The Instigator
Angelos
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Nerawkas
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Mankind Does Not Know God's Reason for Creating His Knowledge of Evil in the First Place

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/9/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,025 times Debate No: 69670
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (30)
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Angelos

Pro

This debate is to prove that mankind does not know the reason why God created His knowledge of evil in the first place.

My opponent must be able to provide a reason to why God created His knowledge of evil in the first place. Note the bolded words: first place.

Round 1 is acceptance and you can post your arguments

Agreements





      • Pro and Con believe that the Biblical God exists; the Creator.





      • Pro and Con believe that God created evil.





      • Pro and Con will use the definition of evil stated in this debate.






Definitions





      • Evil (Biblical) - evil against one another; evil against God; calamities.





      • God - Father; Creator; Omnipotent; Omniscient; Spiritual.








---------------------------------

We live in a world where mankind experiences trials, hardships and persecutions. Mankind also experiences the immoral aspects of life. For instance, kidnappings, rape, murder and more. Then, we have the calamities we face in life; earthquake, tsunami, hurricane and more. Both humanity and the forces of the world affects us to the point we are either persecuted or suffering.

This leads to a commonly asked question: Why does evil exists in the first place? Many have said that evil exists because of free-will; evil exists because of Satan; evil does not exists; all sorts of answers.

Mankind does not know the reason why the knowledge of evil, created by God, exists because it was created by God, who decided not to reveal His reason.

Proof of Creation

God created evil, but we do not know His reason. Isaiah 45:7 states that God creates both peace and evil:

"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7 NKJV)

"...I bring prosperity and create disaster..." (Isaiah 45:7 NIV)

"...I make peace, and create evil..." (Isaiah 45:7 ASV)



God clearly said that He created both peace and calamity. Why? What is the reason? We do not know, for God has not revealed His reasoning.


Argument #1 - God's Reason is Unknown

Apostle Paul stated that we have no right to question God:


"But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?" (Romans 9:20)

The verse before that states:

"You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" (Romans 9:19)




Therefore, people questioned God about evil, but Apostle Paul simply told them that we have no rights to question God. We are not able to find the reason why God created evil in the first place according to Romans 9:20, for we cannot question God on why He created evil in the first place.

Argument #2 - Free-Will

Free-will cannot be the reason why evil exists in the first place because God can simply create a world without evil and we can still do what we can do without the knowledge of evil.

This world is called the 'Holy Place' or the 'Holy Kingdom' that many people strive to achieve. Since God can create a place without any evil, why didn't He do that in the first place? It is written:

"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." (Revelations 21:4 NKJV)

This proves that God can remove evil, yet He created evil for a reason. And that reason is only known by God.


Argument #3 - Love

If love is the reason why evil exists in the first place, then it means that God needs evil for His love to be shown. This is debunked by the following verses:

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!" (Romans 9:14)

"Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice." (Job 34:12 NKJV)

"Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity." (Job 34:10 NKJV)

Therefore, God shows His love by not doing evil, for it is impossible for Him to do evil. However, God, Himself, said that He created evil. And there is a reason to why He created evil, but it cannot be for love.


Nerawkas

Con

Firstly, I agree with the supplied definitions of evil and God.

God indeed created all things in the world, evil being included in that creation as stated in the verse you used

"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7 NKJV)

And in here I've also supplied another verse:


"He is the Maker of heaven and earth,

the sea, and everything in them—

he remains faithful forever." (Psalms 146:6 NIV)

God indeed created every thing, good and evil.


Counter-argument #1 - God's Reason is Unknown

When you stated earlier that God's reasoning is unknown and even more so unquestionable, than we shouldn't question God's purpose or reason in creating anything. Instead of asking the question WHY lets try to understand the reason HOW He created evil. Like you stated above, Apostle Paul stated that:

"But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?" (Romans 9:20)

But can we try to understand how? Absolutely! What's the basis of this argument? Christ Himself utilized "parables" or metaphors to help people understand the kingdom of God.


"Then Jesus asked, “What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to? It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds perched in its branches." (Luke 13:18-19 NIV)

The purpose of a parable is not to tell the truth, but to help understand the truth.


