The Instigator
Letsdebate24
Pro (for)
Tied
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The Contender
Guidestone
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Marijuana should be legalized

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/30/2013 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 832 times Debate No: 43143
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
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Letsdebate24

Pro

If your going to accept this challenge I ask that you provide some form of proof for claims that you make.
Guidestone

Con

I thank my opponent for giving good opening arguments. I will now give my opening arguments.

1. Marijuana is a Gateway
According to a study by the Yale University School of Medicine marijuana is linked with an increased likelihood of prescription drug abuse. [1] The US Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration also have written that "Among lifetime marijuana users reporting their onset after age 20, an estimated 1.1 percent used heroin, 16.4 percent used cocaine, and 20.6 percent used any psychotherapeutics nonmedically in their lifetime. Among persons who had never used marijuana, less than 1 percent had ever used cocaine or heroin, but 5.1 percent had used psychotherapeutics nonmedically." [2] "One study found that youth (12 to 17 years old) who use marijuana are 85 times more likely to use cocaine than kids who do not use pot, and that 60% of the kids who smoke pot before the age of 15 move on to cocaine." [3] This shows there is a strong correlation between marijuana use and harder drugs, but this doesn't mean causation; however, "Because a tolerance builds up, marijuana can lead users to consume stronger drugs to achieve the same high. When the effects start to wear off, the person may turn to more potent drugs to rid himself of the unwanted conditions that caused him to take marijuana in the first place." [3] This does prove causation; therefore, marijuana is a gateway to other drugs and should remain illegal.

2. Marijuana has bad health effects
Some of the short term effects include distorted perception, loss of coordination, trouble with thinking and problem-solving, and increased heart rate. [4] Some of these effects like distorted perception, and loss of coordination will lead to increased accidents harming more citizens. "A study by the French National Institute for Transport and Safety Research published in theBritish Medical Journal found that seven percent of drivers involved in a fatal highway crash used marijuana. The researchers estimated that at least 2.5 percent of the 10,748 fatal crashes studied were directly caused by the use of marijuana." [5] "In Australia, a study found that cannabis intoxication was responsible for 4.3% of driver fatalities." [6] The government classifies marijuana as a Schedule I drug, meaning it no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse. [7] The government also protects its citizens with immunization mandates, fluoridation of water, iodization of salt, pollution restrictions, and banning of hard drugs. The long term effects include lung problems, Cancer, weak immune system, birth problems. "Smoking marijuana, even infrequently, can cause burning and stinging of the mouth and throat, and cause heavy coughing. Scientists have found that regular marijuana smokers can experience the same respiratory problems as tobacco smokers do" [4] Also, "Long-time joint smokers often suffer from bronchitis, an inflammation of the respiratory tract." [8] Second, it can cause cancer "Because marijuana smoke contains three times the amount of tar found in tobacco smoke and 50 percent more carcinogens, it would seem logical to deduce that there is an increased risk of lung cancer for marijuana smokers. However, researchers have not been able to definitively prove such a link because their studies have not been able to adjust for tobacco smoking and other factors that might also increase the risk." [4] "Marijuana smoke contains 50% to 70% more cancer-causing substances than tobacco smoke. One major research study reported that a single cannabis joint could cause as much damage to the lungs as up to five regular cigarettes smoked one after another." [8] Further, it effects the immune system "Research indicates that THC impairs the body's immune system from fighting disease, which can cause a wide variety of health problems. One study found that marijuana actually inhibited the disease-preventing actions of key immune cells. Another study found that THC increased the risk of developing bacterial infections and tumors." [4] Finally, it causes birth problems "Several studies have found that children born to mothers who used marijuana during pregnancy exhibit some problems with neurological development." [4]

3. Use of Marijuana is Immoral
Under the two major schools of ethics, Utilitarianism and Kantian ethics, both consider it immoral. Utilitarianism is "The ethical theory proposed by Jeremy Bentham and James Mill that all action should be directed toward achieving the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people." [9] As a Utilitarian would say "paternalistic intervention may preserve worthwhile lives." [10] Kant uses what he called the categorical imperative. The categorical imperative is "In the ethical system of Immanuel Kant, an unconditional moral law that applies to all rational beings and is independent of any personal motive or desire." [11] In Kantian ethics you must think if everyone had to do this action all the time. Smoking of marijuana would impair normal functioning and every had to smoke marijuana then the world would be a world in which no one would want to live; therefore, it is immoral and should not be legalized. It could also be said by a person who follows kant ethics "when people act irrationally, they are not acting autonomously." [10]

4. Legalization would increase the number of children having access to it
Developing brains and bodies can be dealt serious blows by the use of marijuana. [12] Anytime you make something legal, you increase the accessibility to children. When something is legalized more people consume it, and when more people have it, it increase the likelihood of children getting it simply because there is more of it. All too often kids and teenagers get their hands on alcohol or cigarettes. [13] We shouldn't let the same thing happen with marijuana. How many kids can get access to cigarette or alcohol, a lot more than can get access to marijuana. So, legalization would only give kids more access to it not less like some claim.


