Literal Creation vs Theistic Evolution
Debate Rounds (5)
We can debate the legitimacy of the book of genesis and evolution. Go ahead with your first argument for round one (: .
Make sure to site most (if not all) arguments.
a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better
Case 1: Proving Evolution
First, I would like to prove how evolution is real. In a shocking discovery, we share 98.6% of our DNA with an ape. (1) if you click into link, you can barely tell the ape and human chromosome apart! Yet, when you compare it to a mouse's chromosomes, you can clearly see the difference. This proves that the ape and humans are greatly related. This proves evolution. Still not satisfied? Well, we should prove evolution using man's best friend. It is proven we share 5% of our genome sequence with dogs and mouse. (2) this again proves evolution. Even dogs and mice have a scientific similarity!
Here you can see the images of the human, mouse, and ape chromosomes. As you can see, this points towards evolution, as you can barely see the difference between the human and ape chromosome, but you can clearly see the difference between the mouse and the human.
Here you can see the similarities of our brain. However, you will see our brain is considerably larger. This gives us the power to communicate and give us a sense of right and wrong.
Here you may see how the skulls start out with a little similarities, but then has a bigger and bigger resemblance
Here you can see the beginnings and current human skulls. When you look at the first one, you see it is very different. It then gradually evolves into the human skull we know today.
Case 2: Adam And Eve
The Bible self-destructs with everything science has taught us. The science of forensics disproves Adam and Eve 100 times over. If we are from Adam and Eve, We would practically be cousins with everyone in the world! No. This is scientifically impossible. Instead, forensics states that we are not all related. Adam and Eve also don't explain race. If we are all descendants from Adam and Eve, we would all be one race. Adam and Eve states they have two sons, Kain and Abel, but, WHERE THE HELL ARE THE GIRLS?!???!? They must have had something to repopulate with. It is also said Adam and eve knew how to speak, but even cavemen had no idea of the simplest languages! Wouldn't Adam and Eve have taught their children to speak their language? They also say that Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge, yet, man has never found a tree that give knowledge of everything in the universe! The tree had a fruit, which means it probably had seeds, which would have made other trees similar to it, giving infinite knowledge of everything. They also say that the snake spoke at one time, yet, the snake has no vocal cords! (5) There is also evidence that the Earth is older than 4,000 years. Human footprints believed to be 40,000 years old have actually been older! It is 51,000 years old. (3) Even a tree shows the Earth is older than 4,000 years! (4) That is all Adam and Eve should be taken as. A story.
Most mutations are also neither helpful or harmful. Yes the humans and the chimps are greatly related, and yes humans and mouses are extremely different. But 30 million mutations is alot of mutations. Evolution teaches that death brought man into the world. Creationism teaches man brought death into the world. Because of Adam and Eve's sin, organisms would die. This means there was no death before sin, which is the opposite to your position. When God rested on the seventh day he looked into his creation and claimed it was good (Genesis 1:31). Is your idea of good animals eating and killing each other, while they compete to survive? God created a perfect world which was ruined by the fall of man which brought death into the world through sin.
Fossils cannot be used as evidence because we have no idea if they are the ancestor to anybody, let alone the whole human race! You can't dig up a bone in the dirt and claim it is related to this species and that species and that we evolved from it. Why aren't these middle species between humans and monkeys alive today? Is there only point in living serving as an intermediate between a less and more evolved species? Is that what you want to tell people? That their only point to life is serving as the bridge to a smarter species? That would ruin my self esteem trust me. God made all species with a purpose, whether it is now or was in the past. Organisms benefit from each other constantly in the environment we see today. Also, a bigger brain does not mean that an organism is smarter or has more intelligence.
https://www.google.com... (haha sorry for the long link).
Based on this picture, the dolphin and the elephant are more evolved than us. We obviously gain alot more intelligence in our lives that Elephants or dolphins can. An elephant doesn't know 2+2. An elephant can't tell right from wrong.
Let me head in on rebuddling your case 2.
How is it impossible that we are practically cousins with everone in the world? Evolution teaches that EVERY organism is related. You basically contradict yourself saying that my world view is impossible when being related to every human is alot less crazy than being related to every organism. You also can't make an outrageous comment that forensics disproves everyone being related without citing it!
