The Instigator
Cherymenthol
Pro (for)
Losing
33 Points
The Contender
Nails
Con (against)
Winning
37 Points

Lincoln Douglas debate, topic will be standardized exit exams (September/October topic)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/24/2009 Category: Education
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,742 times Debate No: 10236
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (12)

 

Cherymenthol

Pro

AFF

"Standardized tests can't measure initiative, creativity, imagination, conceptual thinking, curiosity, effort, irony, judgment, commitment, nuance, good will, ethical reflection, or a host of other valuable dispositions and attributes. What they can measure and count are isolated skills, specific facts and function, content knowledge, the least interesting and least significant aspects of learning." Bill Ayers. It is because I agree with Bill Ayers that I affirm the resolution; Resolved: Public high school students in the United States ought not be required to pass standardized exit exams to graduate.

Observations:

All claims by the negative about standardized tests being adjusted to compensate for the qualifications I have listed to constitute a successful education must be taken in stride, While standardized tests can be altered to include more areas of testing they are unable to be changed to the point that the test a student on all the qualifications it takes to be a contributing member to society. This is because the some of the skills needed for success
can not be tested.

VP: Individuality

Individuality is defined as the particular character, or aggregate of qualities, that distinguishes one person or thing from others. If we take away the fact that we all have different ideas, means of doing things, and ways of living life, we are equivalently taking away the human factor out of human beings.

This resolution is clearly portraying the struggle between testing every student as if they all learned the same to using more specific and accurate means of determining whether or not a student has successfully has gathered enough knowledge to become a functioning citizen in society.

Due to the fact that Individuality, is unique for everyone of us the means to test individuals for personal success are different, this leads me to my Value Criterion.

VC: Promoting more specific means of determining whether or not a student ought to graduate.

No matter any attempt from the Negative to claim that exit exams are capable of testing to a wider variety of areas than they historically have and pragmatically will, no standardized test will ever be able to cater to the certain aspects that make us all who we are. We have to realize for education to be considered successful it must enlighten a student in a wide variety of areas, and with more specific means of determing whether or not a student ought to graduate we are able to recognize which students have successfully learned and those that haven't. And more specific means of determine whether or not a student ought to graduate, can constitute a wide variety of things be it individual assessments, project based grading, culmative reviews, or portfolios.

Dan Rudhyar speaks about how a person gains intelligence through individuality and therefore how we might test it, Intelligence is released as natural powers are used in a human way by the individualized human being in his effort to achieve victory over his life-environment. When, at a later stage of his growth, man has faced the tests of mutuality and responsibility, the integrative power of thought gives birth to a new phase of intelligence.". This meaning once an individual shows motivation and an interest in learning they have grown and are ready for success, and using individual assessments etc we are and deciding who is ready to face the world.

Definitions:

Standardized:
1. To evaluate by comparing with a standard.

Exam:
1. The act or process of testing pupils, candidates, etc. as by questions.

Pass:
1. To undergo or complete successfully.

Graduate:
1. To advance to a new level of skill/ acheivment

C1) Affirmative stance allows individualized education which doesn't teach to the test.

SUB A) Teachers need to teach in order for students to learn.Louis Volante says, "The job of any teacher is first and foremost to promote learning in their students. Student learning should emphasize applied learning and thinking skills, not just declarative knowledge and basic skills (Jones, 2004). Ideally, students are able to develop the skills necessary to take what they have learned and apply this knowledge in a novel situation. In sum this is my value criterion, we need teachers to teach students what they need to know for future success and in order to do that we need to highlight individuality. When the student is given the ability to apply knowledge, and use their thinking skills they are being individuals. Rather than being dictated what they need to know they are taking the curricula and taking away the things they need now and storing things they possibly will need later, which shows that students are assessing, learning, maturing, and growing to be successful in the future.