I look forward to my opponent's response.

Sources
[1] http://www.ctpost.com...
[2] http://www.samhsa.gov...
[3] http://www.drugfreeworld.org...
[4] http://alcoholism.about.com...
[5] http://alcoholism.about.com...
[6] http://www.drugfreeworld.org...
[7] http://www.justice.gov...
[8] http://www.drugfreeworld.org...
[9] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
[10] http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk...
[11] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
[12] http://www.csam-asam.org...
[13] http://www.centurycouncil.org...





Debate Round No. 1
Letsdebate24

Pro

1. Marijuana is a gateway
There are many studies that have proven hard drug users almost entirely start smoking cigarettes as a child before they try any sort of drug at all. Nicotine is an addictive substance that has been steadily increased over the last 6 years. There are virtually no addictive properties in marijuana and the introduction of pain medication has made marijuana an outdated drug in the view of todays youth. When Colorado recently legalized the use of marijuana the use by teens went from 24.8 to 22%. Many of todays youth turn to selling drugs and the prescription drugs have taken hold of the drug market because of the high one can experience and the price is drastically higher than any other drug. Drug dealers seek to make a profit by selling their pills and often times employee young teens to do the dirty work to lessen the chance of getting caught.

http://www.nih.gov...
http://www.cbsnews.com...
http://www.regulatemarijuana.org... (reducing access to teens /

2. Marijuana has bad health effects
It is true that marijuana can cause those short term effects but there is a major flaw in the studies stated in my opponents argument. Firstly the percent of the fatal crashes does not even exceed 5% not exactly a substantial amount by no means. Secondly those studies only show that they were users of marijuana, not that they were intoxicated at the time of the accident. Blood tests cannot determine the time of use only that it is found in the blood and since it takes marijuana on average 30 days to leave the system therefore it cannot be proven to be the cause of a crash. Alcohol however takes the lives of 16,000 in 2010 according to the center for disease control because of liver disease. 25,692 died alcohol induced deaths excluding accidents and homicides. Those are staggering numbers found by the CDC. There has been no evidence to show that marijuana has taken a single life. In fact it is used to treat over 230 illnesses and it is ready to use straight out of the ground just the way it grows. Video 3 has a list of studies done that show marijuana has properties that have the potential to actually cure certain cancers. Videos 4 and 5 show physicians supporting the use of marijuana. Cigarettes and alcohol are proven to be severely bad for you and yet they are perfectly legal. Marijuana has been shown to have healing properties and its used to treat a wide variety of illnesses. But to be fair anything taken in excess can have harmful side effects. For example if one were to drink two gallons of water in an hour they would drown and yet water is known as one of the healthiest things we can ingest. Same is true of aspirin if you were to eat a whole bottle at once you would need hospitalization. Now take the side effects of prescription drugs that are supposed to be helping you. The side effects at the end of the commercial are staggering often times causing damage in another part of the body requiring a different prescription to counter the effects of the first. Those that use medical marijuana do not have to take any prescriptions to counter their use of marijuana. Alcohol causes vomiting, headaches and blood poisoning. Marijuana is prescribed to settle the stomach, ease headaches, and does not poison your blood. Its even prescribed to treat depression without the risk of suicidal thoughts

1. http://www.cdc.gov...
2. http://patients4medicalmarijuana.wordpress.com...
3. http://www.collective-evolution.com...
4. http://www.youtube.com...
5. http://youtu.be...

3. Use of Marijuana is Immoral
Morality is not for a certain group to decide. The use of a substance is not immoral unless it harms someone or others. In the 60s hippies would gather together and protest wars and promote peace and love, how can that be immoral. It might be considered immoral if it were to consume ones life and drive them to commit immoral acts such as stealing or assault. Simply put [11] is a hypothetical exaggeration. When a person uses marijuana they do not become aggressive or lose the ability to tell right from wrong as one would under the influence of alcohol. Hence hippies spreading peace and love.

4. Legalization would increase the number of children having access to it
No one advocating the legalization has said that a child should be allowed to use marijuana. They have asked that it carry the same set of rules as alcohol. You should not be aloud to use it in a public setting where alcohol is not legal. It is common knowledge that prohibition does not work. The government cannot prevent people from crossing our borders let alone the drugs the carry with them. When their is a prohibition put into effect it only pushes the substance to the underground market which is not the safest of conditions to be in. Prohibition empowers drug dealers to make a profit however they see fit. Take alcohol for example, when it was prohibited it gave rise to people like Al Capone who made massive profits off of it in the underground market. This lead to violence and murder but when the prohibition was lifted and the substance was regulated the crime rate dropped drastically. The same is true of marijuana, if you take the business away from the dealer you make the streets a safer place. How man dealers do you hear of selling alcohol? You don't because it is legal. Why would they sell alcohol when you can go to the closest liquor store and purchase it in a safe environment. Drug dealers don't ask to see id but a store clerk will. As a child marijuana was easy to attain simply because it was illegal but alcohol was far more difficult to get my hands on. Why? Because I couldn't find a dealer that was selling a legal substance.