Here's an explanation of Races that is far better than I can explain it http://bible-truth.org...
Genesis 5:4 clearly states that Adam fathered sons and daughters. http://biblehub.com...
You assume Adam and Eve were cavemen, which is a common misconception. You can't say they didn't know how to speak when they clearly spoke to God! Also how do you know cavemen didn't know the simplest languages? How do you know cavemen were dumb and didn't communicate verbally? If you want me to explain more on cavemen and how they fit into the bible just tell me to in the next argument.
First of all the tree of knowledge is no longer around because it was destroyed in the flood of Noah with the rest of the earth. Man already has knowledge of good and evil so why would we need to find it? Basically it perished in the flood along with the Garden of Eden, plain and simple.
The snake has no vocal chords, of course. The serpent in the Garden was Satan which we can pin-point from other biblical verses of the sort. http://www.answersingenesis.org...
The method used to date objects is called radiometric dating. Many assumptions are made by scientists when they date things like this. Here are a few: http://www.answersingenesis.org...
For example to date the tree the scientists used Carbon dating. Carbon dating measures the amount of Carbon 14 (a rare isotope) in the object to the amount in the atmosphere. Because the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere has been changing over the past hundreds of years, Scientists cannot accurately date objects with it.
In your next argument, prove to me the earth is old, as i will rebuttal with the earth being young.
Prove to me other species have evolved. Explain to me what parts of the bible you can trust based of your beliefs. Would you trust Jesus if he said that genesis was literally true? He never told a lie.
I have to admit, at least your trying to make this partially scientific. I'll give you cudos for that. However, let's get on the business.
Let's start with the link you brought. Assuming you would need to have 30,000,000 mutations to make us human, lets go over it. Apes bred like a pair of bunnies! Considering there could be multiple mutations per generations, it is possible for the apes to evolve into humans. Then you start with the bible quoting saying that we die because of sin, which will really get you killed in this debate (see what I did there). We die because of cause like heart attack, where our arteries get clogged. Cancer, where our cells multiply ab-normally, and many other causes. Not because of sin. Then you say animals don't compete with each other to survive, which is totally in-correct. What do you think a lion does with a gazelle? Do you think he just lets the gazelle pass by? No! He kills and eats it. Animals also compete for mates.
First off, the fossils are accurate because of left-over DNA, and the resemblance of the skeletal structure. Then you say if evolution is true, then you virtually have nothing to live for except evolving into a better species. That is in-correct. You have the power to do anything in your life, make it anything you want it to be. For instance, I can choose to debate you or not. Then you bring the link with the whale brain. Here is a link explaining why we may be smarter than whales. (1) I had that picture to demonstrate how much our brains are alike, yet different.
This is an obvious miss-conception of evolution. Many evolutionist (including me, my best friend, many scientist, ETC) believe we are not related to everything. We believe that God created our ancestors! The tower of Babel that many bible believers use to explain race, is not accurate. (2) At the time the tower of Babel was supposed to happen, there were already many different languages and races. Thus, it is inaccurate.
I will prove Noah's Ark never happened soon.
Then how are there cavemen! If Adam and Eve were not cavemen, then how did cavemen come to be? Yes, I would love to see how cavemen fit into the bible.
Satan wasn't even an angel at the time, and God supposedly said in the bible "curse you snake!" Not, "Curse you Satan!"
Biblical website presents an crap load of bias. Keep using links like this and I'll destroy them everytime.
Case 1: Noah's Ark Never Happened
The first and biggest thing that proves Noah's ark never happened is all the animals Noah would have to get! All the animals, from all the countries, from all the continents. Even if Noah could, how could he feed all of those animals for let alone the 40 days and 40 nights of rain?!?! Not to mention all he time it took all the water to evaporate. The next biggest thing is Noah was 500 years old when he started building the ark, and 600 when he finished. This is bull! In the time, a Egyptian was considered ancient at age 60. Think, that is 440 year younger than when Noah started building the ark, and 540 years when Noah was done with the ark! Also, how could the boat float with all the pounds of all the species of elephants and all the other animals. There work back then wasn't really good. Also, how could they keep all the animals from eating each other? They also say that the only humans on the ark were Noah and his family which means we are all descendants of Noah.
