The Instigator
policydebategod
Pro (for)
Winning
22 Points
The Contender
Chiblade
Con (against)
Losing
9 Points

Libertarians are the BEST PARTY EVER!!!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/21/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,067 times Debate No: 767
Debate Rounds (3)
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policydebategod

Pro

CRIME
Step 1. Protect Victims' Rights
In addition, Libertarians would do more than just punish criminals. We would also make them pay restitution to their victims for the damage they've caused, including property loss, medical costs, pain, and suffering. If you are the victim of a crime, the criminal should fully compensate you for your loss.
Step 2. End Prohibition
Just as alcohol prohibition gave us Al Capone and the mafia, drug prohibition has given us the Crips, the Bloods and drive-by shootings. Consider the historical evidence: America's murder rate rose nearly 70% during alcohol prohibition, but returned to its previous levels after prohibition ended. Now, since the War on Drugs began, America's murder rates have doubled. What's more, drug prohibition also inflates the cost of drugs, leading users to steal to support their high priced habits. It is estimated that drug addicts commit 25% of all auto thefts, 40% of robberies and assaults, and 50% of burglaries and larcenies. Prohibition puts your property at risk. Finally, nearly one half of all police resources are devoted to stopping drug trafficking, instead of preventing violent crime. The bottom line? By ending drug prohibition Libertarians would double the resources available for crime prevention, and significantly reduce the number of violent criminals at work in your neighborhood.
Step 3. Get Tough on Real Crime
We believe that anyone who harms another person should be held responsible for that action. By contrast, the Democrats and Republicans have created a system where criminals can get away with almost anything. For instance: sentences seldom mean what they say. Fewer than one out of every four violent felons serves more than four years. Libertarians would dramatically reduce the number of these early releases by eliminating their root cause - prison over-crowding. Since nearly six out of every ten federal prison inmates are there for non-violent drug-related offenses, it's clear that drug prohibition is the primary source of this over-crowding. It has been estimated that every drug offender imprisoned results in the release of one violent criminal, who then commits an average of 40 robberies, 7 assaults, 110 burglaries and 25 auto thefts. Early release of violent criminals puts you and your family at risk. It must stop.
Step 4. Protect the Right to Self-Defense
We believe that the private ownership of firearms is part of the solution to America's crime epidemic, not part of the problem. Evidence: law-abiding citizens in Florida have been able to carry concealed weapons since 1987. During that time, the murder rate in Florida has declined 21% while the national murder rate has increased 12%.
Step 5. Address the Root Causes of Crime
Any society that lets kids grow up dependent on government welfare, attending government schools that fail to teach, and entering an economy where government policy has crushed opportunity, will be a society that breeds criminals. The Libertarian Party would increase employment opportunities by slashing taxes and government red tape. We would also end the welfare system with its culture of dependence and hopelessness. Most important of all, we would promote low-cost private alternatives to the failed government school system.
FREE SPEECH
Libertarians oppose any abridgment of the freedom of speech through government censorship, regulation or control of communications media, including, but not limited to, laws concerning:
Obscenity, ... and getting rid of that d*mned FCC
HEALTH CARE
Establish Medical Saving Accounts.
Under this program, you could deposit tax-free money into a Medical Savings Account (MSA). Whenever you need the money to pay medical bills, you will be able to withdraw it. For individuals without an MSA, the Libertarian Party will work to make all healthcare expenditures 100 percent tax deductible.
2. Deregulate the healthcare industry.
We should repeal all government policies that increase health costs and decrease the availability of medical services.
1. End Welfare
We should eliminate the entire social welfare system. This includes eliminating AFDC, food stamps, subsidized housing, and all the rest.
3. Tear down barriers to entrepreneurism and economic growth
Someone starting a business today needs a battery of lawyers just to comply with the myriad of government regulations from a virtual alphabet soup of government agencies: OSHA, EPA, FTC, CPSC, etc.
. Reform education
There can be no serious attempt to solve the problem of poverty in America without addressing our failed government-run school system. America's schools are becoming increasingly segregated, not on the basis of race, but on income. Only a free market in education will provide the improvement in education necessary to enable millions of Americans to escape poverty.
Just Defend Our Rights
Libertarians believe that if government's role were limited to protecting our lives, rights and property, then America would prosper and thrive as never before.
How Can We Cut Taxes?
Instead of tending to the basics, government has grown into a bloated conglomerate of political services that gets larger every year -- with no end in sight.
Privatize And Cut Taxes
All over the world, governments are busy selling airlines, power plants, housing, and factories to private owners. Where inefficient government bureaucrats lost money and squandered tax dollars, hard-working private owners now make profits and create new jobs. Why can't we do the same thing in America?
Defend America: Cut Taxes
Military expenses are over $250 billion a year! A large percentage of this is spent overseas to defend wealthy countries like Germany and Japan -- who then wallop us in international trade. Let's take them off military welfare. We can defend America better and save at least $100 billion a year in taxes.
Stop Bailing Out Industry
No one has the right to cover his losses at taxpayer expense -- and yet wealthy corporations demand exactly that. The federal government has bailed out railroads, banks, and other corporations with your tax dollars. This must stop!
Replace Welfare: Cut Taxes
The bulk of your welfare tax dollars goes to pay the handsome salaries of well-educated welfare workers. The poor get little from government welfare except meager handouts and a cycle of despair. Let's get government out of the charity business. Private charities and groups do a better and more efficient job of helping the truly needy get back on their feet.
Why An Income Tax?
Before 1913, federal income taxes were rare and short-lived. America became the most prosperous nation on earth. The U.S. Government did not try to police the world or play "nanny" to everyone from cradle to grave. People took responsibility for themselves, their families, and their communities. That is how the founders of America thought it should be. And it worked. It can again!
It's Time For Action
Republican and Democratic politicians have refused to reduce the size or cost of government.
Libertarians are also pro gay rights and abortion.
Chiblade

