The Instigator
philosphical
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
comoncents
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

Lyoto Machida has an advantage over Mauricio shogun.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/13/2009 Category: Sports
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,733 times Debate No: 9681
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (20)
Votes (4)

 

philosphical

Pro

Please dont accept yet, i have to post my argument. Also would you like to be pro or con for this?
comoncents

Con

Debating:
Lyoto Machida has an advantage over Mauricio shogun.

I am con:
I am going to go on the premise that Lyoto Machida does not have an advantage. But it is equal if not advantage shogun.

I would like to thank philosophical for posing a debate about the UFC, something I think should have taken place earlier.

1. Defending
Lyoto Machida is the light heavy weight champion in the ufc and is defending his title for the first time.

The light heavy weight title is the second most title to change hand with ten fighters laying claim to winning it. It has only been defended by 4 people making it a disadvantage to the person defending it.
Shogun is coming in with no added pressure, where as lyoto has never defended a title in his entire career.
-Advantage shogun-

2. Bjj
Lyoto has a black belt in Brazilian jujitsu (bjj) from the Nogueira brothers, which is a great camp.
Shogun has a black belt in bjj from Nino Schembri, which is not as impressive…. If shogun would not have beaten the man that gave lyoto his black belt.
Shogun beat Antonio Rogerio Nogueira by decision but could not be submitted… so with that being said
-Advantage=tie

3. Record
Lyoto is undefeated, where as shogun is 18-3.
-Advantage lyoto-

4. Competition
Lyoto has notable victories over Stephan Bonnar, Thiago Silva, former UFC light-heavyweight champion Tito Ortiz, former UFC middleweight champion Rich Franklin, current UFC lightweight champion and former welterweight champion B.J. Penn, and former UFC light-heavyweight champion Rashad Evans.
Shogun holds notable wins over such fighters as former UFC light-heavyweight champion Chuck Liddell, former UFC light-heavyweight champion Quinton "Rampage" Jackson, current Strikeforce heavyweight champion. Alistair Overeem, Ricardo Arona (who did not hold a title but beat Wanderlei Silva, Alistair Overeem, Kazushi Sakuraba, Dan Henderson, Guy Mezger, Dean Lister, Murilo Rua), and former 2006 and 2007 Brazilian Super Heavyweight Champion, bronze medal in the 2007 Pan American Games, intern UFC heavyweight champion Antonio Rogerio Nogueira…. Also teacher of lyoto.
-Advantage slightly shogun-

5. Chin
Lyoto has never been proven to take a punch. Granted he has a style that allows him never to get hit.
Shogun has been tested and has never gone down… plus he is known to have the heaviest hands in the light heavyweight division.
-Advantage shogun-

6. Style
Lyoto has the sickest style in the game. It is a mix of shotokan, bjj, judo, and mma. It has never been figured out… but he also has never been punched squarely.
Shogun is a Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu but is a devastating puncher.
-Advantage lyoto-

Shogun has lost one questionable fight with Forrest griffin. "Facing The Ultimate Fighter 1 winner Forrest Griffin, Rua was widely regarded as the top light heavyweight fighter in the world and considered a heavy favorite to win.[17] However, Rua had difficulty with the larger Griffin and became exhausted in the second round of the fight. After losing both of the previous rounds, Rua ultimately succumbed to a rear naked choke in the final seconds of the third round. Some blame his poor cardiovascular fitness on the fact that Rua suffered a knee injury during training for the fight. He re-injured the knee during the fight and had elective surgery afterwards.["
A UFC debut is tough and he did know how to condition for it… but with his last fight where he knocked out chuck Liddell, he looked great.
Condition will not be a factor in this being his 4th fight in the UFC.

I do think lyoto is good, but to say he has the advantage is incorrect.

On paper shogun is 3-2 with one tie, when it comes to what matters in an ufc fight.

I know lyoto is very unique, therefore no advantage to either fighter…
They are both at the same advantage

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Debate Round No. 1
philosphical

Pro

First off I would like to say that is very unfortunate that I could not post my first argument. I hope this debate is interesting and opens up a bigger door for people to start watching this fantastic sport.