Case 2: Old Creation
This link explains a heck of a lot of things that conflict with recent creation! (3)
Case 3: Jesus
Jesus could have meant it by metaphors!
Thank you. I look forward to your response!
Most mutations are neither helpful nor harmful. Also mutations don't happen every generation. Most mutations occur in the sperm or egg cell which do nothing to advance the organism. They don't happen in every generation, what happens is the mixing of genes from the mother and father. Not new information being added, just being mixed around.
We do die of natural causes such as disease, yes. But in the Garden of Eden, the paradise on earth, there was no death or sickness. God created it with no intention of death or suffering. When man choose to eat the apple, the first sin, that is when diseases and death came into the world. We don't die because of sin, we die because our kin committed a sin. (: (I smiled when i wrote that last sentence).
I said animals didn't compete to survive in the Garden of Eden. Lions didn't eat gazelles. They were vegetarian. When you look at a common bear today they look like they only eat meat, but 90 percent of their diet consists of plants. http://www.bearsmart.com...
Fossils: How do you know what their kids looked like? What if one hundred generations down the road they looked mostly the same? You don't know if they had kids, or even different kids. You don't even know if they are our ancestors!
You said we do have a point in life! We do! God created us IN HIS IMAGE and doesn't need to use random chance and failures of organisms to get us here! We have the power to do anything we want. The human consciousness is not a product of random chance.
We are smarter than whales. Basically you were inferring that the bigger brain you have, the more intelligent you are.
I did not misconceive evolution. It believes we all evolved from a single celled organism. So if that were true we would all be related to one another. Also majority belief does not decide true from false.
The bible says that people lived for hundreds of years. If this were true then we would discover fossils of human-like organisms that have larger bones than us. Many 'caveman' skeletons have a very profound eyebrow bone. You can feel little ridges of bone just above your eyebrow that never stop growing. Even look at the side view of your fossil 'I' and you can see an example of this.
"Biblical website presents an crap load of bias. Keep using links like this and I'll destroy them everytime." -You
Yet you didn't. And you use Wikipedia as a source. My teachers in middle school would flip out if I used wikipedia as a source.
God brought the animals to Noah. And he didn't bring one of every species, just one of every kind. The bible says a kind of animal are ones who can bring forth. Every dog can interbreed. There might be some mechanical problems with size difference but they can still bring forth. Noah probably needed two general run of the mill dogs. Also a horse and a zebra can interbreed. These are just a few examples. Lowering the amount of animals to kind drastically lowers the amount of animals needed. Noah was probably a smart guy and didn't bring adult animals on the ark, lowering the food required and weight. But weight is no issue, seeing as modern ships are greatly larger in size and weight yet still float. Egyptians were after the flood of Noah. Easy solution to keep animals from eating each other: cages.
http://youngearth.com... Here's a source with evidences of a young earth. Also instead of just throwing information at each other and saying READ let's actually try to explain some things to each other so we know what to refute.
Petrified trees prove that layers of strata in fact are not different in ages and prove that they were buried very rapidly. They are found around the world and prove a worldwide flood.
Saturn's rings are approaching the planet too fast for the universe to be old. They would have collided with the planet millions of years ago!
Earth's magnetic field is decaying too rapidly for our planet to be extremely old.
Jupiter and Saturn are rapidly losing heat. If the universe was millions of years old then they would have been completely cooled of a while ago.
Your wikipedia site also says that Ice layers are annual layers. The actually represent hot cold hot cold. Not annual rings.
Wood does not take millions of years to petrify. Also it does not take millions of years for stalactites or whatever to form.
Saying Jesus could have meant it by metaphors is a horrible explanation seeing that Jesus is God and witnessed the whole thing. What else would a day mean?
Good luck in the next round!
First, I didn't literally mean that they bred like bunnies. What I meant to say was like, they would have sex and get pregnant very often. Even mutations that have no effect tweaks our DNA just a little, which makes us a little more complex. Even if you don't see the effect there, it effected you. Your link didn't say exactly what type of mutation it had to be correct? :)
You say all animals are vegetarians in the garden of Eden. I guess the tiger wasn't part of the garden then. Tigers are pure carnivores. (1) Then you simply imply because of religious text that God never intended that we die. That is literally hilarious. You say God never intended suffering, which includes pain. Yet, that would mean our nervous system couldn't exist. But, without the nervous system, we can't move! You see, your brain sends information through electrical charges that run through your nerves, and the brain sends messages back telling your muscles what to do. Nerve endings are put through some places in the body. One place is male balls. If getting kicked in the balls didn't hurt back then, then you wouldn't move. You would die from thirst since you couldn't get up to get water. This is one of your biggest flaws in your arguments.
