The Instigator
isthere
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Sukhmeet
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Listening to Orders

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/31/2013 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 646 times Debate No: 43169
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
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isthere

Con

Listening to orders is doing what other people tell you to do regardless of whether you want to or not. Why would anyone listen to what others want them to do and ignore what they actually want to do?

Can this problem escalate to the point of the individual not being able to recognize what he/she wants, after listening to orders for a long period of time? The answer is yes, because human beings are adaptable creatures, not only physically, but also psychologically. Therefore what they adapt to would be listening to orders, being a mindless slave to a power that could very well be lesser than the power of the individual.

What kind of power are we talking about? How about having the power to be in control of your current reality with the end result being the outcome you desire. It's the kind of power that doesn't involve brute force, rather realizing ideas in a creative manner in a given situation resulting in a forced or controlled outcome. It requires being aware of the truth and the subjective truths of others.

It's a way of life beyond the rules of the modern world, where authority has no authority and orders are powerless. So why listen to orders when they have no power over you? Instead, the power lies within the individual.

How can someone know if they have that power? They don't, because there is no way to know. Ralph Waldo Emerson said "Do the thing and you will have the power." stating the power is already in you, you just have to use it or else there is no power or even worse, it's trapped inside you. That's commonly known as depression. The opposite? Expression.

What kind of expression? That may well be the most important thing, our presence in the world and to the world. Being depressed exposes you to the risk of starting to ignore what you depress, which is your power, therefore you start to ignore your own power.
Sukhmeet

Pro

There are many reasons why someone should listen to orders because it can help lead to guidance, we all would need orders sometimes because there are some instances where we have to ideas that we are interested in that contradict each other. If you would not have to decide the lesser of two evils or more evils than I can understand that the individual should be able to make the right decision for themselves. An example would be parents giving you orders such as eat your vegetables, even though you may or may not enjoy vegetables they are still giving you the orders to eat vegetables because they care about your health. If we can speak for ourselves then we wouldn't need to even consider orders, but that is just not always the case. There are problems from listening to orders such as very little say for yourself and not being capable of thinking for yourself; however, if you always make your decisions yourself you could end up robbing a bank or murdering your spouse, end long friendships, so we have to take into account that we need guidance, some other orders are pretty simple like don't beat someone up, imagine if we lived a couple centuries ago we probably would be beating people all the time.
We all do have power for ourselves; however, we could use that power for good or evil, if someone gave dictators or tyrants orders, they wouldn't be called dictators or tyrants. We do posses our own power to control ourselves as you had stated, but that doesn't mean that what we do is always right, and that is why we have laws (although certain laws could end).
The power usually does lie in the individual; however, the individuals who don't listen to authority usually end-up being mass murders, rapists, or even being in a big gang, that is why we need authority to help lead us, even if it a simple therapist you still have authority it depend if you listen to that authority, and we must not be given the wrong authority and be able to decide which authority is best to follow (that is why we have corrupt leaders).
We all have the ability to know what power we posses, it just depend on what we do with that power, if we keep it to ourselves we will not be capable of going forward, we can take authority from a religious doctrine, the law of the land, or we could even be given authority from our own heart.
If we decided to not follow orders, we would become an Anarchy, a good example of an anarchy today would be Afghanistan, and we can not allow that to happen to the rest of the world; or a civil war if we do not listen to orders. It can end relationships, like not listening to what your girlfriend or boyfriend wants, not listening to what your parents tell you to do, or not listening to what your therapists or someone trying to help you want. You probably always listen to orders, whether a doctor telling you how much medicine to take and which medicine to take, a friend telling you that they would like to eat at a certain restaurant or even someone telling you that a pair of shoes do not match your pants
Debate Round No. 1
isthere

Con

Providing guidance is much more different than giving an order and both have different functions. When a person or an idea is providing guidance, it's guiding someone already willing to be guided. When a person is giving an order it doesn't provide any guidance, only gives the outcome that needs to happen. "Do this." or "Take care of that." doesn't provide the how and the why? Guidance would be explaining how to do something and why should you. It has nothing to do with giving orders.