With that said I will begin.
I strongly agree that Lyoto "The dragon" Machida has a strong advantage over Mauricio "shogun" Rua
I would like to start by saying that I think Mauricio is an awesome fighter, with amazing victories over some of the best fighters such as Chuck Lidell, Forrest Griffin, and Rampage Jackson, etc. However I think that he is not hardly a match up for his upcoming fight.

PRESSURE
My opponents first point, says that Lyoto Machida is at a dis-advantage due to heavy pressure of defending his title. I would have to dis-agree, and say it is quite the opposite. Machida, after winning a spectacular win over previously undefeated champion, Rashad Evans, has maintained the title. After winning three consecutive fights in a row achieving his title, he would should be feeling VERY confident on the contrary. It should be the opposite seeing as Mauricio is coming in the octagon to get the belt. He has made it this far, and losing would put him back where he started. Losing is most definitely something that would be good for him. Machida, on the other hand, has no reason to believe that he cannot win this fight like he has in the past few UFC fights.

BRAZILLIAN JIE-JITSU
Machida is a second generation Japanese-Brazilian jie-jitsu artist, where-as Shogun is a first generation. This in no way limits shogun, however certain factors apply into each. Machida started training for Brazilian jie-jitsu at age 13. Rua's training however started at the age of 17. Again this in no way limits his JJ abilities, however it also shows that Machida has been more experienced in the area. As my opponent said, Machida trained under the art of Royce Gracie Jie-jitsu, which has been proved to be the most effective Jie-jitsu training program in the world. This would give Machida an also bigger advantage if ground game comes into play.
However, one thing that makes Shogun more efficient, is his ability to hold out a submission. With his exceeding strength, it allows him to pull rear naked chokes, and other such submissions with ease. He has a considerable amount of strength with his submissions.
Machida's skill = higher
+
Rua's reliability on strength = higher.
= Most likely the same advantage.
I am in agreement with my opponent on this one, however the experience factor might make a huge deal of difference if the fight is taken to the ground.

RECORD

Lyoto's record is undisputed. However, there is also to be looked at that Rua has been in more UFC fights than Lyoto. He has a different level of experience.
The amount of wins a person has should not factor into this debate though, because in a fight anything can happen to cause a loss.

COMPETITION
Gotta love wikipedia ;-)

I would have to argue that this would not be an advantage for Rua. Rua has more experience in the octagon, where-as Machida has more experience with MMA. Rua simply being in the octagon longer has given him the opportunity to fight differing, hard opponents. Unlike Machida who is still fairly new to UFC, and has had a considerably less amount of fight time. We couldn't assume that Machida also couldn't bring the same game into a fight with one of Rua's opponents. Another thing to be looked at, is that all of Lyoto's big wins, were from belt holders, where as Rua's were only mainly formers.
I would have to say advantages go to Machida here.

CHIN
This shouldn't factor into an overall advantage of the fight. Machida usually gets hit, 2-3 times each round due to his elusive and awkward style. His main tactic is to wait and see his opponents moves, so he can pace himself to that exact striking movement. This being a factor, shows that if machida's can elude Rua, then it would not matter if Rua has a strong chin or not.

STYLE
Again, gotta love wiki!
I agree entirely with this point though.
However, having more knowledge in more than one area also limits you to the complete focus on one area.
I would say that it would be a good thing and a bad thing for Rua to have less experience in the more than few MMA events. Having only to focus on effective striking, kicking, and submissions, works to his advantage because he has had more training then Machida may have in the other two (not counting jj).
Advantage, slightly Machida.

And as to Rua's loss to griffin in the ultimate fighter. Yes there was a slight advantage in size for Griffin, but what Rua lacked in size, he makes up for with power. While the fight was still standing up, Mauricio displayed an awesome fight. It wasn't until the fight was taken to the ground, that his JJ failed him, and he was brought to an immediate loss to Griffin.
JJ advantage= Machida.

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comoncents

Con

"I would like to start by saying that I think Mauricio is an awesome fighter, with amazing victories over some of the best fighters such as Chuck Liddell, Forrest Griffin, and Rampage Jackson, etc."
I hate to point out semantics, but he did not beat Forrest Griffin.
http://mmadepot.blogspot.com...

