The Instigator
RyozoTabikashi
Pro (for)
Losing
20 Points
The Contender
Chrysippus
Con (against)
Winning
33 Points

Luke Skywalker would beat Jedi Master Yoda in a fight

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 9 votes the winner is...
Chrysippus
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/30/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 9,233 times Debate No: 23212
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (29)
Votes (9)

 

RyozoTabikashi

Pro

con you start the argument. you are for yoda. good luck. this is after training and when he is a grand jedi master like yoda.
Chrysippus

Con

I thank my opponent for this debate. I have never done a Star Wars debate, and in fact had to brush up on a good deal of the Extended Universe canon to have any idea of Luke's abilities post-Yavin. This debate promises to be fun, not least because of the nature of the research involved.

Lacking a fixed, authoritative source for this debate, biographical information for Luke and Yoda will be taken from Wookipedia. Official canon only.

All events are dated from the battle of Yavin, the date expressed as "before the battle of Yavin" (BBY) or "after the battle of Yavin" (ABY).

I argue that, if the two Jedi were ever to meet in combat, Yoda would probably win.

1. Experience

I'm not going to recount every battle Yoda fought, and compare them to every battle Luke fought. For the moment, unless my opponent chooses to bring up counter examples, I'll make this point by a very simple comparison.

Yoda became a Jedi Master before 800 BBY. For more than 800 years, he was the greatest Force wielder and the wisest Jedi in the galaxy, renowned as one of the three greatest Jedi to have ever lived.

At the age of 30, Luke re-formed the Order around 11 ABY; he assumed the title of Grand Master around 36 ABY, and died at some point well before 137 ABY. Luke was a Jedi Master for less than 100 years.

Assuming we are matching these two in their prime, Yoda has 700+ years of experience more than Luke has.

2. Knowledge

Yoda spent upwards of 800 years as a Jedi Master, teaching many generations of Jedi Knights. Through those years, he had unlimited access to the vast Library in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, with all the books, artifacts, and holocrons the Order had accumulated over the millennia. He spent centuries learning from and teaching some of the greatest Jedi Masters of all time.

Luke did not have access to any of this knowledge. He was forced into action after mere months of informal training under an old and dying master, and spent a large amount of his career scouring the galaxy for fragments of Jedi lore that Palpatine missed in the purge. Despite his best efforts, he could hardly have recovered more than a tiny fraction of the knowledge that was lost. The finer points of dueling were lost with the masters that knew them; those that could have mentored him in the classic forms were either killed in the Clone Wars and the Purge (Form II, Dooku; Form VII, Windu) or died before they had the chance to teach him more than the basics (Form III, Kenobi; Form IV, Yoda). Force Lighting, an attack Luke struggled to defend against for most of his career, was obviously not a problem for Jedi Masters before the purge; Yoda and Windu are both shown redirecting it without taking damage - Yoda doing so with his bare hands.

The Library was destroyed shortly before Luke's birth, and he struggled all his life to attain the basic knowledge that a few months in it's halls could have given him.

Yoda's Force abilities were naturally great, but were also highly trained over centuries with all the knowledge of the Order at his disposal.

Luke learned most of his abilities by instinct or by experimentation; his development was hindered by his lack of training. Many of the abilities he learned, such as generating Force Storms, he learned from his enemies.
Yoda mastered all of the lightsaber fighting forms, learning them in the mature, polished form that 3000 years of combat use had given; and he used those forms effectively against many enemies who were also trained to a high level. Luke learned the basics, and learned the rest by trial and error; mostly against backwater foes and rustic Sith Lord - wannabes. The few times in his early career that he faced against a truly formidable opponent, he either lost or required back-up to win. As good as he eventually got,
its clear he never quite made it into Yoda's league.

3. Character

Yoda is noted for having utter control over his emotions at all times, fighting dispassionately and without ever giving in to the Dark Side. His power was more than a match for even the strongest of the Dark Side users he dueled.

Luke, in his considerably shorter history, was rather more impulsive and passionate. He had difficulty at times avoiding the Dark Side, actually going over at at least one point. It wasn't until late in his career that he finally gained a level of control over his emotions and was able to fight calmly.