If someone is willing to follow an order that is given, logically there's something they get from complying. People are selfish, everything they do, they do for selfish reasons and it's a mistake to ignore that. Even Christians who seem to be pure and give everything are doing it to for eternal life in heaven, which if it is pure, it's pure selfishness. Someone would follow an order for money, but it is not the order but what they gain from it that makes them follow the order. With that knowledge I would argue that following orders is not the natural state of human beings, because the only reason they do it is because they have something to gain from it or are forced to. Am I wrong? Still, It doesn't change the fact that it is an order. So in that instance, the individual would be following an order because he/she is willing to do so, not because he/she was told so. So there is no reason to follow that order if it didn't provide what the individual wanted to gain from it.

It's this authority of giving orders that somehow seem to imprison us in the world, but the truth is that a cage can't change a murderer, it can only contain it (I say "it" on purpose). An order would not provide guidance. If they had the chance and they wanted to, they would kill again. Ordering cannot help these humans, it just won't do, they won't listen and no order will provide the guidance they need, because ordering is not guidance. Ordering is brute force that is psychologically damaging to humans.

Many people mistake giving orders for providing guidance, thinking that just by giving the order everyone would understand why, even if the order was given for good reasons. That is why an order can be verbally and therefore psychologically violent, especially for children. Orders that children don't want to follow and still they are forced to follow result in deranged personalities. Guidance doesn't need ordering, it just guides a person through what it is willing to. What is a person willing to do and why? Why would a person be willing to rob a bank or kill another human being? Then consider why would you do the same (rob a bank, kill someone). Chances are the reasons for which you would do those things are completely different. A psychopath would kill for pleasure, a 21 year-old man would kill to protect his family.

Who is to say what is right and what is wrong? Something you consider to be right can be what someone else understands as wrong. Therefore whether something is right or wrong is completely subjective unless it can be stated as a fact. That is science, but we will go into that another time. What is important to know now is that right or wrong are not the same for everyone and laws don't have to be followed because they only exist in our minds.

Animals don't have laws, they don't give or receive orders and yet they live in order. Humans on the other are trying to contain order. If the law and order system falls for whatever reason it can fall there will be chaos, because chaos is required to maintain order, as strange as it may sound. Giving orders doesn't maintain order, laws don't maintain order, they contain it.

The definition for the word "contain" is to "have or hold (someone or something) within." which can also be recognized as depression. What if instead of containing order we try to maintain order? The definition of the word "maintain" is to "cause or enable (a condition or state of affairs) to continue.". So if we try to maintain order, we won't be holding the system in place by containing it, because it's impossible to contain and maintain at the same time.
Sukhmeet

Pro

Certain orders are necessary for the benefit of everyone, such as taking out the trash or helping your sibling learn how to play a sport. I agree that certain orders require selfishness; however, there is still a benefit in following those orders, even if they have no benefit whatsoever, just like a placebo, the individual could assume something is great:even if it has no real effect and still they feel great. Guidance is a type of order. Order-"The prescribed form or customary procedure" http://www.thefreedictionary.com... the fifth definition. Guidance-"The act or process of guiding" http://www.thefreedictionary.com... the first definition. Your initial argument does mention brute force; however, following orders is usually not something that requires violence.

The fact that there is the illusion of authority prevents a lot of corruption in a world, (not to say we already have enough), but there is still the option of playing it safe, assuming that we no longer have anyone to give us orders where would we be, it depends who they got the orders from- like let us say that no one ever gave any orders we would have no leaders and we would have less freedom from tyrants because now they will be able to rule. If there was any authority trying to stop Hitler and Stalin then the two would never be able lo lead such large empires. Orders do not have to be violent you can say your request politely more often than not, it is just most people do not and will not say their orders politely.

Children need to know what the real world has in store for them, that is a major problem for most people once they leave high school, they do not understand the real world, believe me I am a teenager and I have seen enough High School seniors leave school not prepared for the real world. If you truly believe that you are breaking the law for a good reason than I can guess that it probably is, I can understand that a psychopath and an innocent man will probably be killing for two very different reasons; however, if possible they should seek help, violence is a last resort.