These are legal officials supporting legalization
Guidestone

Con

1. Marijuana is a gateway
Yes cigarettes can be a gateway too, but I advocate for banning those too. " It is estimated that 9 percent of people who use marijuana will become dependent on it. The number goes up to about 1 in 6 in those who start using young (in their teens) and to 25-50 percent among daily users." [1]
Your comment of "Many of today's youth turn to selling drugs and the prescription drugs have taken hold of the drug market because of the high one can experience and the price is drastically higher than any other drug." fits really well with my previous comment of "Because a tolerance builds up, marijuana can lead users to consume stronger drugs to achieve the same high." You basically validated my claim that it is a gateway drug.

2. Marijuana has bad health effects
Those studies say directly caused or responsible for meaning they were the main cause of the accident. ". A recent survey found that 6.8 percent of drivers, mostly under age 35, who were involved in accidents tested positive for THC; alcohol levels above the legal limit were found in 21 percent of such drivers." [5] 5% isn't insignificant you are talking about hundreds of lives. Also, Alcohol does contribute to many deaths also, but I also favor banning alcohol too.
"There has been no evidence to show that marijuana has taken a single life." really? In the previous round I showed that "researchers estimated that at least 2.5 percent of the 10,748 fatal crashes studied were directly caused by the use of marijuana." [4] Yes Marijuana may help with some diseases, but we are not talking about just medical marijuana. This is about all marijuana like for recreational use.

3. Use of Marijuana is Immoral
My opponent offers his version of morality which is referred to as the Harm principle which is "As long as the action involves only consenting adults it is morally permissible.", but I don't believe this is really how he would determine morality. Irving Kristol wrote an argument to this saying "[T]he plain fact is that none of us is a complete civil libertarian. We all believe that there is some point at which the public authorities ought to step in to limit the "self-expression" of an individual or group even where this might be seriously intended as a form of artistic expression, and even where the artistic transaction is between consenting adults. A playwright or theatrical director might, in this crazy world of ours, find someone willing to commit suicide on stage, as called for by the script. We would not allow that-any more than we would permit scenes of real physical torture on the stage, even if the victim were a willing masochist. And I know of no one, no matter how free in spirit, who argues that we ought to permit gladiatorial contests in Yankee stadium, similar to those once performed in the Coliseum of Rome-even if only consenting adults were involved." [2] If this is really does believe this then All Drugs & Alcohol, Euthanasia/Suicide, Prostitution, Polygamy, Gay Marriage, Cannibalism, Bestiality, Incest, Public Nudity, Abortion (According to some people), Dueling/Fights to the Death, All weapons of any kind be owned should all be legal and is morally permissible; however I felt that I have shown that it does harm to health and others. This is a consequentialist theory because you judge the morality of an action based on its consequences; However, this is not a good way to determine right and wrong. This is because you can never know the full consequences of an action. A small action today could lead to major actions later, this is known as the butterfly effect. "The butterfly effect is the sensitive dependency on initial conditions in which a small change at one place in a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state." [3] What an action is today a small "harmless" action could lead to world peace, or it could also lead to World War III you can never know.

4. Legalization would increase the number of children having access to it
I didn't say that you wanted to legalize it for children. I did say legalizing makes it easier for children to get it.
"It is common knowledge that prohibition does not work." It should say it is commonly misunderstood that prohibition didn't work. During Prohibition there were significant positive effects. "Alcohol use decreased, cirrhosis of the liver was down 66% in men, and public drunkenness was halved." [6] Also increased savings, better provided and happier homes, and responsible citizenship. [7] Prohibition did work, but it was poorly enforced in some areas which lead to its repeal. There is still a multitude of counties that are still dry. [8] As far as crime related to prohibition "“Yes,” asserts Sabet, “organized crime was emboldened, but the mob was already powerful before Prohibition, and it continued to be long after.” So I see no strong evidence that Prohibition wasn’t temporarily useful to America" [6], and "Probably one of the most popular ideas of the time was that the mob held control of the majority of the illegal liquor trafficking. For the most part this is untrue, although in concentrated areas gangsters did run the liquor racket. Chicago was one of those cities where they did control distribution." [9] I also like your distinct lack of sources for this section.

5. Drug related arrest benefit society
Someone who illegally buys/sell/uses marijuana has already established themselves as someone who does not follow the law, and could lead to more crimes in the future; however, if they are in jail on drug charges they cannot commit more crimes. Also, they would get a lighter sentence than others crimes. [10]"Marijuana is the drug most often linked to crime in the United States" [11] "In a study of 10,441 secondary students in New South Wales, Australia, students who were frequent cannabis users were two times more likely to participate in assault and malicious damage of property than students who did not use cannabis." [12] We can focus on rehabilitation on why they turned to drugs instead waiting for them to do more crimes, and incarcerating them for longer times. By addressing the source of the problems we can make a better society or we could legalize marijuana and pretend the problems don't exist.