In short: Luke had great potential, and a very distinguished career, but he was hampered by his lack of training and the loss of the accumulated knowledge of the Oder. Had he been given the same training and mentoring Yoda received, and had he lived a few more centuries, he might have eclipsed the old Grandmaster.

As it was, should Yoda and Luke ever have met in a duel, Luke would be overwhelmed by Yoda's greater skill and experience.

I return this debate to my opponent.

http://starwars.wikia.com...

http://starwars.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 1
RyozoTabikashi

Pro

I am first going to thank my opponent for a wonderful start to a smart and glorious debate. I am gong to first rebuttal my opponent, then make my own point, and conclude it all in a conclusion.

1. Experience

There is no doubt that Yoda had a lot more experience that Luke, however, that does not mean that even the most experienced fighters does not befall some kind of misfortune in the battlefield. Think about it, even though Yoda is a very agile fighter, he can not predict every movement that Luke is going to throw at him. So whereas Yoda has experience, Luke has vitality and youth on his side. (More on this later.)

2. Knowledge
Again there is no doubt that Yoda has more knowledge, but without way to utilize the knowledge, the knowledge would become useless. Therefore, just because he has something, doesn't make him better than Luke, or a greater Jedi. Don't get me wrong, knowledge is power, but you got to use he knowledge at the correct moment.

3. Character
It is true Yoda had never went over to the dark side that us of the star war universe knows of, and it is again true that Luke did, (again more on this later,) but that doesn't make one better or worse than the other. Take Mace Windu for example, his fighting style VaaPad, make the user channel the dark side of the force, and use it to fight the enemies they are facing. But people consider Mace Windu one of the greatest Jedi of all time, even if he does channel the dark side. So it isn't if you go to the dark side, it's if you can resist the lure and power granted by the dark side. So the greatness isn't forged by light or dark but strength of will
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

1.Luke had almost no one to teach him, yet gain some superb skills.
Now I know Obi-Wan and Yoda taught him the Semi-Basics, but let's face it, Luke Skywalker had absolutely no one he could fully call his teacher. Therefore when faced with difficulties, he did what he could with the knowledge he had, and he also found some old Jedi holocrons to help teach him about the ways of the force. Luke also learns "Shatterpoint," which is something that Mace Windu is famous for. He is the first Jedi since Mace Windu other than Jaina Solo to learn Shatterpoint, and Luke teaches Jaina. Also as my opponent mentioned earlier, he also learns the force storm technique, which allows the user to rip massive ships apart, and he can even stop Palpatine's force storm and render it useless. This is no small feat. He learns to direct force lighting and deflect it also, just as Yoda can, and he has Luke Skywalker can use the force to move black holes (Dark Tide: Ruin) and rip apart fortresses (Before the Storm). In the Vong War he took on hundreds of Vong Slayers by himself (The Unifying Force) despite the fact that a single Vong Slayer is a match for a skilled Jedi Knight.

2.He has the best lightsaber combat, rivaling Master Yoda

Now no one can doubt that Master Yoda is a good lightsaber duelist, but Luke has the upper hand. In learning to fight with the lightsaber, and as quickly as he did, he showed that he was a great pupil, and very powerful in the force. He has combined type one, two, and five of lightsaber combat to make his own style, and also learned Yoda's and Obi-Wan's style briefly. Luke studied some lightsaber skills from Kenobi's journal and greatly advanced his abilities, which goes to show that Luke was dedicated and learn more after Yoda's and Obi-Wan's death. During Operation Shadow Hand the Sith Lord Darth Sidious returned in a clone body and Luke became his apprentice. Luke rebelled against the reborn Emperor and dueled him in a younger clone body. Emperor Palpatine won the duel and Luke was drawn further to the Dark Side. Luke was freed from the Dark Side by his sister Leia, and engaged the Emperor in a final duel. Leia could hardly see the movements of Luke and the Emperor, but she sensed waves of power generating from them—dark from the Emperor, and light from Luke. Luke took the upper hand and sliced off the Emperor's hand with cho mai. Darth Sidious, who had dueled Yoda to a stand still, was finally defeated.