I will not refute the right and wrong issue because that has nothing to do with this debate, it will only waste our time, if you agree to no mention that right and wrong moral as part of this debate.

Animals do a lot of things that humans would not do because we are a lot more organized than that, well most of us
Cannibalism: http://www.themost10.com...
Rape: http://en.wikipedia.org...
So animals are just as stupid as some humans, or vice versa

We have order for a reason, and that reason is to prevent chaos; chaos-"state of extreme confusion and disorder" https://www.vocabulary.com... top of the page.
also chaos is the opposite of order and we have orders to keep order.

You also fail to acknowledge that order is what keeps you alive today or not missing, without order we would be a lot like this http://sav-cdn.com...

It really is your choice do you want there to be no order or do would you want no chaos?
Debate Round No. 2
isthere

Con

It is true that certain orders are necessary for the benefit of others, but the question is what do people want to benefit from? Do people want to benefit from what they get by listening the order (whatever it is, if it is for some kind of benefit) or they want to benefit from something else. It all comes down to a choice. What is that person saying "yes" to?

For example, if an individual who plays a musical instrument knows that he/she benefits from sitting in a room and practicing scales all day, also knows there will be no improvement on a musical level if he/she listens to orders like "Don't practice because you have to study", "Leave your instrument (in other words "your passion") because there are more important things in life". But who's to say there are more important things in life than the art of a musical instrument? In that case by listening to the order the individual is not benefiting his/herself, rather benefiting the one giving the order by accepting their reality. Making the distinction is very important, keeping in mind what the person says "yes" to and what the person should say "no" to.

Because if someone is not able to say "no", eloquently, that same person is automatically exposed to violence, because the only thing left to say is "yes". But no one should say "yes" to everything. This may seem like an exaggerated example, but it makes my point and I hope you understand in what aspect and what context I cannot allow ordering to be made possible.

When I look back in retrospect I can say that I was vague when I named this debate just "Listening to Orders". The context from which we approach the same Debate is very different and a little more focus on the theme wouldn't have hurt. I hope that by the next round we will find common ground on which we can both understand each other more clearly, although I'm absorbing a lot of information as it is. I must admit that the video you posted changed my view of the animal kingdom and I feel enlightened and thankful for that.

What can be the benefit of listening to orders derived from selfishness? In other words, how could someone benefit by listening to an order that another gave from selfishness? Politicians make use of the Placebo effect you mentioned and that results in people being deluded and miserable.

Guidance is a type of order, but order, as the definition states is Prescribed which means that the individual needs to be familiar with that type of order so he/she can follow it, otherwise it wouldn't be Prescribed. Just like a medical Prescription serves the purpose to help the patient and different Prescriptions can help with or cure different health complications, also different Orders can focus different types of behavior and if a certain individual doesn't follow that Order, in the framework of that particular Order, he/she will be considered as an Anarchist. After that it all comes down to the Power of that Order vs. the Power of the Individual. That's why Afghanistan is a war zone, because the people overpower the Order. The way they overpower it is in the truest sense violence, which is not what I'm concerned with, but it will help my point. Just like the people of Afghanistan overpower the order in their country, so can the Order overpower an individual who otherwise is capable to achieve much more intellectually, artistically and peacefully.
Sukhmeet

Pro

Sukhmeet forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
isthere

Con

isthere forfeited this round.
Sukhmeet

Pro

Sukhmeet forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
isthere

Con

isthere forfeited this round.
Sukhmeet

Pro

Sukhmeet forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Sukhmeet 3 years ago
Sukhmeet
I would like to say that I would like to end this debate
Posted by isthere 3 years ago
isthere
I'm debating because I like to clarify my own reality and logic, understand the beauty of the universe and live up to my potential. I'm still trying to discover that potential that's trapped inside me and this seems to help me a lot.
Posted by Sukhmeet 3 years ago
Sukhmeet
I can tell that this debate will be a very interesting one, you probably have a lot of experience debating before, even outside this website, I assume that you only started this debate because you need 3 debates to verify your account
Posted by Sukhmeet 3 years ago
Sukhmeet
I accept your challenge
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