SUB B) However standardized tests detract from a teacher's ability to promote individuality and allow students to succeed. Louis Volante later goes on to write, "Emphasizing standardized testing also skews educators and the public's attention from what we want children to learn rather than what we can easily measure. For example, most experts agree that a balanced literacy curriculum should include components related to reading, writing, as well as speaking and listening Unfortunately, only reading and writing are typically measured by standardized school tests. Does this mean that speaking and listening are not valuable or worthy of attention within the curriculum? Obviously students need to utilize their speaking and listening skills to be successful in schools and higher education settings.."

SUB C) Actually standardized tests have a negative effect on students rather then simply preventing proper learning to occur they can almost completely ruin a child's schooling, Louis Volante comments, "Teaching to the test also has a "dumbing" effect on teaching and learning as worksheets, drills, practice tests and similar rote practices consume greater amounts of classroom time (Sacks, 2000). Insofar as standardized tests assess only part of the curriculum, time spent on test taking often overemphasizes basic-skill subjects and neglects high-order thinking skills. Research suggests that while students' scores will rise when teachers teach closely to a test, learning often does not change for standardized tests, provide their students with a solid foundation for future success." This shows that not only does a standardized test detract from the child's learning it is also detrimental. We are harming children giving them these tests, voting in favor of the affirmative allows for proper education and successful learning, something the negative fails to achieve.

C2) Graduation shouldn't be measured by one point in time rather by a collection of grades and experiences.

It is extremely inaccurate for one day in a student's life to determine his course in history, whether it be graduation or a repeat of that grade. A student's testing experience can be impacted by events out of his or her control such as the recent passing of a family member, sickness, bad luck, etc. But using the sum of the student's grades and teacher's reviews, which aren't affected by these events to the extent that standardized exit exams are, proves to be more accurate.

As a matter of fact, Standardized tests are bias, no matter the amount the negative can try to persuade you your race, social status, or economic background do matter. Roy O. Freedle a psychologist for the Educational Testing Service talks about the bias of standardized tests "often [Standardized Tests] have many more semantic senses than rare words," so there's more of a chance that people's cultural and socio-economic backgrounds will affect their interpretations of those words. Thus words that are frequently used in the middle-class neighborhoods of the test makers may have a different meaning in underprivileged minority neighborhoods.

thus I stand in Affirmation over the NFL's septembe
Nails

Con

=======
Definitions
=======

Ought: makes an action dutiful or morally obligatory
http://www.google.com...

========
Introduction
========

I advocate a portfolio-based exit exam system as a requirement to graduate, where each teacher submits a sample of each student's work (in a portfolio) for assessment by a state-wide board of evaluation. The portfolio contains material from areas across the curriculum to evaluate all aspects of student performance. Further information can be found here:http://www.unc.edu... or simply by using Google (search 'portfolio', 'grading', 'education', etc.)

Implementing such a system negates the resolution because it constitutes a standardized exit exam.
1. The portfolio system 'evaluates by comparing with a standard' as each assignment in the portfolio is compared to strict rubrics and criteria for grading as writing essays on the SAT are currently, thus it is standardized.
2. The portfolio system is an 'act or process of testing pupils,' thus it is an exam.

======
Rebuttal
======

I agree to the value of Individuality.

I fail to understand how he comes to conclude that his criterion somehow improves individuality. It seems to me that my opponent concludes that it is impossible to hold humans to standards.

1. Accepting such a conclusion would cause anarchy in society. We could no longer have rules or laws as this holds everybody to the same standard, thus denying individuality. Punishments would be flippant and arbitrary as they would be doled out on an individual basis.

2. This is a conclusion that society empirically rejects. We always desire to be treated fairly and assessed equally. It only takes the common sense of a child to realise this. If I gave 2 pieces of candy to one of my sisters and 3 to the other, I can guarantee that one of them would become more than somewhat jealous at being jilted and treated unfairly. I can also guarantee that she wouldn't take "you're both individuals. If I treated you the same it would disrespect your individuality" as an answer.

