The Instigator
telisw37
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
Buckethead31594
Pro (for)
Winning
10 Points

Lord's Supper/Crackers served in Church is actually not in bible.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Buckethead31594
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/29/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,711 times Debate No: 43080
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (41)
Votes (3)

 

telisw37

Con

The Lord's Supper is about Passover, and what the Lord/Christ did during the Passover week.
The current practice of wafers served is actually Satanic.
Buckethead31594

Pro

I accept this debate. Yet, my opponent's basis for this argument confuses me; I will assume that this round is merely for acceptance purposes.

Good luck to Con!

Debate Round No. 1
telisw37

Con

Using the bible only, I see no crackers served to the people in church. Do not confuse the feasts days such as Passover serving bread. Does not mean, priest serving people bread and grape juice. The key is to rightly divide the Word of God.
1Co_11:17, Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
1Co_11:18, For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co_11:19, For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1Co_11:20, When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
Buckethead31594

Pro

Why would my opponent immediately concede that they see no "crackers" served to the people in churches?

Let me begin by saying: Con is mistakenly arguing for Pro's side in this debate. The resolution supports the notion that The Lord's Supper/Crackers is not in the Bible. Since my opponent is Con, they should be trying to negate the negative- in proving that it is in the Bible. Yet, If we look at my opponent's first sentence, we can see that they have mistakenly chosen the position of Con, instead of Pro:


"Using the bible only, I see no crackers served to the people in church."

Therefore, I will argue in place of Con that The Lord's Supper/Crackers is actually in the Bible, to avoid further confusion. In the future, I would please ask my opponent to think carefully before they choose a stance based on the resolution.

Firstly, my opponent's Biblical references were used out of context. In Paul's letter to Corinth, he simply addressed the fact that there were divisions amongst the churches. This has nothing to do with communion, or Passover. Although 1 Cor. 11:23-26 refers to how communion should be practiced, it does not refer to what type of bread should be used.

By "crackers" I will assume that my opponent is referring to Matzo- the unleavened bread traditionally eaten by Jews during the Passover. In which case, Matzo is used throughout the Bible[1]. Allow me to use logic to prove that Matzo was used by Jesus during the Lord's supper. As one of the three major Jewish feasts, the Passover came complete from God with strict regulations regarding the proper rituals to be observed. Exodus 12:1-28 detailed specifically that the Passover lamb was to be killed at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month (12:6). Furthermore, its blood was to be sprinkled upon the lintels of the houses in which the Israelites ate the meal (12:7), and the flesh of the lamb was to be roasted—not eaten boiled or raw (12:8-9).

Numerous additional regulations pertaining to the lamb’s preparation, the length of the feast, and various other such facets of the festival could be cited. The one other injunction most specifically pertaining to this discussion is found in verses 15, and 18-20. These verses explicitly state that no leavened bread should be eaten from the 14th day of the month to the 21st day of the month. Verse 15 explains that any person eating leavened bread would be “cut off from Israel” (a phase often implying the death penalty). Verses 18-20 read as follows:

"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a sojourner, or one that is born in the land. Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread."


Simply put, God directly commanded Moses to warn the children of Israel that anyone caught eating leaven during the Feast of Unleavened Bread would be punished severely, possibly with death.

As we move approximately 1,500 years from the initial institution of the feast, we find the Jews of Jesus’ day bound to the same regulations and specificities as those ancient followers of Moses. In fact, we find Jesus- a faithful Jew “born under the law” (Galatians 4:4), and abiding without sin under that same law (1 Peter 2:22)- adhering to the proper commands of the Law of Moses. On occasion, upon healing leprous people, Jesus instructed those individuals to present themselves to the priest as the Law of Moses commanded (Matthew 8:4; Luke 17:12-14).

The Pharisees’ accusations of Jesus’ breaking the Sabbath notwithstanding, Jesus lived perfectly under the Law of Moses. Since He obeyed the Law consistently, when Jesus ate the Passover feast and celebrated the ensuing Feast of Unleavened bread, it is a fact that He would not have used any leaven from the 14th day of Nisan (originally, the first Jewish month was called Abib[3], but its name eventually was changed to Nisan[4]) to the 21st day of that same month, as commanded in Exodus 12:15,18-20.