PRESSURE
My opponent seems to believe that defending a title does not vi for more pressure then fighting for it… so let me give you one reason why defending this title is harder…
"In the main event of UFC 104 at the Staples Center in Los Angeles CA, Lyoto "The Dragon" Machida will attempt to become the first UFC Light Heavy Weight Champion in two years to defend his title."" It would appear as of late that for a LHW champ holding on to this belt is easier said than done."
http://insidefights.com...
Lets think about it logically.
Would it be tougher to go in with something to lose, and more to gain? (Lyoto)
Or
Would it tougher to go in with nothing to lose, and everything to gain. (Shogun)

Logic tells us that the person who is holding the title has more pressure to defend it then the challenger who is going in with nothing to lose.
The titleholder is at the disadvantage, still having to prove himself even more then the challenger, to show that winning the title was no fluke.
-Advantage con-

BRAZILLIAN JIE-JITSU
"I am in agreement with my opponent on this one, however the experience factor might make a huge deal of difference if the fight is taken to the ground."
So we agree
-Advantage no one-

RECORD

"However, there is also to be looked at that Rua has been in more UFC fights than Lyoto."
He is just proving that my fighter has more experience in the ufc then his…

"The amount of wins a person has should not factor into this debate though, because in a fight anything can happen to cause a loss."
But in a fight experience does matter. You have given my fighter the edge here.
Believing that records are "not a factor" is not a stance. I can believe that vampires exist, but it does not make it true.
My opponent uses words like "should" in phasing that he is going on belief… lets go on logic.
It is logical for the fighter with more experience in the realm of the fight to have the advantage…
I gave the advantage to his fighter here… but upon further review, my opponent has only hurt his pro argument and solidifying a position of con.
-Advantage no one-

COMPETITION

"Another thing to be looked at, is that all of Lyoto's big wins, were from belt holders, where as Rua's were only mainly formers."
Lyoto only hold a single win over a belt holder and that is B.J. Penn. Bj is a lightweight, as lyoto was a heavy weight for that fight. Lyoto still could not knockout a substantially smaller opponent. For the fight Machida fought at a weight of 102 kg (220 lb). Penn weighed in at 86.5 kg (191 lb), the largest bj has ever been in his life, and now he holds the 155lb title belt… so to say that lyoto's wins come from belt holder is false.
Shogun also hold a win over a champion, Alistair Overeem is Strikeforce Heavyweight Champion.
So advantage still shogun.
He has fought more "big name" than lyoto has,
I would have to say advantages go to shogun here, and I have shown that lyoto does not deserve the advantage.
-Advantage con-

CHIN and STYLE

"This shouldn't factor into an overall advantage of the fight."
So the ability to take a punch holds no water in a fight… logically, you are wrong.
"Machida usually gets hit, 2-3 times each round due to his elusive and awkward style. His main tactic is to wait and see his opponents moves, so he can pace himself to that exact striking movement."
This also gives him a disadvantage in the knockout department. Lyoto has only 3 knockout from strikes in his entire career.
Shogun has 15 knockouts to his name.
And I still gave "the style" to your fighter, but look at the legitimate knockouts (from a strike not cuts or Exhaustion) shogun has a lot more, and has never been knocked out… lyoto has still questionability never been hit hard… so the advantage in the chin department would go to shogun because he has been hit… by some of the hardest punchers.
Logically:
If we went into a pizza eating competition and you have never eaten a pizza in your life… and I have eaten pizza professionally all of my eating career, who has the advantage.
-Advantage con-

"And as to Rua's loss to griffin in the ultimate fighter. "
It was not in the ultimate fighter (it was UFC 76: Knockout), and in the first paragraph you told me that my fighter beat griffin… I am starting to question whether or not you have real UFC knowledge.

"JJ advantage= Machida."
It is funny that you fail to remember things that you just wrote down… you are saying here that you fighter has the advantage Jiu Juitsu, but you just wrote in the second fight topic that they were tied in Jiu Juitsu .
"Machida's skill = higher
+
Rua's reliability on strength = higher.
= Most likely the same advantage.
I am in agreement with my opponent on this one, however the experience factor might make a huge deal of difference if the fight is taken to the ground."

