The Instigator
sonofzapp
Pro (for)
Losing
22 Points
The Contender
beem0r
Con (against)
Winning
28 Points

Many of the biblicle figures were african.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/20/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,515 times Debate No: 4107
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (14)

 

sonofzapp

Pro

I'd like to begin this debate by stating that I do not speak as an African-American male, but as a person who wishes to kill some of the confusion concerning the people of the torah, bible, and koran, and I wish my opponant the best of luck.

Just picture it. your walking through a meuseam and you stop to look at a very peculiar painting. Upon further examination you recognize it to be a portrait of George Wahington, but there are a few problems with the way he is portrayed.
Instead of having wooden teeth, a white powdered wig, and white skin; his teeth are perfectly pearly white, his hair is in thick black dreadlocks, and his skin is dark brown!

You say " Wait, Washington didn't look like this.", and someone near by asks you, "How do you know?" and you say "Because they taught us this in school. He was of European decent, and their arent many African's in Europe. Besides there are numerous documents that give his physical description, and none of them state that he is darkbrown with dreadlocks." Rather then acknowledging the truth in your words this person is enraged and randomly rants about how your an idiot and how its just impossible for George Washinton to be cacausion, completely ignorant of the facts you just presented him with.

Its not that you just wanna rant, nor is it that George washington would be any less of a great man if he were African, you simply have evidence that points to the contrary but no one around you will listen because they are too engulfed by their ignorance to accept that.

This is often how I feel when I am around a large group of christians and we are having a religious debate. I'll say somehing like "Moses (and/or Jesus) are African. Despite what I say to prove my argument no one will accept that fact, but mabey someone on this website will listen, and that is why I've began this debate.

I'll begin my argument by adressing the geography of many biblical locations. Unless you don't read your bible, you should know that all large-scale biblical occurances happened in or around the arabian peninsula. This is also where many of the people of the bible originated. In case you didn't know, that would mean that these people would have to be of darker skin, as are all natives of this land.

Now allow me to adress the Arabian peninsula itself. It is located right in the middle of north-east African and middle-eastern Asia. In case you were unaware, all of the natives of these locations are prodomonately very darkskinned. Abraham himself was originally a Mesopotaamian man. Mesopotamia; which is literally locater in the heart of what is now the Arabian peninsula. Can anyone deny these facts?

Ok thats all I have 2 say 4 now. I dont wanna get too intense before the real debate begins. I hope my opponants arguments are backed by factual information and probability rather then biased opinion. Besides this I wish my opponant the best of luck!

P.S. So u all wont find my debate too biased, I'd like you to know that I myself am a muslim, who occasionally enjoys reading the bible. Peace and blessings of Allah be upon you. [and no Im dead serious]
beem0r

Con

My opponent makes a good case. He states that we often mistake people like Jesus' race based on what we've seen in pictures. This is entirely true. While most art shows Jesus as a white European, he was almost certainly not, and the same is true for other biblical figures.

However, it seems my opponent is making a huge mistake. While it is likely that Jesus et al. had dark skin, this does not make them African. As my opponent himself admits, Abraham was a mesopotamian man. Mesopotamia is not Africa, it is the middle-east. Ergo, not African, Middle-eastern. And Jesus certainly wasn't born in Africa. I have no reason to believe his mother was, either.

Not all dark-skinned folk are Africans, not all light-skinned folk are European. Most of these biblical figures were not African, even if they were dark-skinned.
Debate Round No. 1
sonofzapp

Pro

beem0r I understaand and respect your point of view. I was not at all implying that all biblical peoples were African, only a large number of them. In fact I, myself am not completely sure that Abraham himself was of African ethnicity, for it is commenly accepted that he bore red hair and I doubt that there are many Africans with hair as such, but who are you or I to say that the early hebrews did not extend their bloodline to Africa, or say for instance Ethiopia? Its is located at the foot of the Arabian Peninsula so its not unlikely. If you don't believe me then look it up in the Bible yourself

"Are ye not as children of the Ethiopias unto me, O children of Israel? saith the lord. "Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Cahptor, and the Syrians from Kir?" Page 343 Amos 9 Verse 7

