The Instigator
patrick967
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

Logically, being gay should not be a sin

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/31/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 932 times Debate No: 61118
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (18)
Votes (2)

 

patrick967

Pro

I don't think that being gay should be a sin in Christianity. In this debate, I will hold the complete burden of proof, and the existence of the Christian god will be assumed correct.

Debate Setup:
Round 1- Acceptance/Opening Statements
Round 2- Arguments/Rebuttals
Round 3- Arguments/Rebuttals
Round 4- Final Rebuttals/Closing Statements
(Rebuttals may be made at any point)

Good luck to my opponent.
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

"Being gay" implies being an unrepentant sodomite. All sex outside of marriage is sin. No matter if homos get laws passed saying they can be married to the same sex, it is not marriage. Marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman to come together as one flesh. A man and a man can nevver be anything other than two men. A woman and a woman can never be anything other than two women. A man and a woman become one flesh in marriage. Homosexual acts are an abominable (Bible word) perversion of God's gift in abusing sexual pleasures. It always has been sin, always is sin, and always will be sin. If you don't like calling it sin, that's your problem. It's sin.

I'm not going to bother quoting the Bible passages from Romans and Leviticus that clearly point to homosexual acts as being abominations. God's Word is God's Word and you don't get to be the one who changes it to accomodate your or anybody else's sin.
Debate Round No. 1
patrick967

Pro

Thanks to my opponent for accepting this debate (and not rattling off Bible passages about homosexuality). First off, the Bible is fair game. It will be assumed completely true. I apologize for my earlier comment. If you don't know what I'm talking about, just keep reading.

According to the Bible, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and gave humans freewill.

freewill- the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion[1]

omnipotent- (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything[2]

omniscient- knowing everything[3]

Now, when God created man, he would've known that there would be gay people, because he's omniscient. He did nothing with his unlimited power to stop it, and then he gave humans freewill. Logically, his creations should've been able to build their civilizations without any worry of their god punishing them, but then God goes and makes being gay a sin, even though beforehand he knew there'd be gay people and done nothing to stop it.

Sources:
[1]-https://www.google.com...
[2]-https://www.google.com...
[3]-https://www.google.com...
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

Knowing man would sin did not excuse man from the penalty of sin. That is why we die. You can't blame God for sin. You can try, but it won't change your guilt. Anybody who engages in sexual acts outside of marriage should be ashamed of themselves, and homosexual acts are particularily dirty. You will probably win this debate by blaming God for your sin or for other peoples sin and trying to use your existence as an excuse for your behaviour, but you can never justify yourself and you can never justify or excuse sin. Most people want to blame God for their sin by saying "God made me this way", and shirk responsibilty for their own behaviour, telling themselves they are only human and nobody is perfect and garbage like that in order to fool themselves into thinking sin is normal behaviour.

Logically, none of us should get one more breath of air because we all deserve to die now. Life is a gift from God. Excusing sin, excusing sodomy or women burning in their lust with each other is wicked. Pedophiles thing sex with kids should be ok, sodomites think butt buddies is good, whores think prostitution should not be a sin, Incestuous fathers think it should not be a sin to have sex with their daughters, and sodomites think they should not be told what they are doing is wrong.

Wicked. Nasty dirty stuff. This stuff makes my skin crawl to think about. I really don't even like talkign about it, but homos who are trying to deny their guilt and blame their feelings of shame on other people are always want to air their garbage publicly and try to force people like me to say it's ok so they don't feel too bad about the disgusting way they are abusing their bodies.
Debate Round No. 2
patrick967

Pro

But why does God care about what gays do? Why should we not just leave them alone and treat them like normal people? God shouldn't give a crap about what I do in my personal time. Again, freewill. It's not "freewill" if you're going to hell for being gay. It's called "freewill" because I can do what I want without worrying about punishment. Hell is punishment. Eternal punishment. If someone is gay, but they are the kindest person in the world (hypothetically) then why does that person go to hell? Because God doesn't like what they do with their life of "freewill" that he gave them? Why should a kind atheist go to hell when someone from the Westboro Baptist Church goes to heaven?

Why should I not get another breath of air? Because God gave me life? That's extremely stupid. It's like a father saying,
"Hi son, I'm going to have to kill you now because I helped create you." It makes no sense.