So in short, God's reasoning is unknown through the "why" because this is a question to the creator, but when we ask the question "how" it will bring us closer to an understanding of the truth.

Counter-Argument #2 - Free-will and #3 LOVE

You bring up interesting arguments for the basis of a reason to how evil can exist. You stated God has the will to choose either to destroy evil because in Revelations 21:4 He will create a place where it will not exist. God created everything and He can choose to destroy anything as well. I agree with this.

God is not unrighteous, I think if someone adheres to the definition of God mentioned above, they would also agree with that. God also did not create evil through love again, we agree on that.

I agree with your arguments thus far, but the topic of the debate is Mankind doesn't know the reason why God created evil in the first place, and it is now my duty to supply arguments for Mankind does know.



Rebuttal #1


At this point I would like to redefine terms, for the Bible is God's word, it cannot be changed and there are no errors or contradictions found in the Bible, just misinterpretations and lack of understanding.

We must ask instead...

How can Mankind understand God's purpose for creating evil?

When we ask this question we do not question God, we do not go against the teaching of the apostles and lastly, with this understanding we may come to the truth.

"I call on heaven and earth as witnesses today that I have offered you life or death, blessings or curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants will live." ( Duet. 30:19 God's Word Bible)

God gave us a choice between life and death, He told us to CHOOSE, which means we have the free will to choose to do good or bad.

"The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9 Holman CSB)

So God created good and evil so that His creations may choose righteousness to live with Him. He doesn't want any to perish.

You can not distinguish what is good if you do not have anything to contrast it. What is light if there is no darkness? What is good if there is no evil? God willed there to be evil so mankind can distinguish what is good and what is evil, so that man can choose what is good and what is righteous before God's sight so that we may all live.


How evil was created

Evil was created as a by-product of everything righteous. For God created everything and He found it to be righteous:

"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day." (Gen. 1:31 NIV)

As for mentioned earlier God gave a choice for life and death, blessings or cursing, if life was all there was and no death, no evil, God would not need mankind to make a choice. He created it so that mankind can have a chance of salvation.
Debate Round No. 1
Angelos

Pro

Thank you to my opponent for replying. My opponent has declared his agreement that God created evil.

"try to understand the reason HOW He created evil."

My opponent stated that we should understand how instead of why. However, this is not the point of the debate. The point of this debate is to argue that mankind does not know why God created the knowledge of evil. Not how He created evil.


"So in short, God's reasoning is unknown through the "why" because this is a question to the creator,"

Here, my opponent is (probably) admitting that mankind does not know the reason why God created evil. Once again, he goes off-topic by stating the 'how' instead of the 'why'.


"God created everything and He can choose to destroy anything as well. I agree with this."

My opponent agreed that God can destroy anything.

"So God created good and evil so that His creations may choose righteousness to live with Him. He doesn't want any to perish."

"What is good if there is no evil?"

"God willed there to be evil so mankind can distinguish what is good and what is evil"


My opponent clearly said that God created evil for His creations to choose righteousness. My opponent's statement is also declaring that God created evil for people to know the 'new place' that will come to His chosen ones. He also said that God allowed there to be evil. However, the following verses state:

"Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity."
(Job 34:10 NKJV)

"Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice."
(Job 34:12 NKJV)

"Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!" (Romans 9:14 NKJV)

"And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say." (Romans 3:8 NKJV)

If God allowed evil, then it contradicts His reputation as an all-loving being. And if He allowed evil, then we must praise evil and do evil.



"Evil was created as a by-product of everything righteous."

"He found it to be righteous"

Here, my opponent said that evil was created as a by-product of righteousness and evil is good! However, that would mean good is the reason for evil. And we should praise evil because it reveals good. It also shows that God is not the creator of all things, but this is debunked in Isaiah 45:7. My opponent also contradicted himself when he said:

"God created everything"

And

"Evil was created as a by-product of everything righteous."

Which one is it? Did God create evil or was evil created by righteousness? If evil was created by righteousness, then, once again, it shows God is not the Creator of all things. If evil does not exists, why would the Biblical God destroy something that does not exist?
Nerawkas

Con

I have introduced a different approach to the same topic, why did God create evil? When how is asked it brings us closer to the why.