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Skywalker
http://starwars.wikia.com...
Chrysippus

Con

The agreed-upon condition of this duel is that both combatants are "in their prime." Obviously, this is a hypothetical and nebulous point, since there is no way to know exactly when each was at their best; and the times that seem to fit this best are about 100 - 300 years apart. The only contact Luke and Yoda had (while both were alive, that is) was within a year of the end of Yoda's life.

Note that all three of the prequels are set within 37 years of Yoda's death. He is certainly not in his prime; he is in fact very old and tired, and far less agile than he was in his youth. His reflexes are slower, and his judgment clouded by years of Palpatine's machinations.

Despite this, he fought brilliantly in the Clone Wars, defeated Dooku in a duel, and fought Palpatine to a draw. When Luke fought Palpatine (at the ages of 23, 28, and 29), he lost twice and only won the last time because he had outside help.

If we can compare their strengths by their duels with Palpatine, then, its clear that even when Yoda is old he is still a more capable swordsman than Luke is. How much more when he was in his prime?

This duel pits a middle-aged Yoda, at perhaps 600-700 years old, against a middle-aged Luke, at around 40. Note that Luke was 30 years old when he re-founded the Order, and nearly 45 when he took the title Grand Master; many of the techniques of dueling Luke learned had not been recovered at the time he re-founded the order.

To defend my original points:

1. No, experience doesn't guarantee success; however, it does make it easier to win if one takes part in a lot of previous duels. Yoda simply has the greater experience fighting, and is more likely to win based on that alone.

2. Yoda's more complete knowledge of the forms of swordfighting is extremely relevant to his duel with Luke; if Yoda is privy to tricks and techniques that Luke never learned, he can pull them out to overwhelm Luke. Luke's comparative ignorance is a strong disadvantage for him.

3. I will concede this point, as it is relatively unimportant to the outcome.

_____________________

Now, to address my opponent's new points:

1. Luke does manage to recover some of the techniques used by the old Order. This does not give him an advantage over Yoda, since Yoda knew these techniques already - in the more polished form they had before the purge. The question to ask here is: If he managed, slowly and painfully, to recover these impressive techniques; what other powerful techniques could he have learned if he had lived before the purge, as Yoda did?

2. I've already compared Yoda and Luke as they matched against Palpatine; the point here is that Luke is only notable as a swordsman because he was mostly self-taught. Luke has impressive force capabilities, rivaling Yoda's; his knowledge and experience using the force are slight compared to Yoda, though. Luke has impressive skills with the saber, but it is necessarily a less polished form than Yoda's since he had to invent it himself without the Jedi Order to consult.

As for the difference in the saber forms, Yoda was the master of all the forms except VII, and he was present when that was invented. Yoda used Soresu, form IV, which made up for his short stature and reach and allowed him to attack from all sides of an opponent almost simultaneously.

This combat would be spectacular, but it is unlikely Luke would win. It is far more probable that Yoda would win, or force a draw.

I return this debate to my opponent.
Debate Round No. 2
RyozoTabikashi

Pro

Whereas my opponent hasn't added any new arguments, then I will use what he has given me. My opponent is consistent on the fact that Yoda's prime and Luke's prime is over 300 years apart. However, with technology the way it is in Star Wars universe, what is to say that he doesn't go back in time and face against Yoda. They could make a time machine or some other device.

I also want to point out the fact that Yoda uses Ataru not Soresu. Therefore, my opponent is wrong on that point, thus making that argument wrong. And I don't remember any reference of Yoda knowing Shatterpoint or any other type of technique that Luke has learned, so I need proof that Yoda used that for that to stick.

Now since my opponent hasn't made any new arguments for me to rebuttal, then I hand it over to my opponent.
Chrysippus

Con

My opponent misunderstands; by pointing out the gap in time between Yoda's prime and Luke's, I am not saying the fight could not take place. This is a hypothetical duel, after all. All I was trying to say was, the Yoda you see in the movies was old and dying, and - compared to when he was in his prime - slow and weak. He still beat the tar out of Palpatine.