"Freewill" is a bunch of crap, we have sin, so we don't have freewill. God had the power to stop people being gay when he created Adam. He didn't, so why should that count against us?
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con



Giving your body to another person without a lifelong commitment legally and publicly established is selling yourself short and/or taking advantage of the other person for momentary gratification. Your body is yours forever. If you give your body to another person temporarily, they are getting your body for less than it is worth. This is why a person who goes to bed for sex with people they are not married to is often referred to as "cheap". A cheap whore is somebody who does not cost much to get sexual gratification out of. A whore monger is a person who hungrily takes what he can get out of a cheap person. A homosexual, male or female, cheapens the gift of sexuality even further by denying the purpose of God in creating opposite genders. Homosexuality and beastiality are at the bottoms of the barrel of toxic waste of immorality.
God cares what people do with their sexuality because He created it for the sole purpose of creating a lifelong bond between a man and a woman; a bond that would exclude feelings of being "loved and then left" which often leads disappointed lovers to suicide. a bond that would remain clean and pure and never allow pollution of sexually transmitted diseases to trouble the bodies and grieve the hearts and minds. People who truly behave normally in sexual expression will reserve that expression for nothing other than their spouse. God cares about what you do with your body because He wants what is best for you. If you think something other than what God wants is best for you, you are mistaken and God loves you, He cares what you do, He does not want you doing wrong. It is wrong to do things that degrade the goodness that God wants you to have. It is better to remain unmarried and completely celibate in all ways than to use your body to express sexual feelings with people you are not married to. Homosexuals are no more normal than pedophiles, beast-sex indulgers, necromancers, whore mongers, or prostitutes. Sexual behaviour outside of marriage is offensive to God because it is disrespectful of God's good intentions for us.

This answers the first two questions of my opponent in his previous argument::"But why does God care about what gays do? Why should we not just leave them alone and treat them like normal people? God shouldn't give a crap about what I do in my personal time."

Also, I must point out my opponents crudeness in referring to God's concerns as "give a crap". I seems my opponent thinks that if God cares for him, God's concern is "crap". I'm sure God finds my opponents implications here much more offensive than people who believe God's love is something to be appreciated.






Moving on to my opponents next assertions, and accusatory questions against God: " God shouldn't give a crap about what I do in my personal time. Again, freewill. It's not "freewill" if you're going to hell for being gay. It's called "freewill" because I can do what I want without worrying about punishment."

Again, my opponent crudely refers to God's concern as "giving a crap", and again my opponent displays total disregard for God's concerns. God cares about what you do in your personal time because it is time He gave you. God gives you time because He is good, and He cares about what you do with the time He gives you because the time is precious. The time is precious because it shows God is good in giving it to you. You are precious to God, because He created you and you illustrate His power, His glory, and His goodness in giving you life, speech, imagination, creativity, strength, and so on. Everything we have is because God gave it to us or because He gave us the power to get it. God gave us sexuality for one purpose, and that is to make a lifelong bond with another person of the opposite gender and nothing else. If we don't find anther person of the opposite gender suitable for marriage, God expects us to remain unmarried and totally celibate, reserving our bodies in honor of what God created them for. We were created for God's glory, showing He is good.
If a person goes to Hell, it is not simply because they are homosexual; it is because they are a sinner. We have all sinned against God, Anybody who can read this is beyond the age of innocence and is guilty or breaking God's law as He spelled it out in detail in The Ten Commandments. We all deserve to go to Hell because we have al turned against God in breaking His law and there is no other place for Him to put us after we have separated ourselves from God by violating His law which He made for our protection and for preserving beauty, harmony, and purity in His creation. Now God's law shows us that we are guilty and we need His mercy to be spared from eternal separation in the only place God has to confine sinners, Hell. We are sinners, and our sin burns against God like a fire, Our passion for our own life is like a burning fire, as sinners, no matter how good or nice we are, we are burning the candle at both ends and our time is running out. If we are steadfast in making our own laws and not honoring God's perfect law which He intended for perfect liberty, perfect harmony, perfect purity, perfect beauty, perfect pleasure and joy in being created by God and for His pleasure, then no matter how nice we are to other people, we are offensive to God. Our sin is like a fire that devours our life contrary to the perfection God intended to be preserved by His law. Our sin cries out for the fire of Hell. God gives us time, not wanting us to be lost in Hell forever. He loves us so much that He took on the form of a man, He came down from heaven as the Son of Man, the Son of God, God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, to die in our place to pay for our sins so that if we believe on Him; trust in Him, receive Him as our Saviour, we will be forgiven and not have to pay for our sins in the fire of Hell.