Therefore, it can be determined beyond any doubt that Jesus would have used unleavened bread during the Passover meal. This fact is of utmost importance, since the Last Supper (at which Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper) often is thought to have occurred on the 14th day of Nisan during the evening of the Passover, marking the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened bread, and negating the resolution.


On to Con, who should be Pro.









[1] Exodus 12:8, 1 Cor. 11:23-26
[2] http://www.spiritandtruth.org...
[3] Deuteronomy 16:1-10
[4] Esther 3:7
Debate Round No. 2
telisw37

Con

I said clearly Crackers served in 'CHURCH"! Christ had his "Crackers" in an upper room. Not a temple. Christ used a dining hall made for food. It was the day before the Passover week, because the 7 day feast week Christ was on trial, then on a cross and then in a tomb. Christ is Lord of the Sabbaths (Yes two Sabbaths!) because He died on His annual Sabbath and rose on the weekly Sabbath=Saturday=The Seventh Day.
First Witness: Mar_14:13, And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
Mar_14:14, And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Mar_14:15, And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
Mar_14:16, And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Second Witness: Luk_22:8, And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
Luk_22:9, And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
Luk_22:10, And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
Luk_22:11, And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luk_22:12, And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
Luk_22:13, And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Luk_22:14, And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk_22:15, And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk_22:16, For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Christ is Lord of the Sabbath.
Joh_19:31, The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Joh_19:32, Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
Joh_19:33, But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
Joh_19:34, But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Joh_19:35, And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
I use the bible for my facts, not false traditions set up by man. I know what I say is not popular because, i know my true purpose is to stand against false teaching=Satan worship in ignorance. 99.9% of all religions serve Satan in ignorance.
Luk_6:26, Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Buckethead31594

Pro

I thank my opponent for his response. As much as I would like to address his arguments in detail, I simply cannot until he provides credible, relevant sources. Otherwise, I would be forced to debate against conjecture.



"I said clearly Crackers served in 'CHURCH"! Christ had his "Crackers" in an upper room. Not a temple. Christ used a dining hall made for food."


What difference does this make?


"It was the day before the Passover week, because the 7 day feast week Christ was on trial, then on a cross and then in a tomb."

I have already logically explained how the Last Supper took place during the Passover. I would ask my opponent to please provide relevant sources to support his claim, such as I have.


"Christ is Lord of the Sabbaths (Yes two Sabbaths!) because He died on His annual Sabbath and rose on the weekly Sabbath=Saturday=The Seventh Day."

My opponent is using the Gregorian calendar to state his claim, when it is completely irrelevant in this case; the Hebrew calendar can only be used here. I still contend that Jesus used Matzo (Crackers) during the Last Supper- negating the resolution.


"I use the bible for my facts, not false traditions set up by man."

Then please provide solid evidence to confirm this claim; such as conflicting dates within the Hebrew calendar.


"I know what I say is not popular because, i know my true purpose is to stand against false teaching=Satan worship in ignorance. 99.9% of all religions serve Satan in ignorance."

This is simply my opinion, but I disagree with you. My opinion does not affect the outcome of this debate, however.

As for your sources, I appreciate that you have provided a Biblical account of what you believe to be two separate suppers. But I say to you, what if they are one in the same? What if they are simply two separate accounts of the same supper?

Please provide solid evidence that proves otherwise.


Onto Con.
Debate Round No. 3
telisw37

Con

Relevant other fact from other sources are irrelevant. The subject is Crackers\Unleavened bread being served in Church/Temple not being in the bible. Not the Hebrew nation's history who served idols most of the time and forgot their true God=The Root of David. Who was/ is a Son of David. So if not in the bible of God then not of God. Or Satan Worship!
1Co_11:18, For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co_11:19, For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

1Co_11:20, When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
1Co_11:21, For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
1Co_11:22, What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
Jer_4:22, For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
Eze_13:2, Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
Eze_13:3, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
Eze_13:4, O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
Eze_13:5, Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
Eze_13:6, They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
Eze_13:7, Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

I rest my case.
Buckethead31594

Pro

I thank my opponent for his quick response. let us conclude this debate:


"Relevant other fact from other sources are irrelevant."

Once again, I am confused by my opponent's choice of words.


"The subject is Crackers\Unleavened bread being served in Church/Temple not being in the bible. Not the Hebrew nation's history who served idols most of the time and forgot their true God=The Root of David."

