The Instigator
Pro (for)
The Contender
Con (against)

Mankind is the incarnated race of Holy and Unholy Angels

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ApostolicTransfer has forfeited round #5.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/15/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 167 times Debate No: 94752
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
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There is a case of irreducible complexity found in scripture when studied line upon line precept upon precept as instructed from the prophet Isaiah that goes right into Zion/1st estate/heaven and the problem in that estate prior to to the Genesis creation.


My opponent has not given any reason as to why he has come to this conclusion, nor has has he clearly stated what the Bible passage says. I can be the con to this argument simply by saying there is a lack of supporting evidence that either proves or indicates that the content in the Bible is 100% true, thus invalidating my opponent's claim.
Debate Round No. 1


The God of The bible is true in that there is an esoteric or supernatural constant all humanity can observed that links to the establishment of Israel as a nation which surpasses the purview of what humans call "science".

John Hagee noticed 4 red moons and wrote a book believing it was the end of the world. He was wrong.
Moreover there is other things pertaining to these red moons Few ever touch upon.

We are not talking some partial shade of red or lunar anomoly, we are talking about 100% full tetrad.
If any human has seen a *full red moon they are lucky because there have only been 8 tetrads in 2000 years. The New Testament age. These 4 consecutive red moons only fall on Israel's holidays,
Rash hashanna, Passover, Feast of trumpets, etc... So even when Israel had their exodus and by some chance
this group of slaves started their holidays on what are known to this culture as a Bloodmoon, we cannot start thousands of years ago and predict them, that is the bloodmoons that make up the tetrad strictly landing on Israel's established holiday dates over all time from that recorded era. This most consistent cosmological constant known to man Proves the establishment of Israel with a means surpassing "Science" which now in this debate is proven not to posses the ability of objectivity to answer all things from a current worldview. You now must embrace the reality of meta physical Intelligence correlating straight back to Biblical Israel. It would be by definition, supernatural, unless of course those were "phsychic slaves". Let me know if you would like a video presentation.


My opponent in no way shape or form links any of his arguments to the title of this debate, and only seems to be following the blood moon prophecy.

Simply put, your claims clearly follows the fallacy of hasty generalization: lunar tetrad falls on Israel holidays, therefore meta-physical intelligence.

By calling out on your fallacy I have proven, or dismissed whatever pseudo-scientific claim you are making and invalidated your non-existent argument, since you are yet to provide any arguments for the title of this debate. How can this debate be related to the topic you are trying to argue, if you are not clearly stating your arguments relating to the topic in the first place?

I am tempted to accuse you of using the red herring fallacy, but I shall hold my words.
Debate Round No. 2


con: My opponent in no way shape or form links any of his arguments to the title of this debate, and only seems to be following the blood moon prophecy.

Pro: I already stated John Hagee described a bloodmoon prophesy. I already stated he was wrong and that there was much more pertaining to these redmoons few touch upon, then I stated my case. I did not address a bloodmoon prophesy. Links/info to this can be found at: starting at 15:23
and more info here: start time at 4:33 .

con:Simply put, your claims clearly follows the fallacy of hasty generalization: lunar tetrad falls on Israel holidays, therefore meta-physical intelligence.

pro: Indeed we have a metaphysical/supernatual display here. Please see picture here: There are many, many Bible verses telling Israel and the future people of God after that era there would be signs in the heavens. We have a cosmic correlation straight back to the Nation of Israel's beginnings as the tetrad only appears on their established holidays. This could not be possible without invoking future for-knowledge. Remember, we can use technology and track the tetrad, but as humans we cannot start 1000's of years ago and predict them to continue on these established holidays.

con: By calling out on your fallacy I have proven, or dismissed whatever pseudo-scientific claim you are making and invalidated your non-existent argument, since you are yet to provide any arguments for the title of this debate. How can this debate be related to the topic you are trying to argue, if you are not clearly stating your arguments relating to the topic in the first place?