"I also want to point out the fact that Yoda uses Ataru not Soresu."
A typo. The validity of the argument is unaffected; and I did say it was form IV, which was correct. The point was Yoda's greater mastery of the lightsaber, since he had mastered ALL of the forms (including soresu, incidentally) and was capable of using any of them. His preferred form has advantages which cancel out Luke's greater reach and aggression.

My opponent has failed to answer almost all of the arguments from last round, including:

- My comparison of Luke and Yoda using Palpatine as a benchmark,
- My defence of the experience point (Yoda has been far more duels than Luke, and against greater opponents; this gives him an edge in our duel),
- My defence of the knowledge point (since Luke never mastered ALL of the lightsaber forms, Yoda will be able to pull tricks out of his sleeve that Luke won't expect.)
- The fact that Yoda knows and can use many more Force techniques than Luke.

"And I don't remember any reference of Yoda knowing Shatterpoint or any other type of technique that Luke has learned, so I need proof that Yoda used that for that to stick."

Yoda is called by the wiki "one of the most skilled users of the Force in the history of the galaxy." He lived for 900 years during the golden age of the Jedi, and had time to learn every Force technique. He was Windu's first teacher, and was present for his training and career; he is not a strange to Shatterpoint, as he was the mentor of the most famous Shatterpoint-user.

There are relatively few stories about Yoda, as Lucas wanted to keep him something of a mystery. There are many stories about Luke, of course; but most of them have to do with him learning Force techniques that were lost in the Purge - techniques that Yoda taught in the Jedi Temple.

There is no way for me to exhaustively list all of the Force techniques Yoda knew. No doubt, most of them aren't even recorded.

Luke's force lightning will be used against him by Yoda, who can re-direct it back at him. If he calls up a force storm, there's no reason why Yoda cannot do the same, or redirect it back at him.

A few examples of Yoda's Force abilities:

- he mastered Force Valour, which renders the user almost invisible;
- he turned off Ventress's lightsabers while they were still in her hands, and took them away using the Force;
- precognition, an ability he was noted for before the Sith clouded the Force.

When he is listed as one of the most skilled masters of the Force to have ever lived, I expect that statement to speak for itself. If there is a way to use the power of the Force, it is a safe guess that Yoda can use it.

I now return the debate to my opponent, and ask him to address my arguments. Leaving arguments unanswered is tantamount to conceding the debate, as it implies one has no answer to give.
Debate Round No. 3
RyozoTabikashi

Pro

First I would like to apologize for misunderstanding what you were implying with the time frame statement. I thought you were saying it wouldn't happen. Therefore, let me get on with the argument.
You say he beat the tar out of Palpitine, but that is not the case. He tied with Palpitine, because neither of them came out on top. However, as stated before, Luke beat Palpitine, after his sister brought him from the dark side. As for the Ataru statement, that is his main style, and is known for it, for its agility and jumps.
Luke vs. Palpitine, you argue that he had help, but when he fought Palpitine, he had no one beside him. Lea, his sister was looking from afar, but no one was beside him, thus letting him win by himself. So yeah Lea brought him from the dark side, but that is the only role she played.
Okay Knowledge and Experience. We already covered this. Yes Yoda has more knowledge and Experience, but if the situation doesn't call for it, then how will it help him in a battle. So whereas he does have more of both, Luke can use his own knowledge to beat Yoda. This battle wouldn't be decided on Experience and Knowledge alone, it would be based on skill and cleverness.
Yoda probably knows slightly more than Luke, but knowing them and using them are two different things. Think about it. Yoda can throw lighting, but he doesn't use it. Luke can too, but the difference is he uses it. So that gives him an advantage over Yoda. He isn't afraid to use lighting, which in Yoda's time is the trademark of the Sith. Therefore, this more than likely gives Luke a major advantage in battle against Yoda. He was raised in times that regulations were in place. Luke did things differently and changed a few things and it worked out. It is two completely different time frames of rules and regulations.
Okay, but in the Star Wars universe, the only one other than Luke to use Shatterpoint is Mace Windu. Not Yoda, Windu. So I don't think he could use Shatterpoint.
As for Force Valor and his other abilities, okay so….he can go invisible, big deal. Luke can sense him in the force; whereas Luke can hide his presence Yoda won't be able to find him. Also his visions, Luke had proven in the book Invincible to be able to control what people see when they meditate, as he did with Darth Cadeaus, who was in fact his nephew Jacen Solo. So those two abilities can be easily beaten by Luke. Then the Ventress Lightsabers ordeal, he just showed he was stronger than her in the force. If he tried that with Luke, then he wouldn't be able to do it because Luke is strong enough to fight him off.
Also it is said that Anakin Skywalker, Luke's father had a higher Midi-chlorians count than Master Yoda, and each generation get stronger from father to son, therefore he would be able to defeat him that way. To prove this I quote Lucas himself. Lucas has said in interviews that Luke Skywalker had the same total midi-chlorian count that Anakin did at birth.
Also as Yoda quoted In Return of the Jedi, Yoda stated on his deathbed "Strong am I with the Force, but not that strong,"
With this being said it is my opponents turn.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_%28Star_Wars%29
Chrysippus

