The Instigator
HandsOff
Pro (for)
Winning
52 Points
The Contender
kelstwa
Con (against)
Losing
12 Points

Liberals are generally more pessimistic about success than conservatives or libertarians.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/19/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,236 times Debate No: 3290
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (16)
Votes (20)

 

HandsOff

Pro

In this debate I am claiming that liberals generally have a very dim view of people's ability to succeed in life. They are constantly pointing to how the U.S. (which most consider the land of opportunity) is not accommodating to those who work hard to get ahead. Liberals are so certain that people aren't getting a fair shake that they feel it necessary to support all sorts of government policies that aim to "even the playing field." Sure, liberals will say that success is sometimes possible without help from government, but only for the privileged few who are fortunate enough to be handed the necessary resources. Whether they are right or wrong, there is no doubt that liberals are far more pessimistic than conservatives or libertarians when it comes to success.
kelstwa

Con

First off, thank you SOOO much for starting this debate.

It seems that you are categorizing all liberals into having the exact same beliefs. The fact is, THEY DON'T. But, to address the democrats you are talking about, one has to look at the intentions of what those liberals are saying. You

You are looking at the situation as a middle class citizen that probably has had no real struggles in life, and if you have, they didn't last long.

1)"Sure, liberals will say that success is sometimes possible without help from government, but only for the privileged few who are fortunate enough to be handed the necessary resources."
-Success does not come without help. This is in all circumstances. You cannot climb to the top without others to climb on top of. Everyone needs to be ‘handed the necessary resources'. And everyone is, just in different ways. Every wealthy businessman had the means of reaching the top, and grabbed it. Liberals want that for everyone, and they only want to stand as the mediator, and give the lower class those same opportunities. Or, at least, the resources necessary to reach those opportunities.

2)"…there is no doubt that liberals are far more pessimistic than conservatives or libertarians when it comes to success."
-If liberals were so pessimistic about people reaching success, then certainly, they would not waste their time making an effort to change that. They would see it as a situation where no matter what they do, that person does not have the capability to succeed. But, liberals are indeed, OPTIMISTIC, and believe that the people that do not have a multi-millionaire father and a secure lifestyle to begin with can still aspire to be better than they started off with. They just need a little push.

If you have ever seen the movie ‘The Pursuit of Happyness', you can see that many of businessmen that Will Smith encounters are very doubtful, and I can bet that many of those characters are very liberal. Yet, Will Smith's character was still given a chance.

If you propose that all liberals are pessimistic, then you are also proposing that all conservatives are optimistic. I STRONGLY disagree with idea that either Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, or even my conservative mother are optimistic about people's abilities, but instead, want the upper class to strive and consistently ignore the lower class's needs.
Debate Round No. 1
HandsOff

Pro

Welcome to the site.

"It seems that you are categorizing all liberals into having the exact same beliefs."

No. That is why I used the term "generally" in my debate topic. It is difficult to win a debate when one tries to pigeonhole and entire group of people. I realize there are exceptions.

"Success does not come without help.... Everyone needs to be handed the necessary resources"

I understand what you mean by this, so I won't twist your words. But I need to make it clear that you are playing with semantics here. I guess you could argue that even those who work hard to acquire the resources to succeed are eventually HANDED those resources-- like a winning athlete being handed his well-deserved trophy. But let's not confuse that with the multitude of unearned resources liberals want to hand out to those they believe are helpless without government.

"If liberals were so pessimistic about people reaching success, then certainly, they would not waste their time making an effort to change that. They would see it as a situation where no matter what they do, that person does not have the capability to succeed."

As I mentioned in my opening argument, liberals demonstrate their pessimism in people's ability to succeed (without government intervention) by supporting such intervention. Just the opposite of your statement is true: If liberals were OPTOMISTIC about people reaching success, then they would not waste their time making efforts to intervene.

"liberals are indeed, OPTIMISTIC, and believe that the people that do not have a multi-millionaire father and a secure lifestyle to begin with can still aspire to be better than they started off with. They just need a little push."