Pro: By firstly showing a supernatural reality displaying the most consistent cosmological pattern known to man corellating straight out of Israel that goes beyond scientific methodology, I am operating inside the parameters of 1.recorded prediction and instruction of star signs to Israel 2.Tetrad stands the test of time over the nations establishment and holidays 3. God of the bible's prediction to Israel in these regards is now observed through cosmology and recorded in history to be watching for them. ( See bible passages pertaining to star signs).

By showing an esoteric/supernatural reality of The God of the bible unto observable Israel today, I can now put forth the case of Irreducible complexity of the scripture when studied line upon line precept upon precept as Isaiah the prophet instructs us. By doing so , we come across a case of Universals known to all men alive (sun moon sea day stars night)
found specifically categorized in the prophetic/esoteric passages of scripture. For an example Judges 5:20 They fought from heaven (who fought in heaven?) ; (semi colon - Precept) the *stars (Angels) in their courses fought against Sisera. Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded his trumpet: and I saw a star out of the heaven fallen to the earth; ( semi colon /precept) and there was given to *Him the key of the pit of the abyss. He = Star = Angelic.
Another universal everyone knows: Seas: Ezk 29: To the prince of Tyrus write Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the
*seas: ( semicolon / precept) We all know that in the physical world there is no chair or throne sitting in the middle of the beach, nor can there be in this chapter because the entire chapter is followed with strictly political and economical subject matter. In the *prophetic passages, seas is always referred to seas of peoples nations cultures tongues.
Jude 1: 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These people are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 --->Raging waves of the *sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars (There those stars again) , to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever (predestined).
I wrote all that to show you how in the prophetic/esoteric passages Seas = Peoples. Star(s) = Angels. ....Remember these "universals" ---> day moon night sea stars .....These words were also known as "Tier words" in scripture or hermeneutics by older theologians. Line upon line precept upon precept as instructed in scripture. i gave a few verses for those 2 words and I can give all of them ( in the high double digits) but, i think you can get the idea. I have not touched on the other universals known to all men such as day, moon, night as there is not enough text characters in this screen to allow.
more on this topic can be found for novices here: and on an intermediate level here: and at an ontological level over all scripture at in the teaching entitled "The lost story" which has a free option to download.

...So to the point of "My opponent in no way shape or form links any of his arguments to the title of this debate" I am putting forth the case inside scripture of a categorized series of universal hermeneutical algorithms that lead straight into the depiction of Zion/Heaven /1st estate before genesis creation and the problem going on when it was said to " Let us make man in our image". The end result is God re-created the entire race of Elohim/Angelic sons of God and the disembodies personaliteis of 1/3 Fallen Angels in hell into this earth realm matrix of redemption. This information goes beyond arguments such as "is God evil" as it reveals the reasons for why all the suffering in humanity. Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated ...2 different nations going forth in the earth. Wheat from the tares. Sheep from the goats. Vessels unto wrath and vessels unto mercy. The elect and the reprobate. 10 commandments given to Israel alone, no objective given to Pharoah/Egypt. God favors one people and rejects others. It may seem God is arbitrary, only without understanding there is a huge problem going on. God is allowing as fleshlings the "wheat and the tares" to grow together
cut off from anything Spiritual as it counts as a legitimate race. When it was said in Genesis to "Let us make man in our image" the end result is a world of believers and non believers. The face all humans are ascribed is already ascribed to either a Holy Angel in Heaven or fallen angel in hell. Angels do not have blood in their bodies. No punishment room in paradise. God is having mercy on His fallen sons by allowing a disposable, temporal, destructible duplicate version of them live in a world among the elect (Christians) where redemptive blood was shed. They will never believe or be saved in tis lifetime because of who they are in Spirit or essence. The will f man does not go under a microscope. After burning in hell night and day (time) forever and ever ends on the Last Day, they come through the fire saved when this book rolls up like a scroll (Revelation 6:14 - Isaiah 34:4) and there is "no more night" (Rev 22:5) and it is "only day" (Rev 22). Time has served it's purpose IE the book of life and the "Day dawns" ( 2 peter 1:19) . ... The angels are on reserve to judgement unto the "Great DAY" (Jude:1) ( Eternal plane) when God says "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:5). This is the case of irreducible complexity found in scripture line upon line precept upon precept explaining who mankind is and what is the purpose. As the title says: Mankind is the incarnated race of Holy and Unholy Angels

con: I am tempted to accuse you of using the red herring fallacy, but I shall hold my words.
Pro: I hope this new text is more to the point.