I find this to be pretty self explanatory but just in case you are unaware; in this verse God is comparing the Israelites to ethiopians. In a sense he is saying that they ARE ethiopians. "Are ye not as children of the Ethiopias unto me," is a way of saying, "are you, yourself not decended from ethiopia?" Now some might argue that; as far as evolution goes, we are all decendands of Africa and somewhere along the line, Ethiopia as well." To those who think this, I'd have to ask you, don't you think that God already knows this? In one way or another we are all from Africa weather we accept that or not, so why would God, who already knew this point out such an obvious fact, unless it held some greater signifigance? That greater signifigance being that they were more closely decended from the ethiopians then any average person. Correct me if I'm wrong but werent most biblical figures Iraelites, which in turn would mean that they too are Ethiopian. Now back onto the Jesus subject.

beem0r are you familiar with the Queen of Sheba? Few americans, both cacausian and afro-american are. For some reason the largest christian groups in America seem to avoid such topisc, for instance I never hear any Catholic's or baptists speaking of her, despite the fact that her story in in the old testament plain as day. [I wonder why?]

Well the story goes that The Queen of Sheba herd tales of Soloman's great wisdom, and sought to test it. She arrived at his palace with numerous gifts and began her test. As the story goes, he passed it, and soon she became quite fond of him, and bore him a son. She took the boy back to Ethiopia and when he came of age, returned him to his father to seek his blessing. It is commonly accepted in Ethiopia that the royal dynasty of rulers decended from this noble blood line called the solomic dynasty. As I'm sure you were aware, Jesus was a part of this bloodline, which in turn would mean that he too was Ethiopian.

Now I know what your thinking. "Who's to say that this is true? This tale is native to Ethiopia, how do we know that it wasn't just something made up to make the Ethiopian people and their emporers feel more important?"
This would make sense, but then again who's to say anything in the bible or Quran in credible? The bible is over 2000years old, and has been edited and rewritten many times over. There is even one case in which the bible had many of its original books stripped from its pages and rewritten. Make no mistake, I am a firm believer, I'm just giving you the facts.
beem0r

Con

I agree that it is not ALL biblical figures that my opponent must show to be african, it is simply many of them.

He admits that Abraham was likely not African, even though this was an example he brought up.

Next, he goes to argue that many the Isrealites are African, since they were at one time in Africa. And since many biblical figures were isrealites, this would seem to affirm the resolution. However, after so many generations, you can really no longer be considered "African". They may be of African descent, but they are no longer Africans.

For instance, I consider myself American. I am largely of European descent, but I am not European.

African:
A native or inhabitant of Africa

Source: Merriam-Webster

Take you, for instance. You are an American, your family's been here probably at least a few generations. You would indeed be an African-American, but you are not African.

African-American:
An American of African and especially of black African descent

Source: Same

Note how that definition clearly defines you as an American, not as an African. You simply have primarily African ancestry [I assume, at least].

This is the same for the isrealites. Shortly after they left Africa, they could no longer be considered Africans.

Regarding the Queen of Sheba:
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk...
As we see in the first line there, the son of Sheba and Solomon was named Menelik I.

It is true that Jesus is directly descended from Solomon, but NOT through Menelik. It is through one of Solomon's other children, Rehoboam. See here.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

See how Menelik is not listed anywhere there, and Rehoboam, the son of Solomon who succeeded his throne, is listed as a direct descendent between Solomon and Jesus?

Not only that, but Jesus' descendents for generations did not live in Africa, thus he is not an African, even if he had African descent.

Also, regarding Jesus' ethnicity,

"It is most commonly argued that Jesus was probably of Middle Eastern descent because of the geographic location of the events described in the Gospels, and, among some modern Christian scholars, the genealogy ascribed to him. For this reason, he has been portrayed as an olive-skinned individual typical of the Levant region."
Wikipedia - Race of Jesus - 22 May 2008 6:50PM EST

RE:"This would make sense, but then again who's to say anything in the bible or Quran in credible? The bible is over 2000years old, and has been edited and rewritten many times over. There is even one case in which the bible had many of its original books stripped from its pages and rewritten. Make no mistake, I am a firm believer, I'm just giving you the facts."