Sources
[1] http://www.drugabuse.gov...
[2] http://www.mandm.org.nz...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[4] http://alcoholism.about.com...
[5] http://www.drugabuse.gov...
[6] http://www.phoenixhouse.org...
[7] http://www.jstor.org...
[8] http://upload.wikimedia.org...
[9] http://cocktails.about.com...
[10] http://norml.org...
[11] http://www.mcclatchydc.com...
[12] http://www.nber.org...


Debate Round No. 2
Letsdebate24

Pro

1. Marijuana is a gateway
Perhaps I didn't explain my statement thoroughly enough. Marijuana is no longer the first pick among young teens, they are being fed prescription drugs. Dealers no longer make a decent profit off of marijuana since pills can yield up to $40 a pop. The vast majority of dealers will always follow the profit.

2. Marijuana has bad health effects
Obviously if someone were to smoke marijuana and then drive they are putting themselves and others at risk because it is a substance that can alter your mental state and impair motor skills though no where near the extent that alcohol does. No one is suggesting that you should be able to drive a car while under the influence of any substance that impairs your abilities. Studies have shown that the most common danger a driver is guilty of is texting and driving which is responsible for 23% of all auto accidents. Now that is a much higher percentage. It is the number one cause of teen deaths that occur while driving.
Not only has there been a critical lack of information to show any harmful effects on a persons health but in fact just the opposite. Fast food is proven to be one of the most unhealthy things a person can put into their body and it causes problems like heart attack, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, obesity, and diabetes. All this in turn causes more health problems which in turn result in a flood of health care bills as well as more prescriptions being handed out and as I outlined the risk of prescribed drugs im sure you can see how this is highly problematic both to a persons health and the economy. But the fact remains that it is up to the individual what they put in their body regardless of the health impacts. It is our freedom to choose for ourselves. Might I add that marijuana does not cause any of the symptoms fast food does.

http://www.textinganddrivingsafety.com...
http://www.phonearena.com...

3. Use of Marijuana is Immoral
That was extremism at its prime.
Drugs and alcohol-Prohibition has never worked and cost America only billions of dollars trying to enforce and the lives of law enforcement fighting an unwinnable war.
Euthanasia - Another topic all together but it should be legal for those that meet very specific criteria (let me know if you would like to debate this topic)
Prostitution - Already legal and millions of people take part its called porn. They are paid to have sex made legal because its caught on camera and called a "movie"
Polygamy - There is no detrimental impact on society from someone choosing to live like this and their are religions that consent to this. To infringe on this could be violate someones religion such as the Mormons.
Gay marriage - Man has been discriminating each other since history began such as women, Indians, blacks, and now gays. Eventually they all get equal rights.
Cannibalism - Some of that extremism I referred to. People are killed and eaten in this situation, people on marijuana just eat chips or cookies.
Bestiality - Ok this one threw me off...don't know what to say
Incest - This is proven to have harmful side effects on offspring from to related family members.
Public nudity - This is legal in established nude colonies. Hence they are allowed to but in a designated area. Alcohol has designated areas as well, cant just walk down the street with a bottle.
Abortion - Unlike marijuana this involves the life of another.
Dueling fights to the death - More extremism, people die in this situation.

You have failed to prove consequences to health to oneself or others and used extremism as an attempt at showing similarities. If you believe these things to be relevant that is your opinion and you are entitled to it but that doesn't mean everyone believes the same things. Because people have such drastically different views on what is wrong and right it should be left up to the individual. The butterfly effects is only a theory that is not widely accepted and if one were to use this theory it could be said that religion has led the world to its current state. There is no way to disprove or prove the statement but it fits into the parameters of the butterfly effect.

4. Legalization would increase the number of children having access to it
The prohibition of alcohol gave rise to men like Al Capone and only pushed the substance underground. Theres a reason they thought better of it and lifted the prohibition. Crime rates rose as did the number of murders due to the illegality of the substance. [6] increased savings? Marijuana is the cheapest illegal substance there is and it is very easy to grow it in ones own backyard. Marijuana is proven to help relieve stress and relieving stress tends to make people happier. Portugal legalized drugs and they saw a substantial drop in all crimes, overdoses and their economy began to improve from the money that would have been spent prosecuting and jailing people. I did provide videos of law enforcement and politics stating that prohibition does not work but ill provide some more all the same. Let me know if you would like to see more evidence or statistics. I have much more to show

http://www.countthecosts.org...