3. Such a conclusion is logically contradictory. My opponent can't simultaneously claim that we should assess all students in their own way and then say that it should be obligatory that they not be assessed by method X. If anything, by his criterion the resolution can't possibly be affirmed, because the only way for his value of individuality to be met is to allow students the ability to be assessed using these exit exams. Affirming the resolution and denying students the ability to be assessed a certain way would deny their individuality and their ability to be graded in whatever way is appropriate.

---

On his Contention 1,

He cites Louis Volante. For all I know, he's the creepy dude that lives down the street from me and stares at me whenever I walk by his house. Who is he? What are his qualifications? Why does his opinion matter?

I might as well cite John Doe as having said: 95% of students who don't take standardized exams have a deep feeling of regret at some point later in life. They commit suicides at 5 times the rate of those who took standardized exams and, on average, earn $5,800 less anually.

Subpoint A: "Teachers need to teach in order for students to learn."
I live in a state with standardized exit exams. You might not believe this, but... my teachers still teach.

Subpoint B: "standardized tests detract from a teacher's ability to promote individuality and allow students to succeed"
a. The entirety of PRO's argument is a quote from my neighbor, Louis Volante. It says nothing about individuality.
b. I see no reason why the skills that Volante talks about can be tested any better by PRO's system than a portfolio one.

Subpoint C: "standardized tests have a negative effect on students"
a. My opponent's citation is "(Sacks, 2000)." I think citing "Sacks" without giving his credentials is pretty ballsy.
b. Class time need not be devoted to drills. Portfolios are a sample of work already present in current curricula.
c. PRO keeps asserting that SEEs only test certain areas. We can take samples of work from a variety of classes to fix this.

---

On his Contention 2,

"Graduation shouldn't be measured by one point in time rather by a collection of grades and experiences"

This is exactly what I advocate.

======
My Case
======

Value: Individuality

Criterion: Assessing education relative to society as a whole

This is a necessary requirement of expressing our individuality. It allows intraspection and a greater understanding of our own individuality. We must be able to see how our traits compare to those of others in society in order to realize how we are unique. Getting a grade of B+ means nothing to me if it is graded on in 'individual' basis. We realize whether these scores are good or bad by comparing ourselves to our peers.

"I got a B+, but most of the class aced the test. I need to study harder!" or
"I got a B+, whereas most students flunked it. I'm excelling in this!"

When our grades are uniquely 'individual' they are also meaningless. A grade of B+ means nothing if I have nothing to compare it to. Maintaining a standard with which we can compare ourselves to others is the only way to allow for individuality because it is the only way to allow students to garner a deeper understanding of themselves, their unique strengths and weaknesses that make them an individual.

Thus, I contend that a portfolio-based system of education allows students to compare their scores to their peers.

This is intrinsic in the very nature of the portfolio system. As opposed to have individual, teacher assessments, having a portfolio system allows students to be graded by a state-wide rubric for achievement, giving them a score which is comparable to those of other students across the state. This gives students feedback on their education and stimulates individuality in a way that the hollow, meaningless scores of 'individual assessment' does not. It allows students to compare themselves to others, to realize their strengths and weaknesses, and thus to gain a better conception of themselves, their individuality, by comparing them to society as a whole.
Debate Round No. 1
Cherymenthol

Pro

First off i would like to remind my opponent that this is a Lincoln Douglas style round and as a result, and my opponents case resembles that of a policy one. He is giving a solution, that does not fit to the resolution. Therefore prima face we can drop my opponents entire case and go to mind.

Now for my extensions (unargued/ agreed and not to be further argued points LD rules)

My Value

My Defintions

My Observations

My Second Contention

======
Refutation (attacks on my case)
======

VC

He questioned how it improves individuality, however as I have and will continue to prove it is necceesary in order to achieve Individuality, also the inference that it is impossible to hold humans to standards is incorrect. I am pointing out ,and obviously you agree because you did not attack how I defined Individuality and explained it, that we the only correct standard to hold students to would be that of their own, how both they feel they can do and how those around them feel that they, particularly, can do. And Standardized Exit Exams do not do this.

