The Instigator
Yraelz
Pro (for)
Winning
20 Points
The Contender
acer
Con (against)
Losing
10 Points

Lm Classic: Yraelz vs. Acer

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/28/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,644 times Debate No: 9065
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (67)
Votes (6)

 

Yraelz

Pro

Here are all of the rules: http://www.debate.org...

I wish my opponent luck.

My team:

1. Sephiroth
For anyone who doesn't know, he was the main protagonist in the final fantasy 7 series.
Powers: He has a lot, notable ones are the ability to teleport, to move faster than the speed of light, his super nova attack, meteor...
http://www.theyoungone.net...
http://villains.wikia.com...
http://www.animevice.com...
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com...

2. Black Alice, before she went to Hell and was traumatized.
Powers: She has the ability to steal the powers of others.
http://en.wikipedia.org...(comics)

3. Sentry (Robert Reynolds)
Powers: Super hearing, can move faster than light, energy projection, control of light, passive radiation, resuscitation, the ability to implant memories.
http://en.wikipedia.org...(Robert_Reynolds)#Powers_and_abilities

4. Vash (without his super weapon Angel Arm)
Powers: Superhuman agility, reflexes and strength. He once prevented mass amounts of deaths by throwing pebbles in order to knock bullets off of their course. He has also been seen using telepathy. He is extremely intelligent if not the most intelligent human.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

5. Emma Frost
Powers: Extreme Telepathy rivaling Charles Xavier, Diamond Form.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I would like to warn my opponent before I continue. I do not have the time or the space to fully describe each character I posses while simultaneously arguing this round. If you would like to make attacks on my characters you will doubtlessly have to do some research for yourself.

Having read about four of these debates now I've decided that the team that usually loses is the team that doesn't have very fast members. Thus I plan to employ a strategy of quick tactics.

Zero Time - The Very Moment the Fight begins.
===============================
Both Sephiroth and Sentry can move faster than the speed of light. This gives them a massive advantage over Cons team. A lot of characters who can either move at speed of flash steps or slower. Meta Knight and House will be dead before they could even imagine reacting. Additionally Byakuia, Kakashi, and Ichigo, while being fast, would not be able to keep up with Sephiroth nor Sentry.

I hypothesis that Sephiroth and Sentry could make short work of them without using any special powers. However, I'll leave it on my opponents shoulders to prove that they could somehow react to Sephiroth and Sentry. The sources I've seen clock flash steps in the miles per hours, not in light.

Having said that, even if my opponent could prove this, Sephiroth and Sentry have a few powers which just puts them out of the bleach character's league. Super Nova and the Sentry's Energy Projection (capable of harming the hulk when solar flares cannot) would obliterate the team bleach.

Outcome: Team Con Dead

A few seconds
==========
Vash, would be aware, he can see and stop bullets, he can react quickly. Using this ability he would be actively protecting both Frost and Black.

Frost in the meantime would switch to diamond form.

The three of them would make their way into a nearby building from which they could see a large swath of New York City. Black Alice would stare out the window. Frost would bar the door. Vash would wait.

Your move. ^.^
acer

Con

I would first like to thank my opponent for starting this debate.

My team: (These are very basic descriptions. A more detailed list can be found in the sources.)

1. Gregory House
From the TV show House, he is the main doctor. He is a very skilled doctor with a vast knowledge of medicine and infectious diseases.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

2. Meta knight
A character from Kirby who plays both as a good and bad guy. He is exceptionally skilled with his sword and he owns a huge ship. He also owns the master sword, galaxia and the dimensional cape. The swords are extremely sharp and have various powers explained in my source. The dimensional cape allows Meta knight to teleport.
http://kirby.wikia.com...

3. Kakashi Hatake
One of the main characters from Naruto Manga. He is a incredibly fast and skilled ninja. His speciality is his Sharingan. It allows him to see his enemy moving no matter how fast they are and it gives him the ability to counter it. He also knows thousands of jutsu that can help him fight in any situation.
http://naruto.wikia.com...

4. Byakuya Kuchiki
One of the captains from the manga Bleach. He is a very experienced and skilled fighter. His flash step is advanced and can instantly teleport him wherever he chooses. His sword has the ability to scatter into millions of tiny fragments that can envelope the opponent and shred him from any angle.
http://bleach.wikia.com...

5. Ichigo Kurosaki
A substitute soul reaper from the manga Bleach. He is also a very skilled and speedy soul reaper. His flash step is highly advanced and with the addition of his bankai, it speeds up several times. He also has a hollow side to him that can protect him from almost any blows. When Ichigo hollowfies, he becomes even stronger and faster.

"Both Sephiroth and Sentry can move faster than the speed of light. This gives them a massive advantage over Cons team. A lot of characters who can either move at speed of flash steps or slower. Meta Knight and House will be dead before they could even imagine reacting. Additionally Byakuya, Kakashi, and Ichigo, while being fast, would not be able to keep up with Sephiroth nor Sentry."

That is impossible. Nothing can move faster than the speed of light without traveling through time. Rule number thirteen states that there can be now time travel, therefore, no one can move faster than the speed of light. http://physicsstash.blogspot.com...

Also stated in the source, it takes incredible energy to move at or near the speed of light, therefore my opponents characters would quickly drain themselves of their energy. Also, I saw nowhere in the sources that Sephiroth can move faster than the speed of light. In only one, not trustworthy source, does it say that Sephiroth can teleport. In other reliable sources, their is not mention to his speed being any higher than a normal person.

