The Instigator
CaptainDogma
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
DarthVitiosus
Con (against)
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MGTOW movement is good for men

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/2/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,633 times Debate No: 64391
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

CaptainDogma

Pro

Round 1: state your argument for (if you're on the pro side) or against (if you're on the con side) this is a warm up round. We're not participating for points, however it is required to make valid arguments and keep to the subject. This round is intended to be a warm up.

Round 2: Is the rebuttal stage of the argument, where the real debate begins and Pro and Con try to shoot down the other's argument. Pro will go first then Con will be allowed to make their argument.

Round 3: Is the second stage of making arguments, same as round one Pro and Con will state their arguments for the opposing side. This round will be one where participation is everything, and we are actually working for points.

Round 4: Is the second stage of making a rebuttal, where pro and con will try to shoot down the opposing side's previous arguments. The best rebuttal wins.

Point system: The way the points will be distributed here is by who ever come up with best rebuttal. As well as how they conduct themselves, and how well the judges think they performed in this debate. Points will be deducted for drifting far off subject. Trying to use personal feelings to ignore any/all logic argument, as well as any fallacious statements made during this debate. -1 point(s) get taken for any round forfeited by either opposing party, including round 1, however round 1 does not gain any points they can only be taken away. Failure to follow the rules is -3 points off.

Accept the challenge only if you agree to these guidelines, the contender will be taking the position of CON and will make arguments supporting anything AGAINST the discussion. Please follow rules accordingly.
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ARGUMENT:
I think the MGTOW movement is good for men, it helps them to attempt to find confidence with in themselves and to be content with yourself. To not try and put so much happiness in another person and try to rely on them for everything.
DarthVitiosus

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for hosting this debate. As Con, I will show how MGTOW is not good for men. I think it would of been better if my opponent explained what MGTOW was but I will since he hasn't.

I will stick to adding the quick explanation of what MGTOW is based off of one of the leading MGTOW websites.

What is MGTOW:
"M.G.T.O.WMen Going Their Own Wayis a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else[1]"

[1]http://www.mgtow.com...

ARGUMENT:
MGTOW is essentially a self-esteem movement or a "feel good" movement. Therefore by default it is not good for men. MGTOW is a movement that implies someone should take pride in being a man. Why should someone take pride in something they had little choice in being? According to MGTOW's logic, a person should be happy for being themselves. How is that good for anyone? MGTOW is one of the many movements existing on the planet earth which tell people to be proud in what they are rather than what they do. MGTOW tells men to be proud of being men for simply being born men. This is nothing short of an unaccomplished and unearned sense of entitlement movement which encourages self-congratulation to say the least.
Debate Round No. 1
CaptainDogma

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent for accepting my challenge, and giving a frame of reference for what exactly MGTOW is and now we enter the rebuttal stage of the debate and providing a concise argument.

ARGUMENT:
So you say you MGTOW is just about feeling good to be a man? Well I'd like to disagree, I'd argue MGTOW is what you make it, at the root of it it's about trying to find comfort in not being in a relationship or trying to live up to high expectations of everyone else. What's wrong with something that motivates you to have enough confidence in yourself to want to raise your own self esteem instead of going out of your way to find someone else who will do it? I personally believe that to be very psychologically damaging to a person. Your whole view of yourself shouldn't come from just what other people think of you, but you should try to have a positive view of yourself as well. A common reason men go MGTOW is because of not 1 but many relationships and a failed marriage or 2 maybe even more. It's not about being proud to be born your gender, it's about being comfortable with yourself in general. MGTOW preaches men should opt out of most relationships because of the opposite sex's sense of entitlement. i.e. my wallet, a home, and all the say so of what to do with the child if we have one, and all I'm getting is the satisfaction of knowing I'm with you, because society says I should appreciate the fact I'm with anyone, because the odds are stacked up against men when it comes to things like the law. It's men going through life their own way and ignoring society norms. Like males shouldn't cry and adhere to everyone woman's high standards.
DarthVitiosus

Con

ARGUMENT:
My opponent has disagreed with the statement "MGTOW is just about feeling good to be a man."Did my opponent not say that MGTOW was about confidence and being content with yourself?

"I think the MGTOW movement is good for men, it helps them to attempt to find confidence with in themselves and to be content with yourself. To not try and put so much happiness in another person and try to rely on them for everything."

If the readers of this debate have not noticed, my opponent hs contradicted himself here.

" Your whole view of yourself shouldn't come from just what other people think of you, but you should try to have a positive view of yourself as well."

Wrong, your value is strictly determined by others. The value of your labor is determines your income. The value of your listening skills determines if people seek to tell you their problems. The value of your personality determines whether there will be five people or five thousand people attending you funeral when you die. Everything of significance is determined by other people.

"MGTOW preaches men should opt out of most relationships because of the opposite sex's sense of entitlement."
And what makes my opponent believe men are not entitled? I would argue most people in modern America are entitled. They have the ability to get what they want with little to no effort without any real hardship. Then my opponent continues to make claims that women are entitled at the same time suggesting men are not. I would argue people without any sense of hardship want everyone else in the world to treat them as their parents did. This is unrealistic and a modern phenomena that exists among men and women.
Debate Round No. 2
CaptainDogma

Pro

MGTOW is a natural reaction to a real situation; it is the conscious realization of a naturally existing phenomenon.

Humans walk away from unprofitable actions.



Marriage, of the equivalent, is now a dangerous burden, and a liability to men at least that's how it is in modern times, as the laws are stacked against men in things like marriage.

Feminism set out to achieve this, and they got it.

I doubt groups like feminists realized that by reducing the value of women to men, that men would, at some point, just walk away.

But that is just one aspect of MGTOW.
When a man walks away from women, he's walking away from state interference with relationships.
He walks into a life that allows him to work less, and keep more.
What he does keep, fewer people can take from him on a whim.

More than just women, he's walking away from a corrupted state and society, that expect him to be a compliant host for parasites.

All he is doing is acting on his own, measurable, objective reality.

If marriage became a safe, viable, profitable proposition for men, MGTOW might stay as a means of dealing with other crap society expects of men, but they'd relax on the single status part of it.
DarthVitiosus

Con

I think MGTOW is a response to the current wave of feminism. The current wave of feminism with tumblr feminists with entitlement complexes, political correctness issued controlled by Marxist-like feminists, and feminists searching for alleged "sexism" in video games is nothing short of extremism spewed by zealots. MGTOW is a response to this. As a response to the current wave of feminism MGTOW is just about as extreme.

MGTOW declares that men should go their own way just as MGTOW means "Men Going Their Own Way." However, what premise do they have that previously men weren't going their own way? MGTOW appears to be men who feel entitled to having women behave a certain way.
Debate Round No. 3
CaptainDogma

Pro

Here's my rebuttal:


MGTOW is a response to this. As a response to the current wave of feminism MGTOW is just about as extreme.

Just as extreme? What MGTOW preaches is for more men to grow more self-aware and realize when they're in a bad situation, when there's more to lose than there is to gain. That's the whole purpose of a movement, is to get a particular group of people moving towards something, in this case, it's to get men to move away from relationships where they have nothing to gain, to try and become more what they want to be, not what every stereotype in society says they should be. If MGTOW were really "just as extreme" there'd be a mass call for the genocide of anyone who doesn't immediately subscribe to it, but if you actually look around, real MGTOW don't care. They just want to spread their philosophy and experiences, like the feminists... But to what end? To end the common traps and pit falls in life men usually seem to hopelessly fall into.



MGTOW declares that men should go their own way just as MGTOW means "Men Going Their Own Way." However, what premise do they have that previously men weren't going their own way?

People follow social norms without question, like they're drones pre-ordained to do whatever they're told whenever they're told to do it. Marriage use to mean something way back, but it's not the same anymore, men weren't going their own way, they were going the way society expected them to. It's different now, marriage has more to lose than to gain for men these days, so they should go their own way, find a way that works better until they figure everything out.

MGTOW appears to be men who feels entitled to having women behave a certain way.

NO THAT'S WRONG!