5. Drug related arrest benefit society
If they are in jail the taxpayers are forced to support them, Florida for example spends over 1 billion a year prosecuting marijuana users. Imagine that billion being thrown into the already underfunded education system and on top of that the profits that would come from taxes put on marijuana. [10] Unable to find the source you found this in
[12] As stated before incarceration costs American taxpayers billions ad often times a user can have the drugs smuggled into prison. The longer a person is incarcerated the more likely they are to become institutionalized. They often come out more aggressive and become repeat offenders. Rehabilitation would be a more efficient method but a casual drug user that pays their bills and taxes and who keeps a happy home does not qualify as someone with a problem.

http://247wallst.com... (look at the bottom)
Guidestone

Con

1. Marijuana is a gateway
Even IF it is not the first pick doesn't mean it is still not a gateway.

2. Marijuana has bad health effects
Yes, drunk driving and texting while drive are issues, but that does not get away from the point that accidents will increase because of impairment caused by marijuana.
I though I have proved there are many negative health effects that have been identified and well known, so to claim that there is a lack of information is simply incorrect. Fast food can be really bad for you, but it is food and you are not smoking it. You must have food to live but you don't have to smoke, so any comparison is really thin. It is true that fast food and marijuana don't have the same effect, which is more reason why it isn't a good comparison.

3. Use of Marijuana is Immoral
It is not extremism; it is called reductio ad absurdum. That is the refutation of a proposition by demonstrating that its logical conclusion is absurd. [1] Your argument was this X should be legal because it does not harm anyone else. I just simply filled in options that would also be true under the same argument. It is the logical conclusion of that argument. You must assume that all those acts are consensual or there would be harm, but if two consenting parties agree to cannibalism/dualing would that be immoral? As you said "It is our freedom to choose for ourselves."
"Because people have such drastically different views on what is wrong and right it should be left up to the individual."
Again your argument is people have different moral opinions regarding X; therefore, the individual should choose to do it or not. Well what if my morality allowed abortion, human sacrifice, or stealing?
Pertaining to the butterfly effect, it can be see as true like this. Way back in 1941 Hitler made the single choice to invade the USSR. As a result he lost the war and we have the world like it today, but if He chooses to make the opposite design our world would be very far away from the one we have. However at the time the decision was made it didn't make that much of a difference. You can think of today too. If we have the cure for cancer tomorrow we will start to cure people but overall not much has changed, but in 50 years there is now more people living than would have and is significantly different than a world without the cure.

4. Legalization would increase the number of children having access to it
Capone did deal with alcohol bootlegging, but most of his power came from the casinos that the mob operated. [2] There is indeed a reason prohibition was lifted, and it was lack of enforcement "Undercover police officers were trying to do their jobs, but the available manpower was still tiny in comparison with the thriving industry. Even when arrests were made, corruption made it nearly impossible to convict anyone. For example, during one time period more than 7,000 arrests were made in New York for alcohol violations, and only 17 of those ended in conviction. Many states eventually grew tired of the hassle. In fact, by 1925 six states had developed laws that kept police from investigating infractions. Cities in the Midwest and Northeast were particularly uninterested in enforcing Prohibition " [3]
As far as never be tried again, there are numerous counties that are dry. "Nearly half of Mississippi's counties are dry. Alabama, Arkansas, Texas, Kansas and Virginia also have a large proportion of dry counties. Kentucky isn't much better for alcohol lovers. Thirty counties are wet and 55 are bone-dry." [4]
As far as crime dropping, there are less people committing criminal acts. An example is there is 10 people 1 person is a marijuana user (criminal) and 2 people are other criminals. This means there is 30% crime rate, but if you legalize marijuana then the crime rate drops to 20%. Nothing changed besides how you classified that person.

5. Drug related arrest benefit society
A billion dollars sounds like a lot but it isn't. Also Excise taxes are not good for raising revenue. In 2012 the tobacco tax, the most revenue raising excise tax, raised about 17 billion dollars [5] and the federal budget was 3.5 Trillion [2], so that tax is about 0.5% of the federal budget. As I have shown legalization would increase crime, and has a mass of bad health effects. Increased crime and increased health issues will only hurt the economy. As for my 12 source, it is on page 6. I agree rehabilitation would be better, and that is what we should focus on.

6. Legalization of marijuana will lead to the legalization of other drugs
Many arguments made for the legalization of marijuana can be used to argue the legalization of harder drugs like heroin. As an example, many say marijuana should be legal because it is less harmful than alcohol; however, so are many other drugs including crack, meth, and heroin. [6] Also, saying things like "it is my choice" which could be said about any drug.


Sources
[1] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
[2] http://pabook.libraries.psu.edu...
[3] http://history.howstuffworks.com...
[4] http://history.howstuffworks.com...
[5] http://www.whitehouse.gov...
[6] http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org...


P.S. I would do a euthanasia debate.
Debate Round No. 3
Letsdebate24

Pro

2. Marijuana has bad health effects
The vast majority of people that already use marijuana don't go out just getting high where ever they feel like it. They are ordinary people that use it in the privacy of the own homes. Those that you do see using it irresponsibly are almost entirely teenagers and people in their early twenties. Its because young people have not matured enough to be trusted to use a substance such as alcohol hence the requirement being 21. Yes you have to have food to survive but not unhealthy food. Its a choice that you make, whether to eat healthy or not. Why is smoking it a problem? When in a hospital you can be given medication through a needle which is a common means of delivery to an addict. Delivery is not a means to determine whether its wrong or immoral. If marijuana did actually have even moderate side effects they would not prescribe it to treat over 230 illnesses. Its prescribed to treat more things than any other drug known to medicine except antibiotics.