And Sentry derives his power from a serum. So, for him to be able to utilize his powers, he must first take the serum. This takes more than 0 seconds, more than enough time for Ichigo, Byakuya, Kakashi, and Meta knight to escape. Plus, Meta knight has his dimensional cape which allows him to teleport.

"The sources I've seen clock flash steps in the miles per hours, not in light."
I would like to see these sources. I found no written data for the speed of flash step, however, from watching the anime, it is clear that the flash step is basically teleportation. The characters move from one location to another in almost no time.

"Having said that, even if my opponent could prove this, Sephiroth and Sentry have a few powers which just puts them out of the bleach character's league. Super Nova and the Sentry's Energy Projection (capable of harming the hulk when solar flares cannot) would obliterate the team bleach."

Not if it can't hit them. Utilizing the flash step, my Bleach characters could easily evade such attacks. Kakashi, with his sharingan, could use his kumai and collapse your characters and there attacks to an infinitely dense point. http://naruto.wikia.com...

True outcome: Sentry and Sephiroth condensed into a single point.

After Sentry and Sephiroth have been defeated, kakashi will use his sharingan to find and target the remaining characters before they entered the building. My bleach characters are also supernaturally aware of beings and can sense where the rest of the characters are.

"Vash, would be aware, he can see and stop bullets, he can react quickly. Using this ability he would be actively protecting both Frost and Black."
It is true that he can sense my characters coming, however, Kakashi will use his Sharingan's genjutsu (mental technique), to disable Vash by blocking his senses. Then he will use his lightning blade technique to kill Vash in one blow. He can also simply use his Kumai once again and destroy all the opposing characters at once. Also, he can use his sharingan to copy sentry's supernova attack and use it on the remaining characters.

"Frost in the meantime would switch to diamond form."

Byakuya will use his sword's power to destroy Frost. No matter how impenetrable Frost's defense is, Byakuya can intensify his blades cutting power to be able to almost cut anything. With his powered up sword, he will kill Frost. Also, if Kakashi is not successful, he himself knows binding techniques which he can use to restrict and kill the remaining members.

Ichigo would target and kill Black Alice with his amazingly fast flash step. Black Alice's weak point is that she has to see the person she wants to steal the powers from to steal them. However, Ichigo can move faster than her eye can see. Without ever being able to see him, her powers are useless. Ichigo can kill her almost instantaneously.

True Outcome: Team PRO obliterated.

This is going to be a very fun debate. I await your next move.
Debate Round No. 1
Yraelz

Pro

The greatest feeling in any debate round comes when you watch your opponent walk into a trap you set up. This is unfortunately what has just happened to my esteemed opponent, Acer. But before I get to that part of this debate, let me establish a few related arguments.

My opponent makes the claim that Sephiroth and Sentry cannot move faster than the speed of light. Not only, he says, is it physically impossible but also it would also stop time thereby I would violate the no time travel rule. My arguments are simple.
1. First off it's not true. Things can move faster than the speed of light. For instance Tachyon particles are believed to move faster. http://en.wikipedia.org... .
2. Additionally many scientists argue things such as the Alcubierre drive and traversable wormholes would both enable faster than light movement without time stops. http://en.wikipedia.org...
3. Next on this point I would argue that your analysis comes directly from Einsteins theory of relatively. There have been a plethora of scientists (some who I'd argue were greater) who criticized Einsteins theory (yes theory) of relativity. For instance Nikola Tesla said that it was, "[a] magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king ... its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists".
4. Having significantly discredited the impossibility of faster than light movement I would like to revisit my sources which say for certain that Sephiroth can travel faster than the speed of light. My second source on him states, "and speed faster than the speed of sound and light." My fourth source also states, "vanishing in flashes of light to places unknown."
5. And finally on this point about Sephiroth. If anyone remembers the final boss battle with Sephiroth in FF7 he uses Super Nova. A move which destroys the better part of the solar system in a few seconds. Thus he can easily do moves that travel faster than the speed of light.

Which brings me to the second part of my opponents argument about how this would be stopping time.
1. Not necessarily. Look above, to particles that already move faster than the speed of light and other possibilities.
2. Additionally there is absolutely no rule about STOPPING time there is only a rule about TRAVELING through time.
3. But finally. Even if for some reason you believe everything my opponent says about how Sephiroth and Sentry can't go faster than the speed of light, you can always regulate them to just under the speed of light. This of course would still mean that they end up destroying team bleach.

Which brings me to team bleach. First off we need to evaluate exactly what a flash step is.
1. The one source I've even been able to find on how fast flash steps are says is a forum. The members argue for different speeds here are the results:
>>"I'd say a around 50km/h"
>>"Well, it is pretty fast for sure. But if you can appear on top of a 5 story high building from the ground in one second... let's see... that's about 60 feet per second... so about 41 mph."
>>"that's 66 km / h"
>>"flash = light"
>>"Goddess of flash/Shihouin Yoruichi's Shunpo is as fast as a light... " this source goes on to say that everyone else is therefor slower, for example, "The speed of captain level Shinigami is around 150.000.000 km/s..."
>>"More then 100km/h"
>>"I think that Flash Steps are just under the speed of sound, 340.29m/s meters per second."
http://www.bleachanime.org...