I do not question that you know about ufc, but I would have to question your knowledge of advantages.
You have clearly blurred the lines in this debate and are shooting in from all over the place. Your mix-ups and wrongful knowledge of UFC facts leads me to the conclusion that you are not at a proper level as to make predictions on who has the advantage in a fight.

I, on the other hand, have shown to be very knowledgeable in UFC history and have been extremely bipartisan in making my case.

I would further add that I am not giving my fighter the advantage I have just proved that you fighter does not have it.

Advantage is the same… lyoto does not have it and you have failed to prove that he does!

Vote con

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Debate Round No. 2
philosphical

Pro

Forrest Griffin did win that in the UFC. I was reffering to the first fight that took place in the Ultimate Fighter.

PRESSURE

"Let's think about it logically.

Would it be tougher to go in with something to lose, and more to gain? (Lyoto)
Or
Would it tougher to go in with nothing to lose, and everything to gain. (Shogun)"

What we need to realize here is that Lyoto has held the belt, after accomplishing astonishing victories, most of which have ended in the very first round of the fight. He would not have any more pressure than he would have after the last three fights.
When one loses a belt, they are simply placed behin the new belt holder in ranking, and will get a shot at the title again sooner than later. IF Lyoto loses, re-gaining the title would take no more than maybe two or three more wins.

Noq we analyze shogun. He is coming into a fight that he has worked and trained towards for a long time. Him, getting to the belt means that if he doesn't win this fight, he is back to where he started. It would take him at the most another year or two before having the shot at the title again. Risking this, would be harmful to shogun's career. All in all, it would be very bad for shogun to lose this fight.
Advantage goes to pro

RECORD
"He is just proving that my fighter has more experience in the ufc then his…"

Yes this is correct. I did this to show that i am not totally closed minded to the fact that shogun is a tough fighter, and having more experience in the octagon, may work to his advantage.

Next my opponent argues my point on saying "The amount of wins a person has should not factor into this debate though, because in a fight anything can happen to cause a loss".

I personally don't understand the argumentation here, seeing as i was supporting shogun in this argument. Basically what i was saying is that Shogun has not lost alot of fights at all. Machida has not lost any fights. This is going to be a very even match up, and i don't think Shogun's losses would effect his winning advantages in any way. By my opponent arguing this, we must be lead to believe that he supports that undisputed wins, mean an advantage.
This being considered, according to my opponent,
advantage goes to Lyoto.

COMPETITION

B.J. Penn was only one belt holder in which Machida gained victory over. Whether the fight between the two was fair or not is for another debate. The plain and simple point being that there are other belts machida has taken.
Let me name off the opponents that Lyoto has claimed belts from
1. Thiago Silva (Light heavy weight belt holder)
2. Rich Franklin ( Middle weight belt holder)
3. BJ Penn (Light weight belt holder)
4. Rashad Evans (Light heavy weight belt holder)

This is four belt holders that Machida has beaten, whereas Shogun has only taken the belt From Alistair Overeem.
My opponent claims that BJ Penn was the only belt holder Lyoto has beaten, but this information is incorrect.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Advantage, Machida.

CHIN AND STYLE

"So the ability to take a punch holds no water in a fight… logically, you are wrong"

Not in the case when we are talking about an elusive fighter, who's style is strike and evade, or also known as 'snake tactics'. His chin is also withstanding of hits too, as has been seen in many fights.

""opponents moves, so he can pace himself to that exact striking movement."
This also gives him a disadvantage in the knockout department. Lyoto has only 3 knockout from strikes in his entire career.
Shogun has 15 knockouts to his name.And I still gave "the style" to your fighter, but look at the legitimate knockouts (from a strike not cuts or Exhaustion) shogun has a lot more, and has never been knocked out… lyoto has still questionability never been hit hard… so the advantage in the chin department would go to shogun because he has been hit… by some of the hardest punchers."