3. Use of marijuana is immoral
That was the problem, the examples you gave were not logical in the first place so the conclusion of the scenario would be equally illogical. As for your example of cannibalism, that is on the other end of the moral spectrum. Though it has happened before Hannibal isn't exactly a figure people are eager to copy and attempt to legalize. People are allowed to donate their body to science and have their organs on display in a museum and this caused a major controversy with many people. They believed it to be immoral for someone to allow their body to be defiled in a such a way but despite the objections it was determined that it was the right of the individual to do with their body what they want.
Suppose abortion was legalized, that doesn't force anyone to have it done and besides that it involves the life of someone that cannot defend nor make any objection. The child is completely and utterly at the mercy of its mother.
These examples are too extreme! Your talking about lives being taken in brutal ways.
Stealing is deemed immoral because your imposing your will unto others. Marijuana is not something that affects other people (unless you smoke it around someone without their permission) You keep bringing up things that involve harming other people. The butterfly effect is an impossible theory to prove because there is no way to know what triggered a situation to happen. It could literally be caused from anything. If someone had a impulse to go some place they never had an interest in they could be in the wrong place at the wrong time and end up being hit by a car and killed but if they had not had the impulse they wouldn't have went to the place and still be alive. It is an impossibly unpredictable theory.

4. Legalization would increase the number of children having access to it
[2] "the available manpower was still tiny in comparison with the thriving industry" By your own words you described why prohibition cannot work. Our government is throwing trillions of dollars and thousands of lives at the war on drugs and yet its rapidly loosing support as the videos ive provided have shown. Corruption is a virulent problem especially today!
They are uninterested in enforcing prohibition because they know it is a fight they cannot hope to win and they are just wasting lives and money.
[4] Criminals are going to commit crimes no matter what drug they might use. That's why they're called criminals. Simply smoking marijuana does not make someone to criminal things so to be fair 10% of your statistic had done nothing criminal accept using marijuana while 20% had actually committed a crime. If marijuana were to be legalized the crime rate would drop substantially because simply using marijuana is considered a crime. Actual crimes such as rape, murder, and stealing are crimes, using a substance in the privacy of your own home or establishment is not a crime. You said yourself "Nothing changed besides how you classified that person" In other words legalizing it would not make matters worse. Using marijuana doesn't make people want to go out and commit serious crimes.

5. Drug related arrest benefit society
A billion isn't a lot? Tax payers would disagree. If marijuana were taxed the same way you could have substantial profits. That was just Florida, suppose the other 49 states spent a billion each that's 50 billion. That's money that could substantially benefit something like the education system or the medical field. Just because its not the majority of the federal budget doesn't mean that its not a massive waste of money. You have not shown that crime would increase, you can predict that it might increase but there is no way to prove crime would increase. The only thing you can prove is that if it were legalized all those that were using it illegally would no longer be a part of the criminal statistic. Crime statistic therefore goes down.

6. Legalization of marijuana will lead to the legalization of other drugs
Crack, meth, and heroin are not less harmful than alcohol they are among the most highly addictive substances there are with the most detrimental health effects. Many politicians and law enforcement are pushing to have drugs legalized altogether because of the utter failure of prohibition. I provided those sources earlier in the debate. I personally don't care to have any other drug legalized but can admit that it would save the American taxpayers a literal fortune. Portugal is a great example of how complete legalization can benefit a country. Since they legalized all drugs the crime rates dropped drastically.

P.S. When this debate is over ill start a euthanasia debate with you
Guidestone

Con

1. Marijuana is a gateway
I don't feel as if you refuted the basic argument here. You did claim that it might not be the first pick of drugs, but that doesn't mean it is not a gateway.

2. Marijuana has bad health effects
Also the base claim here that marijuana has a multitude of bad health effects is not refuted.
You cannot link fast food to marijuana because they have different effects. Fast food is bad for you, but it doesn't distort perception, or other direct medical effects like marijuana does. They are both unhealthy, but they are bad in different ways. Why is smoking a problem, because it causes direct harm to the self, and others right around it. Someone eating a cheeseburger next to you isn't going to affect your health. Many drugs have very serious side effects, but they are still prescribed by doctors. Just because it has side effects doesn't mean it won't be prescribed.