There isn't much consensus among these lovers of bleach. However they do mostly agree on one thing. Flash steps are either the speed of light or slower. I'd additionally extend that analysis that everyone is slower than the goddess of flash and thus is slower than the speed of light. Considering my opponent isn't using the goddess of flash, his characters are all at MOST slightly slower than the speed of light.

Which brings us to the question. Why will team bleach lose? Specifically, because of the trap my opponent has walked into. He argues that Sentry must inject himself with a Serum which will take time. I have a few main reasons why this completely destroys my opponents case:
1. This means, and is stated in the rules, that both of our teams did not have any prep time before the battle began. Which means that sentry did not have prep time in order to inject himself with his Serum, on the contrary he was imported to the battlefield in his normal state.
2. My opponents entire defense hinges off of one sole point, that being, "It [The Sharigan] allows him[Kakashi] to see his enemy moving no matter how fast they are and it gives him the ability to counter it." He then uses Kakashi's Sharigan to see Sephiroth coming and minimize him to a point. Pretty easy argument to make, so whats the problem?
3. The problem is from my opponents own source on Kakashi, it states, "Because the Sharingan only naturally occurs in those of Uchiha lineage, and because his is always active, Kakashi depletes his energy quickly when using it and so must cover it with his headband during his daily activities." In other words, during daily activities Kakashi always has his Sharigan covered and cannot use it. If you look at my opponents source you can see a picture of how Kakashi normally looks with his eye band over his Kakashi eye.
4. So what's this mean? Much like Sentry who must take the vile, Kakashi is going to have to take his eye band off to use his Sharigan. Up until the point Kakashi takes his eye band off he cannot use Sharigan and therefor cannot detect super fast movement. Ultimately this means three things:

Zero Time:
========
1. Kakashi starts to think about removing his eye band in case he needs to see super fast people.
2. Sentry starts to think about injecting himself with Serum in case he needs to fight.
3. Sephiroth moves faster than the speed of light. This allows sephiroth to, before a milisecond is up, reach and slay the entirety of team Con. They cannot see him, they cannot detect him, and they cannot stop his sword from viciously lopping their heads off.

This of course also means that the "A few seconds" strategy will be different.

A few seconds
==========
1. Sentry injects himself with Serum thereby gaining his powers.
2. Sentry does not move to find team Con. If Sephiroth had not returned by the time he finished injecting the serum then something must have gone extremely diabolically wrong. Sentry is, after all, a genius.
3. Black Alice glances at Sentry and takes his powers. This allows her the ability to travel faster than the speed of light and to hear things coming.
4. The plan commences as normal. The four characters head towards a building (frost turned into diamond form).
5. The tweak is simple. If for some reason Sephiroth failed (basically impossible) then Black Alice will be the only one to see Kakashi coming. Seeing him heading her way she will borrow Kakashi's powers leaving him powerless and instantaneously returning Sentry's powers to him.
6. Black Alice will then proceed to use kumai thereby condensing team bleach(excluding Kakashi) into a point.
7. In the meantime Emma Frost will mind control the now powerless Kakashi.
8. The Sentry and Vash will simply be there for protection.
9. If house or meta night bother showing up they will stand no match for the five characters.

Ultimate conclusion: Sephiroth 99% chance of killing the entire Con team. Otherwise Kakashi is taken unawares by a power swap which leaves him at the short end of a now very powerful stick. Team bleach is condensed into a point while meta night runs away probably crying from fear.
acer

Con

You are right, it does feel great when your opponent falls into your traps.

First let me clarify again why my opponent cannot move faster than the speed of light.

" First off it's not true. Things can move faster than the speed of light. For instance Tachyon particles are believed to move faster. http://en.wikipedia.org...... ."
1. From my opponents source, it states that "tachyon particles are too unstable to be treated as existent". http://en.wikipedia.org...
2. And even if it could travel faster than the speed of light, without traveling through time, it is only a subatomic particle. My opponents creatures are made out of whole atoms and therefore cannot exceed the speed of light.

" Additionally many scientists argue things such as the Alcubierre drive and traversable wormholes would both enable faster than light movement without time stops. http://en.wikipedia.org...;
1. In my opponents source it states that this is only possible my manipulating spacetime.
"FTL is the hypothesis that unusually distorted regions of spacetime might permit matter to reach distant locations faster than what it would take light in the "normal" route (though still moving subliminally through the distorted region)"
http://en.wikipedia.org...

3. "Next on this point I would argue that your analysis comes directly from Einstein's theory of relatively. There have been a plethora of scientists (some who I'd argue were greater) who criticized Einstein's theory (yes theory) of relativity."
All my opponents sources against my argument also come from this theory. Also, Einstein's theory has been proved many times over. http://www.mahalo.com...

Therefore it still stands that objects that have mass in the normal spacetime of New York cannot travel faster than the speed of light

"Which brings me to the second part of my opponents argument about how this would be stopping time."
1. I never said that this would be stopping time. I said that it is traveling through time.

"But finally. Even if for some reason you believe everything my opponent says about how Sephiroth and Sentry can't go faster than the speed of light, you can always regulate them to just under the speed of light. This of course would still mean that they end up destroying team bleach."
1. Utilizing the flash step, my team could easily evade my opponent.
However, my opponent does not seem to know what a flash step really is.
So let me clarify it for him, using information from his own source and my knowledge from watching the show.

