The Instigator
miketheman1200
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
Hanspete
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Libertarians have stronger principle than conservatives

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
miketheman1200
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/26/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 764 times Debate No: 68976
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (2)

 

miketheman1200

Pro

First Round acceptance

Definitions:

Principle - a fundamental, primary, or general law or truth from which others are derived [1]

[1] http://dictionary.reference.com...
Hanspete

Con

Fair enough, I accept, good luck.
Debate Round No. 1
miketheman1200

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate.

Most of us are familiar with today's Conservatives and Libertarians. At the core of each philosophy is the principle of limited government. This entails a fiscally responsible government and an opposition to a totalitarian form of government. There are numerous forms of the conservative all stemming from a common background belief. Conservatives stress the importance of the family, the need for strong national defense, limited government and free enterprise. [1]

Libertarians are focused more on the autonomy of the individual stressing individual rights, rule of law, limited government, and peace. [2]

We can now analyze how well conservatives reflect their principles compared to libertarians.

The most clear contradiction made by conservatives in regard to principle is the belief in limited government. While being a central part conservatism it is impossible to uphold considering their other principle beliefs. Conservatives want to preserve the morality of its citizenry to protect the family. The only way to do so is through regulations which require enforcement. Enforcement means a bigger government. Every law from prohibiting drug use, prostitution, gambling, or sexuality. All of them force government to grow and break down one of conservatism's core principles.

Conservatism's second flaw in principle is the belief in a strong national defense. Obviously the desire for a strong national defense and American exceptionalism leads to a big budget military and big central government. [5] Usually this belief also entails strong border security and tough immigration policy. This contradicts their belief in free enterprise. Immigration and open borders are beneficial to a free enterprise system. It allows for more investment, trade, and growth in the private sector. Not only does it contradict the principle of promoting free enterprise but once again is a tool for growing the size of government. [3] [4]

Ultimately anyone can label themselves a conservative and, depending on what their personal beliefs are, can completely defy what few principles are attached to that title.

Libertarians are consistent and concise. A Libertarian believes that you have the right to your life and what you do with it so long as you do not cause harm to others. The government exists to protect life, liberty, and property. These are its only natural functions. In this respect no function contradicts another.

The government cannot violate your liberty unless you violate someone Else's liberty.

The government can not interfere in the free market. It cannot block people from entering the country peacefully with arbitrary rules. It cannot choose winners and losers. It can only punish fraud and enforce contracts.




Hanspete

Con

Alright, I will greatly enjoy this debate!

Governmental Philosophy:
As was addressed by my opponent the ideals of limited government are prevelant in both parties, yes admitably more so to the Libertarian side in terms of individual freedoms to choose whatever the h*ll they would like to. One paper this is a brilliant and appealing idea to any who seek refuge from the grips of a nanny state or tryanny. Initially this is the approach taken by the U.S. in it's founding as it was seen as preferable to any governmental power at all. This was a considerable failure. [1] This failure was attributed to a lack of governmental control, however that does not justify the liberal idea of a nanny state in any fashion. The Conservative belief in limited government is different than the libetarian belief yes, but for the betterment of society. "That said, during its short lifespan, the Articles of Confederation became increasingly ineffective at governing the continually growing American states. The main cause of this ineffectiveness stemmed from a lack of a strong, central government. From the absence of a powerful, national government emerged a series of limitations that rendered the Articles of Confederation futile." (Also from source 1). Thsi quote more than shows that the libertarian apporach to government is incohesive and ineffective due to the fact that the states grew without one another, which could've led to the complete dissolution of the Union.

Defense System and the Military:
One of the defining moments in U.S. History was Ronald Reagans "Tear down this wall" speach in Berlin. Had a libertarian principal of Defense Cutbacks (Rand Pauls Phrase?). Had we applied this attitude toward the Soviet Union at these defining moments of the Cold War we would've seen who knows how much of a changed world. Is it possible to see the military take control of the government? Yes. Will it happen? Probably not. The Reason why is because it is specifically stated in the Constitution that the Military is solely civilian controlled, not controlled by the ruling political party. [2]

Conservative Strong Men v Libertarian Strong Men (Ted Cruz v Ron Paul, just an example)
Men of Conservative Values such as Reagan are far more electable than Libertarians, why you may ask? The case certainly can be made for the fact that Libertarians are just a thrid party, but Ron Paul didn't seem to care at all. Now to my point, men like Cruz are wildly Popular in the country[3], why? Because they idealize the conservative values that this country yerns to return to, not the more Libertarian Values that the country seems to be wary of. [4] (Please bare with me this is actually the shortest polling result that I could find).