You can't blame God for the choices you make with the gifts and abilities He gave you. You will give account to God with how you used every moment of the time He gave you. There are different levels of punishment in Hell, and you will receive the punishment you deserve if you don't care about God's concerns for you and you use your time however you feel like using it to do whatever you feel like doing no matter what God's law says about it. If you use your freewill to murder, because that is what was in your heart to do, you can't blame God for giving you freedom to act out on your feelings of hatred. If you use your freewill to express yourself sexually with other than your opposite gender spouse, you can't blame God if you pick up AIDS or if you feel suicidal when your partner leaves you. You can't blame God if He rejects you and lets you go to Hell when you do not care what He says about your behaviour. Saying, "God, you let me have freewill so why can't I do whatever in the name of Hell that I want to do" will get you nowhere but into the place in the name of which you dare to blame God for your abuse of the freedom He gave you. The only way we don't get the Hell fire that we deserve for our sin against God is if we find His mercy. God's mercy toward is is found in that while we were sinners, Christ died in our place to pay for our sins so we can be pardoned from paying for our sins in Hell. Will you be pardoned from paying for your sins in Hell? Will you believe God or will you continue in disobedience against His perfect Law? Breaking God's law brings consequences, and you are responsible for your own actions. If you finalize your death insisting that your actions are God's responsibility because He gave you free will, the God will take the responsibility for you and the fire of Hell will burn against you the same as your pride burns against God. If you rake responsibility for your own actions and admit that you are a sinner against God, believe He died in your place to pay for your sin so He can forgive you in His resurrection, and call on God in the name of Jesus Christ to have mercy on you and save you from Hell, you will be saved. You won't be saved from Hell if you will not admit that your attitude is sinful against God and your violations of His law justify His rejecting you and leaving you to burn forever like garbage in the fire of Hell.



Moving further along in my opponents accusatory rhetorical statements and questions against God:


"Why should I not get another breath of air? Because God gave me life? That's extremely stupid. It's like a father saying,
"Hi son, I'm going to have to kill you now because I helped create you." It makes no sense.

Here, my opponent again denies his own responsibility and attempts to blame God for his death. We die because we have broken God's law. If we were perfect, if we had never broken God's law, we would never die. God gives life. Sin brings death. God created us and He wants us to be restored to life. We are condemned to die because of our sin. God pad for our sins with His own blood so that we can be pardoned for breaking His law and restored to eternal life. Our bodies of sin must be destroyed. If we believe on Jesus in His resurrection and receive Him as our Saviour, He becomes in us a new sinless nature, we become new creatures in Him, so that by Him we are born again and God will give us a new body like Jesus's resurrected body. without sin and fit for heaven. after our sin stricken bodies have been destroyed.
None of us should get another breath of air. We get another breath of air because God is giving us more time in this world for a purpose. He has a purpose for every moment of the time He gives us. What we do with that time is on us, We are responsible for our choices.

My opponent is insisting in his reasonings that God is unreasonable and makes no sense. God is trying to reason with my opponent to get him to see that He is being more than fair to give him another breath of air before letting him go his own way blaming God for his placement in Hell.

Out of characters, I will respond to the "Westboro" argument later.
Debate Round No. 3
patrick967

Pro

patrick967 forfeited this round.
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Con

I hope my opponent is still with us. I raelly would like for him to have eternal life.
Debate Round No. 4
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ZenoCitium 3 years ago
ZenoCitium
@missmedic: It seems like your understanding of faith is quite one dimensional. You are implying that there is a logical fallacy with something that doesn't require logic or proof. Faith plays different roles in our lives. It is not limited to spirituality as you seem to propose. We are not logical creatures.

