are doing us harm. Bad, undevoted teachers are both liberals and conservative.
>So if there are bad liberal teachers and bad conservative teachers, then there is nothing wrong with highering liberal teachers, and liberal teachers are doing our kids no harm. You are stereotyping, similar to waht you did with Christians and Muslims.
Debate Round No. 2
Solarman1969

Pro

Hello Cricket

Your points are well taken, and good teachers can be of any persuasion

My main point is more general- the UNIONS and the BUREACRACY are the main problem, and they keep dumbing down standards

And the AFT, NEA and the rest are like 100% democrats.

Their constant attempts at social engineering (for example here in Ca they just passed a bill that will allow boys in girls bathrooms if they "feel" like a girl

If you look at the testing, the rigourousness continues to decline, and the test scores go down ,and then they dumb down the tests.

Look at the graduation test now for HS - it is like a 6th grade test when I was in school! A total and complete JOKE!

and still like 50% of kids cant pass!

It is a total complete disaster and continues to get worse

There is no discipline either, becuase liberalism is running amuk

things are probably much better there in PA that here in CA, but I think that by ANY measureable standards - SATs GREs AP tests and the like, the level of knowledge of kids is declining and rapidly
There needs to be a revolution and much tougher standards

And PARENTS need to be more involved as well.

And one final point, liberals in general propagandize against this great nation and distort history , leaving kids with the impression that we are the bad guys and socialism communism and the like have redeeming value

cheers
Cricket

Con

Ok, that's a very reasonable argument. But i have yet to understand what it is exactly that you think "the liberals" are doing wrong. I personally think that we should invest more money into the education system so that school can have higher standards and afford better teachers. Its a solution void of political parties.
Now, i personally think that social standards are bull so let me spend a paragraph ranting about your gender issue.
(skip if you like)
I will side-track for a second on this subject. Biology litters us with exceptions. When we look at the world genetically we realize that all of our human constructions and borders are hogwash. Some females, complete with a vagina and breasts, have a male karyotype. They are essentially males since they have testes and according to genetic tests show up male, but they look like woman. And why don't we have all genders go to the bathroom together? Because they might molest one another? Well what of gays? We have built a society on the average, but today we are realizing that the fringes of the bell curve exist as well! And they always will! This horrible fact will also hold true with education...this is why no child left behind is bogus as well! The bell curve will always exist!

Unfortunately, i feel that you are resting your ideas on opinions with no solid grounding in logic. Or, we can prove creationism wrong and evolution correct, we cant prove patriotism correct. Our country's valor IS up for opinion. A good teacher would neither promulgate american virtue nor degrade our contributions. If you ask me, patriotism is fairy unamerican. America was built on free-thinks and grew with the rugged individual.

Now, to wrap up all of my scattered thoughts into one cohesive point:
You blame our education system's faults on unions and political parties...all things which we created for good. You see genders as set in stone. You see liberals as bad for our country and conservatives as good. You see patriotism as American and self-criticism as unamerican. Essentially you are scapegoating. Why is our school system failing? Because it is corrupt. Why is it corrupt? Because we are naturally corrupt.

Now, please, instead of exchanging meaningless words, tell me, how is the conservative movement as a whole enriching our children's lives? What uccess is it promotion? I see that the liberal party has its faults, but you have yet to tell me why the conservatives are so good. If they arn't, then you are attacking the wrong party still.
Debate Round No. 3
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Atheist31784 9 years ago
Atheist31784
Embryonic stem cells do not come from dead baby parts. They are from embryos that are just going to be thrown away. Stop with the anti-choice propaganda
Posted by TeaandScarves 9 years ago
TeaandScarves
First of all, I wish, like several otehrs, that both of you had posted facts as opposed to posting numbers such as "like 100%". I agree with lindsay that this kind of language and debating does not support a 1600 on the SAT and a UC Berkly. Secondly, I wish that both of you had debated the original question more instead of making this a debate of religion and of the Government's involvement in this issue. If you wanted to debate Christianity in schools, than make that a topic. If you wanted to debate the government's power in education, make that a topic. For this fault, I blame the initiator for making this topic a broad statement that really potrays more of a fallacy of view than an actual debate. For all of these reasons, I give this debate to Cricket for finally bringing this down to the actual point and avoiding using debates that had no relevance to the actual issue.
Posted by adamh 9 years ago
adamh
Cricket...
well "we have proven this very wrong" would be your opinion, and for someone who seems to have a major problem with having beliefs impressed upon them, one would expect you respect that.
Why should those who don't believe in evolution have it shoved down there throats? Does this not impede on their rights as much as teaching Christianity to an Atheist?