In Conclusion:
When it really comes down to Who has stronger principlas it is a good thing both sides are filled with Men and Women who believe that way, but when it comes down to the war of philisophically convincing the public of there views Libertarians are just to far to the radical right for a country that is already plagged by the yanking of Communist and Socialists on the Left to back throtled in the exact way to the right. (Does that make sense to anyone but me?)



1- http://www.ushistoryscene.com...
2- http://www.jstor.org...;
3- http://www.politico.com...;(Please also consider that 70% of these men are conservative and together are twice as popular as moderates and several times popular than the Libertarian Candidates).
4- http://www.realclearpolitics.com...;
Debate Round No. 2
miketheman1200

Pro

I will begin by countering my opponents statements.


"Initially this is the approach taken by the U.S. in it's founding as it was seen as preferable to any governmental power at all. This was a considerable failure. [1] This failure was attributed to a lack of governmental control, however that does not justify the liberal idea of a nanny state in any fashion."

My opponent is referring to the articles of confederation here. What he doesn't seem to understand is that the problem here wasn't lack of government control on the individual. It was lack of control over the states and their autonomy. This system was replaced by Federalism with the US Constitution. All this did was give the Federal government more control over the States and set a precedent for what the government could/couldn't do to its citizens (The Bill of Rights). If anything the change in systems helped improve the rights of the individual because they could be better protected from State laws if the Feds choose to pursue a state violation of the bill of rights. [3]

In short the libertarian approach to government is not what the articles of confederation was. Even if it was its irrelevant to the argument which is a discussions of the principles of each philosophy. Its not about who is right but who has stronger principles.


"Men of Conservative Values such as Reagan are far more electable than Libertarians"


This isn't the debate we are having.

"conservative values that this country yearns to return to, not the more Libertarian Values that the country seems to be wary of"


I wouldn't describe the country as being "wary" of many Libertarian values. The war on drugs is losing its favorableness among Americans [1]. Gay marriage is being legalized in a majority of the states. People are wary of the national debt [2] and many believe our military is too big. Again, this isn't what the debate is about.


My opponent unfortunately has not given me any real arguments to rebuttal on the subject of this debate.


By citing examples of conservatives contradicting their principles in numerous ways and by providing the function of government in the eyes of the libertarian, I have demonstrated that libertarians have stronger principles than conservatives.


In conclusion:

Libertarians are not willing to compromise stated principles the way conservatives do for the sake of government functionality or personal preference. Thank you for the debate.



Sources:


[1] - http://www.drugpolicy.org...

[2] - http://www.gallup.com...


[3] - http://billofrightsinstitute.org...




Hanspete

Con

At this point I am really not sure what I am arguing anymore, to me I think I misinterpreted the context of the debate, I honestly thought we were debating... I am not even sure what I thought we were debating, sorry for ruining your debate! Yes I am concceeding. But thanks, we should debate somthing else next time, if you're up for it.
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Hanspete 2 years ago
Hanspete
Yes GO TO BED!
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
I'll vote on this later.
Posted by miketheman1200 2 years ago
miketheman1200
Yes Hanspete, empirically he is wrong
Posted by Hanspete 2 years ago
Hanspete
I think that is where both me and my opponent can agree that you are very wrong.
Posted by benko12345678 2 years ago
benko12345678
Both are morons :)
No, the free market doesn't provide for human life and no, socialized healthcare IS NOT socialism.
Posted by miketheman1200 2 years ago
miketheman1200
Either way the issue of conservatives and libertarians view on government must be addressed when talking about philosophical principle
Posted by Hanspete 2 years ago
Hanspete
Awesome thanks!
Posted by miketheman1200 2 years ago
miketheman1200
I am arguing that conservatives do not have as strong principles as Libertarians. You are arguing that they do. If you would like to bring up things aside from the role of government that's fine.
Posted by Hanspete 2 years ago
Hanspete
We are arguing on the principal of government alone or can I bring in other principals of the two?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Skepticalone 2 years ago
Skepticalone
miketheman1200HanspeteTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession
Vote Placed by 16kadams 2 years ago
16kadams
miketheman1200HanspeteTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: FF