Con

Libertarians are like some doctors. They can see what is wrong. But they can't treat it without serious complications. Possibly terminal ones. thats the idea I get when I look at your plan. Your problems hold true. But your solutions only create new problems, sometimes without solving the old ones.

What I'm gonna do now is go through your plan and take a look at all the problems with it. then I'm going to address the main point of your argument: that the Libertarian Party is the best ever.

First: victims rights.
Sure its a good idea. Restitution. Its even biblical. But in the real world how would your plan work. Say you capture a criminal who, after robbing a convenience store, murders the 5 people in the store at the time, and injures 2 more while escaping. you know have 2 problems. 1: how are you going to make them pay for the pain, suffering and injuries of the live victims and the dead victims families? How will you come up with that #? Will he use the money he stole? 'cause he also has to pay back the store.
2: If he can't pay, will the government? How does that tally with the no welfare, small government part of you plan?

Next: Prohibition.
You state that you will only deal with real crime. Crime that hurts people. But
its going to be very hard to argue that drugs don't hurt the person that uses them. And that thus by taking drugs the addict is not hurting somebody, that body being their own body. And the fact that criminals that commit crimes other than drug possession use drugs does not mean that if you get rid of the criminality of the drugs you will get rid of the criminal behavior.
The prohibition didn't create the mobster, it just made him rich. A very small portion of the population commits a large portion of the crimes. And they are not committing the crimes because of the drug culture, the drug culture exists because of the crimes. You would simply be eliminating one of the more useful charges the police can bring a career criminal in on. As well as allowing self destructive behaviors that harms individuals and by leaving them in society, harms society.

Crime.
I'd like to ask where you et your drug related criminal statistic. How old is it? And why would drug offense imprisonments result in violent offenders being released. This may sound good at the outset, but it is a ridiculous proposition when looked at closely. It should not be considered until we have credible proof of it.

Self Defense.
I must say, there is only one thing wrong with this one. and that is details. How do you propose to go about allowing everyone to carry firearms? Will there be enforcement of any regulation at all. Or will it be dodge city style, "good guys better shoot better than bad guys cause all of them will have guns"?

Root causes of crime?
This is one of the vaguest arguments I've ever seen. All i et from this is that you'll kill welfare, a source of income to millions of underprivileged people.... I'll get to that later.

Free speech.
This is possibly the most doable of your plans. I have no problem with it.

Health care.
This is probably the least doable of your plans, as well as being the most problematic. The MSA part of your plan is admirable. Let people use their own money to pay for their own health care.
1. Then you eliminate welfare, or in this case Medicaid & Medicare. And you eliminate the only way many people have of payin for medical care. They don't have money to put into an MSA. They don't have the insurance or the benefits to get the care they need. And you abruptly pull the carpet out from under them. Without assistance, they go without preventative medical care. they will get sick. they will turn to the ER. Many are already doing this, its the reason you have to wait hours to a broken leg even checked. And the problem will only get worse, incredibly fast, if you put your plan into effect.
2 & 3. Then you deregulate the health care industry. The stops that guarantee good care for those who can pay just disappear. Now not only are the poor barred by their circumstances from getting any health care, the well off must pay more to get good care because all health care is no loner held to a high standard by the law.

