Lucifer is not evil like god says.
Debate Rounds (5)
https://darrellcreswell.wordpress.com... Which means the only being he comes second to is likely god. Lucifer is gods favorite and the most beautiful angel.
He allegedly tried to take over heaven, apparently was the result of pride, jealousy, and discontent. But lets be honest, Lucifer was doing this as no doubt he disagreed with how his father was running things. Many beings can relate to him because there are a lot of bad dads out there. As well as one-third of all the angels left god for the sake of following Lucifer. Now ask yourself, someone as powerful as god, losing followers to someone less powerful. Who do you think is right in that situation? Because normally when you can chose between the most powerful being and the second most powerful, you go with the most powerful. Unless the most powerful is that unlikable in which case you go with the underdog. My point being, maybe Lucifer was onto something. Again I point out that God made Lucifer better than everything. So when this guy who is better than everything says "Hey guys, this dude that created us is actually a prick." Maybe Lucifer was made a little too well made. And because of that he was able to see right through God.
After all it wasn't Lucifer who was responsible for the whole Noah's ark incident. It was god who committed genocide against the entire planet with the exception of a few human beings and a small group of animals. How can you not agree with Lucifer at this point? Because based on that you can see where God made a horrible mistake. Lucifer has not to this day committed such a massive genocide against the human race. God also has crazy rules. Like if you eat from the tree of knowledge I will kill you. What kind of crazy crap is that? Of course Lucifer is going to look at a mentality like God and go what the hell is wrong with you?
They say Lucifer uses every conceivable way to deceive and destroy people. But that doesn't seem likely to me. What it appears is someone out of all the angels was willing to stand up and say God I don't really agree with you. And as a result God did everything he could to slander this angel to make himself look good, and this angel look like crap. All for the sake of continuing his following and have human beings like you worship him. I mean what happened when Lucifer disagreed with him? That's right, he got kicked out of heaven, just like when you disagree with a crappy parent, they will kick you out of their house. And what does God plan to do with Lucifer, this son that he loves so much? He plans to burn Lucifer alive in hell. That doesn't sound like a compassionate, kind, loving god. That sounds like a monster who would set his own son on fire.
My point is that Lucifer isn't the evil monster most people think of him as. He just disagreed with the most powerful being. And in return that being kicked Lucifer out of his home and into everlasting torcher where he always is getting burned.
My opponent then starts of his next paragraph by saying that we all agree that Satan try to take over because he didn"t like how God was running things, but actually I wouldn"t say that it essentially entailed that. I don"t know where it says that Satan tried to exclude God, but maybe Satan wanted to become just as powerful, or maybe more powerful but not interfere with God"s works. And yes people can relate with Satan, but that is irrelevant to the resolution which is, Lucifer is not as evil as God says, I would like people to pay attention to the keywords, God says. Even if we can relate to Satan, it may be how God described it to be. For example, Lucifer is evil, men can be evil, therefore they relate, however God has said Lucifer is evil, therefore Lucifer is described as how God described him to be. Then pro claims that Lucifer was in the right because he had less power, but some followers still went to his side. The problem with this, is that we can"t neglect Satan was a manipulator. We also can"t neglect that other angels wanted to be like God, just like Lucifer. Therefore they wanted to join Lucifer"s side to grow in power. So I have just gave analytical evidence for why God doesn"t necessarily have to be unliked based off him not running things right. Now I would also like my opponent to provide me the evidence that says Satan was the best creation under god. And pro keeps saying maybe this and that, although everything is pretty much a maybe, but my opponent has to provide reason for why that"s the best conclusion. Now my opponent then goes on to say that Lucifer has not done such crimes as God has, but pro neglects that the reason why there is evil, is because of Lucifer. Depending on what religion you"re talking about, people believe that Satan is the embodiment of evil, or he is the ruler of earth right now and every evil thing is due to him. Therefore Lucifer has caused tremendously more crimes than God, and that"s if there is any. The idea behind the tree of knowledge is much more than just a tree no one can eat from. It"s the principle that if you disobey, you will be kicked out of the garden. If it wasn"t that big of a deal, then nobody will have a problem avoiding it. Also much of this depends on the religion you are talking about specifically.