1) Furthermore the statements about how individualized grading would lead to anarchy are absurd as well as unwarranted, and i never mention punishment, except to say that those who are not ready to live a life in society, ought to go back and learn. Therefore we can drop this non-topical tangent.

2) Once, again my opponent never gives warrants besides a mere ficticious anecdote. Now my opponent talks about Fairness and Equality, these are relative terms. Fair can be achieved two ways, by ensuring that everybody is at the same state of mind, happy, sad, etc. Or materially, Socialism, Communism. The only feasible as well as correct means of Fairness is to seek the first. Therefor the story about the girls recieving differing amounts of Candy wouldn't matter as much as long as they were each content." Also this irrational exploded view of individualism is preposterous, he fails to realize that possilby two indivduals could be happy with the same thing or if people were given what they both desiered that it would be violating the spirit of indivdualism, all in all please disregard this because it is blatantly untrue.

3) As i have begun to prove "Such a conclusion" is not al logical contradiction. My opponent mentions a method X and how we can allow individuals to test from everyway except this, but that is not so, if method X violates individualism they can't have it, but if people feel it is the most appropriate way, then they can have it, but that doesn't mean we need to force it for all. Also in the conlusion of his attack he sums his argument up by talkign about grading, but we are nto talking about grades and benchmarks we are talking about graduation.

C1)

1) He questions the validity of Louis Volante (Normally an attack of this nature would have been brought up duing C-X allowing me to share his credentials.). He is an Associate Professor, Faculty of Education, Brock University. And is esteemed in his area of work. Thus making his ideas/work valid
http://www.foed.brocku.ca...
http://www.foed.brocku.ca...

dismiss John Doe argument.

A) First off he has taken Volante out of context, teachers don't teach everything they ought to they merely teach to the test. And studies have shown (I would have brought up in C-X) That my this is true.
http://www.eric.ed.gov...

B) I will address his point when i discuss his introduction.

C) This is where Volante sites his work. I agree class time shouldn't be devoted to rote drills, yet it is.

======
The introduction
======

My opponent has lost the round due to his introduction for three key reasons:
A. It builds a policy case, therefore not LD and a rule violation.
B. Portfolio's are not Exit Exams
C. My case suggests the use of Portfolios.

A. My opponent offers the use of portfolio's to answer our troubles in school, thus presenting a solution. So we can't vote for him

B. A portfolio is not a SEE. While a portfolio does evaluate by comparing with comparing to a standard it is not an Exam. My opponent says that Portfolio's "are "the act and process of testing pupils" but they are far from it. Submitting past work is not a test, it is merely past work. Furthermore even if i were to assume it was the act or process of testing pupils, which their is not a shred of evidence to lead me to this conclusion, it does not due so by questions. I looked into the link and google and never were there questions to test a pupil. Therefore it is not an exam.

C. Also I blatantly state how portfolios are a more specific means of determing whether or not a student ought to graduate RIGHT IN MY CASE. I say verbatim, "... And more specific means of determine whether or not a student ought to graduate, can constitute a wide variety of things be it individual assessments, project based grading, culmative reviews, or portfolios." . Now this does two thigns, A. it means we can take every impact and benefit of portfolios because the Pro solves for them and B. we can techinically disregard every attack on the VC because they would be attacks against his own case.

Therefore we ought to vote PRO.

======
His case
======

VC

This value criterion is the polar opposite of Individuality, when we asses accoridng to society we are determing our own worth depending on others which is not what individualism means. And in so doing we make people robots by forcing them account to the same standard, thus dehumanizing them.

Now my opponent says if he gets a B+ its worth ought to depend on the surroundings and that is not so. If my opponent is capable of getting an A+ and he didn't then why should we consider a B+ fine. It is less that that which he can do. The impact of which is if he learns that he doesn't have to try to live in society, he won't therefore he will become lazy and suffer.