Evolution has not proven Creationism wrong, it is a theory that attempts to disprove certain forms of Creationism.
Posted by Cricket 9 years ago
Cricket
adamh...i consider that fringe...
creationism should never get a mention in a science setting other than, "we have proven this very wrong."
Posted by thisearthlyride 9 years ago
thisearthlyride
Apologies- cricket DID (briefly) mention NCLB.
Posted by thisearthlyride 9 years ago
thisearthlyride
Interesting that neither of you mentioned No Child Left Behind. Ask just about any public school teacher and they will tell you that NCLB is a disaster. Kids aren't doing well in school? Cut their funding- that will help! Yes, conservatives truly do value public school educations.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Since Cricket could not have done a worse job asking you to prove your accusations Solarman, I'm going to.

1) Prove to me that the NEA and the AFT are this big socialist conspiracy that you speak of. Use unbiased non-right wing sources.

I will simply point to the abhorrent state of public schools, as well as the fact that the Unions are compulsory and 100% democrat

Furthermore, they deny school choice and vouchers and force kids into their failing schools

2) Where do you get this nonsense about forcing someone to have an abortion? I certainly hope you're not using some extreme example to broad brush an entire group of people

I was just trying to convince this high school kid that Christians are not so scary, and he shouldnt buy into the scare tactics he was being fed

3) Christians are generally good people and so are Muslims. Both sides have their dangerous extremes. You're already aware of those on the Muslim side. For the Christian side, perhaps you are not familiar with the Ku Klux Klan and the Westboro Baptist Church.

Comparing Christianity and Islam is nonsense- and is a typical dumb liberal tactic to blunt legitimate criticism of Islam

10179 terrorist attacks have occurred by muslims since 9/11 http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

the Ku Klux Klan is NOT Christian, does not really exist anymore, and does not kill anyone

And the nuts at WBC, ditto- not terrorist attacks

I will give you and education

read and learn and then get back to me about how Christiantity and Islam are the same :

http://www.prophetofdoom.net...

4) Again where do you get this nonsense about liberals propagandizing against America in their teaching of history to promote socialism?

Most of the propaganda is the in the colleges, where the commies took over and infiltrated in the 60s

read Horowitz's book "the 100 most dangerous professors"

http://www.cangelawykoff.com...
Posted by Julius_Kael 9 years ago
Julius_Kael
Since Cricket could not have done a worse job asking you to prove your accusations Solarman, I'm going to.

1) Prove to me that the NEA and the AFT are this big socialist conspiracy that you speak of. Use unbiased non-right wing sources.

2) Where do you get this nonsense about forcing someone to have an abortion? I certainly hope you're not using some extreme example to broad brush an entire group of people

3) Christians are generally good people and so are Muslims. Both sides have their dangerous extremes. You're already aware of those on the Muslim side. For the Christian side, perhaps you are not familiar with the Ku Klux Klan and the Westboro Baptist Church.

4) Again where do you get this nonsense about liberals propagandizing against America in their teaching of history to promote socialism? My high school US History teacher had a PhD and was as good as any professor I've had in college. I got a 5 on the AP exam with very little review before the exam because his class was so well taught.

Like every good history teacher he taught the good and the bad. Just because we teach that America has done some terrible things in the past such as the slaughter Native Americans and haul the Japanese into internment camps, doesn't mean that the conclusion is that we should hate America and love Communism.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Lightweight Lindsay

You can try and question me all you like- I could care less

I do have advanced degrees in Mechanical and Chemical Engineering from UC Berkely 1992 (BS) and UH Manoa 1996 (MS)

Before you throw stones ,

where you can claim any education, any name, any identity you like....too bad you don't match up with who you say you are.

why dont you google my masters thesis and then shut up ?

Hydrogen Production from Biomass in Supercritical Water Flow Reactors : The Role of Carbon as a Catalyst in the Water Gas Shift Reaction 1998 ; 273 p

I could really give a hoot what you think or believe and will be happy to debate you, typical stone throwing liberal, on any subject any time any where.

Your tact is totally typical of liberals- no points to make, cant debate- just try and demean, degrade and question the ideological opponent.

thats all the democrat party has these days- pathetic

I have been defeating the likes of ten of you at a time at super lefty places like Berkeley for years and enjoy it immensely.
Posted by adamh 9 years ago
adamh
Cricket, in your opening argument (and in some other debates you're in) I saw you mention those awful conservatives that are trying to teach creationism in a "fringe school" in PA. Well, if it's the Dover School district you're referring to, than you're completely exaggerating the facts. I live in York county and Dover is the school district North of mine. First of all, calling them fringe is a bit to far, they weren't preaching from a bible and they weren't specifically naming religion. Creationism can refer to any theistic religion, and they weren't even forcing creationism on anyone. They merely said at the end of the Evolution lesson that "there are skeptics who don't believe in evolution but in Creationism, and if you'd like to learn about that there are plenty of resources available in the library and on the internet." I know this for a fact because I have several friends who went there and had the course just before the school got taken to court and this is what the teacher's said.

To call Creationism a degradation to science is offensive and not the American way (remember freedom of religion? freedom of speech does not give you the right to deliver hate speech).
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