My opponent seems to misunderstand the difference between know, and believe. This means that all those passages my opponent mentioned are what people believe, and not accounts proven to have actually happened, and thus invalidates any of the claims he was making when giving a large amount of evidence from passages that have not been proven to be right. Hopefully my opponent does not fall into the fallacy of circular reasoning in his future arguments.

Furthermore, my opponent tries to opt out of falling into the fallacy of hasty generalization by simply reiterating what he stated in his previous argument in a long-winded fashion, and yet he still does fall into this fallacy because in the end, the claim is still there: lunar tetrad falls on Israel holidays at a time of technological inferiority, therefore metaphysical intelligence.

Finally, I think I should mention how ridiculous my opponent's claim sounds, since the very topic of this debate he is arguing for goes against scientific research, study, and theories that have been tested for centuries, and seems to confident in evidence that are unproven, and frankly untrustworthy, since there are many examples of contradictions and immoral acts within the Bible that has been supposedly written by god. My opponent also seems to not understand the difference between irreducible complexity from cause and effect.

On a final note, I would like to point out that my opponent falls into the begging the question fallacy, since he is assuming a claim that has not been studied scientifically and not been proven to be true, and is verging on falling into the argument from ignorance fallacy since he might be betting on the fact that his claim has not been proven true, and simply cannot be proven true due to a lack of evidence and due to the fact that apart from religious scriptures, not much is known about Israel at the time that the Bible takes place.
Debate Round No. 3


We have ruled out "believe" as opposed to "know". The tetrad over Israel's holidays is crystal clear and by all scientific calculation/methodology/inference available to mankind goes straight back to an established nation IE Holidays.

So to say "red moons over Israel, therefore "God"" is perfectly justified as they all fall on those holidays as per the instruction layed out for Israel to observe their signs. I do not believe my opponent is grasping the magnitude of what is being presented and is depending on "science" in which my case supercedes. Science very simply, does not possess the ability of objectivity to answer all things as we are all stuck in the present.

According to my opponents standard (limited scientific observation) of what is true, It can be likened to me hesitating to pay the electric bill: It has 1:paid postage stamp, 2:date, 3:Senders address 4: and I can read it, ...yet, I did not see the
electrical company send it to me, so therefore I should not pay my bill. I do not think my opponent understands what circular reasoning actually is, and is attempting digression and obfuscation from an observable esoteric cosmological reality correlating back to Israel's establishment found in scripture that surpasses "science". It is clear his world view is limited by Scientism, ( a new trend) which answers literally nothing beyond the present.

I think we have a classic case of " The atheist believes one day "science " will answer all things" Yet that day has not come. Hence he is mixing up fantasy/conjecture/no foundation and calling it science ( as some kind of standard), and seems to be hoping those around him will call this idea"science" by definition under these philosophical underpinnings.

So in all this, he has not offered any real opposition to anything I presented. The case is clear in justifying The God of the Bible as a reality, in which I go on with the case of Irreducible Complexity Via the universals all man knows ( Sun moon night sea stars) as we are instructed from the Prophet Isaiah to read the scriptures line upon line precept upon precept.

What is a precept? A pre-existing problem, idea, or subject. Why do we have a semicolon ( : ) in our language text?
A semicolon advocates a precept. What is line upon line? Algorithm. My opponent is not answering my case of Irreducible complexity in that inside the Prophetic / Esoteric passages of scripture, all speak via the universals named above in consistency. I gave the links to learn how in some degree to apprehend what the case actually is.

We can "know" ( not believe) the bible is true when we follow instruction on how to read the bible (Isaiah 28:10) found in the bible, apply it, and the end result being a case of categorized (prophetic passages) Universal (seas / stars/ night etc) hermeneutical (precept) algorithms (self-contained step-by-step set of operations to be performed) portraying the problem behind Genesis creation.