Who's to say indeed. I would say very little of it is historically credible. However, since it's most of what we have to go on, it's what we must to use.

So I've argued against Jesus being African. And I've argued against the Isrealites being considered Africans. And in doing so, I also argued that most biblical figures were indeed middle-eastern, or perhaps a seperate race, like Israeli.
Debate Round No. 2
sonofzapp

Pro

sonofzapp forfeited this round.
beem0r

Con

My opponenet has not responded to my R2 arguments, and therefore has accepted them. Since my arguments fully addressed his case, there is no justifiable way to vote PRO here. Great justice demands that you vote CON.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by beem0r 8 years ago
beem0r
But he never made that point. He used that quote to support a completely different point, he even explicitly explained what he was using the quote for.

Since he did not make that point, I should not have to respond to it in my debate.

Though if I did, I would argue that random people fleeing egypt aren't biblical figures. Biblical figures are the prominent people in the bible, like Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, David, Solomon, all the people with books of the bible named after them, etc. Some random refugeees are not biblical figures.
Posted by Derek.Gunn 8 years ago
Derek.Gunn
By George you've got it! ;-)

(Actually, if you look really carefully you'll actually see that SonOfZapp does in fact mention something like my point in Round2, paragraph 2.)
Posted by beem0r 8 years ago
beem0r
But you're using ideas that were never presented in the debate. You're just voting for who you agree with rather than who won the debate.
Posted by Derek.Gunn 8 years ago
Derek.Gunn
What's right, not who's right.
It's about the ideas - not the egos

- and that's the way I going to play it

Cheers
Posted by beem0r 8 years ago
beem0r
Yeah, too bad my opponenet never made that point. Thanks for judging the debate based on your own opinions ratehr than the arguments.
Posted by Derek.Gunn 8 years ago
Derek.Gunn
Moses and all his crew fled the Pharoh from Egypt - most certainly in Africa.
There were more than just a few in the migration.

QED SonOfZapp is right.
Posted by beem0r 8 years ago
beem0r
Harlequin: That is why, as per the definitions I gave, African descent does not make someone African, one must be a native of Africa. Else we would all be Africans.

sonofzapp: It's fine, the same thing happened to me this weekend, actually. I'd accept your request for another 1-rounder to finish the debate off, except for the fact that I'm not all that interested in the topic. I feel it is of little consequence what ethnicity biblical figures were. I only took the debate because I was bored. ;]

You could always start a new challenge for the same debate, I'm sure someone will take you up on it.
Posted by sonofzapp 8 years ago
sonofzapp
GODDAMMIT! I MISSED IT! Im sooooooo sorry! I got side tracked. just so u no beem0r no I do not accept your point of view. in fact I would lik to start up a 1 round debate 2 make up 4 this stupid mishap. i am sorry 4 wasting your time, but i can make up 4 it if u accept this 1 last round.
Posted by HarlequinTears 8 years ago
HarlequinTears
It is widely accepted that the ancestors of humans migrated from Africa. If so, wouldn't all humans be considered of "African" descent?
Posted by PublicForumG-d 9 years ago
PublicForumG-d
The Bible describes Jesus as having "Skin of bronze and hair of wool". Jesus was pretty Jewish looking - not African looking.

Asalaam alykum to Zapp. What makes you think Isa saw or Musa ra were African?
14 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Tatarize 8 years ago
Tatarize
sonofzappbeem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Jamesothy 8 years ago
Jamesothy
sonofzappbeem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by flatwhite 8 years ago
flatwhite
sonofzappbeem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by sonofzapp 8 years ago
sonofzapp
sonofzappbeem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
sonofzappbeem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Vi_Veri 8 years ago
Vi_Veri
sonofzappbeem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Derek.Gunn 8 years ago
Derek.Gunn
sonofzappbeem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by clarkgagag 8 years ago
clarkgagag
sonofzappbeem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by HarlequinTears 8 years ago
HarlequinTears
sonofzappbeem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Coffee 8 years ago
Coffee
sonofzappbeem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03