The Instigator
darris321
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
imabench
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Logic is a Meaningless Concept if God Can Act Outside of it.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
darris321
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/24/2011 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,734 times Debate No: 18959
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (2)

 

darris321

Pro

Round 1 is acceptance.
I will be arguing that logic requires that all things are bound by it or it is a meaningless concept.
I will conclude that this means God cannot do a paradox while logic exists.
In this way, I carry the burden of proof.

My opponent will argue that logic is NOT irrelevant if God can ignore it.

I look forward to this debate and wish luck to my competitor.
imabench

Con

I accept this debate (which i this round is all i can do)

I will be arguing how logic is not a useless concept if it's laws do not apply to God :)
Debate Round No. 1
darris321

Pro

The most basic logical statement, 1=1 is evidence that logic must be absolute.
If 1=1 is only true so long as God makes 1, 1, then it is not a true statement.
However, it must be a true statement, or else 1=~1 (not 1) which is a self refuting statement.
The only possible truth to 1=1 comes from the fact that definitive mathematical logic must always be true 100% of the time.

The argument that God operates outside logic is nonsensical. One oft used argument is "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot lift it". Those who say that God can operate outside of logic say that "God can make a rock so big that he cannot lift it, and then proceed to lift it because he operates outside of logic". However, this violates sense. If he proceeds to lift it, then he can lift it, and he did not make a rock that he cannot lift, this isn't to say that He can't, but to say that He did not, in this scenario.

Our entire understanding of the universe comes from the fact that logic is absolute. 1+1=2, 1+1 =/= 3. If 1+1=3, then 1 =/= 1 because 2(1)=2 not 3. If just one piece of mathematics is false, ALL of mathematics is false. Algebra is universally true or it is not true at all. Algebra is a method of expressing logic.

Every idea ever deduced. Every thought ever manifested in logic. Everything of that nature would be false if God has the ability to undermine logic.
If God created logic, God has bound Himself by a machine that will not release Him.


If logic is false, there is no such thing as truth.

Using logic we can come to the conclusion that 1+1=2. Without logic, there's no way to tell what 1+1 is. 1+1 could be equal to literally anything within or without numbers and it could be equal to nothing.
There is no way to tell.

It is for this reason that I believe that if God can undermine it, logic is useless.
I ask that the readers vote pro.
imabench

Con

Logic - The Normal systematic study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Logic was not created by God or the universe or some all knowing being. Logic was developed by humans long ago as a tool to make conclusions about mysteries using facts and knowledge we already have at hand.

There was a time when the world was flat was just plain logic,
there was a time when crazy people were crazy because demons were trapped in their heads was just logic,
there was a time when 13 colonies could not overthrow an empire was also logic
there was a time when atomic bombs could ignite our atmosphere and incinerate the earth and that was just logic.

Logic changes overtime as more facts about a matter are accumulated. We use logic to usually successfully find answers to questions we do not know. We do not know if these rules apply to God though because God is still a belief held by many.

Yes God can undermine Logic, but it is still far from useless just because God can live outside of it because God didnt create logic, humans did.

:)
Debate Round No. 2
darris321

Pro

This just deleted my entire argument. I am pretty upset at that. So, I'll write it again.

Logic was not created by man. Logic is not something which can be created, just like electricity or sight. It is, like my opponent provides in his/her definition, the formal study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning.
I ask the reader's to remember this definition while we pick apart the claims of the contender.

My opponent goes on to show four situations which he/she deems are examples of logic. They are absolutely not.
Let's look back at the definition: the formal study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning.

"There was a time when the world was flat was just plain logic,"
1. Popular belief does not fall under that definition. In fact, it was valid inference and correct reasoning that led to the discovery that the world was not flat by Euclid. Euclid used math to prove the world was a spheroid.

"there was a time when crazy people were crazy because demons were trapped in their heads was just logic,"2. Religious belief does not constitute logic.

"there was a time when 13 colonies could not overthrow an empire was also logic"
3. A. the 13 colonies did not overthrow an empire, they just successfully seceded. B. Predictionsalsodon't fall under that definition.

"there was a time when atomic bombs could ignite our atmosphere and incinerate the earth and that was just logic."
4. Possible outcomes do not fall under that definition.

My opponent has failed to understand what logic is despite having provided the definition himself.

Logic absolutely does not change over time.

All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Socrates is mortal.

It may be false that all men are mortal, but that's irrelevant. Provided that "all men are mortal", "Socrates is mortal" because "Socrates is a man".
A given set of premises will always yield the same conclusion if the logic is sound.

"We do not know if these rules apply to God though because God is still a belief held by many"
Not only is that irrelevant, it doesn't make sense. The fact that God is still a belief held by many keeps us from knowing whether or not God can circumvent logic?

I have shown that logic is not created by man. I have shown that God operating outside of logicnecessarily makes logic a useless concept. I have shown that my opponent has failed to understand the point despite providing the operating definition of "logic".

I urge the readers to vote pro and I look forward to my opponent's rebuttal.

imabench

Con

The debate is "Logic is meaningless if God can act outside of it" we are debating that If God can act outside logic then it is a useless concept.

The Pro claims that men did not invent logic. Men did not INVENT logic, we studied it and have learned to use it to solve problems. The Con claims that God was the one who invented Logic but that is just not true. Logic is the study of inference and reasoning, it is a CONCEPT. Math is also a concept but god didnt invent math.

The 4 things i listed were just examples of how logic changes over time because it is applied differently after more information is obtained and then used to make inferences.

As for God, there is no definite way to prove that he is bound to the concept of logic....... so if we cannot prove he is bound to it then it is quite possible that he can exist outside of the concept of logic.

Just because he can live outside it though, us humans cannot, so understanding and applying logic can be very useful and meaningful in problem solving.

I thank my opponent for the debate and i offer my condolences to him for having his argument accidentally deleted.... Ive had that happen and I feel your pain.

:D
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by darris321 6 years ago
darris321
can't be created**
damn. I hate seeing them too late.
Posted by darris321 6 years ago
darris321
I use God because people often say God is omnipotent and it isn't illogical because He can act outside of logic.
The root statement of the debate would be "Logic is meaningless if ANYONE can act outside of logic" because logic must be absolute or it means nothing.
Posted by darris321 6 years ago
darris321
I use God because people often say God is omnipotent and it isn't illogical because He can act outside of logic.
The root statement of the debate would be "Logic is meaningless if ANYONE can act outside of logic" because logic must be absolute or it means nothing.
Posted by dcarvajal1990 6 years ago
dcarvajal1990
can I have a definition of what you mean by god?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Double_R 6 years ago
Double_R
darris321imabenchTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Cons responsibility was to show that if God can exist outside of logic, then there is still meaning (or usefulness) for it, yet he never did this. His four examples were not of logic but rather examples of conclusions reached using logic. Meanwhile Pros argument shows that if God can exist outside logic then none of these conclusions can be trusted. None of the arguments made by Con overcame this.
Vote Placed by Kethen 6 years ago
Kethen
darris321imabenchTied
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Reasons for voting decision: This one is hard because...well you are both right. Con is right that God can act outside of it and Pro is right that Logic is useless. I am confused as to whether or not God can act outside of it matters. But God can doesn't mean he does and Con is right that Logic changes....you guys need to do this again and go more in depth... im still trying to figure out who won