"Flash steps seems more like skipping distances , rather than travelling them, the more control you have over the reiatsu the longer and faster the flash step would become. I wouldn't agree with the speed though. Its more like sudden appearance and disappearance and then again reappearing at a place.
because within one second they appear at a place and then disappear and again appear at a further distance, if you took the differential of this distance/time ratio then it will tend to infinity (sorry to bore you with the math here ) because a X amount of distance is covered in an extremely short period of time."
http://www.bleachanime.org...

A flash step is called a flash step because it is a flash(light-speed) moment. Also, the Goddess of flash is called that because she can cover the most distance with one and she has developed several techniques that utilize the move.

"My opponents entire defense hinges off of one sole point, that being, "It [The Sharigan] allows him[Kakashi] to see his enemy moving no matter how fast they are and it gives him the ability to counter it." He then uses Kakashi's Sharigan to see Sephiroth coming and minimize him to a point. Pretty easy argument to make, so what's the problem?
The problem is ... during daily activities Kakashi always has his Sharigan covered and cannot use it. Much like Sentry who must take the vile, Kakashi is going to have to take his eye band off to use his Sharigan. Up until the point Kakashi takes his eye band off he cannot use Sharigan and therefor cannot detect super fast movement. "

Now to show you my very elegant trap:
Having no prep time at all is ok for my team, but catastrophic for yours.
If the characters are imported in their normal state into the battlefield and the fight starts immediately, when do the team leaders tell their team what to do? If they suddenly just appear, how do they know who to fight? No prep time means no instructions on their missions. So as far as they know, they are each others enemies. Sephiroth is a villain. Sentry is a hero. So, without any instructions as to what to do, Sephiroth will begin fighting Sentry. Not only that, the characters are not told of the rules. So how do we know that they will follow them?

That means of course that our team members have to be at least told their objective. Common sense tells us that we have to be able to communicate with our team before the battle actually begins. Therefore my plan is simple. I can tell Kakashi to take his headband off before he fights. So then, as my opponent conceded "[Kakashi] uses [his] Sharigan to see Sephiroth coming and minimizes him to a point".

However, if that is not possible I can always use the following:
Kakashi is not the only one that can detect super fast moment. My bleach characters have to constantly fight characters who can use flash steps and other similar light speed attacks. The only way they can even survive is by being able to see such moment. It is like the sharingan's ability to detect super-fast moment, however, all characters have that potential. Therefore, they will be able to detect Sephiroth's moments and stop him before he attacks anyone. Kakashi having realized that he needs his sharingan will take of his headband and use his kumai to condense Sephiroth into a single point. Even without Kakashi, Sephiroth will be against two expert swordsmen who could easily defeat him. Sephiroth might have really powerful attacks, but he could not use his attacks because of the nature of the battlefield being indestructible. Also, his Supernova attack consists of him leaving Earth, automatically disqualifying him from the tournament. Not only that, sephiroth only has one really long blade. Being in an indestructible NYC with pretty small roads, his sword is not very useful. Byakuya on the other hand can divide his sword into millions of pieces, surround Sephiroth and instantly kill him. Sephiroth does not have a 99% chance of winning, he has a 99.9999% chance of being either condensed into a point or being sliced by millions of swords.

Now, I know that everyone has been wondering why I would pick Gregory House of all people. Now I will tell you how he is my weapon of mass destruction.
1. He has a vast knowledge of infectious diseases (http://en.wikipedia.org...) 2. He uses this knowledge to develop a toxin that, when breathed in, would cause instant paralysis. 3. He would also develop an antidote which he gives to the rest of my team. 4. He would then give this toxin to Meta knight. 5. Meta knight would use his super massive ship to spread the poison across all of New York. Therefore, no matter where my opponents are, they will breathe this poison and will immediately be rendered unusable.

If somehow House's toxins fail I always have my bleach characters. Instead of sending Kakashi, I will send a clone. Alice will try to steal the clones power and therefore lose her ability to sense things coming (Clones have no power). Then the real Kakashi will follow and use Kumai and condense my opponents team into a point.
l could also send Byakuya, covered in a shell made of his swords, to go slice my opponents team.

And so on...As you can see, there are many ways for my team to easily obliterate my opponent.

Conclusion: Team Pro annihilated
Debate Round No. 2
Yraelz

Pro

I think there's a few vast misunderstandings happening in this debate round. I hope to shed some light on those.

Let's begin with the speed of light argumentation. Let me preface this argument by explaining exactly what my opponent has to do. He must prove without a doubt that faster than light travel is impossible. I provide sources stating that sephiroth can move faster than light, and I will provide a movie clip in a moment that shows him doing it. This means that we have proof of Sephiroth indeed moving much quicker than light. In order to disprove this only option my opponent has is to prove that there is not possible way that Sephiroth could ever travel faster than light. The bottom line is that my opponent just can't do this. I have far too much evidence discrediting his ideas of 'no way to move faster than light'.

Additionally, since I'm the one with evidence of sephiroth moving faster than light, I don't even have to explain how he does it. I can literally show you that he does it, via video () and evidence. As long as there is a possibility that what you see in this videos and evidence is possible then I have won this section of the debate. I've already shown sephiroth can move faster than light, my opponent must prove that it is impossible.