Yet my opponent fails to understand that Jesus (and all of those in the surrounding region) were deeply rooted in Hebrew culture. And so, in the case of this debate, it would only be wise to use examples that stem from ancient Hebrew culture- as they would be a matter of historic fact, rather than a matter of Biblical interpretation- like that of my opponent's sources.


"So if not in the bible of God then not of God. Or Satan Worship!"

All of my rebuttals come from the Bible. None of which, my opponent has adequately refuted.

Lastly, I don't understand my opponent's excessive use of out-of-context verses from the Bible. I would ask my opponent to forgive me if they actually are in context, I have had difficulties interpreting Con's arguments thus far.

I have sufficiently negated the resolution in question; I have proved that Jesus would have used Matzo bread (crackers) during the Last Supper, and thus, proved that the Lord's Supper/Crackers served in Church is actually in the Bible.

I humbly thank my opponent for this interesting debate.
Debate Round No. 4
41 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by telisw37 3 years ago
telisw37
No the fellowship hall is next (near, or over it) to the church. You must leave the sanctuary /Church and enter the fellowship hall. Clearly a separate building. Many times purchased after the start of the church itself.
Posted by telisw37 3 years ago
telisw37
What an idiot? The wafer eating in the main sanctuary was the subject. Not ones personal church. 99.9% of religions who practice the ritual of the Lord's Supper do it in the temple/sanctuary/church(NOT FELLOWSHIP/DINING HALL WHERE A FULL MEAL IS SERVED OR THE RITUAL IS CORRECTLY PRACTICED!!!!!!!!!.)
I the point the sottish can not understand. Yet they babble on.
Posted by telisw37 3 years ago
telisw37
Facts are Christ will reject your Christian false religion is what is actually written, also it is written that God's sheep=Church is stupid=sottish.
Jer_4:22, For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Mat_7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat_7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat_7:24, Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat_7:25, And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Posted by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
No, the toilet is not inside the sanctuary. But it is inside the church... Just like the fellowship hall...
Posted by telisw37 3 years ago
telisw37
No A FELLOWSHIP HALL it is not the church. It is created for fellowship/dining (Tables for eating not pews!!!!) You are just a double minded babbler. Now just lying. Babble On. Is the parking lot in the church too? I guess your toilet is inside the sanctuary too! Word games, Bullcrap. I will never attend again any Christian church ever. They all lie and babble like you do.
" 1Co 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not that ye come together not for the better but for the worse. 1Co 11:18 For first of all when ye come together in the church I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place this is not to eat the Lord's supper. "
" Eze 13:2 Son of man prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts Hear ye the word of the LORD; Eze 13:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets that follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! Eze 13:4 O Israel thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. Eze 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD. "
Posted by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
*sigh*

The fellowship hall is inside of the church...
Posted by Buckethead31594 3 years ago
Buckethead31594
I think that you two should debate this resolution.
Posted by telisw37 3 years ago
telisw37
Read the title of the debate before babbling bull. Crackers served in church/temple is not in bible yet you babble on.
Posted by telisw37 3 years ago
telisw37
So you agree that cracker eating is not in bible it is done in fellowship hall? Yet your vote babbled against me. Jesus used a dining hall not a church. News flash the fellowship hall is just that, not a church. Babble on.
Posted by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
Fellowship hall, genius.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Cygnus 3 years ago
Cygnus
telisw37Buckethead31594Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Victory goes to Con by default. In Round 2, Pro plagiarized an article titled, "What Kind of Bread did Jesus Use to Institute the Last Supper?" by Kyle Butt. For instance, the sentence, "As one of the three major Jewish feasts, the Passover came complete from God with strict regulations regarding the proper rituals to be observed," is found at the following link: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1196 Moreover, no reference to either Butt or his article can be found in the link Pro cited, and it is obviously not mentioned in any of the verses he cites. Telis37w wins easily.
Vote Placed by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
telisw37Buckethead31594Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: S&G to Pro for proper use of capitalization and for having better syntax. Sources go to Pro for his very informative extra-biblical source. Con's arguments were a convoluted mess of random statements and verses pulled out of context and quoted with no explanation as to how they support his case. Con also seemed confused about what he was to argue as Con.
Vote Placed by Romanii 3 years ago
Romanii
telisw37Buckethead31594Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: S&G go to Pro because Con's arguments were somewhat hard to understand. Arguments to Pro because he did indeed prove that the Bible DOES talk about the Lord's Supper in Church.