(MIG Tournament) Conservative Showdown #2: Gold Standard
| Started: | 7/30/2012 | Category: | Politics |
| Updated: | 9 months ago | Status: | Post Voting Period |
| Viewed: | 1,612 times | Debate No: | 24921 |
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Resolved: The U.S. should implement the gold standard for its monetary system. Definitions Gold Standard: The system by which the value of a currency was defined in terms of gold, for which it could be exchanged. Rules 1. No new arguments or evidence in the last round 2. Drops are not concessions, but can be evaluated as independent voters 3. FF = loss Good luck to my friend Roy! I accept the challenge. We agree on most things so finding a topic was difficult. I'm looking forward to a good debate. |
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C1: The Austrian Business Cycle, Depressions, and the Gold Standard (TGS) [1] Rothbard writes, Without bank credit expansion, supply and demand tend to be equilibrated through the free price system, and no cumulative booms or busts can then develop. But then government through its central bank stimulates bank credit expansion by expanding central bank liabilities and therefore the cash reserves of all the nation's commercial banks…Bank credit expansion, by pouring new loan funds into the business world, artificially lowers the rate of interest in the economy below its free-market level. But what happens when the rate of interest falls, not because of lower time preferences and higher savings, but from government interference that promotes the expansion of bank credit? …For businessmen, seeing the rate of interest fall, react as they always would and must to such a change of market signals: they invest more in capital and producers' goods. Investments, particularly in lengthy and time-consuming projects, which previously looked unprofitable now seem profitable, because of the fall of the interest charge. In short, businessmen react as they would react if savings had genuinely increased… So the workers set about to consume most of their new income, in short to reestablish the old consumer/saving proportions. This means that they redirect the spending back to the consumer goods industries, and they don't save and invest enough to buy the newly-produced machines, capital equipment, industrial raw materials, etc. This all reveals itself as a sudden sharp and continuing depression in the producers' goods industries. Once the consumers reestablished their desired consumption/investment proportions, it is thus revealed that business had invested too much in capital goods and had underinvested in consumer goods. The inflationary boom thus leads to distortions of the pricing and production system. Prices of labor and raw materials in the capital goods industries had been bid up during the boom too high to be profitable once the consumers reassert their old consumption/investment preferences. The "depression" is then seen as the necessary and healthy phase by which the market economy sloughs off and liquidates the unsound, uneconomic investments of the boom, and reestablishes those proportions between consumption and investment that are truly desired by the consumers.
And, TGS reduces the harm of the B&B cycle. [2] Since TGS restricts the fiat creation of money and credit, the possibility of the Fed printing money to try and stall the effects of a depression or recession. Intervention from the Fed only masks the symptoms without actually solving the underlying problems, and exacerbates the problems for the future. Empirically this is correct when analyzing the periods of Hoover’s and Bush’s intervention in the market – the following depressions were far worse due to prolonged government intervention. Moreover, the empirics show that even though fractional reserve banking is the main culprit in these cycles, periods of the gold standard have lessened and blunted recessions than those without the gold standard. Thorton writes, The only necessary requirement is that the interventions help to forestall the correction process and that the interventions collectively undermine the ability of the price system and the system of profit and loss to properly reallocate resources. Among all business cycles, few have degenerated into prolonged depressions or recessions. Most business cycles come and go so quickly… What makes the difference between the ordinary business cycle and an extraordinary depression? The one factor that is consistent in all four of the major crises is massive government intervention to address the initial economic crisis. In all four cases, the government responded not in the traditional laissez-faire manner of leaving things alone but instead with policies that attempted to reverse the economic crisis. In the first three major depressions, governments consistently intervened in the economy and made long-term institutional changes in the economy. In the case of the stagflation of the 1970s, the government met the initial crisis with comprehensive wage and price controls and the closing of the gold window, along with a loose monetary policy, deficit spending, and bailouts.