Here is the full whale evolution. Here you simply imply that we wouldn't know what the organisms would look like, but science has developed a lot. Then you continue to not read my links! CAN SOMEBODY PLEASE READ!
That is macro evolution. In theistic evolution, you believe God created multiple ancestors for a certain group of animals.
It is true. But biblical websites have a hela-load more of bias. As for the bone, do you think scientist have no discovered a fossil like that?
LOL. Literally, you have no idea how many dog breeds there are. You can't get them all by breeding one breed with another! Then you have certain species of horses too, like mustang, ETC. Whoops about the Egyptians, I meant passed the time of Noah.
I warned you. Don't use these links. These are very bias. All I see is creation websites. Get a website that has no official stance on the religion and then we'll talk. If not, then don't even try those arguments. Then you give an example of part of the wiki, and say wood doesn't take that long to petrify. Actually, it takes millions of years. (2)
A day to God, could means millions of years to us.
Overall, I don't think you have made one effort to prove Adam and Eve scientifically one bit. The BOP is equal, so start trying to prove it, or you'll see convincing arguments slip away.
danbeliever forfeited this round.
7 point drop. I win! A pity. He was a really good debater.
Not all mutations do anything. In the DNA three straight base molecules is called a Codon, which codes for a certain amino acid. There's about 64 possible codons that can be found in DNA. It has to be in the perfect order to code for an amino acid. If it's not, it doesn't code for anything. Most of the time in mutations that happens.
I know tigers are carnivores, but you didn't interpret my example correctly. I'm saying that bears look like they would only eat meat but their diet consists of mostly plant things. So I'm saying that if bears with sharp teeth and claws eat plants, then why couldn't tigers or lions do the same in the Garden?
The Bible clearly says that God didn't mean for man to sin, so that means he never intended death since man brought death into the world.
Here is a report by abc news on a girl who doesn't feel any pain
Yet obviously she can move. Just because people in the Garden couldn't feel pain doesn't mean they can't move.
Again you use fossils. How do you know that those species of animals are related to one another? This change would have even more mutations than your projected Chimp to Human model. How do i know that full skeletons have been found? You show me the model of how scientists think it happened. How do i know this isn't fake without being shown real bones? You might say "Textbooks don't lie" but i'm pretty sure most biology textbooks teach Embryology. If you don't know what that is it's basically an evidence for us all having a common ancestor based on similar embryos. But it was fake.
That's an example of how textbooks can lie.
About my creation websites I bet you didn't even click the link because they SITED their sources at the bottom of both articles. Bet you missed that one didn't you?
My link says wood takes a short amount of time to petrify. Yours says the opposite. I guess we will never know who's right.
Proving the Garden of Eden scientifically would mean i need physical proof that it existed. Obviously i don't have that because of Noah's flood which destroyed it along with everything on the earth.
God isn't affected by human perception of time, so it is impossible to say that a million years to us is a second to him.
CHALLENGES: Use the Bible to support your evolution standpoint. Also, explain to me why the book of Genesis was written? It was written to explain our origins, or I'm guessing the people who wrote it (People who lived close to the time) weren't aware of Modern sciences. Why would they lie? Obviously it would be bad for the Church if the Bible lied. People would certainly fall away from the church!
Wanna debate again? This was fun!
Cooldudebro forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Sagey 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Con came out of the starting booth flying, with genetics and quite good evidence for Evolution, Pro started off well, with an alteration of the 98% chimp-human matching to 95%, so made a 3% difference already. But digressed to the same old Creationist arguments which were debunked decades ago. A disappointment there. Then Pro hit an even further low and sourced from Answers-In-Genesis, which should be renamed Answers-In-Lies, as these sources contained nothing but trite nonsense. Pro started off well, but failed to rebut the better evidence and arguments of Con. Both had Forfeit marks against them in the conduct stakes, so cancelled out there.
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