My opponent stated that we should understand how instead of why. However, this is not the point of the debate. The point of this debate is to argue that mankind does not know why God created the knowledge of evil. Not how He created evil.


"How" leads us to the understanding of why God created evil, without the basic understanding of how evil can exist we can not grasp the why.


My opponent clearly said that God created evil for His creations to choose righteousness. My opponent's statement is also declaring that God created evil for people to know the 'new place' that will come to His chosen ones. He also said that God allowed there to be evil. However, the following verses state:

"Fare be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity."
(Job 34:10 NKJV)

"Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice."
(Job 34:12 NKJV)

"Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!" (Romans 9:14 NKJV)

"And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderous reported and as some affirm that we say." (Romans 3:8 NKJV)

If God allowed evil, then it contradicts His reputation as an all-loving being. And if He allowed evil, then we must praise evil and do evil.


My advisory seems to be misunderstanding what I have said, based on the verses used here. I said "God allowed there to be evil" not God is evil, corrupted, or capable of unrighteousness. Obviously God Himself is not perverted, unrighteous, or evil, this is what the above verses support. So therefore the actual question that needs to be addressed is, Does allowing Evil to exist automatically make a person evil? Here is a metaphor...

What's the difference between murder of man vs man and God vs man? When Man vs Man commit murder we judge them. If God murders man (punishment through death) then are we to judge God too?

Indeed the judgment we do is creation vs creation, but we violate when we judge Creation vs Creator. For the conditions of the debate my opponent created the circumstances by defining and underlining protocol.


Pro and Con believe that the Biblical God exists; the Creator.

We can not condemn God for what we believe to be evil, because the creation can not regard judgement on the creator.


Here, my opponent said that evil was created as a by-product of righteousness and evil is good! However, that would mean good is the reason for evil. And we should praise evil because it reveals good. It also shows that God is not the creator of all things, but this is debunked in Isaiah 45:7. My opponent also contradicted himself when he said...


Which one is it? Did God create evil or was evil created by righteousness? If evil was created by righteousness, then, once again, it shows God is not the Creator of all things. If evil does not exists, why would the Biblical God destroy something that does not exist?

God is righteousness, when I said evil was a by-product of righteousness, that righteousness is God. When God created everything in the beginning He created Light and Darkness.

Let's revisit Gen 1:31.


"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day." (Gen. 1:31 NIV)

What does that word good mean? I stated before God saw it to be righteous, God is righteous and He made all things. It's a product of His work, so it righteous. According to Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible I quote:

"All that God made was well-made, and there was no flaw nor defect in it. 1. It was good. Good, for it is all agreeable to the mind of the Creator, just as he would have it to be; when the transcript came to be compared with the great original, it was found to be exact, no errata in it, not one misplaced stroke. Good, for it answers the end of its creation, and is fit for the purpose for which it was designed. Good, for it is serviceable to man, whom God had appointed lord of the visible creation. Good, for it is all for God's glory; there is that in the whole visible creation which is a demonstration of God's being and perfections.."

Henry states that the "good" is in reference to everything was complete. The good and bad where there, and it was complete for the plan He had for what was to come.

God created evil with good, He created it for the plan of His creations, it had to exist for His creations to determine good from bad. He is not unrighteous or corrupt because that would be us, his creation, judging Him the Creator. When you understand how evil was created, it had to exist for salvation, you can then begin to understand why - It was created from the very beginning alongside everything else.
Debate Round No. 2
Angelos

Pro

Angelos forfeited this round.
Nerawkas

Con

Nerawkas forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Angelos

Pro

Angelos forfeited this round.
Nerawkas

Con

Nerawkas forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Angelos

Pro

Angelos forfeited this round.
Nerawkas

Con

Nerawkas forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
30 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Andrea39 2 years ago
Andrea39
I must say this debate started out strong and Spirit led but you guys are letting "you" take control :) as a fellow believer and one who is enjoying the challenging wisdom and discernment, take a deep breath and let him lead:) you have the opportunity to educate so make sure it's Him giving the answers
Posted by Lavu13 2 years ago
Lavu13
@grig5301