Con

At this point, nothing further will be gained by repeating the same arguments. I argue that Yoda's experience, skill, and knowledge make him the odds-on favorite to win; he argues that Luke learned quickly without having a teacher, and that he has awesome skillz.

I compared the two using their duels with Palpatine as a benchmark: Yoda duels him to a stalemate just a few years before Yoda DIES OF EXTREME OLD AGE; Luke loses to him twice (while Palpatine is old and tired, and the second time old, DEAD and tired) and only wins the last time because his sister was there to assist.

I point out that all the Force abilities Luke is learning are things known to the Jedi before the purge; undoubtedly Yoda knows them, since he spent over 700 years teaching them to the new Jedi. My opponent refuses to concede this, as is his right; but the truth is Luke has nothing on Yoda.

My opponent claims Luke is stronger in the Force than Yoda; I have already refuted this - you need look no father than the official Wiki, where Yoda is listed as one of the three greatest Jedi to ever live, and one of the most powerful Force users ever.

http://starwars.wikia.com...
First two sentences: "Yoda was one of the most renowned and powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history. He was known for his legendary wisdom, mastery of the Force and skills in lightsaber combat."

Third paragraph: "...arguably the Order's greatest master of the Force and most skilled warrior..."

Powers and Abilities, first two sentences: "Considered the greatest Jedi Master of the era by many, Yoda was one of the most skilled users of the Force in the history of the galaxy. Indeed the Grand Master was so strong in the Force that he demonstrated the ability to effortlessly disarm the powerful Dark Jedi Asajj Ventress, who was known to have defeated Jedi Council Masters, with a simple gesture."

That is the debate in a nutshell.

I make no new arguments this round. My opponent's points are only relevant if one disregards everything I wrote. Sure, Luke learns Shatterpoint. Sure, luke does, eventually, finally, defeat the old dead Emperor. Sure, Luke has a high midichlorian count. None of that matters if he cannot match up to Yoda in skill, attunement to the Force, or experience in dueling.

I think that I have shown he cannot.

I return this debate to my opponent for his summary. I will use my last round, as five rounds is really too long, merely to thank him for being a worthy opponent.
Debate Round No. 4
RyozoTabikashi

Pro

i am going to use round five for two things. i am going to conclude my argument and thank me opponent for this wonderful debate.
first i want to thank my opponent for a wonderful debate. not many people can give me such a wonderful and enlightening debate about Star Wars, a topic i am very knowledgeable about. so thank you.
in conclusion to my debate, it is in my opinion that Luke Skywalker would beat Jedi Master Yoda in a fight because he has much better skills, and he isn't bound to the rules as much as Yoda is. therefore, i think that he has the best chance to win. Also they both were in the prime of youth, so the battle would be epic. thanks again for the fantastic debate.