Again, you are confirming my argument that liberals believe people are not self-equipped to succeed. As you confirm with your statement, liberals think people "need a little push."

"If you have ever seen the movie ‘The Pursuit of Happyness', you can see that many of businessmen that Will Smith encounters are very doubtful, and I can bet that many of those characters are very liberal. Yet, Will Smith's character was still given a chance."

Great movie. If you paid close attention you'd notice that Will Smith's character worked his butt off to EARN any chance he was given. But in reality he was not GIVEN anything. It was he who GAVE the executives an chance to hire him. They did so because they rightly suspected he was the best candidate for the job. He went on to make the company millions of dollars. It was "evil" profit the executives were seeking when they hired Will Smith's character. Although most liberals believe the opposite, the profit motive does create good things like opportunity-- but usually only for those hard-working who truly deserve it.

"If you propose that all liberals are pessimistic, then you are also proposing that all conservatives are optimistic."

Your comment is irrelevant, because it is not my position that ALL liberals are pessimistic. I believe MOST liberals demonstrate that they are pessimistic. I also believe that MOST conservatives and libertarians demonstrate that they optimistic about anyone's ability to succeed in the U.S., regardless of the circumstances into which he was born.
kelstwa

Con

kelstwa forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
HandsOff

Pro

I think I can let my arguments rest at this point. Go ahead and close it out if you got something else to add.
kelstwa

Con

Sorry...
i was quite busy these past days.

This is kind of a pointless argument, so I might as well let it drop.
Debate Round No. 3
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by sippinsizzurp 9 years ago
sippinsizzurp
Socrates Versus Kelsey. Yes, I called this one with ease. In regards to Obama, my blackness requires me to support him.
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
Perhaps a suggestion for the next version of the site is in order?
Posted by HandsOff 9 years ago
HandsOff
Could of researched it if arguments from previous debates were time and date stamped.
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
That's probably true. Mea culpa lol... I happened to wake up early today and go ahead and finish, as I brainstormed, among other things, until pretty late last night. Hmmm... now you've got me wondering about all demographics and their relationship to final post time.
Posted by HandsOff 9 years ago
HandsOff
I'd be curious to see if whatever day or time a debate ends has an impact on the number of readers/voters. Since only 4 or 5 debate titles are posted on the 1st page, I bet it's better to finish in the late afternoon or on a weekend.
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
Interesting. Another curiosity: why do you think there have been so few votes on our debate? It's been up all day - I don't know. Regardless of who won/will win (as the voting period never stops...), I've never had so few votes (overall) in a debate. Wondering your opinion.

Britt
Posted by HandsOff 9 years ago
HandsOff
Yeah, he'll come around. Although he has made some noise about Hillary being better for conservatives' chances of pickin up some house and senate seats. That might be a better overall outcome than having McCain signing off jsut about everything the libs and the war mongers want.
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
lol. Out of curiosity, HandsOff, who do you think Rush will vote for? He's publicly disavowed McCain... do you think he'll "come home" in November?
Posted by HandsOff 9 years ago
HandsOff
By the way, why the support for Obama if you're a libertarian as your profile states? That would be like Rush Limbaugh voting for Barbara Streisand.
Posted by HandsOff 9 years ago
HandsOff
I'd like to hear more. What is your thinking in making these predictions? Were you able to call this one correctly?
20 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by HandsOff 8 years ago
HandsOff
HandsOffkelstwaTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Jamcke 8 years ago
Jamcke
HandsOffkelstwaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by liber-t 8 years ago
liber-t
HandsOffkelstwaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Handout 9 years ago
Handout
HandsOffkelstwaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by eweb53 9 years ago
eweb53
HandsOffkelstwaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by sippinsizzurp 9 years ago
sippinsizzurp
HandsOffkelstwaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by sadolite 9 years ago
sadolite
HandsOffkelstwaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Shorack 9 years ago
Shorack
HandsOffkelstwaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Araku 9 years ago
Araku
HandsOffkelstwaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by PhillyEgls20 9 years ago
PhillyEgls20
HandsOffkelstwaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30