I think you might have it the other way around, the reason men choose to go MGTOW is because the opposite sex expects them to behave a certain way. While they are free to behave however they see fit, be it something comforting for the man or not. That is NOT the equality these said women preach! Perhap you heard of the "nice guy?" he's a male who's raised by women and told only to believde women, and brought up to believe women are never wrong because of gender. He's told by these females that a guy with his characteristics is desirable and what men should aspire to, but when they do they're called inadequate and shamed for wanting to live up to what he thinks a female would like. Most men are told throughout most their lives that they should always want to appease women, and rarely think of themselves. That's why MGTOW wakes men up and tells them to get it together and start going their own way, and to stop trying to put all their self-worth in anything with a vagina. Men are damned for trying to make females happy, and damned if they don't, but at least if they don't they can work on trying to make themselves happy! I don't see why that's wrong. MGTOW see something they don't like and they avoid it, which is what common sense would say is a reasonably logical response. The whole of the MGTOW group seems to constantly get compared to radical feminists, but it's funny these people seem as though they do or don't realize they're acknowleding rational ones exist, but putting MGTOW under the same umbrella of the radicals in their group. Are they saying all MGTOW are irrational because of their choices? It would further add to this one point, men seem to get casted under the same flag a lot without a moment's hesitation, they're expected to not feel a kind of way about things, and that's okay, if it weren't for things like that and more would the MGTOW movement need to exist? I don't think so... Women have rights that are fairly equal to men, but the movement still exists. So what makes it anymore different than that? One wants to deal with the other sex, but wants some superiority, the other is opting out of dealing with the other, to find a new out look on life, and a way to deal with things, to find comfort and peace with being themselves, and with only themselves.
DarthVitiosus

Con

ARGUMENT:
"Humans walk away from unprofitable actions."

Not true. Victims of slavery or human trafficking don't walk away from unprofitable actions[1]. People also tend to value businesses that have negative earning because they receive some visceral benefit[2].

[1]http://www.polarisproject.org...
[2]http://www.dummies.com...

"Marriage, of the equivalent, is now a dangerous burden, and a liability to men at least that's how it is in modern times, as the laws are stacked against men in things like marriage."

This is one of the reasons why I claim that MGTOW is an entitlement movement MGTOW advocates are under the belief that marriage was not a liability to men. I disagree with this profusely. Men don't need marriage. Women need marriage because they become pregnant and bear children. Men do not become pregannt nor bear children so there benefits from marriage are insignficant compared to the woman's benefits. Marriage allows partners to merge their assets andprofits together for a common purpose. Men have always recieved far less benefits from these relationships due to the biological differences between men and women. Therefore, marriage has always been more burdensome on men compared to women.

"When a man walks away from women, he's walking away from state interference with relationships.
He walks into a life that allows him to work less, and keep more.
What he does keep, fewer people can take from him on a whim."

Why does a man need to join a movement in order to do what he wishes?

"All he is doing is acting on his own, measurable, objective reality."

This is contradictory argument on the part of my opponent. He claims men should act on their own at the same time they should disavow feminism. If a man wants to embrace modern feminism, why shouldn't he? Is he not acting on his own?

"If marriage became a safe, viable, profitable proposition for men, MGTOW might stay as a means of dealing with other crap society expects of men, but they'd relax on the single status part of it."

What would make a safe and sane marriage? If we observe my opponent's arguments, he has not shown how MGTOW offers any practical solutions to the things he has declared as problems. Instead, my opponent has suggested that we just go our own way. How is going our own way solving anything? Turning our back on a problem does not fix the problem. MGTOW is not good for men because it is simply a state that "we are men going our on way." MGTOW does not offer solutions or even a practical understanding of the problems of which they are reacting to. Notice not once in any of my opponent's arguments does he show how MGTOW offers any solutions.MGTOW is a reactionary entitlement fit for men who are proud of being men simply because of the fact they are born men. MGTOW is not good for men nor is any other movement that encourages an unearned sense of entitlement.

If you believe MGTOW is not good for men after reading these arguments, Vote Con please. Thanks to my opponent for hosting this debate.
Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by CaptainDogma 2 years ago
CaptainDogma
I'd like to thank my opponent for a good debate, and respecting the rules.
Posted by CaptainDogma 2 years ago
CaptainDogma
Men Going Their Own Way
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
One question. What does it stand for?
Posted by CaptainDogma 2 years ago
CaptainDogma
Oh? Well then don't take too long and I'll look forward to your arguments. Just be sure to follow the rules accordingly.
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
I may accept f this is still up later, That sentence you posted at the end of round 1, would barely qualify as an argument.
Posted by CaptainDogma 2 years ago
CaptainDogma
Thank you for your interest and it'd be funny having you play devil's advocate, but I really want to butt heads with a true opposition, who isn't afraid to step up to the plate and throw down a real good argument. hopefully soon there will be one with confidence, that'll actually make me think and provide a good show for the judges and anyone else who spectates.
Posted by intellectuallyprimitive 2 years ago
intellectuallyprimitive
This is a wonderful topic and you have already assumed the position as Pro, which I would gladly take, albeit I am tempted to accept as Con and argue devils advocate.
No votes have been placed for this debate.