Vote Pro
Chrysippus

Con

I thank my opponent for an enjoyable debate.
Debate Round No. 5
29 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by shine 3 years ago
shine
Although this is old, I appreciate this debate. Just my input on stuff that wasn't mentioned. Yoda was a master with the force and used knowledge that was availible to him, but becouse of the strict teachings of the jedi order he couldn't tamper with any darkside forces. Luke mastered more techniques than yoda could have becouse his connection with Mind Walkers and other force sensative beings. Luke could Time Flow. Not even Sideous could do that. Luke could also project phantasmal images that were so real that even powerful force sensitive beings couldn't detect the diffrence. He made a phantom fleet appear and look so real that pilots ignored the fact that the ships didn't appear on radar and still fired. Luke Skywalker was in his prime as Grand Master, not when he was younger. Even if he might have been slightly slower than Yoda (hasn't been proven) his knowledge of force powers beat Yodas. Yoda had access to the Library but he couldn't use knowledge that was prohibited by the jedi order nor could he learn it. Luke having realised there was no bad or good powers frequently studied both. After his run in with the Mind Walkers he realised that it wasn't the powers that made you good or bad, it was how you used them. Thus being able to use Force storms and others that had been prohibited to Yoda before. In a lightsaber duel Time flow lets you go into the past and future, thus making him able to see his opponents moves before they happen. In a lightsaber duel this would have won the upperhand for him. darth Cadeus used this for entire battles and thus won time after time using the same technique. There is much Yoda never knew that Luke learned...My vote would have been Luke all the way.
Posted by Chrysippus 4 years ago
Chrysippus
Coolshady, please vote on the arguments presented. Your votebomb is not appreciated.
Posted by Chrysippus 4 years ago
Chrysippus
I wondered what I had done to lose the conduct and source points.
Posted by Maikuru 4 years ago
Maikuru
Tyler's vote should be countered.
Posted by RyozoTabikashi 4 years ago
RyozoTabikashi
i give you credit. you have made this debate fun and challenging. thank you.
Posted by Chrysippus 4 years ago
Chrysippus
Of course.
Posted by RyozoTabikashi 4 years ago
RyozoTabikashi
no new argument on r5. agreed?
Posted by Chrysippus 4 years ago
Chrysippus
I suggest we treat R4 as the last round, as we're basically just repeating ourselves at this point. 5 rounds was a bit much.
Posted by RyozoTabikashi 4 years ago
RyozoTabikashi
My apologies. i misunderstood
Posted by Chrysippus 4 years ago
Chrysippus
Slight correction: Yoda and Luke had one other meeting, some 20 years before; but Luke was a newborn, and so learned nothing from it.
9 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Vote Placed by awesomeness 4 years ago
awesomeness
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Reasons for voting decision: troll
Vote Placed by Zaradi 4 years ago
Zaradi
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Reasons for voting decision: Counter tyler. Vote off the arguments made, not your beliefs.
Vote Placed by phantom 4 years ago
phantom
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Reasons for voting decision: Last two votes seem to be countering the same VB. Evening it out.
Vote Placed by bossyburrito 4 years ago
bossyburrito
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Reasons for voting decision: Counter-VB
Vote Placed by 1dustpelt 4 years ago
1dustpelt
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Reasons for voting decision: counter coolshady. Coolshady, you need to stop mass vbing debates
Vote Placed by coolshady10 4 years ago
coolshady10
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Reasons for voting decision: duh luke sucks @ sword fighting
Vote Placed by Maikuru 4 years ago
Maikuru
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro argues that Luke's skills and cleverness would assure him a win, yet denies that Yoda's knowledge and experience, which surpass that of Luke in every way, would somehow be inapplicable. As Yoda is considerably more knowledgeable in the force, arguments concerning Luke's force powers are irrelevant. Pro also drops the majority of Con's contentions. Con used superior sources and his grammar was superior throughout.
Vote Placed by tylersch96 4 years ago
tylersch96
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Reasons for voting decision: it is just a matter of perspective
Vote Placed by PeacefulChaos 4 years ago
PeacefulChaos
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Reasons for voting decision: Both sides did an excellent job, but Pro slacked off in the end. I voted for Con because Pro essentially kept repeating himself when Con had already disproved him. Con also proved Yoda was the best and most skilled user of the force/lightsaber, which means his skills are far greater than Lukes, which will lead to his victory.