Lastly, my opponent starts saying that Lucifer maybe did this because he disagreed with God, which is true, no argument there. But then he says God slandered Satan to make himself look good, but does not provide anything reason for this. Pro continuously brings up points without having any sort of evidence for why this is what happened. How does my opponent know that God"s reason for doing this was so that people would continue following him, and even if this is the case, wouldn"t it be good of God for him to encourage people to follow the good guy instead of the bad guy, since my opponent hasn"t proved that God was the bad guy and Satan was the good guy. Then he brings up the people can relate point, which I have refuted previously. Then pro says, "And what does God plan to do with Lucifer, this son that he loves so much? He plans to burn Lucifer alive in hell.", but I know of no quote that states that God loves Satan after his ways, and that Satan is his son. Also it depends on the religion, since some don"t believe in hell. Also my opponent assumes that hell is a fire place.
Con says he doesn't know of any quotes that show that Lucifer was Gods favorite. Here are a few... Satan was God's favorite and beautiful angel (Ezekiel 28:1-19) Lucifer was created by God (Ezekiel 28:13, 15) as were all the other angels (Ephesians 3:9). He was a "covering" cherub (Ezekiel 28:14). There was one great angel that stands on the left side of God"s throne and another on the right (Psalms 99:1). Lucifer was one of those highly exalted angelic leaders. His beauty was perfect and his wisdom was flawless "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty"Every precious stone was your covering" (Ezekiel 28:12,13). His brightness was awe-inspiring. "You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created" (Ezekiel 28:15).
Con says there is evil because of Lucifer. That statement is incorrect. It is because of god. Lucifer and everything else exists because of god. God created evil. But why would he do that if he loves everyone? Con states Lucifer has done much worse crimes than god because everything evil happened because of Lucifer. Yet as I stated, that is Gods fault. Not only God created everything evil he did many other things. Here is a list.
"God takes away Adam and Eve's eternal life, committing the first murder, and holds their descendants responsible and visiting Adam and Eve's punishment down on their children. In today's moral standards, the sins of the father die with the father.
"God destroys all life on Earth in a great flood, except for a drunk (Noah) and his family, for failing to worship him.
"God's tenth plague upon the Israelites was the unjustified murder of all firstborn sons in Egypt, which undoubtedly included little children.
"Before sending the plagues to Egypt, God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" so that he wouldn't let the Israelites go, so he could have an excuse to visit horrible plagues upon them, like boils, killing cattle and murdering all firstborn sons. (Exodus 4:21)
"God orders the Levites to kill their "every man and his neighbor" for worshipping another god. This cost 3000 lives. (Exodus 32:27)
"God sends a plague to the Israelites, apparently feeling that mass-butchery wasn't enough of a punishment. (Exodus 32:35)
"God kills Onan for refusing to impregnate his late brother's (whom God also slew) wife and instead "spilling his seed on the ground." (Genesis 38:8-10)
"God kills the entire populations of Sodom and Gomorrah (again, including women, children and infants) for practicing certain sexual techniques.
"God gives all Philistines hemorrhoids in their pubic areas. (1 Samuel 5:9)
"God kills over 50,000 people for looking at an ark. (1 Samuel 6:19)
"God kills 70,000 people because King David decided to have a census. (1 Chronicles 21:7-14)
"God approves of slavery, and instructs owners to beat their slaves. (Proverbs 29:19)
"And, finally, God makes sure that if you are guilty of even the smallest transgression, you shall suffer endlessly for all eternity, following a dramatic homecoming for Jesus, who will be extremely pissed off at everyone for putting him to death, even though it was just the Romans and even though he knew what was going to happen beforehand, and he could have easily avoided it by using his power as God to perform a miracle and prove who he was. (See the entire book of Revelation)
And lets look at Lucifer's list.
"Satan, like Prometheus, gave knowledge to humanity by giving Eve the fruit from the forbidden tree. Because of Satan, humanity gained knowledge of good and evil, according to Genesis. Since we couldn't have possessed knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve couldn't have known that eating the fruit was evil, so it seems a little harsh to punish them as severely as God did. Satan gave humans true capacity for moral judgment, unlike God, who simply expected everyone to mindlessly obey his orders.
"There is no biblical record of Satan engaging in the murder of torture of any human being, unlike God, who is guilty (and proudly guilty) of committing genocide.
"There is no biblical record of Satan ever ordering someone to kill someone else, unlike God, who has repeatedly demanded the deaths of those who commit even the smallest of offenses.
"Satan will not be holding a massively dramatic ceremony full of blood and death for the return of his son to Earth. God apparently will.