First my opponent uses my own source to argue that Tachyon particles are too unstable to be treated as existent. My intent with this argument was never to prove that Tachyons do exist. Rather I'm simply casting doubt on the current system. My source does so nicely when it states, "no experimental evidence for or against the existence of tachyon particles has been found". Additionally providing they could exist there is nothing to say that Sephiroth cannot shift into Tachyon particles.

Secondly my opponent argues that wormholes and the Alcubierre drive both manipulate space time. In other words my opponent has conceded this entire contention to me. I agree, they do manipulate space time. The definition of space time: is any mathematical model that combines space and time into a single continuum. My opponent makes a direly fatal error when he equates space time manipulation with time travel. They are NOT the same thing. Time travel is a form of space time manipulation but not all space time manipulation is time travel. For instance, a wormhole could pop someone out a billion miles away at the very moment they left. This doesn't mean they time traveled, just that they traveled very quickly. Thus my opponent has conceded that there are ways to travel faster than the speed of light that do not require time travel.

Third and finally my opponent has argued that the theory of relativity is proven. I don't think this in any way negates my argumentation. All I'm saying is that it doesn't apply to every situation and that there are exceptions to the theory. But additionally, even if my opponent were to win this point I'd still win on the last two points. Especially considering that traversable wormholes are considered valid solutions in general relativity. But I seriously doubt I'm going to lose this point anyways. I implore everyone to read the page on the Alcubierre drive. It is one such plausible instance in which the theory of relativity does not apply. Specifically the page states, "conventional relativistic effects such as time dilation do not apply in the way they would in the case of a ship moving at high velocity through flat spacetime" http://en.wikipedia.org...

Uh oh.

But let's pretend for a second that you as a judge didn't buy all of my analysis on faster than light movement. This still leaves my opponent devastated. He argues that flash steps are going to save him. This is a problem....
1. My opponent looks at the forum and picks the quickest possible movement for the flash step as his position. This doesn't make a great deal of sense when we consider the entire two pages of the forum.
>>Six people in this thread argue that flash steps are somewhere slower than the speed of sound.
>>One person argues that they simply teleport, this is quote my opponent takes.
>>Two people argue that it's the speed of light, however they say that only the goddess of flash can move that fast. If they can indeed move at the speed of light then this analysis would be true because the goddess of flash is faster than everyone. Thus everyone is slower than her and no one but her can be the speed of light. Here you can see her beating others:

With all of this evidence under consideration, it is most likely that a flash step is slower than the speed of sound. However I can definitely prove that a flash step is not instant teleportation. If you look back to the forum you will notice that someone argues against teleportation. Their analysis is that the bleach characters can make attacks while flash stepping. Thus they could not have instantly teleported and made an attack somewhere in between.

Additionally my opponent has a final fatal problem. Look again to the source that I have provided. The problem is that the bleach characters cannot react to characters doing a flash step. They only begin to react when they see the other character reappear after a flash step. They can only guess where the flash step will take the other character. The problem you ask? Sephiroth, if you believe that he goes the speed of light only, will always be moving as fast as the goddess of flash when she is using flash steps. Meaning no one will ever see him or be able to react to him. Additionally since no one is as fast as the goddess of flash, then no one is as fast as Sephiroth. Meaning, even if they could see him, he would still destroy them. There is a difference between being able to see someone and reacting to someone. I can see a train coming if I'm tied to a track, but that doesn't mean I can react. Even if my opponents characters could see Sephiroth coming they could not react.

Time to examine the second misunderstanding.

My opponent argues that he must have told his team what to do. Thus Kakashi would take his eye band off at the beginning..... I think my opponent should re-read the rules: http://www.debate.org...

"6. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader, unless subjected to some form of mind control by the opposing team. For example, though Superman and Lex Luthor are enemies, they could still be on the same team."

"7. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team."

My opponent drastically misunderstands what a team leader is. The team leader does not participate in this fight. The team leader argues why their team would win, and what likely strategies their team would employ. The team leader DOES NOT order their team to do things. That would be pointless because then my opponent would just read my section of the debate and then order his team (instantaneously) to not do moves that would fall into traps my team would create. Team leaders only argue for their team winning, they do not order their team.

Thus, Kakashi never takes his eyeband off, and his team gets owned.

Next, my opponent has already argued that Kakashi would come to fight Black Alice, not his clones. I'm holding him to the first statement. Kakashi wouldn't suddenly decide to do something differently because there was one less person killing him. Kakashi's powers would be stolen if he managed to avoid sephiroth. Additionally black alice gives powers back at her own will. She doesn't have to abandon Sentry powers because she suddenly absorbed a clone.

Finally, on house. First off, building a toxin would take forever. Secondly, house would be dead before he even moved to do so and Sentry would destroy the shi
acer

Con

First let me again clarify my argument. I never said faster than light speed is not possible. It could be possible to go faster than the speed of light, howver, to do so, one must time travel, which is ofcourse illegal in this tournament. Therefore, Sephiroth can travel faster than the speed of light, as proven by the video, however, he cannot do so in this tournament.

"First my opponent uses my own source to argue that Tachyon particles are too unstable to be treated as existent. My intent with this argument was never to prove that Tachyons do exist."
Actually, it was your intent to prove they exist. If they don't exist, then your argument has no value. And, as I said before, tachyon particles are subatomic, Sephiroth, made of whole atoms cannot shift into Tachyon particles as my opponent claims. And, even if he does, it would be completely pointless. Sure he may be able to move at the speed of light, but his body mass would be nothing and therefore he could not do anything to my team.

But, let us not waste anymore time on this argument as the following will make it quite pointless.

1. My opponent has conceded that the team members are never ordered to do anything.
(The next few are all just different options. They could happen individually or all at once, either way sephiroth dies.)
2-1. Sephiroth was never ordered to move at the speed of light and so it would take some time for him to realize that he must move and attack the enemy. In that couple of seconds, Kakashi looks around and realizes that he is not facing his opponents. (Since my opponent and I never agreed to the starting location, we start at the opposite ends of NY). He, being a genius (IQ over 200), would immediately know to take off his headband and use his sharingan. And as my opponent conceded, Kakashi would be able to see Sephiroth coming and minimize him to a point.
2-2. Even if Sephiroth began to move as soon as the battle started, how does he know where to go? The truth is he doesn't. He is from an old time period, how does he know his way around NYC. Also, the buildings are indestructable, meaning he can't go barging through, he has to go through the streets. To find my team, it would take a couple of seconds in which Kakashi would have already activated his sharingan.

2-3. Though it is true that Sephiroth can move as fast as the speed of light, he rarely he uses this ability and almost never in battle(except in SuperNova). Think about it. If he can move so fast, then he could defeat all his enemies in less than a second. So why doesn't he? How does he lose to Cloud? As shown in the video clip above of Sephiroth fighting Cloud, Sephiroth never once moves faster than the normal eye can see. Even if he can move faster and kill his enemies instantly, he never does, and since the team leader can never order him to do so, he never will go that fast.
2-4. http://www.gamespot.com...
-As shown in this forum, sephiroth's major weakness is arrogance http://www.gamespot.com.... He will always think his opponents inferior and therefore not try his hardest against them. Therefore, before he fights his enemies, he will reveal himself to them. (If you watched any of his battles, you will know that this is true.) When he reveals himself, all Kakashi has to do is use his sharingan and sephiroth is instantly defeated.

Additionaly, my opponent has dastrically misunderstood the speed of flash step. He uses sources from a forum, which is a place of opinion, not very factual. He does, however, agree to the fact that the goddess of flash moves at the speed of light. Byakuya, having been trained by her, and having been training for a hundred years, can move almost as fast as her( as seen in their fight); so lets put this speed as 290,000 km/s. Ichigo, as seen in the fight against byakuya, can move much faster than him (7:05) .

So lets put his speed as 299,000 km/s. This, however, is not his fastest. After Hollowfieng, he can go almost twice as fast. Since, speed faster than light is not possible, it is safe to say that his speed is the speed of light (or very close to it).

However, even if you did not believe me, you can at least tell from the video that their flash steps move faster than the eye can see. This ofcourse means that they can move faster than sephiroth in a battle and overwhelm him. Sephiroth can barely keep up with Cloud, how could he ever hope to win against two bleach characters.

"The problem is that the bleach characters cannot react to characters doing a flash step. They only begin to react when they see the other character reappear after a flash step. They can only guess where the flash step will take the other character."
Not true. If you saw the video of Ichigo and Byakuya fighting, then you can see that they are both using flash steps and are able to react to each others movements.

Now let me outline what really happens:

0 seconds:
1. Nothing happens because Sephiroth must first think about moving before he can actually move.

Couple Seconds:
1. Sephiroth begins to move and tries to navigate NY and find my team.
At the same time, Kakashi realizes he must use his sharingan and takes of his headband.
2. Sephiroth finds my team and almost instantly gets squished by Kakashi's Kumai.
3. If somehow he fails, my bleach characters will begin to fight Sephiroth and pwn him simply because they can move faster than his eye can see.
4. Sentry thinks about taking his serum and takes it.

Now, my opponent has made a very big misunderstanding. No matter how Sephiroth is destroyed, it all would take less than a minute. His other characters have not much time to do anything. Before Sentry can gain his powers or even before the rest of the team can go hide in a building. My bleach characters and Kakashi would have found and killed all the remaining people.

But, lets say that that doesn't happen and his team is successful at hiding. Even still my team would destroy them.

"I'm holding him to the first statement. Kakashi wouldn't suddenly decide to do something differently because there was one less person killing him."
Not true. As I stated before, Kakashi is a genius, he would send his search hounds before anything. Once he knows the opponents skill he would come up with a strategy to defeat it. He could simply send his clones and distract Black Alice. Or Metaknigt could use his cape to transport himself behind Alice and kill her.

"Finally, on house. First off, building a toxin would take forever. Secondly, house would be dead before he even moved to do so and Sentry would destroy the shi"
I think he meant ship. Anyway, as soon as Sentry tries to exit the building, my characters would instantly kill him.

As you can see, once Sephiroth is defeated (99.9% chance of it happening), my opponent has no chance of victory. If he believes so, I will completely destroy him in the next round.
Debate Round No. 3
Yraelz

Pro

First and foremost, let me thank my opponent for this great debate. I've enjoyed it rather thoroughly. Having said this I'd like to begin with what is not fair for my opponent to do in his final round.

There should be no new responses in his speech. He's had four rounds to think up good ideas. Now we're debating the previously established ideas and checking them for merit. Any new responses by my esteemed opponent are patently unfair as they give me to chance to respond. New arguments should always be disallowed on this premise. The exception being if I make a new argument.

Thus, there are some things which my opponent has never bother to contradict and thereby has lost his opportunity to do. Let's examine those things now.

1. The most important is going to be the wormhole and Alcubierre drive concessions. My opponent argues in his last round that Sephiroth cannot turn into Tachyon particles. I concede this point. However, I have argued two keys things which my opponent has conceded in turn. First, I made the argument that the Alcubierre drive and wormholes manipulate space time. Secondly I argued that manipulating space time and time travel are two separate things. It is completely possible for Sephiroth to jump a greater distance than that traveled by light, using Alcubierre drive, and still exist in the same time stream. In essence Sephiroth would be exactly where he wanted to be the moment he thought it, no time travel involved. Keep in mind this is not a new argument by myself. But any other response, other than concession to this, would be a new one.

Now let me address my opponents new arguments.

2-1. (The sharigan strat) There are a few problems with this new strategy. Namely, considering that it has been conceded that Sephiroth moves faster than light, Kakashi won't be able to even hit him with an attack. Nevermind condense him to a point. Secondly the rules say that the team members are completely loyal to their team leader. In other words the team members are completely loyal to the cause attempting to be achieved by the team leader, victory. Thus Sephiroth and every other character, as stipulated by the rules, would try as hard as possible. Sephiroth would reach Kakashi before Kakashi took the head band off.

2-2. (Where will Sephiroth go?). The truth is, it doesn't matter. It takes light 7 minutes to reach here from the sun (over 200,000 miles per second). Traveling faster than light, it will take Sephiroth less than a millisecond to cover the entirety of New York city.

2-3. (Sephiroth doesn't normally move fast). Once again, he's completely loyal to me and thereby victory. He'll try his hardest. He loses to cloud in FF7 because he is holding back the entire force of holy while fighting cloud, a major distraction. Additionally, in that video clip, Sephiroth just vanishes at the end, possibly moving faster than light. Finally, the kingdom hearts series often portrays faster than light movement in a way which normal people can see, thus making it look slower. Check out the clip I posted. At 4:27 Sora and Rikku are surrounded by lasers. Lasers move at the speed of light as they are just condensed light. Yet Sora and Rikku move faster in order to stop the lasers. It should be noted that in this same game Sephiroth is a more difficult threat than the laser wielding Xemnas. Implying that Sephiroth does indeed move faster than the speed of light in the fight with him.

2-4. (Sephiroth reveals himself.) Nope, not true at all. Sephiroth will not reveal himself when something is truly important to him. Example? Look the the second clip I post. In this video Aerith is attempting to release Holy, a spell which will combat Sephiroth's plan. Sephiroth, knowing this is important does not show himself. Instead he ruthlessly slaughters her. Sephiroth is completely loyal to me, thus the cause to him is important. Additionally, extend my argument about how Sephiroth can't be hit by the Sharigan if he moves faster than light.

5. (Flash Steps). First, I never agree the goddess of flash can move the speed of light. My source clearly has six people arguing that flash steps are slower than sound and one saying as fast as light. 6 > 1. Conceded point by my opponent. Next, my source is from a forum yes, but it's better than no source(my opponent). Additionally my opponent's Sephiroth arrogance source is also from a forum. Fail. Next, Ichigo isn't faster than Byakuya, watch the last stage of their fight. Byakuya easily moves faster than Ichigo. . Next, re-watch my opponents own source. Ichigo can only even begin to compete with Byakuya if he uses his Bankai, which, as the video shows, takes him nearly two minutes to do. Next, Byakuya is far less than half as fast as the goddes of flash. She lands on his arm without him noticing! Even if someone was twice as fast as me they still couldn't land on my arm if I was fighting them. The point is this: the bleach characters probably move slower than sound and are nowhere near the speed of light even if the goddess of flash was. Sephiroth and Sentry both can run laps around them without them even noticing.

6. (Bleach characters can react to people using flash steps.) Aside from the problem of flash not being anywhere near as fast as Sephiroth or Sentry.... This just isn't true. Watch the video I posted, the second part of the fight which my opponent posted. It shows that Byakuya doesn't even see Ichigo when Ichigo attacks the first time. Finally on this point, review the goddes of flash video. She jumps on Byakuya's arm before he notices, thus people moving at the speed of flash can't be seen.

7. Sentry's Serum only takes a few seconds to inject. Thus he has his powers after a few seconds. Not minutes. If team bleach somehow beat sephiroth (0% chance) then they would have another character who can move faster than light to deal with. The problem being that that character is Black Alice who absorbed Sentry's powers. Reviewing the source on Black Alice, she can absorb multiple person's powers at once. Meaning she can keep her powers while absorbing Clone Kakashi's until she gets to the real one. She only has to give powers back to Sentry when she wants to. This is the second argument which my opponent has never addressed and thereby conceded. Finally, I think my opponent should be held the the original argument about Kakashi, namely: he comes himself and doesn't send clones. No matter the case though, Black Alice is far quicker than Kakashi could hope to be, him, and his clones would be absorbed. Then Sentry would regain his powers and this fight would quickly end in the defeat of team Con.