Through comparing to other students we don't learn our strengths and weakness. We learn whom we are stronger than and whom we are weaker than, not our overall strengths and weakness. And this relative strength, and relative weakness, is not good enough if we want to flourish.

Therefore we vote PRO
Nails

Con

"First off i would like to remind my opponent that this is a Lincoln Douglas style round and as a result, and my opponents case resembles that of a policy one. He is giving a solution, that does not fit to the resolution. Therefore prima face we can drop my opponents entire case and go to mind."

How is my case structured like a 'policy' case? I've never even seen a policy debate round before, let alone debated in one. Even if it's true, why is this a bad thing?

If his issue is with me proposing a specific type of test, that's ludicrous! Here's a list of the cases of the top debaters in the country. Quite a few have 'counterplan' type cases: http://debatecoaches.org...

---

"Now for my extensions (unargued/ agreed and not to be further argued points LD rules)

My Value

My Defintions

My Observations

My Second Contention"

OK, what does this mean? You get to 'extend' your definitions, therefore I lose? I'm not sure why you saying 'extend X,Y, ans Z' matters at all in the context of this round.

P.S. my argument on Contention 2 was that portfolios solve exactly that problem.

======
Rebuttal
======

His Criterion

"I am pointing out ,and obviously you agree because you did not attack how I defined Individuality and explained it, that we the only correct standard to hold students to would be that of their own"

So as long as a criminal hasn't broken a law by his standards then he shouldn't be arrested? The next time my teacher gives me a detention slip I should tell her that, according to my standards, I did nothing wrong? This is the problem with 'individual standards.' They don't make sense.

1) "i never mention punishment, therefore we can drop this non-topical tangent."

Flunking high school isn't a punishment at all, I see. To any of those that still consider failing high school and being denied a diploma as a punishment, this argument still stands.

2) His rebuttal confuses me. I'm fine with dropping this point, anyway.

IMPORTANT
3) "if people feel it is the most appropriate way, then they can have it, but that doesn't mean we need to force it for all."

My opponent misconstrues the burdens of the affirmative and negative. His argument is not that exams are 'permissible', whereas I must defend that they must be obligatory. Rather, as I defined ought (and he didn't rebut) he must prove that high schoolers have a moral obligation not to take these tests. Him conceding that students can choose to be tested by a SEE (and thus be required to pass it to graduate) is a direct negation of the resolution.

For those who don't know (as the resolution was never posted) it is: Public high school students in the US ought not be required to pass a standardized exit exam in order to graduate.

---

His Contention

A) "studies have shown (I would have brought up in C-X) That my this is true."

i. Unfortunately, he didn't post any studies whatsoever in his original speech, so there is no reason to accept that his that is true. He seems to be a stickler for strict LD format, so he should know that new arguments in the rebuttal certainly aren't acceptable.

ii. He posts a 110 page document. I don't feel like reading that, and I shouldn't be required to attack it. He hasn't posted any excerpt from it or any page number, so as it stands he still doesn't have any evidence to support him.

iii. His study doesn't address portfolios at all. He says himself in the original speech that portfolios are effective.

---

B) "I will address his point when i discuss his introduction."

I made 2 attacks on his subpoint B. He only covers one in the introduction.

"The entirety of PRO's argument is a quote from my neighbor, Louis Volante. It says nothing about individuality."
His source from Volante just talked about how exams affected education. There was absolutely nothing in there to support individuality at all.

He never addressed this, and since he seems to put an incredible amount of weight on 'dropped' arguments, this means his subpoint B is refuted.

---

C) "class time shouldn't be devoted to rote drills, yet it is."

Again, there is no reason to 'drill' kids with a portfolio system in place because it isn't a multiple choice test. Volante specifically analyzed the type of test that is currently most typical, which is multiple choice/ short answer.