It may be true that neither religion has provided enough evidence to become plausable but neither has the belief that God does not exist. As an atheist you are no closer to the truth than any theist, to think you are makes you a fool.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
It's far too common to see religious theists trying to defend their beliefs by relying on faith, claiming both that faith justifies their position and that their beliefs are based on faith. Skeptics and freethinkers are justified in regarding this as little more than a cop-out because faith isn't really any kind of standard that can be tested for reliability. Even if religious theists don't intend it in this manner, it seems that in practice "faith" is simply pulled out whenever attempted arguments based on reason and evidence fail. Claims about faith can be used to justify and defend absolutely anything on an equal " and equally unreasonable " basis. This means that faith ultimately justifies and defends absolutely nothing because after we're done with all the faith claims, we're left precisely where we were when we started: faced with a set of religions that all appear to be about equally plausible or implausible. Since our position has not changed, faith obviously added nothing to our deliberations. If faith added nothing, then it has no value when it comes to evaluating whether a religion is likely true or not.
Posted by cheyennebodie 3 years ago
cheyennebodie
Missmedic. Actually faith is evidence that you cannot see or feel. But it is real.Sin is whatever will bring the curse on you. A drunkard will have health problems. All of Gods laws are for our good. The law of sin and death was passed down from Adam. None can avoid it . But God gave us Jesus to instill a higher law. The law of life.That is why he doesn't want man to have sex with man. Health problems are the least of his worries.But he will not lift a finger to stop anyone from engaging in any activity they choose. But he did warn of consequences. Now if you choose to ignore that warning, Then don't blame me or God for the outcome.I have faith in God's word that the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty. So, I avoid those activities.I have faith in God's words that homosexuality will bring death. I have faith in God's word that words can determine our future. That is why I avoid negative words. See, faith is simply giving more weight to one persons words over anothers.Faith is not what religion I was raised in.You have to have faith in what you believe. You have never looked past your own death to see what you believe is true, have you. So, you have to have faith that God does not exist .
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
A sin is only a sin if you believe in a god. The word "logically" should not be used to describe the supernatural or superstitious belief, the word "faith" may work better. "Faith" is the word one uses when one does not have enough evidence to justify holding a belief, but when one just goes ahead and believes anyway. And why would sin matter, all sin will be forgiven if you but believe.
Posted by cheyennebodie 3 years ago
cheyennebodie
You say that Christianity should not make homo's sin.God already gave us his voice on it. Be fruitfull and multiply. That is why he gave us Adam and Eve. Not Adam and steve.You can go to many " Christian" churches where you would be recognized as right. But leave us alone who follows the wisdom of His word.
Posted by evangambit 3 years ago
evangambit
You are right, I am wrong. The definition of what is good and evil is already defined.
Posted by Jellon 3 years ago
Jellon
@LogicalLunitic
P.S. I don't like you said, "by Jellon's logic" when clearly, I didn't state it as my own opinion (it isn't). It is the opinion of a notable percent of the Jewish community. I did provide a link to Jewish Virtual Library which explains exactly what I did.
My purpose in commenting was to inform people of a lesser known fact concerning the Jewish perspective on the law, not to state my opinion. Please think critically about what is said.
Posted by Jellon 3 years ago
Jellon
@LogicalLunitic
In exodus 20 where the 10 commandments are given it says, "you shall not murder." There is no gender applied. By my logistic, murder is murder regardless of gender. Furthermore, men can apply to both genders as it does in English when the gender is unknown. But when it says, "if a man lays with another man as a man lays with a woman, he should be stoned" we know the gender of the doer explicitly. We can also gather from this verse that smoking pot is okay as long as you're gay. :P
Posted by cheyennebodie 3 years ago
cheyennebodie
Sin is any word or action that puts a person under the law of sin and death. And it will restrict the blessing and perpetrate the curse.In Gods word the only sin that keeps a person out of the law of life is not believing that God raised Jesus from the dead. God is not holding any mans sin against them.11 cor. 5:19. The law of sin and death we inherited from Adam.Jesus came to give us a higher law, the law of the spirit of life found in Jesus, the Christ.When we accept that law it lifts us out of sin and death to eternal life.
Posted by evangambit 3 years ago
evangambit
You've really got to agree on an ethical scheme (or at least paradigm) for this debate to not resolve into "I think this is good", "Well I think this is good". Without such low level assumptions, logic cannot really be applied effectively.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
patrick967LifeMeansGodIsGoodTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro ff a round and misrepresented " free will".
Vote Placed by lannan13 3 years ago
lannan13
patrick967LifeMeansGodIsGoodTied
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Total points awarded:24 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture