The Instigator
SavedByChrist94
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
NUMBER_1RED_SOX_FAN
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points

Lust is not a sin in The Bible but Advocated

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
NUMBER_1RED_SOX_FAN
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/31/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,713 times Debate No: 31951
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (12)
Votes (3)

 

SavedByChrist94

Pro

I will allow my opponent to offer his/her argument against this, and then I will provide my rebuttal.
NUMBER_1RED_SOX_FAN

Con

I thank my opponent for offering this debate. It should be interesting.

First, let's define the term lust.

As defined by dictionary. com, lust is -uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite.

Synonyms include lasciviousness and adultery.

So, here are some Scripture verses regarding the topic.

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I Peter 4:3
For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries

II Corinthians 12:21
And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in
unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

These are a few verses regarding the topic.

Now, my opponent will try to say that these are just translations, but any copy you will look at is just that, a copy.
As with any copy, whether Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or English, you must trust that God has preserved His Word.

So, please read these verses and vote Con.
Debate Round No. 1
SavedByChrist94

Pro

"As defined by dictionary. com, lust is -uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite."

1, Sexual desire is God made, not man made, therefore not "uncontrollable", the only thing that one cannot control is their Will, Sexual Desire is not from our Free Will but a Desire such as Appetite, so the first definition is not up for debate.

2, And I will prove that whatever you term as an Illicit Sexual Desire or Appetite even a sexual desire for someones elses wife isn't sin.

Number 2, adultery is unfaithfulness or cheating, sexually desiring a woman isn't cheating, desiring to steal another mans wife is adultery in ones heart.

First we start with Matthew 5:27-28,

Matthew 5:27"28: Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη" οὐ μοιχεύσεις. ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

Key here is this part: πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι

transliteration, pros to epithumesai

pros to comes BEFORE epithumesai

so now just like these verses, where it would be rendered IN ORDER TO,

"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men in order to be noticed by them." (Matt 6:1)

Original Greek - Προσέχετε [a]δὲ τὴν δικαιοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς" εἰ δὲ μή γε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

"" First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles in order to burn them up "." (Matt 13:30)

Original Greek, 30 ἄφετε συναυξάνεσθαι ἀμφότερα [a]μέχρι τοῦ θερισμοῦ" καὶ ἐν καιρῷ τοῦ θερισμοῦ ἐρῶ τοῖς θερισταῖς" Συλλέξατε πρῶτον τὰ ζιζάνια καὶ δήσατε αὐτὰ εἰς δέσμας πρὸς τὸ κατακαῦσαι αὐτά, τὸν δὲ σῖτον συναγάγετε εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην μου.

"But they do all their deeds in order to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments." (Matt 23:5)

Original Greek - 5 πάντα δὲ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ποιοῦσιν πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι τοῖς ἀνθρώποις" πλατύνουσι [a]γὰρ τὰ φυλακτήρια αὐτῶν καὶ μεγαλύνουσι τὰ κράσπεδα,

"For when she poured this perfume on my body, she did it in order to prepare me for burial." (Matt 26:12)

Original Greek - 12 βαλοῦσα γὰρ αὕτη τὸ μύρον τοῦτο ἐπὶ τοῦ σώματός μου πρὸς τὸ ἐνταφιάσαι με ἐποίησεν.

All from Matthew.

So, Matthew 5:27-28 can be either of the following from the definition of epithumesai(which is verb), something you do, the one making no sense is void.

Here we go,

"You have heard that it was said, "Do not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action, whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, "Do not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστιν. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

Added with looks at a woman in order to.

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, "Do not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.

So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

Now with this fact, that covet is an action and not a desire and as proven by http://Goddidntsaythat.com...

Covet in The 10 Commandments means take.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10
I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, "You shall not take(steal) your neighbor"s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor"s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, "Do not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

So the claim that Matthew 5:17-28 says lust is sin has been refuted, the next verses I will get to in next rounds.
NUMBER_1RED_SOX_FAN

Con

You often use the original Greek text. Which, although it makes you sound impressive is only your attempt to confuse your opponent with something the average person cannot understand.

But, in spite of that, I will still point out fallacies.

First, the majority of the verses you brought up were irrelevant to the topic.
You use completely random verses that did not help your cause at all.

Second, the literal translation of Matt. 5:28 reads like this, "but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart."
So, all it takes to make it a sin is to look at her and have any slight desire. That is the straight definition of lust.
Because my opponent is not defending his point and I have successfully defeated his points. You should give me the conduct point because of my opponents attempt to confuse by using a resource that is not readily available to all involved.
I ask you to vote Con
Debate Round No. 2
SavedByChrist94

Pro

"You often use the original Greek text. Which, although it makes you sound impressive is only your attempt to confuse your opponent with something the average person cannot understand."

How is that to confuse the opponent and make me sound impressive? It's just facts, I did point by point, even the layman would know, I certainly cannot read Hebrew or Greek yet I did it.

"Second, the literal translation of Matt. 5:28 reads like this, "but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.""

Nope, what you or even I say doesn't go, ONLY what Jesus Christ(God) says goes, to know what He said we use what The Apostles originally wrote, so I'll post again,

Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη" οὐ μοιχεύσεις. ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

What you say or I say doesn't go, only what YHWH said, your english translations are words of men not words YHWH/Jesus Christ, YHWH/Jesus Christ words are in Hebrew and Greek.

"So, all it takes to make it a sin is to look at her and have any slight desire. That is the straight definition of lust.
Because my opponent is not defending his point and I have successfully defeated his points."

No you have not successfully defeated my points as you didn't even mention a single point, this is pure cowardice, People look at the previous round and all I wrote compared to his paragraph, he's lying.

No one is confusing anyone I broke it down that even the layman can understand, lets look at The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers how the early Church in 2ND CENTURY had this verse to prove this,

"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα" "Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν"- Theophilus to Autolycus(2nd Century), B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

Lust isn't a sin, Adultery is.

My opponent has presented pure cowardice stemmed from trying to place false man made "atheistic" burdens that Jesus Christ warned about, Matthew 23:4 - " For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." - The Lord Jesus Christ.

There's no reason to vote for con other than 3 things, confirmation bias, indoctrination, or 3 not liking that it was proved that Lust isn't a sin.

Now lets refute the other verses,

1 Peter 4:3 - I Peter 4:3
For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries

On this verse, the word translated to lust in the Greek is again epithumeo; a longing (especially for what is forbidden), which fits well in the context, because Peter would have condemned a specific sexual behavior as well, he didn't even mention sexual sins, so this is about the crazy drugged up, drunken lifestyle that is condemned.

Even Peter 1 4:2 The Previous verse confirms this, http://interlinearbible.org... as the same word is used,
"so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God." Obviously sexual desire isn't being mentioned in that men but the desires of men, which is evil, and that we should no longer live for the lusts of men(sin and evil) but for The Will of God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

"Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

and

II Corinthians 12:21
And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
"

The word in Greek for "lasciviousness" is aselgeia which means by Greek lexicon, http://biblelexicon.org...

http://biblesuite.com...

(outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence), wantonness, lewdness.

So it has nothing to do with sexual desire but with indecency(like public nudity)

Every single verse you presented, refuted.

There is no reason to vote con as con is proven to be indoctrinated and proves no points with Hebrew and Greek facts, just his man made assertions.

Unless you are as well indoctrinated or blind, you will not vote con, Vote Pro, sex being evil was created by man, by Greco-Romans, not YHWH, YHWH created sex and obvious just like He created food He created the desire for it so that we can eat and have sex, (which is really just liking physical beauty, which YHWH created).

This is the same "atheist" philosophy other atheist religious have about Masturbation, it isn't even mentioned in The Bible and Pharisees say it's sin.

your choice,

Vote for con who is The Pharisee

or Pro who presents YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit)'s Truth.
NUMBER_1RED_SOX_FAN

Con

When you say that the Greek verses you post are what Jesus Christ said, you are putting faith in the same thing that you have to so that you can believe an English translation. The so-called "original text" that you post are just copies of copies of copies of copies. To believe that what you are reading is accurate takes just as much faith as believing that and English text is accurate.
Now, you say that I did not bring up any of your points. I did. So, I am not being a coward. I am also not stooping so low as to resort to calling my opponent names such as coward, liar, and Pharisee. You also attempt to say that I have the same philosophy as an atheist.

You said that the definition of the word "lasciviousness" is outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence, wantonness, lewdness.
However, according to dictionary. com, Merriam-Webster, and Macmillan Dictionary the word lasciviousness is defined as either lustful or a desire for sexual activity. So, this defiantly defeats that point of your argument.

So, I ask the voters to vote for someone who has presented facts, has not insulted his opponent, and has refuted his opponents points. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
SavedByChrist94

Pro

"When you say that the Greek verses you post are what Jesus Christ said, you are putting faith in the same thing that you have to so that you can believe an English translation."

No you aren't, the english translations are... translations, Original greek is just copies, as The New Testament was Originally written in Greek(http://www.biblica.com...) so we have the original, also EVEN IF there was to be faith, you'd commit a sinful error by putting your trust in the english translation by man rather than the oldest language, you never do that we any translated document.

Greek was the original New Testament language, the oldest manuscripts go back to 125AD, and they were direct copies from the early church fathers, if you not trust the original language of Jesus Christ words then you basically don't trust Jesus Christ or The Entire New Testament.

"To believe that what you are reading is accurate takes just as much faith as believing that and English text is accurate."

This invalidates any credibility of my opponent in this field, we have the Original Greek Manuscripts and as proven they say what I translated, that to desire adultery is sin in your heart, not that lusting, as I have proven and you failed to refuted.

"You said that the definition of the word "lasciviousness" is outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence, wantonness, lewdness.
However, according to dictionary. com, Merriam-Webster, and Macmillan Dictionary the word lasciviousness is defined as either lustful or a desire for sexual activity. So, this defiantly defeats that point of your argument."

That isn't the argument, don't change the subject, I don't care what you call it, lustful desire, lust or looking with sexual desire is not a sin, it's from YHWH(The Father and The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

"So, I ask the voters to vote for someone who has presented facts, has not insulted his opponent, and has refuted his opponents points. Vote Con."

What facts? Until you refute this you have not presented any facts and deserve no votes, The Debate is for me to prove that it isn't a sin and you have to refute that, so when I present this,

"Whether you like it or not, Jesus Christ Originally said and this is what everything you believe is translated from, Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη" οὐ μοιχεύσεις. ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

What you say or I say doesn't go, only what YHWH said, your english translations are words of men not words YHWH/Jesus Christ, YHWH/Jesus Christ words are in Hebrew and Greek.

"So, all it takes to make it a sin is to look at her and have any slight desire. That is the straight definition of lust.
Because my opponent is not defending his point and I have successfully defeated his points."

No you have not successfully defeated my points as you didn't even mention a single point, this is pure cowardice, People look at the previous round and all I wrote compared to his paragraph, he's lying.

No one is confusing anyone I broke it down that even the layman can understand, lets look at The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers how the early Church in 2ND CENTURY had this verse to prove this,

"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα" "Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν"- Theophilus to Autolycus(2nd Century), B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

Lust isn't a sin, Adultery is.

My opponent has presented pure cowardice stemmed from trying to place false man made "atheistic" burdens that Jesus Christ warned about, Matthew 23:4 - " For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." - The Lord Jesus Christ.

There's no reason to vote for con other than 3 things, confirmation bias, indoctrination, or 3 not liking that it was proved that Lust isn't a sin."

Until you refute that, we cannot take your opinions over YHWH's Truth, sorry your not above the law. YHWH created something beautiful and you call it a sin despite the fact that YHWH has made it clear, it's not a sin.
NUMBER_1RED_SOX_FAN

Con

You say that we have the originals. NO WE DON'T. What we have are copies of copies of copies. According to Dr. Daniel B. Wallace, an expert in New Testament studies, the oldest New Testament manuscript we have was written 50 years after the original. Imagine how many copies have been made since then. Otherwise the oldest document we have was written only 300 years before Jesus was born, when the original was written over 1000 years earlier. So, when you say we have the original, you are just wrong. You say that "I don't care what you call it, lustful desire, lust or looking with sexual desire is not a sin". The Bible, God's Word, the Supreme Authority, says that lasciviousness is a sin. In saying this it also condemns lust. You arguing that the Bible is advocating lust is not biblical. I agree with you that God's Word is the final authority. And his final authority says that lust is a sin.

Voters, listen to reason. Vote with the person defending the truth. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
SavedByChrist94

Pro

"You say that we have the originals. NO WE DON'T."

Yes we do, stop saying what "atheist" and unbeliever says, we have copies of the original text, which technically makes them... Original. All English translations are TRANSLATED FROM the Greek, so you have no excuse but to accept the Greek before any english version, accepting the english opposed to greek is like choosing man over YHWH, you don't do that.

"What we have are copies of copies of copies."

If that's the case then English Translations are Translations of THE COPIES, so if you believe what the English says you are Entitled to believing WHAT it is translated from, it's all Translated from Greek, so whatever the Greek says is what YHWH's Word says, english translations go out the window According to You.

"". The Bible, God's Word, the Supreme Authority, says that lasciviousness is a sin."

Nope, says Lewd lifestyle and drunkiness are a sin, YHWH made sex, why are you making HIS Design a sin, He made beauty to be admired, calling that a sin is calling what YHWH made a sin, YHWH cannot sin.

" In saying this it also condemns lust. "

You have not proven this anywhere, nor have you refuted one thing I said, you might as well forfeit because you are losing his debate.

"Voters, listen to reason"

What reason? We'll listen to your reason when you throughly refute this --> "First we start with Matthew 5:27-28,

Matthew 5:27"28: O76;_4;_9;a3;`3;^5;`4;^9; P05;`4;_3; O52;`1;`1;^1;_2;_1;" _9;P16; _6;_9;_3;`7;^9;a3;`3;^9;_3;`2;. O52;^7;P60; ^8;P50; _5;^1;^7;`9; P17;_6;Q50;_7; P05;`4;_3; `0;Q18;`2; P01; ^6;_5;^1;`0;`9;_7; ^7;`5;_7;^5;Q50;_4;^5; `0;`1;P56;`2; `4;P56; O52;`0;_3;_2;`5;_6;Q34;`3;^5;_3; ^5;P16;`4;P52;_7; O72;^8;_1; O52;_6;_9;^3;`7;^9;`5;`3;^9;_7; ^5;P16;`4;P52;_7; O52;_7; `4;Q35; _4;^5;`1;^8;^3;Q15; ^5;P16;`4;_9;Q66;.

Key here is this part: `0;`1;P56;`2; `4;P56; O52;`0;_3;_2;`5;_6;Q34;`3;^5;_3;

transliteration, pros to epithumesai

pros to comes BEFORE epithumesai

so now just like these verses, where it would be rendered IN ORDER TO,

"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men in order to be noticed by them." (Matt 6:1)

Original Greek - \8;`1;_9;`3;^1;`7;^9;`4;^9; [a]^8;P50; `4;P52;_7; ^8;_3;_4;^5;_3;_9;`3;a3;_7;_1;_7; P17;_6;Q82;_7; _6;P52; `0;_9;_3;^9;Q50;_7; O56;_6;`0;`1;_9;`3;_2;^9;_7; `4;Q82;_7; O36;_7;_2;`1;a4;`0;`9;_7; `0;`1;P56;`2; `4;P56; _2;^9;^5;_2;Q34;_7;^5;_3; ^5;P16;`4;_9;Q50;`2;" ^9;O84; ^8;P50; _6;^2; ^7;^9;, _6;_3;`3;_2;P56;_7; _9;P16;_4; O56;`7;^9;`4;^9; `0;^5;`1;P48; `4;Q83; `0;^5;`4;`1;P54; P17;_6;Q82;_7; `4;Q83; O52;_7; `4;_9;Q50;`2; _9;P16;`1;^5;_7;_9;Q50;`2;.

"" First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles in order to burn them up "." (Matt 13:30)

Original Greek, 30 O40;`6;^9;`4;^9; `3;`5;_7;^5;`5;_8;^0;_7;^9;`3;_2;^5;_3; O36;_6;`6;a2;`4;^9;`1;^5; [a]_6;^1;`7;`1;_3; `4;_9;Q66; _2;^9;`1;_3;`3;_6;_9;Q66;" _4;^5;P54; O52;_7; _4;^5;_3;`1;Q83; `4;_9;Q66; _2;^9;`1;_3;`3;_6;_9;Q66; O52;`1;Q82; `4;_9;Q50;`2; _2;^9;`1;_3;`3;`4;^5;Q50;`2;" ]1;`5;_5;_5;^1;_8;^5;`4;^9; `0;`1;Q82;`4;_9;_7; `4;P48; _0;_3;_0;^0;_7;_3;^5; _4;^5;P54; ^8;^2;`3;^5;`4;^9; ^5;P16;`4;P48; ^9;O84;`2; ^8;^1;`3;_6;^5;`2; `0;`1;P56;`2; `4;P56; _4;^5;`4;^5;_4;^5;Q66;`3;^5;_3; ^5;P16;`4;^0;, `4;P56;_7; ^8;P50; `3;Q50;`4;_9;_7; `3;`5;_7;^5;^7;^0;^7;^9;`4;^9; ^9;O84;`2; `4;P52;_7; O36;`0;_9;_2;^2;_4;_1;_7; _6;_9;`5;.

"But they do all their deeds in order to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments." (Matt 23:5)

Original Greek - 5 `0;^0;_7;`4;^5; ^8;P50; `4;P48; O56;`1;^7;^5; ^5;P16;`4;Q82;_7; `0;_9;_3;_9;Q66;`3;_3;_7; `0;`1;P56;`2; `4;P56; _2;^9;^5;_2;Q34;_7;^5;_3; `4;_9;Q50;`2; O36;_7;_2;`1;a4;`0;_9;_3;`2;" `0;_5;^5;`4;a3;_7;_9;`5;`3;_3; [a]^7;P48;`1; `4;P48; `6;`5;_5;^5;_4;`4;^2;`1;_3;^5; ^5;P16;`4;Q82;_7; _4;^5;P54; _6;^9;^7;^5;_5;a3;_7;_9;`5;`3;_3; `4;P48; _4;`1;^0;`3;`0;^9;^8;^5;,

"For when she poured this perfume on my body, she did it in order to prepare me for burial." (Matt 26:12)

Original Greek - 12 ^6;^5;_5;_9;Q66;`3;^5; ^7;P48;`1; ^5;P21;`4;_1; `4;P56; _6;a3;`1;_9;_7; `4;_9;Q66;`4;_9; O52;`0;P54; `4;_9;Q66; `3;a4;_6;^5;`4;a2;`2; _6;_9;`5; `0;`1;P56;`2; `4;P56; O52;_7;`4;^5;`6;_3;^0;`3;^5;_3; _6;^9; O52;`0;_9;^3;_1;`3;^9;_7;.

All from Matthew.

So, Matthew 5:27-28 can be either of the following from the definition of epithumesai(which is verb), something you do, the one making no sense is void.

Here we go,

"You have heard that it was said, "Do not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action, whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, "Do not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

_9;P16;_4; O52;`0;_3;_2;`5;_6;^2;`3;^9;_3;`2; `4;P52;_7; ^7;`5;_7;^5;Q50;_4;^5; `4;_9;Q66; `0;_5;_1;`3;^3;_9;_7; `3;_9;`5;. _9;P16;_4; O52;`0;_3;_2;`5;_6;^2;`3;^9;_3;`2; `4;P52;_7; _9;O84;_4;^3;^5;_7; `4;_9;Q66; `0;_5;_1;`3;^3;_9;_7; `3;_9;`5; _9;P20;`4;^9; `4;P56;_7; O36;^7;`1;P56;_7; ^5;P16;`4;_9;Q66; _9;P20;`4;^9; `4;P56;_7; `0;^5;Q50;^8;^5; ^5;P16;`4;_9;Q66; _9;P20;`4;^9; `4;P52;_7; `0;^5;_3;^8;^3;`3;_4;_1;_7; ^5;P16;`4;_9;Q66; _9;P20;`4;^9; `4;_9;Q66; ^6;_9;P56;`2; ^5;P16;`4;_9;Q66; _9;P20;`4;^9; `4;_9;Q66; P17;`0;_9;_0;`5;^7;^3;_9;`5; ^5;P16;`4;_9;Q66; _9;P20;`4;^9; `0;^5;_7;`4;P56;`2; _4;`4;^2;_7;_9;`5;`2; ^5;P16;`4;_9;Q66; _9;P20;`4;^9; P05;`3;^5; `4;Q83; `0;_5;_1;`3;^3;_9;_7; `3;_9;a3; O52;`3;`4;_3;_7;. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

Added with looks at a woman in order to.

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, "Do not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.

So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

Now with this fact, that covet is an action and not a desire and as proven by http://Goddidntsaythat.com......

Covet in The 10 Commandments means take.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10
I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, "You shall not take(steal) your neighbor"s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor"s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, "Do not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating)"
NUMBER_1RED_SOX_FAN

Con

In my last round my opponent continued to insult me. This is very unprofessional. Before I get to a point that should automatically stop anyone from voting for him, I will refute what he calls his "arguments".

First, he says that the Bible is not condemning lasciviousness. WHAT!?! Mark 7:21-23 says the following

21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

Galatians 5:19 says "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousnesss"

Ephesians 4:19 says "Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."

I Peter 4:3 - "For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries"

These are just a few examples.

Lasciviousness=Lust.

You say that I have no choice but to accept the Greek over the English. Actually, I do. I trust that God has lead the men of God in writing and translating the meanings of Books of the Bible.

No matter what you say you do not have the originals. All the copies we have do contain error. There is no doctrinal error, but there is scribal error in the copies we have.

I pointed out his few original arguments.

Now let's make a little comparison.

First, when you as a voter reads this, go up to my opponents Round 2 and read from the line "All from Matthew..." to the lines he calls the "The True 10 Commandments".

So, voters, do not look at what seems impressive, don't look at the outside appearance. Instead, look at and vote for the person who is defending the truth of God's Word.

I again thank my opponent for challenging me to this debate. It was, as I thought and said in Round 1, "interesting".

Debate Round No. 5
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Impact94 2 years ago
Impact94
You know, I think pro may have be on to something; although the problem I see in this debate is that pro had difficulty communicating these bible verses from the greek texts
Posted by justin.graves 4 years ago
justin.graves
SavedByChrist94 seems to believe that there is a conspiracy against him. The question is: Is this paranoia or pride?
Posted by SavedByChrist94 4 years ago
SavedByChrist94
How is this guy getting votes? Somethings fishy, he didn't refute anything, I definitely won this debate, someones up.
Posted by SavedByChrist94 4 years ago
SavedByChrist94
"I am not saying that you are gay, but do you have a close friend that "came out of the closet?" Maybe a relative? "

I don't know anyone gay(well in Middle school one friend turned gay but back then I was a bigot, I don't know him anymore), the reason I defend Homosexuality is the same reason I defend a guy who is attracted to fat women(no offense, I do not hate fat women, I just do not find them attractive, just like I don't find muscular or skinny women attractive, just my taste), should he be denyed this when it isn't a sin? No, now does me defending him mean I like fat women too? No, that is insulting to my personhood.
Posted by SavedByChrist94 4 years ago
SavedByChrist94
"I am not saying that you are gay, but do you have a close friend that "came out of the closet?" Maybe a relative? I struggle with lust, after all I'm a 15-year-old guy, but that doesn't mean I twist the Bible to excuse my sins."