8. Finally it should be noted that Sephiroth and Sentry can both see things much faster than the speed of light. In my clip, Sephiroth is seen navigating the Galaxy at quicker than the speed of light. Thus he can maneuver and see things at that speed. Additionally Sephiroth in the Kingdom hearts series (KH2) fights Sora who can move faster than the speed of light. In fact, come to think of it, in that battle Sephiroth moves faster than Sora can see. But the point is that Sephiroth can see things faster than the speed of light. Finally reviewing my Sentry source it says he can easily evade or catch bullets and he navigated to the sun and back faster than the speed of light. The point is, my characters can see the bleach characters when they flash step. But the bleach characters not only cannot see them but will never be able to keep up.

Team Con is obliterated.
acer

Con

I would also like to thank my opponent for a very nice debate. It really has been fun.

First, I would like to clarify what my opponent said in round 2. "It [The Sharigan] allows him[Kakashi] to see his enemy moving no matter how fast they are and it gives him the ability to counter it."
So clearly, my opponent has conceded the fact that Kakashi can see and counter Sephiroth.

Also, my opponent states that, just because the team members are loyal to the team leader, they are going to try their hardest for the leaders cause. This is not true. Nowhere in the rules does it state that the members have to try their hardest. They will try, of course, but not their utmost hardest. For example, a football team. The coach is the team leader and his cause is to win the game. The players are also going to try to win, but they are not going to go against their personality.

Even if the team members are completely loyal to the cause, and they try their hardest, Kakashi will too. If he knows that he can't hold back in this fight, he would have prepared himself to fight at full power (headband off), from the very begining. And since my opponent already conceded the point that Kakashi can see and counter enemy no matter how fast he is moving, kakashi will succeed in squishing Sephiroth to a point. (PS, this is not a new argument, it states my opponents argument of fighting at full power.)

In either case, there is no chance for Sephiroth to win.

Also, my opponents seems to think that flash steps are slower than the speed of sound, but that is incorrect. As seen in the following clip, Ichigo appears to be in many different places at once, something he cannot do if he is only moving at the speed of sound (4:38). And about releasing bankai. He doesn't try to use it in the begining of the fight, that is why it takes him so long. He later masters it and cannot almost release it instantaneosly. He can also hollowfy very quickly. In the series, he has to do this many times to block opponent attacks (2:30).

And, as I already established, Kakashi is a genius and will send his clones instead of him. When he sees alice, who has absorved sentry's power, come out to try and capture all the clones, he will use kumai on her and squish her to a point. My opponent never rebutted the point sentry or (Black Alice with his powers) would be killed if they tried to exit the building.

I would also like to point out that my opponent never said anything against Metaknight appearing behind alice and killing her. And, since this is the last round, there is no other otpion but for her to die.

Once sentry and his powers are destroyed, there is nothing my opponent can do. Emma Frost, who is now in her diamond form will be destroyed by Byakaya or Kakashi, as I stated in round one. This leaves poor Vash, who now has no chance for survival. As I stated in earlier rounds, kakashi will use kumai and squish Vash to a point.

True, undeniable outcome: Team Pro annihilated, pwned, obliterated, squished to points, and overall destroyed.

Vote Con
Debate Round No. 4
67 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Looks like it. Deadline for the next round won't start till Thursday of next week probably on the basis of labor day weekend.
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
Nice round Acer. Good match.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
So, I am against Yraelz now?
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
JUDGE: pcmbrown

Con: Tie
S&G: Tie
Arg.: Pro. Ultimately, the debate came down to the Sepiroth argument, which Pro won, thereby winning the round.
Source: Pro. Pro presented several relevant sources to back his claims. Con's sourcing was not as prolific.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
JUDGE: FEVERISH

Conduct: Tied. Both debaters argued in the comments section. -
S&G: Tied. Minor mistakes from both.

Arguments: Con. This battle was more about arguments than strategies, the main strategy of both sides was speed. Con suggested faster than light movement would be time travel, which I was inclined to agree with. Pro responded by focusing on the actual possibility of faster than light travel and his arguments for that and for whether it is time travel (wormholes etc.) were unconvincing. I felt Pro made an unnecessary concession in agreeing that Sentry would have to inject his serum at the beginning of the battle, which severely limited this extremely powerful character. Con's strategy of having House develop a toxin would take far too long to be practical without prep time. Overall it was close but Con made slightly more direct and convincing arguments.

Sources: Tied. Both made good use of sources and the battle was too close to award any extra points from this category.

gjtsbumg
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
JUDGE: PATSOX

Conduct: Tie. I see no reason why it shouldn't be.

Spelling and grammar: Meh, tie. Both of them had mistakes, but nothing drastic. Certainly nothing worth penalizing one of them.

Arguments: Pro. Some of con's arguments were rather wishy-washy (I can elaborate if anyone wants me to), and pro's did a good job of addressing all the key points. Con even ended up conceding multiple points of significance to pro, which told me that pro did a better job of arguing. If con had a rebuttal to those points, then he would've given it...not just avoided it.

Sources were pretty close; however, in my paradigm, I said if sources were essentially equal, then I'd just give these points to whoever had the better arguments, which is pro.

So yeah, my vote is obviously for team pro.
Posted by acer 7 years ago
acer
Rougeant is the other judge, I think.
Posted by feverish 7 years ago
feverish
I PM'd my decision to LM several says ago but I don't know who else is judging.
Posted by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
Lol, I'm going to respectfully decline to offer to continue debating in the comments. Logical, who are judges and how soon can we expect a disclosure?
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
Though couldn't he just use materia to cast scan?
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by Yraelz 7 years ago
Yraelz
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patsox834
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acer
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