========
Introduction
========

A) "My opponent offers the use of portfolio's to answer our troubles in school, thus presenting a solution. So we can't vote for him"

Hopefully I'm not the only person who sees this as backwards. I presented a solution...so don't vote for me?

---

B) "Submitting past work is not a test, it is merely past work."

i. A test, when graded, is also past work. How far in the past is 'past?'
ii. PRO's entire contention 2 explains why we should test from various points in time, not just one. His C2 works against him.
iii. I met PRO's original definitions for a test. That it can't be 'past work' etc. is entirely unfounded.

---

C) "I blatantly state how portfolios are a more specific means of determing whether or not a student ought to graduate RIGHT IN MY CASE."

...and I state that portfolios are standardized exit exams RIGHT IN MY CASE.

The difference? I have evidence to back my claim up.

---

=====
My Case
=====

My Criterion

His Claim:
"when we asses accoridng to society we are determing our own worth depending on others which is not what individualism means."

His definition of Individuality:
"Individuality is defined as the particular character, or aggregate of qualities, that distinguishes one person or thing from others"

We can't distinguish ourselves from others without a means by which we can compare ourselves to others.

====================
Order of Operations (in voting)
====================

First,

By his own definition of 'individuality' we require a means of comparing ourselves to others. We need to determine what makes us unique, or individual. This means you choose my value criterion as it is the only way to promote individuality, by giving students a means to better comprehend their own individuality. I'm the only one who gives students a means to assess their abilities relative to society as a whole, so you can vote right here.

Then, if you don't buy that, second,

You can vote on the 2 turns to his own criterion, #1 & 3. First, assessing everyone individually is comparative to anarchy where everyone makes their own laws. Second, he can't justify suppressing our ability to take SEEs in the name of individuality, because it is logically contradictory.

Finally, if you haven't voted for me yet (you should have), then third,

He is instigator as well as PRO in this argument, and none of his arguments at all have anything to do with portfolios. Therefore he has in no way met his burden of proof in showing that we ought not have portfolio-based standardized exit exams.
Debate Round No. 2
Cherymenthol

Pro

Cherymenthol forfeited this round.
Nails

Con

My opponent's profile picture says it all.

Vote CON.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Cherymenthol 7 years ago
Cherymenthol
Could people start leaving RFD's lmao
Posted by kalyse020908 7 years ago
kalyse020908
there you go nails
youre winning :)
Posted by Cherymenthol 7 years ago
Cherymenthol
Save it for the round :)
Posted by Nails 7 years ago
Nails
1. Forfeiting means you dropped every argument. You very clearly put a high priority on dropped arguments. This means there's no way you could win 'arguments.'

2. Forfeiting without any prior warning is generally considered bad conduct.

I don't really care about sources/spelling. They're pointless anyway.
Posted by Cherymenthol 7 years ago
Cherymenthol
Regardless of whether or not I had posted a response I still should win. Your entire case is is built around a lie, and a lie that I blatantly state is an example of my VC which you insist leads to anarchy. I was also camping with my family and bonding over the holiday. Also I agree with your debate challenge I should have won and you know it. Also the fact that your blaming me for voting for myself when you should not have voted or yourself is a clear indignation that a further debate on thus subject would yield results no different than this. But I am still eager to debate.
Posted by Nails 7 years ago
Nails
You voted for yourself in all 4 categories after forfeiting...
Posted by Cherymenthol 7 years ago
Cherymenthol
It wasn't you it was something else. Lmao
Posted by Nails 7 years ago
Nails
I'm quite familiar with that format, and am using it, if it wasn't clear in the rebuttal.
Posted by Cherymenthol 7 years ago
Cherymenthol
Do you know Lincoln douglas well and you were are pertaining to it as much as possible correct?
Posted by Cherymenthol 7 years ago
Cherymenthol
Because i have time to research, but you know were doing LD structure, also pardon the slow respoens family affiair
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