C2: TGS, Deflation and Inflation [3] [4] Deflation Good Kaza writes, If deflation is truly synonymous with contraction, as Keynesians maintain, one would not find periods of negative CPI in expansions. Yet this has occurred at least six times since the Civil War (1879, 1895, 1922, 1928, 1939, and 1955). According to the National Bureau of Economic Research’s business cycle chronology, which dates to 1854, expansions occurred in the U.S. all six years. The Bureau of Labor Statistics (2004) published estimates that show CPI was negative for 11 years in the late nineteeth century, including 1879 and1895. The NBER chronology shows the economy was in expansion for nine months in 1879 and 11 months in 1895 despite a negative CPI both years. Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis data show CPI was negative for 13 years in the twentieth century, including 1922, 1928, 1939, and 1955. The NBER chronology shows the economy was in expansion for 12 months in each of these years. Inflation Bad TGS prevents inflation, and inflation is bad. Shostak writes, Increases in the money supply set in motion an exchange of nothing for something. They divert real funding away from wealth generators toward the holders of the newly created money. This is what sets in motion the misallocation of resources, not price rises as such. Moreover, the beneficiaries of the newly created money--i.e., money "out of thin air"--are always the first recipients of money, for they can divert a greater portion of wealth to themselves. Obviously, those who either don't receive any of the newly created money or get it last will find that what is left for them is a diminished portion of the real pool of funding. Furthermore, real incomes fall, not because of general rises in prices, but because of increases in money supply; in other words, inflation depletes the real pool of funding, thereby undermining the production of real wealth-- i.e., lowering real incomes. General increases in prices, which follow increases in money supply, only point to the erosion of money's purchasing power--although general rises in prices by themselves do not undermine the formation of real wealth as such. C3: TGS reduces the chance of war [5] The great wars of the 20th Century were made possible by the quick halt of TGS during that time period which made financing the wars indefinite. However, comparatively the wars during TGS were small and rare: Lips writes, “The era of the gold standard during the 19th century was the golden age of the white man. During this period, after Napoleon, there were only seven wars of any importance…. Theoretically, the U.S. cannot be warring at all, i.e., under the strict discipline of the gold standard it would not be possible. Because of the nation’s deficit, there would not be any money left to spend on an unproductive and destructive war. The U.S.’s foreign debt is enormous…. And still the U.S. is conducting wars, which it is paying for with paper-ticket-token money…So we may note that if the world were on a gold standard, the U.S. could not be conducting any wars. Why? Because then they would have to pay for them in gold. Gold, therefore, acts as a braking mechanism. Putting on the brakes has a disciplining effect. [3] Kaza. Deflation and Economic Growth C1: The business cycle I agree with Pro on several important issues. With Pro, I reject the notion tat continually expanding the money supply benefits the economy. As Pro contends, that leads to a deepened business cycle in which over-expansion from excessively created money ultimately leads to recession. My point of departure is in using the gold standard as the remedy. The gold standard ties the money supply to mining and exploration technology. If the economy expands at a roughly constant rate and new old is recovered at about the same rate, then the claimed positive effect of the gold standard on the business cycle will be achieved. However, here is nothing requiring the gold supply from expanding at the same rate as the economy, or even at a close approximation. Starting the 1500s Spain imported large quantities of gold from the New World. Since gold was money, thy thought they were rich. The actual result was one of the greatest inflationary episodes in history. Cecil Adams summarizes, "Although prices had dropped steadily during the 1400s, after 1500 they began to rise dramatically — 300 percent by 1600, according to economist Earl Hamilton, who wrote a well-known book on the phenomenon. The reasons for this are complex, but it seems clear that at least in part it was a matter of a sharply increasing amount of money (in the form of silver and gold) chasing a relatively fixed output of goods and services, thus bidding up the price." [1. http://www.straightdope.com...] Gold supplies could increase dramatically due to a technological breakthrough. Only a tiny percentage of the gold on earth has been exploited, so it's there to be extracted. For example, here is a lot of gold in sea water, although no one has figured out an economical way of extracting it. But, "With so many technological advancements, the theory of extracting gold from sea water might turn in to a living reality." [2. http://www.marineinsight.com...] It's not a high probability, but if it happens it would be fatal to a gold standard economy. A group of billionaire high tech investors formed Planetary Resources, Inc. with "plans to send swarms of robots to space to scout asteroids for precious metals and set up mines to bring resources back to Earth." [3. http://www.wired.com...] We don't know their chances of success, but the point is that it's a mistake to build a monetary system that requires that no technological breakthrough be achieved. C2: Threat of deflation Pro established that deflation does not equate to economic contraction, and he cites several short periods when the economy grew despite deflation. There are also many periods when economies grew despite inflation. After devastating inflation, inflation dropped to 3% in 1983. [4. http://en.wikipedia.org... ]Despite 3% inflation the economy boomed. The fact that growth is possible with either modest inflation or modes deflation, neither are good things. The Great Depression is an example of the severe effects of deflation, and another is the recession of 1920-21. We don't know how mining and exploration technology will match up against economic growth. If mining fails to keep up, we will have long term deflation. "Limited gold supply causes deflation. True, inflation is bad, but deflation is even worse. Firms had to lay off workers as price declined. According to the World Gold Council, annual production of gold is about 2,500 metric tons or 80 million troy ounces. This implies that world GDP cannot grow more than about $80 billion (at $1000/oz), had we been on the gold standard today. Thus, the gold standard would cause a severe deflation in the world economy." [5. http://www2.econ.iastate.edu...] The gold standard worked well for a long period from about 1750 to 1900. That's because gold mining kept up with economic growth. We have no good reason to suppose that will e the situation in the future. Right now mining is lagging world growth, so we would expect deflation under a gold standard. A technological breakthrough like asteroid recovery could flip that situation around and produce massive inflation. C3: The chance of war Let's suppose that Pro's claim is true, and " the U.S. cannot be warring at all, i.e., under the strict discipline of the gold standard it would not be possible." If that were true, then the U.S. could not defend itself if threatened or attacked. We would have had to concede World War II and the Cold War. when terrorists struck on 9/11, we would simply surrender, knowing that resistance would be unaffordable. So if Pro's claim is true, it is a fatal defect in adopting the gold standard. However, during the period when the U.S. was on the old standard, it fought the War of 1812, the Mexican War, and the Civil War. The Civil War consumed 13.2% of GDP. The total of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars was about 1.2% of GDP through 2008. [6. http://www.history.navy.mil...] and Since 2008, the GDP and yearly war costs have been roughly constant so the percentage wouldn't change. N1: Using a formula is superior to the gold standard What we would like a monetary system that always matches growth, so there is no inflation or deflation. The Federal Reserve is supposed to control the money supply, but they have traditionally added too much to the money supply. One alternative is proposed by Libertarian economist Milton Friedman, "I have, for many years, been in favor of replacing the Fed with a computer," he adds. Each year, it "would print out a specified number of paper dollars" to augment the money supply. "Same number, month after month, week after week, year after year." [7. http://www.cato.org...] N2: Transitioning to gold is impractical About 5.3 billion ounces of gold have been mined in human history. [8. http://en.wikipedia.org...] The U.S. has 147.2 million oz. troy in it's reserves, about 2.5% of the total. [9. http://en.wikipedia.org...]The U.S. money supply, M3, is about $6 trillion. So to back all U.S. currency with gold using existing reserves, the exchange rate would have to be set at $40,816 per ounce, compared to the present world market price of about $1643 per ounce. The U.S. cannot maintain a price of gold different from the world market price, otherwise gold would flow in the direction of the higher price. Clearly the U.S would have to start buying very large quantities of gold, driving the world price up substantially. Roughly $6 trillion in gold would have to be purchased to back our $6 trillion of money supply since our current supply is only about 5% of what is needed. So where do we get the spare $6 trillion? Creating fiat money doesn't work, because whatever is created has to be backed by gold, so there is no net gain. At this point in history, there is no practical way to make the transition. Propnents of the gold standard have postulated elaborate transistioning schemes, but there is no escaping the need to have full monetary reserves at the world market price, and that's too much to pay. Friedman's proposal to control fiat money gets the advantages claimed for the gold standard, and it can be accomplished seamlessly without the enormous costs. It's too late to tie the monetary system to mining technoogy. Computers are a better alternative. The resolution is negated. |
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C1: The business cycle [1]
The problem with this is that Spain was within the deluded mindset of the time known as overstretch mercantilism. This is when, as noted by my opponent, a mother government tries to siphon as much wealth as possible from its colonies. As we know now the effect was disastrous. But now that we know that this would have terrible effects it would be obvious that the U.S. would not do such a thing. The U.S. is not an imperial power with colonies situated within gold-rich areas. Unlink Spain who controlled approximately 2/3 of the New World at the time, the U.S. is strategically constrained from a policy of overstretch mercantilism. As such, the degree and magnitude of my opponent’s empiric would not apply to the U.S. His second argument is that of sea exploration, but as indicated by my opponent’s source: “No commercially viable procedure for extracting gold from sea water has been identified as yet and doesn’t have much hope in the future. …There is one milligram of gold in a ton of sea water which implies that in order to get one gram of gold a million pounds of water has to be processed, which means to get an ounce you have to process 30 million pounds!” His thiird argument is space exploration, again a highly speculative and improbable feat. However, my following analysis should suffice as a response:
Gold Mining as Self-Correcting “The general rise of prices in the economy (due to inflation) includes the prices of goods in whose production gold enters as an input (essentially all main industries and GDP producing industries). The result is that a unit of gold employed in industrial processes now yields a net return in terms of monetary goll... and this encourages entrepreneurs to allocate additional quantities of the metal to the production of various consumer and capital goods. The resulting increase in the supplies of these gold products eventually drives their prices down and eliminates the discrepancy between the value of gold in monetary and nonmonetary uses.”
Increased Gold Mining “The first criticism is that the supply of gold...depends on such fortuitous factors as discoveries of new mines and technological improvements in the methods of extraction. …oil, copper, wheat, and, for that matter, of all goods produced on the market are influenced by changes in the availability of the natural resources required in their production as well as by advances in technology. Moreover, in the specific case of gold, purely fortuitous discoveries of new gold deposits and of improved methods of extraction have long ceased to have a significant effect on the annual output of gold. The regularization of gold production has resulted from the operation of the market itself.” Essentially, just as other commodities are determined by market forces, such as the fact that companies do not wish to oversupply the market as to decrease the overall value of the commodity, a system under the gold standard would operate according to the same market forces. And, as indicated by the evidence, gold mining is induced not accidental as was the case in the 1500s, like Spain.
My opponent makes the argument that the economy grew despite inflation, and I will not argue that. However, my argument is that comparatively and based on analytic reasoning the economic probability of economic harm is higher with inflation and lower with deflation. The analytic is simple: inflation causes a rapid increase of capital at the top without an immediate trickle-down effect in order to compensate for the rise of prices. Thus, on a whole the bottom is hit worst with inflation. But moreover, my opponent already agreed that inflation and expansion of credit is the culprit of business cycles in the first place. My opponent tries to argue that empirically deflation has been a bad thing, like the great depression. The problem with this analysis is that the deflation leading to the great depression was not true deflation, but rather an economic misrepresentation. The analysis provided by my opponent indicates just that, that deflation was measured only within the decrease of price rather than with a decrease in the money supply. Whereas the Fed tried to inflate, uncontrollable factors such as no multiplier effect (caused by reduction of saved capital) is the reason the money supply shrunk after the fact. In other words, the decrease of overall capital was not the cause, but rather an effect. “Economic growth, defined as an increase in the quantity of goods produced per capita, requires the capital to labor ratio increases in favor of more capital per unit of labor. Capital accumulation must be funded by real investment. However, while nominal investment depends on the quantity of money, real investment does not. Any amount of real investment can take place with any amount of money because prices adjust not only to the quantity of goods but the quantity of money. Economic history also suggests the contrary:...the economy grew faster than the rate of gold mining.” But moreover, Salerno’s study indicates that 90% of the time deflation does not correlate to a depression, while on the other hand inflation is statistically much more likely to be linked with a following depression.