Also a Christian does not sin, 1 John 3:9-11 "9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God"s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God"s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

More on Love and Hatred

11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another"

You have no excuse to "struggle with sin", you shouldn't have any sins, Lust is not a sin, it's a Desire, Desire, Lust isn't Sin and I'd Glady accept a debate from you on this.

How is it a sin, where in The Law is it condemned?

Romans 4:15 - "because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression"

Romans 5:13 - "13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone"s account where there is no law."

1 John 3:4 "Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness."

Where in The Law is Lust Condemned? Point a specific law please.

YHWH made sexual desires, denying that is like saying His Own Creation is evil, you don't commit that blasphemy kid.
Posted by littledude506 4 years ago
littledude506
Proverbs 6:16-19 - These seven doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: Greed, gluttony, sloth, LUST, pride, envy, and wrath."
Posted by littledude506 4 years ago
littledude506
Amen to @savedbychrist94 and @justin.graves. Testify!!!
Posted by justin.graves 4 years ago
justin.graves
I am not saying that you are gay, but do you have a close friend that "came out of the closet?" Maybe a relative? I struggle with lust, after all I'm a 15-year-old guy, but that doesn't mean I twist the Bible to excuse my sins.

I cannot prove that God exists, you cannot prove that God exists, only God can prove Himself. He doesn't need pathetic worms to do it for Him.
Posted by SavedByChrist94 4 years ago
SavedByChrist94
"You shall have no other gods before me" Exodus 20:3

"What profit is an idol when its maker has shaped it, a metal image, a teacher of lies? For its maker trusts in his own creation when he makes speechless idols!" Habakkuk 2:18.

Amen and justingraves you trust in men, as you know that when I beat you in our debate I proved YHWH the real God whom you deny doesn't condemn Homosexuality or Lust you surpress the truth,

Romans 1(The Very passage you claim condemn Homosexuality, which I refuted)

"18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

you know what happens Justin when I beat an "atheist" in a debate and prove that YHWH exists? they repress the truth, likewise, just like an "atheist" you repress the truth in false doctrines, putting false words of men in His mouth.

you don't do that, and I urge you to repent.

"When one molds God to suit his own tastes, desires, and wants, it is idolatry."

Wait a minute, are you claiming that I am gay? Also Hypocrite, this is what you do.
Posted by justin.graves 4 years ago
justin.graves
"You shall have no other gods before me" Exodus 20:3

"What profit is an idol when its maker has shaped it, a metal image, a teacher of lies? For its maker trusts in his own creation when he makes speechless idols!" Habakkuk 2:18.

When one molds God to suit his own tastes, desires, and wants, it is idolatry.
(i.e. saying that God supports lust and homosexuality)
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by nreed2 4 years ago
nreed2
SavedByChrist94NUMBER_1RED_SOX_FANTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro only provided unreadable counter arguments even though as the instigator he bore the BoP
Vote Placed by justin.graves 4 years ago
justin.graves
SavedByChrist94NUMBER_1RED_SOX_FANTied
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Total points awarded:16 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro was cocky arrogant and rude. He also used his personal opinion as pretty much his only evidence. Con was correct in saying that we do not have the originals and Con's real contentions were never actually debunked. Pro got his butt whooped pretty good, but at least I can give him a point for spelling and grammar, I saw two or three grammar issues in Con's contentions, but none in Pro's. Sorry, I'm a little OCD.
Vote Placed by Trystanharpold 4 years ago
Trystanharpold
SavedByChrist94NUMBER_1RED_SOX_FANTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: con had a better argument and had better sources. To pro, i recommend using a well known english bible for your verses because I almost couldnt follow your point at all with all the greek ( or hebrew, whichever.) lettering. cons use of english translations helped him win.