It doesn't take a mathematician compare God and Satan's death counts. God has, killed billions of people in a great flood. Lucifer never did anything like that. What was the only thing Lucifer did "wrong"? He rebelled against God, but wouldn't you? Look at what kind of a God he is! He needlessly murders people in nearly every book and passage of the Old Testament! He created an entire race of people for the sole purpose of catering to his own ego, and then gets mad when we don't live up to our appointed role in life or question one of his decisions! He is a ruthless, dictatorial, narcissistic, sociopath mass murderer. Who do you think is the evil one here?
Pro also misunderstands when I say evil is due to Lucifer. Yes God did create everything, but the thing is that evil is a thing that exists because it"s essential for there to be good. If evil didn"t exist then good wouldn"t exist because then everything would just be normal. I hope this was sufficient but if not then I"ll go into depths in my next turn. But since now that"s established, the evils on earth are due to Lucifer because God isn"t actively creating these evils, Lucifer is. Evil does exist because of God, but the specific acts being done aren"t by God. Therefore the evil acts are due to Lucifer and in the end are way more numerous. ,
Lastly, aside from the poor rhetoric, pro states many things he deems as bad on God"s side and on Lucifer"s side. Well first I ask my opponent how he knows that billions died in the flood. Then he says that Lucifer did nothing like that, but yet I have shown why Lucifer has done much more harm. I have also shown how rebelling was not the only wrong thing Lucifer did and my opponent has conceded that as well, and no I wouldn"t have rebelled. Who in their right mind would disobey and all powerful entity? God does not needlessly murder, in the bible which tells us all this stuff, and which is valid since we are assuming god exists, God is described as just. Therefore his acts were just. And my opponent claims to be able to read God"s mind and say that he knows God"s purpose was to create for his own ego. But if he was all powerful then couldn"t he have done it without creating humans? It would be also ridiculous for me to try to respond to every single quote taken from this website which he copied and pasted. https://www.quora.com....
As for slavery
Pro is disregarding context in which the bible is written and what it is referring to. As we know the gospels are truly the heart of the bible everything Jesus teaches in there does not condone abuse of another by taking advantage. Looking outside the gospel one may find a verse that points otherwise and seemingly contradicts the bible but recall the bible doesn't explicitly condone slavery as ok it just tells slaves how to defer to their masters or may have instances in which one of God's chosen people had a slave. For the first part the bible centers on people being a humble and servile for the glory of God. To always be rebellious isn't always Godlike because God does place redemptive value in suffering. So a slave that is obedient would be pleasing to God not because God wants him to be a slave but moreover because God wants him to show that he is willing to embrace suffering and be humble and servile as a way to glorify God. On the second part slaves in that contact might not have been like the slaves we think of today in human trafficking or transatlantic slave trade. Some slaves were even treated as family members and groomed to sometimes even we'd the daughter and continue their lineage. Even though they are engaged in forced servitude there life isn't necessarily wrought with the suffering we tend to conflate slavery with. Some of them are just children that don't have homes and need a domestic occupation.
I would gladly refute his quotes but he has to explain how they are unjust.
Yes, I understand what you are saying about balancing good and evil. But which side is truly evil? The dictator who caused multiple genocides? Or the son who disagreed with him? You say the evil acts are due to Lucifer. I assume you are talking about murder, rape, stealing, etc, from humans today and in the past. But god created free will. "God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible." -C.S. Lewis
I know millions of people died in the flood because of science. I can't explain it better than this website. https://biblescienceguy.wordpress.com... And thanks to free will, Lucifer isn't the cause of evil on Earth. So Lucifer did not do as many evil acts as god. God has killed 33 million people and Lucifer has killed 10, according to http://www.abovetopsecret.com... Anyone in their right mind can see that God and Lucifer aren't what people think of them as.
You say "God wants him to show that he is willing to embrace suffering and be humble and servile as a way to glorify God."
Servile: Having or showing excessive willingness to serve or please others.
Glorify: Describe or represent as admirable. Especially unjustifiably or undeservedly.
God was making this person please him, but god did not deserve it.
That is just based on definition.
The second part of the slavery paragraph seems okay. Can you please show where in the bible it says that?
My opponent strawman"s the argument by saying dictator vs. someone who just disagreed. Lucifer did way more than that, for one he had tempted Eve. And it"s bad to manipulate someone to do something when Lucifer knows what God will do in consequence for Eve eating from the tree. And the evil things aren"t only done by men. For example things such as illnesses, natural disasters, and death. Also deformities, scarce resources which lead to stealing and such things provided by my opponent, and temptation into evil. Therefore my point still stands.