3. Use of Marijuana is Immoral
As for cannibalism, lives are not being taken away in brutal ways. If someone dies and their final wish is for people to consume their body it is no different than people donating their body to science. After all it is the "right of the individual to do with their body what they want." As for abortion I said according to some people it is true, apparently neither of us think that way.
You then say "Marijuana is not something that affects other people (unless you smoke it around someone without their permission)" which isn't true. There is something called Third-hand smoke, which is "Third-hand smoke is a term used to describe the particles and gases that are left over after a cigarette is extinguished. These particles land and remain on virtually any surface in an area where someone has smoked -- on clothes, in hair, on furniture and on flooring." [1] Third-hand smoke has been shown to be especially dangerous to children. [2] Smoking anything is more harmful than to just that person who is smoking.
The butterfly effect is similar to the origin of the first life. It is a historical science meaning it is not something you can use the scientific method for since it is not repeatable. No one can prove how the first life occurred, just like no one can prove the butterfly effect. Both of these are based on philosophy, current evidence, or reasoning.

4. Legalization would increase the number of children having access to it
Actually I showed why Alcohol prohibition eventually failed; however, it was a success in many other ways.
The War on drugs is not a failure. Monitoring the Future Study: Trends in Prevalence of Various Drugs
Drugs that have decreased in use (2010-2013) among 12th graders: Alcohol, Cigarettes, Smokeless Tobacco, Cocaine, Crack Cocaine, GHB, Hallucinogens, LSD, MDMA, Heroin, Inhalants, Ketamine, Methamphetamine, PCP, Ritalin, Narcotics other than Heroin, Vicodin, OxyContin, and Rohypnol. 19 drugs.
Drugs that have increased in use (2010-2013) among 12th graders: Marijuana, Amphetamine, and Adderall. 3 drugs.
[3] In 1978 daily use of marijuana use of 12 graders was about 11%, and in 2013 is is about 6%. [4] That is a decrease of about 45%.
Portugal crime rate has not changed much and actually shows an increase of reported crimes. [5] The immediate effect is nothing changed but how you classify people, but the long term effects show a correlation between marijuana use and crime as I have shown in previous rounds.

5. Drug related arrest benefit society
It equals about $50 per person in Florida. There is an inverse correlation between the incarceration rate and the crime rate. [6] The more the prison population is the less crime there is. Crime is also on a decrease according to Gallup. [7]

6. Legalization of marijuana will lead to the legalization of other drugs
"The British peer-reviewed journal Lancet published a study titled "Drug Harms in the UK: A Multicriteria Decision Analysis" on Nov. 1, 2010 which ranked 20 drugs from alcohol to marijuana to tobacco based on harm factors." They found Alcohol to be the most harmful. [8] You further prove my point by saying that they want to legalize drugs all together. Meaning that it will lead to legalization of things like heroin.

Sources
[1] http://lungcancer.about.com...
[2] http://www.sciencedaily.com...
[3] http://www.drugabuse.gov...
[4] http://www.monitoringthefuture.org...
[5] http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu...
[6] http://www.crimeandconsequences.com...
[7] http://www.gallup.com...
[8] http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org...

Debate Round No. 4
Letsdebate24

Pro

1. Marijuana is a gateway
Whether or not its a gateway is up to the person that takes it since there are no addictive properties. People are curious creatures by nature so its safe to say if people want to try one drug they are going to try another regardless of which one they start with. Since there are no addictive properties in marijuana it is peoples curiosity that pushes them to try other drugs the same curiosity that drove them to try marijuana.

2. Marijuana has bad health effects
I have refuted and proven there are no negative health effects in every post. It relieves headaches, nausea, pain, and its far more pure than any prescription drug humans make. You say we cannot link marijuana and fast food but it was used as a method of comparing negative health effects. Marijuana has far less than fast food. Yes it does distort you perception but when used responsibly there is nothing wrong with that. It distorts far less than alcohol which is legal. The vast majority of people that use marijuana never get into any trouble unless they drive because it is a drug that puts one into a calm state. Hence the slow hippy ish type behavior seen as typical. While it does distort it does not inhibit ones perception of right and wrong no matter how much they use but that is not the case with alcohol. I am speaking from a lifetime of experience growing up around people that used marijuana on a regular basis. If marijuana is so unhealthy why is it used in over 230 illnesses the vast majority of which are not terminal or severe. You claim that it causes direct harm to oneself but 1. What people put in their own body is none of anyones business 2. No one should be able to use it in a public setting where people who don't want to be around it might be unless the establishment has deemed its use on the property acceptable much like a bar allows cigarettes. Someone smoking marijuana in their home isn't going to affect someone outside the home.
The users of marijuana have seen the benefits and choose the drug because of the lack of health side effects. They have not proven any negative health effects. There hasn't been anyone that came forward saying "Marijuana ruined my health!" There are healing properties in the drug some of which believed to cure cancer hence the billions being spent studying it for a cure! There are reports of people diagnosed with a tumor in their brain and went through every option only to have them fail. But then they tried a hemp oil and their tumor started to decrease, it saved their lives when the prescription meds failed them. I provided these testimonials in previous videos. These are ordinary people that can see the potentials of one of the worlds most natural drugs.

