The Instigator
Stupidape
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
warren42
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

Luke Skywalker is an evil character who practices witchcraft.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
warren42
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/4/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 319 times Debate No: 94425
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

Stupidape

Pro

I can't see the force in the Star Wars series as anything other than Witchcraft. I don't see any of the Jedi praying to Jesus for their Jedi powers. The whole series promotes witchcraft and evil.
warren42

Con

I'll accept.

Since Stupidape made very simple arguments in R1 I will too. They will be expanded upon in the next round.

The Jedi Code is a strong moral code.

Disbelief or non-belief in the Christian God does not mean someone/something is evil.

Thanks!
Debate Round No. 1
Stupidape

Pro

Rebuttals

"Disbelief or non-belief in the Christian God does not mean someone/something is evil." warren42

I beg to differ, disbelief in the Christian God is more or less the definition of evil.


"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son." [0]


"The Jedi Code is a strong moral code." warren42

A strong moral code that does not include God's ways. Labeling what is immoral to God as moral and visa versa, labeling what is moral to God as immoral, the Jedi are being immoral. As I see it we must put God first, and therefore view all actions through the lens of the Bible. This includes fantasy like Star Wars.

Specifically the Jedi label the immoral act of witchcraft as moral. Which I will continue in the next section.


Expanding on first round argument


Star Wars is all occult as seen in this link. [1]

"
Deuteronomy 18:10-12King James Version (KJV)

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee." [2]

Clearly, by speaking to the dead Luke Skywalker is committing a form of witchcraft. I mean seriously, the Jedi are more or less the witches and warlocks in the Harry Potter series. There is very little difference. Instead of wands and brooms there is light-sabers and the force.

Thanks for debating.

Sources
0. http://biblehub.com...
1. http://www.vigilantchristian.org...
2. https://www.biblegateway.com...
warren42

Con

Opening comments: Please note that each of my opponent's sources are incredibly biased, with a clear pro-Christian bias.

Analysis of BoP: Pro holds the BoP here, as they must prove that
1. Morality should be weighed with respect to Christianity. Unfulfilled.
2. Disbelief/Nonbelief in God makes an individual or way of lie "evil" Proven thus far, but will be negated in this round
3. Star Wars promotes witchcraft. Also proven thus far but will be disproven in this round.

Concessions by Pro: The Jedi Code is a strong moral code.

1. The Jedi Code is a strong moral code
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
(There is no chaos, there is harmony.)
There is no death, there is the Force.
—The Jedi Code (Based on the meditations of Odan-Urr) [1]

The Jedi promote principals in line with those of Christianity: principals of peace, enlightenment, harmony, and fraternity. The only major difference is belief in the Force as a higher power rather than the Christian God.

2. Dis/non-belief in God does not equate to evil

One does not have to believe in God to be a good person or to go to heaven. Pope Francis stated that even atheists can get into heaven if they are moral individuals. [2] If we are taking the Bible literally in this debate, which it appears we are, Papal infallibility would come into play [3], and Francis' newer doctrine would reverse the Bible verse my opponent quoted in R2. Matthew 16:18-19 refers to the original Pope, Peter, being told by Christ himself that whatever the Pope teaches on Earth will be consistent with the ideas in heaven. Therefore Francis' admission that nonbelievers and even disbelievers can be moral people debunks the entire Pro argument.

Rebuttals

R1. Skywalker talking to dead

This is essentially the same idea as praying to a saint. You're literally talking to a dead person.

R2. Use of the Force

Remember that the Star Wars universe is "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away." Earth is never mentioned, so they would have had no exposure to Christian teachings, even if "a long time ago" was less than the 2000ish years since Christ's passing. The Force is a real entity in the galaxy in which they reside, and therefore they are believing the only thing they have had exposure to. I'm sure anyone would.

[1] http://starwars.wikia.com...

[2] http://www.catholic.org...

[3] http://www.catholic.com...

Debate Round No. 2
Stupidape

Pro

Defending my arguments


"Analysis of BoP: Pro holds the BoP here, as they must prove that

1. Morality should be weighed with respect to Christianity. Unfulfilled." warren42


I think its implicit with the title containing the word witchcraft. It is not like I can prove the Christian God exists.


"The only major difference is belief in the Force as a higher power rather than the Christian God." warren42


Which is breaking the first commandment.

"1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me." [3]


Impact, many of the characters in Star Wars see the Force as a higher power, another God, a false idol.


"2. Dis/non-belief in God does not equate to evil

One does not have to believe in God to be a good person or to go to heaven. Pope Francis stated that even atheists can get into heaven if they are moral individuals. [2] If we are taking the Bible literally in this debate, which it appears we are, Papal infallibility would come into play [3], and Francis' newer doctrine would reverse the Bible verse my opponent quoted in R2. Matthew 16:18-19 refers to the original Pope, Peter, being told by Christ himself that whatever the Pope teaches on Earth will be consistent with the ideas in heaven. Therefore Francis' admission that nonbelievers and even disbelievers can be moral people debunks the entire Pro argument." warren42


Yes pope Francis did say that, but there was a catch

"LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.