Reform Education?
This beats the root causes of crime for vagueness. You see a problem. But are you unable to state a solution? To even see a solution?

Defend Our Rights
This is simply a statement of the fact that the Libertarian Party thinks the government should be smaller. Most Americans think this. It is not unique to the Libertarian Party, nor is it a real argument. Because it is a statement of position in what is becoming a policy debate, I will not address it until later.

How To Cut Taxes?
A restatement of the former argument in financial instead of vaguely constitutional terms. My comments above apply.

Privatize and Cut Taxes?
Where does the government own airlines, power plants, and factories to sell to private investors? The answer is nowhere. Even factories building military vehicles and equipment are private. We have a free market, capitalist economy. We have never had any other type of economy. the countries mentioned by yourself are coming out of government controlled economies, so this argument applies to them. but not to the US. Its pointless and moot. I will not mention it again unless you can come up with proof the problem exists substantially in the US.

Defend America.
This is not only poorly titled (its not cutting taxes, its cutting foreign aid), but its also poorly thought out. How do you plan on doing this? Withdrawal from NATO? Withdrawal from the UN? Do you plan on pissing off the international community by cutting off welfare to third world countries that are struggling? How will you deal with the flak after a camp in Dafur that was receiving primarily US aid is hit by an epidemic because of lack of medicine? This is either reducing the resources available to those that need them to survive or reducing the defensibility of the US by reducing its treaty obligated allies. Neither helps defend the US.

Bailing Out Industry.
We need evidence before this can be argued. Until then, its a moot statement of not real credibility.

Replace Welfare.
With what? will you require that private causes provide welfare? If so, How? If not, how will you make sure that the poor are receiving what they need, and that they aren't being taken advantage of by the private causes?

Income Tax.
This argument says absolutely nothing except that you haven't done enough homework to see the necessity for the amount of money brought in by the income tax. Its a throwaway loose argument. It flaps in the breeze and distracts. I won't address it.

Now. I've one through your plan. I've addressed it. I'll address the main topic o this debate.

The libertarian party is not the best party ever, not only because a party is only as strong as the people in it (not a large number in the case on the Libertarian Party). But because, as I said at the beginning this debate: THEY HAVE NO ANSWERS. They have a PROBLEM. They have a goal. But they are essentially Utopians. They grasp for perfect world, a world whose solutions fail to solve the problems of the REAL world, a world that can never be. (Barring armed revolution, a massive break down of the economy and subsequent restructuring of the government, or a secession) Libertarian goals, at least as outlined in my opponents plan, can never be achieved without catastrophic consequences. Consequences, it would not be unrealistic to state, that might end in armed revolution, economic disaster, or some attempt at succession.
while the benefits may look good. The risks of adopting a LIBERTARIAN plan this drastic are to many, and to hue, for it to even be on the table of a realistic policy maker. For these reasons, and reasons to be outlined in more depth in later posts, the libertarian party is far from the greatest party ever.
Debate Round No. 1
policydebategod

Pro

PLEASE NOTICE THAT HIS PROFILE CLAIMS THAT HE IS A LIBERTARIAN

First: victims rights.
It will be just like a civil case. The criminal will pay for the damages and the government will have nothing to do with the payment except enforcing it. The court will decide the amount based on factors not mentioned by you. It is essentially just like a civil case.

Next: Prohibition.
Drugs only hurt the person taking them and Libertarians believe in freedom and personal choice. The criminal behavior will not be gone but significantly reduced. Despite increasing amounts of money being spent on prohibition, drugs have become more accessible, cheaper, and more potent.[2] The illegality of injectable drugs leads to a scarcity of needles which causes an increase in HIV infections. The prisons are overcrowded because of drug dealers, drug possessors, drug traffikers, drug users, drug purchasers, gang violence supporters, gang territory defenders, robbers, murderers, etc. Prohibition causes violent gangs. It is historically proven.