The debate is about mankind unknown knowledge of God's reason in creating evil

Not HOW evil came about :)
Posted by grig5301 2 years ago
grig5301
We need to understand that God created all things in heaven and the earth. When the fall came in Gen.3 evil entered. Now God worketh in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil.2:13). So our "free will is His will, which is to do of His good, emphasize good pleasure, not evil pleasure. Now the reference to Is.45:7 is correct, God did explain, v.7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." But it also says in v.9 "Woe unto him that striveth (argue, question) with his Maker! Let the potsherds(man, human) of the earth strive with the potsherds(man, human) of the earth. Shall the clay (man) say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?" All the way from Isaiah v.7-13, God is explaining His greatness and power. Yes, he is all powerful, righteous, and merciful. We can't mistake when things happen it is God's fault, it is because o the fall when evil stepped in and the nature of man is evil. It also says we have ALL sinned and come short of the glory of God, so no matter we can't just blame someone who takes another life a sinner, we are all sinners and God has given us a path through His son to be forgiven of our sins. We have to understand that God does create all things but it is the nature of man that evil continues to dwell.
Posted by Angelos 2 years ago
Angelos
The challenge has been accepted by Nerawkas. Good luck to my opponent and I hope the viewers will find this debate interesting.
Posted by Lujain_MAB 2 years ago
Lujain_MAB
I've to say that I do not think that God created his knowledge, but merely created evil. To my considerable knowledge in my own religion, I think not knowing is actually a part of what strengthens or weakness the faith. No one knows the exact answer, but we can all wonder, try to answer and question with no real satisfaction of other beliefs and ideas that we don't already own. What feels right to us, would be right for us. My religion implies that some questions we cannot answer, and that the knowledge will remain solemnly to God and whomever he chose to give this knowledge to. You can trace back to the first time evil was created, and find the consequences of not creating evil. There wouldn't be passion or faith, because all the things that keep us going: hope, fear, peace, love, hate, evolution, cures, knowledge and inspiration would be gone; these all are related to faith; we can find light from darkness and vice versa. These things shape us, but we decide on who we want to be. Had we not known evil, we would not have known good; we would just be - kind of like animals; we'd be guided by instincts. The world did not start from destruction because we came and destructed it, then we tried to fix it by destructing it and the circle goes on till it does not. The first evil was created, and thus the evil that remains today.
Posted by a_janis1 2 years ago
a_janis1
Yes, but did God come down at that moment and say the exact Aramaic word for "create"? Well no. The prophets were simply conveying how they understood God's message. That is why the Church has the Magisterium. The Magisterium's sole job is to interpret the divine scripture (The Bible). Furthermore, literal interpretation of the Bible came about during the Protestant reformation. So the Bible was never intended to be taken entirely literally. There are some things in the Bible that are literal and some things that are not. The Magisterium determines that God does not create evil. Evil is not a created thing. Rather evil is an absence of the good that God has created.
Posted by Angelos 2 years ago
Angelos
@philochristos

The last question, I don't exactly know how He did it, but I do understand what you are asking. However, I would say that God created everything the way He wanted to. For instance, God creates the knowledge of disobedience and places it into evil. He had no knowledge in the beginning, which is why He started to make knowledge with the power He has, which is being able to create anything.
Posted by philochristos 2 years ago
philochristos
You don't think God created himself, do you? Clearly "all things" refers to things that actually came into existence. If God created his own knowledge, then there must've been a state of affairs in his existence in which he had no knowledge. But if God once had no knowledge, how could he have known how to create it?
Posted by Angelos 2 years ago
Angelos
@philochristos

God is the Creator of all things; everything. He, Himself, created the knowledge of all things the way He wants to. If such knowledge has always existed, then it means God did not create them and He is not the Creator of all things.
Posted by philochristos 2 years ago
philochristos
I'm still confused about your argument, though, because Isaiah 45:7 says that God creates evil/calamity/disaster, not that God creates his own knowledge of evil/calamity/disaster. If you subscribe to the Biblical view of God, doesn't that entail that God is essentially all-knowing? If God has always been all knowing, then his knowledge wasn't created at all. His knowledge of all things, including evil, has always existed.
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