My opponent offers an interesting alternative, however vague and with no really implementation mechanism except with that of changing the Fed with a computer. The problem with this is that it is as open to political manipulation as the Fed is now. Some group of elite economists and government officials must come up with this formal and must also operate the computer. The advantage of TGS is that it is determined by the market itself, not a group of elites. But, his alternative is much to vague and speculative to be a viable counter-plan in this debate.
Second, the objection of my opponent assumes a radical and not gradual shift of fiat to gold. As advocated by Mises, a Conversion Agency can be implemented to ensure protection of intrusion by forces such as the Fed. This agency would be independent and work with other agencies to implement TGS in the future. Third, this resolution is only applicable to the U.S. and since other nations are not returning to the gold standard it is possible for the U.S. to increase its gold supply without having other nations race to buy up more gold.
[1] Gold Standard: True or False. Basic Characteristics [3] http://archive.mises.org...
C1: The business cycle
C3: The chance of war
Pro says that with a gold standard, necessary wars will be possible but unnecessary wars will be impossible, and that's true even if necessary wars cost ten times as much. How does the gold standard know what's necessary? There is no way to tell which wars are necessary and which are not. Elected representatives vote on what is necessary. If Pro is arguing that it is in general harder to raise money for a war of any kind, then than remains a disadvantage of the gold standard, because when the country needs to fight a war for it's survival, the task will be more difficult. I agree that poor judgments can be made about what is “necessary,” but attempting to prevent things that are really necessary is not a cure for that problem.
Because only the US is going to the gold standard, only the US has an unconditional need to buy gold. The rest of the world will sell it, but not cheaply.
Pro gives “oh, don't worry” generalities, but no data on the costs of transitioning. It won't work. |
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My procrastination has killed me and I wont have time to finish this round. I concede. Congrats Roy :) |
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| CiRrK | RoyLatham | Tied | ||
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| Who had better conduct: | - | ![]() | - | 1 point |
| Had better spelling and grammar: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Made more convincing arguments: | - | ![]() | - | 3 points |
| Used the most reliable sources: | - | - | ![]() | 2 points |
| Total points awarded: | 0 | 4 |
| CiRrK | RoyLatham | Tied | ||
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| Who had better conduct: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Had better spelling and grammar: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Made more convincing arguments: | - | ![]() | - | 3 points |
| Used the most reliable sources: | - | - | ![]() | 2 points |
| Total points awarded: | 0 | 3 |
| CiRrK | RoyLatham | Tied | ||
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| Who had better conduct: | - | ![]() | - | 1 point |
| Had better spelling and grammar: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Made more convincing arguments: | - | ![]() | - | 3 points |
| Used the most reliable sources: | - | - | ![]() | 2 points |
| Total points awarded: | 0 | 4 |
| CiRrK | RoyLatham | Tied | ||
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| Agreed with before the debate: | - | - | ![]() | 0 points |
| Agreed with after the debate: | - | - | ![]() | 0 points |
| Who had better conduct: | - | ![]() | - | 1 point |
| Had better spelling and grammar: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Made more convincing arguments: | - | ![]() | - | 3 points |
| Used the most reliable sources: | - | - | ![]() | 2 points |
| Total points awarded: | 0 | 4 |


















I am interested in how you discerned and managed to find out this person's state of knowledge in regards to such a debate, sir...
The purpose of debate is for the debaters to educate themselves on the topic and for readers to learn something from that effort. It accomplishes that, and it's worthwhile just for that. No one here thinks the world is watching DDO in order to set public policy. Well, maybe a few in the forums.
History, politics, art, literatures and such are different, as they are not as technical as the topics you guys are debating on. I mean, do you think you are qualified to debate on the usefulness of the Dominated Convergence Theorem? Or whether or not bootstrapping is a proper method for data mining?
While the debate on using gold standard sounds pretty striaght forward to anyone, the idea behind is extremely complicated. And frankly, you made a few comments that show me you do not possess the necessary knowledge to compete in this debate. Perhaps you should stick with politics and history, and I will gladly join in a debate with you.