Knock-out can't be considered here. Machida has the same exact possibility of a knock-out, that Shogun has. I can't regard this argument though when referring to a fighter like machida, who can dodge most heavy hits like shoguns. He hasn't fought Rampage Jackson, but that doesn't mean he can't take a hit. Also note that Tito Ortiz, another fighter who packs ultimate hard punches that have knocked out many geat fighters in the past, failed to even phase Machida.
The whole point, is that Machida is elusive, and being hit isn't as much of a factor, especially when reffering to KO.

Advantage pro.

"It was not in the ultimate fighter (it was UFC 76: Knockout), and in the first paragraph you told me that my fighter beat griffin… I am starting to question whether or not you have real UFC knowledge."

Obviously you have not watched Ultimate fighter. This fight was first within training, and they were selected to fight each other. If YOU had real UFC knowledge, you would have known that there was more than fight that had taken place between the two, and that the UFC isn't the only place where MMA fight s take place.

"It is funny that you fail to remember things that you just wrote down… you are saying here that you fighter has the advantage Jiu Juitsu, but you just wrote in the second fight topic that they were tied in Jiu Juitsu"

Re-reading the argument, you would find that i specifically referred to Machida having an advantage in experience, which you agreed to personally. It all varies and energy levels, because again, shogun has the submission holding adavantage. Advantage Machida.

My opponent has said that i lack UFC knowledge several times in this debate. However i would have to say it's quite the contrary. UFC knowledge goes way beyond just looking at statistics and records from just UFC.
My opponent, does not include that there are advantages that spring from MMA fights, JJ tournaments, MT tournamets, Judo tournaments, and other trainings, such as the Ultimate fighter.
Just because the Lyoto Machida hasn't been in the Octagon as long, in no way proves that he doesn't have the same fighting history.
I think my opponent has offered up a fun and challenging debate.
Thankyou comoncents.
I Urge the voters to vote PRO.
-philosophical

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comoncents

Con

PRESSURE
"What we need to realize here is that Lyoto has held the belt, after accomplishing astonishing victories, most of which have ended in the very first round of the fight."

You say most fights end in first round knockouts… he has 5 ufc fights… 2 of them were knockouts, and only one of them were in the first round… not "most of which have ended in the very first round of the fight."

"He would not have any more pressure than he would have after the last three fights."
The only pressure he had in the other 3 fights were not to let his undefeated status get away…
Now he has his undefeated status along with not allowing himself to lose the belt. It equates to more pressure then before.

Pressure is a huge advantage and I must again add that shogun has the advantage… he has nothing to lose… working your way up to the top is not losing your statues… that's what the fight game is all about. Working your way to the top is something shogun is good at, he has no pressure.

"When one loses a belt, they are simply placed behind the new belt holder in ranking, and will get a shot at the title again sooner than later."
This is not true, it is opinion. Evidence shows that when a fighter loses the belt he must work even harder to get another shot. Fans do not want to see a fight that just took place unless the fighter that lost the belt works his way back into their hearts… same with a challenger… that's why people want to see Dan Henderson fight Anderson Silva again, instead of Franklin (who lost the belt to Anderson)
Advantage goes to con

COMPETITION

"B.J. Penn was only one belt holder in which Machida gained victory over."
Bj is a lightweight… lyoto was a heavy weight…

Let me name off the opponents that Lyoto has claimed belts from
"1. Thiago Silva (Light heavy weight belt holder)"
Never held a title
"2. Rich Franklin (Middle weight belt holder)"
Was just getting started when lyoto beat him. And he was at a smaller weight class.

"4. Rashad Evans (Light heavy weight belt holder)"
The only other legit one… but shogun has more title holders

Shogun
Quinton "Rampage" Jackson won the light heavyweight
Alistair Overeem is a champ now
Antonio Rogerio Nogueira had the ufc heavy weight interim champ

My guy actually beat people champions in his weight class or above… not under sized guys…

Advantage shogun with out dispute.

CHIN AND STYLE

Lyoto has a elusive style but he has never fought anyone with hands as heavy as shogun…
Tie

My quote----
"It was not in the ultimate fighter (it was UFC 76: Knockout), and in the first paragraph you told me that my fighter beat griffin… I am starting to question whether or not you have real UFC knowledge."
Your quote----
"Obviously you have not watched Ultimate fighter. This fight was first within training, and they were selected to fight each other. If YOU had real UFC knowledge, you would have known that there was more than fight that had taken place between the two, and that the UFC isn't the only place where MMA fight s take place."