Crime.
The prisons are overcrowded because of drug dealers, drug possessors, drug traffikers, drug users, drug purchasers, gang violence supporters, gang territory defenders, robbers, murderers, etc. Prohibition causes violent gangs. It is historically proven. Those people being released will get the prisons not overcrowded and therefore parole will not be necessary and crime will be taken more seriously. It is only logical.

Self Defense.
The gun control debate is one all on its own. Criminals WILL acquire guns by making them, sneaking them across borders, keeping them, etc. Criminals kill people who have no guns. And they do. If civilians are not allowed to have guns freely they will CONTINUE to be preyed on by criminals.

Root causes of crime?
Any society that lets kids grow up dependent on government welfare, attending government schools that fail to teach, and entering an economy where government policy has crushed opportunity, will be a society that breeds criminals. No permanent solution to crime will be found until we address these root causes of crime.

Free speech.
This is possibly the most doable of your plans. I have no problem with it.

Health care.
This is probably the least doable of your plans, as well as being the most problematic. The MSA part of your plan is admirable. Let people use their own money to pay for their own health care.
1. Health expenditures will be 100% tax deductible.
2 & 3. Government health laws reduce consumer choice and increase the cost of health insurance. By making insurance more expensive, mandated benefits increase the number of uninsured American workers.
Government agencies keep useful drugs away from us, killing Americans. If tose agencies are laxed, those problems will not happen.

Reform Education?
Welfare causes children to live in poor crime infested neighborhoods where the average person cannot expect to come out well. If parents get jobs they will leave those neighborhoods and have a better life. They will also be less likely to commit crimes.

Defend Our Rights
This is simply a statement of the fact that the Libertarian Party thinks the government should be smaller. Most Americans think this. It is not unique to the Libertarian Party, nor is it a real argument. Because it is a statement of position in what is becoming a policy debate, I will not address it until later.

How To Cut Taxes?
The government can be more fiscally conservative. The government can stop bailing out corporations and running non profitable corporations.

Privatize and Cut Taxes?
"Where does the government own airlines, power plants, and factories to sell to private investors? The answer is nowhere." Have you heard of NASA, the US Postal Service, US Power Plants, AMTRAK, Tennessee Valley Authority, Corporation for Public Broadcasting? NASA is not profitable and nobody uses AMTRAK for it to be profitable. Private corporations have beaten the US Postal Service. The list goes on.

Defend America.
US Aid is not effective. It is corrupted through African nations, there are cultural barriers and more. We can get rid of aid to most third world nations or reroute it differently. The aid now has been going since the 1940s and the problems have only gotten worse. Military expenses are over $250 billion a year! A large percentage of this is spent overseas to defend wealthy countries like Germany and Japan -- who then wallop us in international trade. Let's take them off MILITARY welfare.

Bailing Out Industry.
The government has bailed out Chrysler http://www.cato.org...), Amtrak and considered it again (http://www.heritage.org...), airlines (http://www.businessweek.com...), the US Postal Service (http://www.slate.com...).

Replace Welfare.
We should eliminate the entire social welfare system. This includes eliminating AFDC, food stamps, subsidized housing, and all the rest. Individuals who are unable to fully support themselves and their families through the job market must, once again, learn to rely on supportive family, church, community, or private charity to bridge the gap.

Income Tax.
I'm simply stating that the income tax can and should be reduced. I've expressed how. I assume if yo dont answer it that you agree with it.

- The libertarian party is not the best party ever, not only because a party is only as strong as the people in it (not a large number in the case on the Libertarian Party).
+ The Libertarian Party is Americas 3rd largest party.

MY OPPENENT'S SPIEL AT THE END SHOULD HAVE NO WARRANT WITH ANY JUDGE BECAUSE IT ESSENTIALLY DID NOT SAY ANYTHING EXCEPT --YOURE WRONG. HE DID NOT NEGATE ANY POINTS IN THE POINT AND THEREFORE IT SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED.

THANK YOU. VOTE PRO!!!
Chiblade

Con

Chiblade forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
policydebategod

Pro

YOUR TURN. I HOPE YOU ALL VOTE PRO. I FEEL THAT I PRESENTED THE MOST AND BEST ARGUMENTS AND I THINK THE ROUND WAS FORFEITED INTENTIONALLY. LETS HEAR HIS DEFENSE.
Chiblade

Con

Chiblade forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
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Vote Placed by U.n 1 year ago
U.n
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.
Vote Placed by PoeJoe 9 years ago
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