However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ. " [4]

I interpret this to mean Atheists can still do good, and eventually if they continue to perform good deeds they will be lead to Jesus. The problem here is that Luke Skywalker is not good. I'll expand on that after finishing defending my argument.


"R1. Skywalker talking to dead

This is essentially the same idea as praying to a saint. You're literally talking to a dead person." warren42


The way Skywalker talked to the dead was more of a seance than a prayer. Seemed more like he used the Force to summon a dead spirit as in necromancy. [5] As seen in the link, praying to a saint is moral, but not a seance.


"R2. Use of the Force

Remember that the Star Wars universe is "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away." Earth is never mentioned, so they would have had no exposure to Christian teachings, even if "a long time ago" was less than the 2000ish years since Christ's passing. The Force is a real entity in the galaxy in which they reside, and therefore they are believing the only thing they have had exposure to. I'm sure anyone would." Warren42


But you forget God created all humans and the Earth. God existed before time, so no matter how far back the Star Wars series is supposed to be, God will have existed first. Let's say the Star Wars series is supposed to be one quadrillion years before Earth. God will still have existed before the series.


Luke Skywalker is evil


First, Skywalker believes in a false idol, the Force. Second, he uses the Force to commit all sorts of necromancy, seance, and witchcraft. Third, Skywalker doesn't believe in Jesus, fourth Skywalker kills a bunch of people. Fifth, he is rebel scum.

"Submission to Governing Authorities

13 "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."[6]

"For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has rejected you as king." [7]


As I see it the Emperor and Darth Vader were authorities established by God and Luke Skywalker should have obeyed their laws. Remember the planet that was destroyed by the death star's super laser? They brought down judgment upon themselves by rebelling against what God has instituted.

I'm not saying the Siths were the nicest people, but they were better than the Jedi. I've always seen the siths as the good guys and the jedi as the evil rebels. One more note, one of the ten commandments is to your honor thy father and mother. Luke rebelled against his father.

Thanks for the debate.

Sources
3. http://www.the-ten-commandments.org...
4. http://www.catholic.org...
5. http://www.catholic.com...
6. https://www.biblegateway.com...
7. http://biblehub.com...
warren42

Con

Key Concessions by Pro

"Atheists can still do good"

Pro essentially admitted in R4 that Atheists can be moral. This means that nonbelief=/=someone evil. If I can prove Luke to be moral, he is not evil and therefore Con wins the debate.


The Force is not inconsistent with the First Commandment.

This one was more implicit, but Pro did so twice. The translation of the First Commandment used by Pro had a key word that make this a concession.
-"gods" the Force is not a god, but rather an entity, which is real in the Star Wars reality. The Jedi, Luke included, do not worship the Force, but rather recognize that it is a real, existing entity.

Impact: Belief in the Force does not make Luke evil.

Few quick defenses of R3 arguments.

Skywalker never "summon[ed] a dead spirit" so Pro's analysis of Skywalker's witchcraft is nonsensical.

"...you forget God created all humans and the Earth. God existed before time, so no matter how far back the Star Wars series is supposed to be, God will have existed first. Let's say the Star Wars series is supposed to be one quadrillion years before Earth. God will still have existed before the series." -Stupidape

This is not warranted, but for fun and games I'll momentarily assume this to be true. This does not mean that any characters in the Star Wars universe had any exposure to the Christian God or the teachings thereof. Therefore, Stupidape cannot fault Luke or any other character for not believing in the Christian God.

Refutations of Stupidape's R4

I'm not a fan of new arguments in the final round, but as Stupidape has done so, and the debate rules do not disallow it, I will refute the new arguments made.

Authority/Rebellion Argument

The Sith take over the democratic government in place in the first three movies. If you make this argument it actually applies to the Sith, as the Jedi are actually fighting for reinstatement of the original government.

Justified Killing

Christianity allows for justified killings, as killing and murder are different. [1]

"The command from scripture in the original language actually says “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word for “murder” literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.”"
-Cold Case Christianity with J. Warner Wallace

I'd argue that Skywalker's killing of Sith and other members of the Empire are completely justified, considering they were an empire on a war path that indiscriminately killed inhabitants of entire planets. Not only are these killings not evil, they actually prove Luke to be a strong moral character, as he is seeking retribution for innocents who were mercilessly slaughtered by the Empire.

Conclusion


Even if you buy my opponent's witchcraft argument, which was only lightly touched upon, I win on Skywalker's morality. Vote Con. Thank you.

[1] http://coldcasechristianity.com...
Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by BackCommander 1 year ago
BackCommander
Stupidapewarren42Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro's argument is built on a biased foundation. Pro used one of many faith-based books of moral conduct as if it were, not only fact but, the only source of morality in existence. Not a very convincing argument for anyone who doesn't share Pro's exact beliefs. Con used both this faith-based book and information from a Star wars site to back his argument, as opposed to Pro's use of only said book, netting Con the sources vote.