3. Use of Marijuana is immoral
You said it yourself third hand smoke is a term used to describe the particles and gases that are left over after a CIGARETTE is extinguished. All three of the links ive provided say absolutely nothing about marijuana. Third hand smokes seems to pertain specifically to cigarettes which as we all know is pumped full of harmful chemicals while marijuana is not.
Basically the butterfly effect is useless by your own statement. Wouldn't be able to use it in court

http://lungcancer.about.com...
http://www.scientificamerican.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

4. Legalization would increase the number of children having access to it
Whether it was somewhat of a success since they deemed it not to be effective enough to keep in effect. All the evidence I provided in previous rounds have proven the opposite to be true on drug consumption hence all the politics and law enforcement trying to do away with prohibition.
You claim that Portugal has had an increase in crimes but provided no evidence other than your claim. You should actually watch all these videos they are very educational. There are many more if you want to see them.

(kid uses marijuana to help breathing disorder)

At least watch the last two.

5. Drug related arrest benefit society
Watch the videos

6. Legalization of marijuana will lead to the legalization of other drugs
Again the evidence I have provided has proven otherwise and if need be I can provide many more.
Guidestone

Con

1. Marijuana is a gateway
No addictive properties? A high is an addictive property. "According to NIDA, marijuana is the most commonly abused illicit drug in the U.S." [1] " It is estimated that 9 percent of people who use marijuana will become dependent on it." [2] "Some drugs are very physically and psychologically addictive and have obvious, terrible withdrawal symptoms. These are easy to identify, such as heroin, barbiturates or alcohol. Others like marijuana are psychologically addictive, and the withdrawal includes psychological symptoms like anxiety, mood swings and depression." [1] Marijuana is indeed addictive.

2. Marijuana has bad health effects
No negative health effects? really? "In one study, it was estimated that marijuana users have a 4.8-fold increase in the risk of heart attack in the first hour after smoking the drug. This may be due to increased heart rate as well as the effects of marijuana on heart rhythms, causing palpitations and arrhythmias." [3] "Marijuana smoke is an irritant to the lungs, and frequent marijuana smokers can have many of the same respiratory problems experienced by tobacco smokers, such as daily cough and phlegm production, more frequent acute chest illness, and a heightened risk of lung infections. " [3] " High doses of marijuana can produce a temporary psychotic reaction (involving hallucinations and paranoia) in some users, and using marijuana can worsen the course of illness in patients with schizophrenia." [3] "Marijuana use during pregnancy is associated with increased risk of neurobehavioral problems in babies." [3] There are many negative health effects, to claim there are none is just incorrect.
Further, to keep saying that is less harmful than alcohol and that is legal is implying I want to keep alcohol legal, which I clearly stated I don't, so it has no influence.
"Someone smoking marijuana in their home isn't going to affect someone outside the home." You don't know that. Smoke will leave that house and can go over to neighbor's house or you could have third hand smoke.
Yes, marijuana might have some medical qualities, but the is about legalizing marijuana as a whole not just medical marijuana.

3. Use of Marijuana is immoral
It is true they mention cigarettes, and don't mention marijuana, but you missed the point. You have to look at why third hand smoke is a problem. "Chemicals that are left over after smoking land on any surface in an area where smoking has taken place. Studies have found that of chemicals in third-hand smoke, 11 are carcinogens (substances capable of causing cancer.)" [4] It is the chemicals, and carcinogens left over from smoking. Further, "Smoke from tobacco and cannabis contains many of the same carcinogens and tumor promoters" [5] Concluding, third hand smoke from marijuana will be just as bad.
The butterfly effect is mostly associated with weather prediction, and closely associated with Chaos theory. [6]

4. Legalization would increase the number of children having access to it
I just named 19 drugs that have decreased in use in the last 3 years, and only 3 drugs increased. Further, the major decrease in marijuana use shows it is still effective.
"You claim that Portugal has had an increase in crimes but provided no evidence other than your claim." You mean when I said "Portugal crime rate has not changed much and actually shows an increase of reported crimes. [5]" There is a source there, it was published by the EU tracking crime in multiple countries including Portugal.

5. Drug related arrest benefit society
I am not sure which one was suppose to refute any claim I made here like the correlation between Incarceration rate and crime rate.

6. Legalization of marijuana will lead to the legalization of other drugs
Really? Look at your arguments for legalizing it.
X should be legal because we could tax it and make money.
"What people put in their own body is none of anyone's business"
That drug prohibition does not work.
X is less harmful than alcohol.

You could apply those to any drug whether it is heroin or marijuana, so if these arguments are valid for marijuana then you must also agree they are valid for heroin too.


Sources
[1] http://www.psychologytoday.com...
[2] http://www.drugabuse.gov...
[3] http://www.drugabuse.gov...
[4] http://lungcancer.about.com...
[5] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
[6] http://www.realclimate.org...
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Letsdebate24 2 years ago
Letsdebate24
The two videos at the top right are meant to be at the bottom
No votes have been placed for this debate.