You have things extremely mixed up.

In the first paragraph of you argument you state that my fighter beat griffin.
Now you are implying that they fought in the ultimate fighter season one.

They never met until there fight at ufc 76… what are you talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

You are really mixed up…
It shows that you really cannot speak as an expert on who has advantage
(By the way I watch every season of tuf and have them on DVD.)

"Re-reading the argument, you would find that i specifically referred to Machida having an advantage in experience, which you agreed to personally. It all varies and energy levels, because again, shogun has the submission holding advantage. Advantage Machida."
Would this not bring about a tie?

"My opponent has said that i lack UFC knowledge several times in this debate. However i would have to say it's quite the contrary. UFC knowledge goes way beyond just looking at statistics and records from just UFC."

Your first and second sentence suggest that you have more UFC knowledge then I have… yet in your third sentence you seem to have to mention the UFC knowledge goes further then statistics…
Giving way that you think I know more statistics then you do… in turn allowing for me to have a better chance of predicting advantages.

Conclusion and the winning paragraph.
-I am a extreme fan of lyoto and shogun. I have been following their fights for years and cannot wait to see them fight.
-My opponent has positioned himself in saying that lyoto has the advantage, but fails to really prove his hypothesis. We went back and forth and proved that both of these fighters have ups and downs, advantages and disadvantages. Really only concluding that neither have THE advantage over the other.
-As con I did not need to prove that shogun had an advantage over lyoto but to prove that lyoto did not have the advantage.
-He does not, but I would agree that it is a tie as far as advantages… so con wins.
-Vote con.

"I think my opponent has offered up a fun and challenging debate."
Dude. It was great, but not as great as the fight will be.

-Vote con.

I will be watching and thank you for having this debate. I wish you the best and thank you again, a lot of fun.

-Vote con.
Debate Round No. 3
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
5 fights by unidi
2 by knck out

5+2=7

only one were from the first round.

that what i was saying.

7 ufc fights
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
I mean, i don't just make stuff up...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

lok at the bottom and add it up
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
"Actually i he has 15 fights in the UFC. 5 of which have been knock outs"

he does not have 15 fights "in the ufc", he only has 7. in which 2 were ko's.
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
you said "first round"

that was the key i was pointing out
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
"Lyoto has held the belt, after accomplishing astonishing victories, most of which have ended in the very first round of the fight. He would not have any more pressure than he would have after the last three fights."

You were speaking in context of the ufc when you made this comment so i was taking about your references.

Your reference was also to the first round
If you want to look, he only has 1 KO i the first round and 1 TKO in the 1st round do to a cut.

I am aware of his stats... i am the one who told you about his knockouts in the previous argument.
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
"Lyoto has held the belt, after accomplishing astonishing victories, most of which have ended in the very first round of the fight. He would not have any more pressure than he would have after the last three fights."

you were speaking in context of the ufc when you made this comment so i was taking about your referances.

your referance was also to the first round
if you want to look, he only has 1 ko i the first round and 1 tko in the 1st round do to a cut.

i am aware of his stats... i am the one who told you about his knockouts in the previous argument.
Posted by philosphical 7 years ago
philosphical
"You say most fights end in first round knockouts… he has 5 ufc fights… 2 of them were knockouts, and only one of them were in the first round… "

Actually i he has 15 fights in the UFC. 5 of which have been knock outs
Posted by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
TheSkeptic
it was fun...
i like lyoto, but come on advantage is a tie... until lyoto proves himself the champion by winning his first title he is a really good match up with shogun

tie
Posted by TheSkeptic 7 years ago
TheSkeptic
Aw damn, I wished I could take this (though I agree with PRO)! I'm a MMA fan as well, so if you guys want to wrestle this topic I'm up for it :)
Posted by philosphical 7 years ago
philosphical
Yeah, the UFC is practically the best sport. That would be awesome if more people were enrolled into it
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by philosphical 7 years ago
philosphical
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Vote Placed by comoncents 7 years ago
comoncents
philosphicalcomoncentsTied
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