"From Adam to Noah"s Flood was 1656 years. If we assume for this period an average population doubling time of 74 years corresponding to 1804 to 2012 when humanity grew from 1 billion to 7 billion, then the world"s population would have been 10.9 million people at the Flood." My opponent neglects the fact that there are assumptions being made in this estimate, and that it"s an estimate. Plus let"s say this was the case, the thing that matters is the justice that went into it, which again since we are using the bible as true, the bible said God was truly just. Also my point still stands that evil is due to Lucifer.
"God was making this person please him, but god did not deserve it." God did deserve it. I would also like to point out that my opponent totally neglected the definition number one for glorify, which is, reveal or make clearer the glory of (God) by one's actions. Therefore the voters can see clearly how my statement made sense. The thing God wanted to see was the virtue of the slaves. The virtue of being humble and helping others. And I"m confused on what you"re asking me to quote. You said the second part was okay, but if you are referring to the second part, there are several things I said.
God only showed Eve the good things in life. Lucifer showed her both sides. That is not being manipulative, that's showing the truth.
I'm not saying only humans do evil things. Illness was created by God. Natural disasters are called that because they are natural. Science can prove how they form. If we didn't have death, the Earth would be over populated. That means even less resources for people. The world is only so big. We can't have many resources and if we did, we would be even bigger hogs.
Of course the amount of deaths is an estimate. No one truly knows how many died in the flood. And you talk about justice. Massacring millions of people is considered justice? I know those people sinned but so have you and I. If God wants justice, why doesn't he kill us all again? Isn't he supposed to be forgiving? Yet he caused genocide because people didn't follow him. The bible says god is just. So God says he is just and we are just supposed to believe him?
I mean when God brought in people who didn't have homes and gave them a job. Where does it say that in the bible?
My overall point being, how can we trust a guy who has killed over 30 million people when he says a guy has killed 10 is evil? I know Lucifer has done other things but not as bad as God. I think that makes Gods word bogus.
Thank you for debating with me, it was fun! =[^_^]=
And please don't vote only based on who you agree with. Thanks!
"God only showed Eve the good things in life. Lucifer showed her both sides. That is not being manipulative, that's showing the truth."
My opponent claims that Satan was telling the truth when telling adam and eve that they will be like god, which is false and I am sure that I don"t need to prolong this argument. And why would God need to show them the bad side if what you"re arguing is that God shows the bad side too much?
"I'm not saying only humans do evil things. Illness was created by God. Natural disasters are called that because they are natural. Science can prove how they form. If we didn't have death, the Earth would be over populated. That means even less resources for people. The world is only so big. We can't have many resources and if we did, we would be even bigger hogs."
When someone says that God created everything, that includes the things that are created indirectly. If Lucifer didn"t exist it"s not like God would be actively striking illnesses on people without just reasons. Lucifer is the cause of the evils on earth today because God kicked him out unto it. And yes this point is valid because you didn"t specify which religion. And yes they are natural disasters because people don"t base scientific things off of religious things. Therefore Lucifer is the cause of the evils on earth. And I did mention that scarce resources is due to Lucifer.
"Of course the amount of deaths is an estimate. No one truly knows how many died in the flood."
So my opponent conceded that he doesn"t know how many people died in the flood, therefore he couldn"t know if it"s over a billion.
"The bible says god is just. So God says he is just and we are just supposed to believe him?"
No but we are using the bible as if it were true. If not then we would need to start by arguing how the bible is the world of god, but since you conceded that, you are saying that the bible contains truth. Therefore the things said in the bible are considered as true.
"Isn't he supposed to be forgiving?"
He is forgiving and just, but just because someone has the quality of being forgiving, doesn"t mean they are forgiving to the fullest extent. Someone being honest, doesn"t mean that the person couldn"t tell one lie. Therefore God is merciful when he needs to be.
"I mean when God brought in people who didn't have homes and gave them a job. Where does it say that in the bible?"
I never said that, please read the argument I made again.
"My overall point being, how can we trust a guy who has killed over 30 million people when he says a guy has killed 10 is evil? I know Lucifer has done other things but not as bad as God."
Lucifer has done worse things for the reasons stated. We can trust someone even if they have killed whatever amount of people if the act was just. Thanks to my opponent for arguing. For all the reasons and my extended arguments, I urge voters to vote con.
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