The Instigator
Truth_seeker
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
McFaully
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Lucifer and Satan are not the same

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Truth_seeker
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/22/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 876 times Debate No: 53146
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
Votes (2)

 

Truth_seeker

Pro

I will argue for the position that Satan was never Lucifer in origin.

For Round 1, my opponent will only state his position and then for the rest of the rounds, we will argue for our cases.
McFaully

Con

Thanks for opening this debate up, my point will be used to compare the relations in which the figures Lucifer and Satan are the same to the regular mindset of God vs Evil in a physical and spiritual mindset however the difference and confusion between both figures is only created through the unconfirmed textual writings of many Religious pieces which claim that Lucifer is the fallen angel and Satan is merely a witness and the one who coveted and welcomed Lucifer.
Debate Round No. 1
Truth_seeker

Pro

I will now argue for why the teaching that Satan was once an angel known as Lucifer is false.

One of the most common Scriptures used to teach this is Isaiah 14.

Isaiah 14:12-20

"12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned."

A few observations should be noted.

1. In v. 15, it says he will descend to hell or Sheol, which is a place for mortals.

2. v. 16 says that Lucifer is a man, not an angelic being

With these in mind, an angelic being cannot be referenced.

The title "morning star" was never understood to be a reference to an angel, but a title of a Babylonian deity. Jewish Encyclopedia writes:

"The brilliancy of the morning star, which eclipses all other stars, but is not seen during the night, may easily have given rise to a myth such as was told of Ethana and Zu: he was led by his pride to strive for the highest seat among the star-gods on the northern mountain of the gods ... but was hurled down by the supreme ruler of the Babylonian Olympus. "

Thus, Isaiah 14 is speaking of a human king wanting to be like God. Some quote Ezekiel 28 to say that Satan was an angel, but Ezekiel 28:14 of the RSV reads very different from most versions:

V. 14 "With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you."

The person being addressed thus cannot be an angel.

While it is true that Jesus had mentioned Satan falling from heaven as lightning, based on the context of Luke 10, he was referring to his position of power being stripped from him over those captured by sin.

Moreover, Jesus had said when speaking to the Pharisees in John 8:44

"You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars."

Thus, Satan could not have been an angel from the beginning as it would then contradict what Jesus had said concerning Satan. Others quote Revelation to prove that Satan had always been an angel, but Revelation is a prophetic book of the future, not of the past.

In conclusion, Lucifer is a title used for a prideful king whereas Satan's origin can be summed as unknown. All that we can glean from Scriptures is that he has always been evil from the beginning and is God's adversary.
McFaully

Con

McFaully forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Truth_seeker

Pro

Waiting on his argument
McFaully

Con

McFaully forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Truth_seeker

Pro

Truth_seeker forfeited this round.
McFaully

Con

McFaully forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Truth_seeker

Pro

I wait for his response
McFaully

Con

McFaully forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Migrating_Hacker 2 years ago
Migrating_Hacker
Satan means an adversary
Posted by Migrating_Hacker 2 years ago
Migrating_Hacker
Satan means an adversary
Posted by Migrating_Hacker 2 years ago
Migrating_Hacker
Satan means an adversary
Posted by Migrating_Hacker 2 years ago
Migrating_Hacker
Satan means an adversary
Posted by Migrating_Hacker 2 years ago
Migrating_Hacker
Satan means an adversary
Posted by SamuelMarshall999 2 years ago
SamuelMarshall999
The Bible is misinterpreted my friend.
Posted by TeenPTV 2 years ago
TeenPTV
I am also confused, are we supposed to argue that the bible has been misinterpreted or that the bible is wrong and another source is correct?
Posted by Truth_seeker 2 years ago
Truth_seeker
yea
Posted by Mr.sarcastic 2 years ago
Mr.sarcastic
I'm kinda confused by this debate. By origin you mean as described in the Bible?
Posted by SamuelMarshall999 2 years ago
SamuelMarshall999
Good stuff, you are someone who understands. Can't wait to see the debate! :)
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Youth 2 years ago
Youth
Truth_seekerMcFaullyTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Well, the reasons are obvious. Pro made arguments which are sourced (though without a link) and did not forfeit.
Vote Placed by SPENCERJOYAGE14 2 years ago
SPENCERJOYAGE14
Truth_seekerMcFaullyTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had better conduct because Con forfeited.