The Instigator
Cherymenthol
Pro (for)
Losing
13 Points
The Contender
Puck
Con (against)
Winning
56 Points

Man is born pure and through society he becomes corrupt.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 13 votes the winner is...
Puck
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/24/2009 Category: Arts
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 20,167 times Debate No: 10234
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (33)
Votes (13)

 

Cherymenthol

Pro

Man is by nature good; society is the cause of corruption and vice. However, In society, natural self-love becomes corrupted into a venal pride, which seeks only the good opinion of others and, in so doing, causes the individual to lose touch with his or her true nature; the loss of one's true nature ends in a loss of freedom.
In the words of Rosseau, "Man is by nature good. Men are depraved and perverted by society."

When out into perspective we realize that what could a newborn child have done wrong? Compared to the wretched sins a mere five year old has committed.

Now if Society was not evil would the following list of atrocities occur almost on a regular basis:
Terrorism
Child Pornography
Murder
Holocaust
Genocide
Abuse
Puck

Con

750 chr limit.

Man, at birth is neither good nor bad. To be good as is requires an intrinsic notion of the term. That it is good because it is, it exists as good because it's existence is good.

A thing, action is not good, or bad in and of itself. It is good, or bad in context, in relation to, in evaluation of. To be good it must of good to someone. An intrinsic notion of good, divorces the good from the beneficiary, there is no good for, simply it is good, a child has no evaluative capacity, it simply is.

The next detail asserts some relativistic corruption. There is no valid 'society' here that can corrupt. Individual ideology either stands or falls on its own. I do not murder, so how am I corrupted by some vague collective?
Debate Round No. 1
Cherymenthol

Pro

My opponent's argument is not correct the wording of the resolution is PURE, not good. Also i don't have to discuss the good v. bad because it is nontopical. so extend that men are born pure.

The individual edeologies that compose a certain society is what makes it corrupt, ie drug dealers, murders, pedophiles, rapists, child abusers. Murder is not the only form of curruption, lieing, cheating, sinning, which we are all guilty of consitute corruption. And we learn these things from fellow men, extend the phrase society corrupts.

A child has an evaluative capacity, because we can compare it the expetaions that are expected of it. still because also good and bad must occur to an other person, there is no effect to who being good or ba
Puck

Con

Ah trickery readers, one can tell from my opponents argument what was intended.

A synonym of pure is good. http://thesaurus.reference.com...
"Man is by nature good. Men are depraved and perverted by society."

The two are related concepts, your argument makes that clear. Such profound sophistry should be noted my fellows - no definitions were provided, it rests then on what the arguments lead as to the meanings of the terms.

"The individual edeologies that compose a certain society is what makes it corrupt, ie drug dealers, murders, pedophiles, rapists, child abusers."

My opponent performs the fallacy of the ambiguous collective, stating since individuals can X society must X. Ignoring that an individual =/= collective.
Debate Round No. 2
33 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ournamestoolong 7 years ago
ournamestoolong
WOMAN is born pure and corrupted.
Man is just a douche.
Posted by Cherymenthol 7 years ago
Cherymenthol
in the context of the round i meant that the second the baby enters the new world he begins to be corrupted...
Posted by daniel_t 7 years ago
daniel_t
Mattrodstrom,

My point is that, like other stereotypes, asserting that all children are naturally "pure" or "good" is inappropriate. Children exhibit the entire range of attitudes from very altruistic to very selfish, and everything in between.

IMHO, whatever attitude the child is born with, can (and should) be normalized to some extent but can't be radically altered.
Posted by mattrodstrom 7 years ago
mattrodstrom
Daniel t
Further unless the children are sociopathic and can't feel empathy at all your point that there's a spectrum of feeling doesn't suggest that there are no such tendancies.
Posted by mattrodstrom 7 years ago
mattrodstrom
daniel_t,
Small children also don't speak, but I wouldn't say that language acquisition isn't tied up in their biology. They simply hav'nt developed their natural capability for speach.
Posted by Cherymenthol 7 years ago
Cherymenthol
Yea i probably should have spent more time working on this... i'll do a rematch later or something with anyone else, same time and word parameters?
Posted by Kleptin 7 years ago
Kleptin
There was no debate here.

Conduct: CON. This was blatantly a semantics argument, that Con planned out through, as Con said, trickery. The resolution uses the word "pure", but throughout all R1, Pro kept using the word "good". Then, in R2, he decides to call foul on Con? I don't think so.

Spelling and Grammar: Tie.

Arguments: CON. Con aptly pointed out the flaw in Pro's argument. Character limits less than 3000 tend to yield disappointing debates, few points of substance were made here, especially since Pro decided to argue two resolutions in a two round debate.

Sources: CON. Only two sources were given, a quote and a dictionary definition. Con's definition was key in showing the flaw of Pro's argument. Pro's quote spoke of "Good" and not "Pure", acting as further evidence against his "Pure vs Good" case.
Posted by daniel_t 7 years ago
daniel_t
sociopathic?
Posted by Puck 7 years ago
Puck
Apathetic, indifferent?
Posted by daniel_t 7 years ago
daniel_t
"[Mencius] suggests that people have "good" inherent social tendencies..."

This Mencius apparently didn't work with small children on a regular basis. My wife worked for 23 years taking care of infants and small children, they are by no means, *all* good. Unless Mencius is claiming that the "good tendencies" are so fragile that a child can be stripped of them before he/she can talk, he is wrong.

There are all kinds of children being born, some highly social and empathetic (good) and some strongly asocial and unsympathetic[1], but most are somewhere inbetween.

Here is a good talk on the subject: "Rebecca Saxe: How we read each other's minds"
http://www.ted.com... Note especially her comments on child development.

[1] Oddly, I couldn't find an antonym for "empathetic" in the dictionary...
13 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by brittwaller 7 years ago
brittwaller
CherymentholPuckTied
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Vote Placed by LuisMiguelLuna 7 years ago
LuisMiguelLuna
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Vote Placed by Cherymenthol 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by alto2osu 7 years ago
alto2osu
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Vote Placed by Koopin 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by daniel_t 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by Korashk 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by Kleptin 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by Alex 7 years ago
Alex
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Vote Placed by ac1125 7 years ago
ac1125
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