No room for circular reasoning here, as the bible is tangible record,
The year is 2016 because of Christ event , and the case I presented.
(circular reasoning?) To illustrate a fallacy would be along the lines of the trend of scientism when examining the origins of this trend: Evolution: The theory of undirected chemical process via natural selection. The word "mutation" is ascribed
to broken or damaged dna, on which is a pivotal point to the entire theory. We have a huge theoretical gap when time goes by and we find things such as the dna repair enzymes: a mechanism set in place that corrects "mutation" and acts as an inhibitor of "speciation". The theory of undirected processes is now vacuous. Moreover, genetic entropy (new
information) is proving that we as a race are degenerating. No new information code added, Only deleted. What is "scientific" and observed in biology is now surpassing the original ideologies and taught curriculum that the entire evolution theory is founded upon.
How much more than, the *trend of "scientism" my opponent is adhering to, spawned from that original false ideology ?

I maintain my position of Irreducible Complexity as to the title of this debate
as well as the bloodmoons/Tetrads over Israel correlating back to their establishment which supercedes science and available methodology while only empirically proving prophesy and also I do not accept my opponent's standard of what is true as I clearly illustrated the philosophical underpinnings of that position are based in a failed methodology,
hijacking the word science by it's very definitions.


It is important to mention that my opponent's 'red moons over Israel, therefore 'God' is not referring to the example of hasty generalization I presented in my earlier arguments, and still falls into this fallacy, even though my opponent tried to justify his claim by saying 'they fall on those holidays as per the instruction laid out for Israel to observe their signs', which I should say is based off of a book which has not been proven to be true and no documentation of any dates of when the books where written. The book's claims, I should mention, has been tried to be proven through millions of dollars spent on archaeological excavations to even see whether there is a sliver of evidence found for chapters such as Exodus. Basing justification on something which is not factual, is not objectivity, since by definition objectivity is not based on personal feelings and opinions.

My opponent also seems to have the idea that I accused him of using circular reasoning, when in fact my previous argument states that it would be unwise for my opponent to use circular reasoning for 'future' arguments. Also his 'paying the electric bill' comparison is not quite true since the reason you pay the bill, or get the bill in first place is purely for an objective reason which can be proven from figures of electrical usage. Comparing something objective with something that is not, as I mentioned before, is simply the false analogy fallacy.

Perhaps humorously, I find it charming that my opponent accuses me of a claim that I have not made, and calls it fantasy and conjecture, even though his initial claim (which is the topic of this debate), is factually a conjecture in itself.

Again, I must mention that the reason I did not answer my opponent's claim of irreducible complexity is simply because it is not irreducible complexity, thus invalidating any reason to answer a false claim. Also, my opponent tries to undermine biological progress by introducing the Creationist claim of 'genetic entropy', and this can be rebuked.

To emphasize, the 'genetic entropy' argument is based off of a paper Alexey S. Kondrashov and James F. Crow wrote stating that a certain postulate led inexorably to the idea that all organisms were doomed to extinction in a relatively small number of generations, and this would lead to the invalidation of evolution due to it violating the second law of thermodynamics. This argument and other arguments that claim evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics are complete misinterpretations of what the second law actually states, which is that the entropy of a closed system cannot decrease, simply because of the fact that life is not a closed system.

My opponent is yet to tackle my accusation of him falling into the begging the question fallacy and the argument from ignorance fallacy.
Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Zaephou 2 months ago
Tough luck
Posted by ApostolicTransfer 2 months ago
ApostolicTransfer says I forfeited the debate. It said I forfeited in yellow letters now red. I know I pushed it off for a day, I thought I had more time. I went to get online and respond, then "surprise".
Posted by Zaephou 2 months ago
Seems like my opponent's belief in metaphysical intelligence has failed to come up with a feasible argument against the scientific method and truth.
Posted by Zaephou 2 months ago
Round 3, paragraph 4, line 3, word 18, I would like to correct the word to 'false*'
Posted by Zaephou 2 months ago
My argument on round 2, line 5, word 9, I would like to correct the word to 'proven wrong*'
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