The Instigator
mostlogical
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
Tough
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

Martial art instructors should not teach children a martial art

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Tough
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/28/2015 Category: Sports
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 694 times Debate No: 79147
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (1)

 

mostlogical

Pro

I agree with the statement 'Martial art instructors should not teach children a martial art'. My opponent must argue why children should be allowed to learn martial arts

Definitions:

Martial art: codified system and tradition of combat practice
Children: people who are under the age of 18

R1: acceptance - with or without argument
R2 arguments
R3: arguments
R4: conclusion - no new arguments
Tough

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
mostlogical

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent for accepting.

Martial Art instructors are deceptive bullies who tell students they are learning how to fight, take hits, condition their body etc when really all they are learning is to accept abuse. Students enter a submissive relationship from day one when they call a stranger their master who they must obey and bow to.

Feel free to click the link below to watch evidence showing that children (and adults) are abused by their martial art instructors. They get away with this because nobody seems to recognise when someone is abused!

https://www.youtube.com.........

Just in case you don't think students are abused, check out the video below.

https://www.youtube.com.........

I could provide a much larger list. Here is another piece of evidence of abuse, if you lie to a black belt what happens is you get treated cruelly, that guy at the end of video probably thinks this is okay like many who started martial arts at a young age. The instructors excuse for posting this video is: 'what if he wants to open a gym and teach martial arts?' Let me make this clear, there is no good reason to abuse someone! He didn't even ask for the guy's permission to film him, and the guy was probably mentally ill.

https://www.youtube.com.........

Children need exercise however there are far better alternatives than martial arts e.g. boxing which does teach people to control their aggression and prevent violence, unlike martial arts which encourages fighting. I can imagine children being hurt while "playing" i.e. trying to do perform the taught techniques (or their own made up ones) during school lunch. They may even pick fights to gain some practice needed to win a stupid competition, or take out their frustration on others after not recieving a coloured belt. I have heard instructors say that kids will always pick up sticks, and fight, this is a BS excuse to feel what they do is right. There are plenty of other things children enjoy doing like play football and tennis, these should be encouraged, not violent sports.

Martial art instructors train children to have the skill to break bones, knock people outand cause serious injury etc which a typical schoolyard bully would not be able to do even if he loved watching kungfu movies. It's very easy to think the kids who learn a martial art are all trained to be respectful good guys, but the reality is they are too young to take such responsibility and will be more willing to allow others to abuse them just to get the next colour belt, see video below

https://www.youtube.com......

Also, martial art instructors can easily persuade their young students to visit them for private lessons and then sexually abuse them [1] and clean their car like in the film - 'the karate kid'

Martial arts can make a child overly confident, and put their life in greater danger e.g. if a burglar enters their house or someone wants to rape them they may stay and fight rather than run and phone the police. It is always safer to avoid confrontations in every situation, bullying at school is best prevented by telling the teacher who can talk to the bullies parents. I don't think children will follow sensible advice though if they are learning a martial art.

I have provided quite a lot of reasons why children should not be taught a martial art. I look forward to your response

sources:

[1] http://patch.com.........
Tough

Con

YouTube Links
All of Pro's links lead to YouTube's homepage. Thus, he has thus far got no evidence in video form for his points and event hen he'd have to prove that one instance of abuse occurring means that all martial arts are taught this same way..

The ‘Bully’ Case
Pro states that Martial Arts instructors are deceptive bullies but if they were deceptive, surely they’d be successfully hiding the fact that they were bullies and he wouldn’t be raising the point.

On top of this flaw, Pro suggests that because Martial Arts involves teaching combat and how to handle it that the student is being abused and ‘bullied’ by the instructor. Very few martial arts ever actually involve any real striking of the body in training as opposed to tournaments or practise fights. One example Kyokushin Karate [http://www.blackbeltmag.com...] whose philosophy is to make the boy so hard and powerful that self-defence becomes almost unnecessary and is very often only taught with full honesty and parental consent due to how rigorous it is on the body. There is absolutely no deception involved and anyone who undertakes it is fully entitled to ask what the training methods are.

Other Martial Arts that involve contact-based training include Shaolin Kung Fu [https://thaingwizard.files.wordpress.com...], Jeet Kune Do [http://www.blackbeltmag.com...] and a few others. The vast majority of martial arts do not involve contact in the training itself but rather involve teaching one how to avoid contact and practising dodging or blocking techniques or at the very worst, grappling.

As for the entire ‘bully’ concept of an instructor it is very important to note that both in real life and movies, the primary reason people begin martial arts are either because they themselves are bullies and are rather unruly and need a good outlet for their anger that is disciplined or they themselves are victims of bullying and want to learn ways to stick up to the bullies without outright killing them. Often weaker people feel the need to be more lethal with their moves such as neck-jabs or eye gouges and end up looking worse in the eyes of the law and teachers no matter how they justify it. Through martial arts training they can learn how to still be weaker but perhaps more agile and fast so that they dodge the bully’s moves and have him on the floor begging for mercy without really damaging his body in any way other than twisting a few limbs.

Martial Arts does not just help bullying by disciplining bullies and giving victims a way to out-fight them non-lethally, it sometimes is literally a good way for people with a bully mentality or people with an inferiority complex to release those emotions and overcome them in a safe controlled environment [http://www.urbandojo.com...]. Imagine you are someone who had a rough upbringing or is simply sadistic by nature, there is no way for you to enjoy activities where you are not hurting other people and sports may seem too team-based for you while you like to hurt people and know it’s only you causing that pain. Psychopathic individuals or people on that spectrum would otherwise resort to bullying if they didn’t have an activity like a martial arts tournament to enjoy causing pain without losing control or being a danger to society. Additionally, this is further reason to encourage children to learn it more so than adults as a child’s self-control (for bullies) and self-esteem (for victims) are often very fragile in comparison with older individuals [http://web.stanford.edu...(2009,%200-3)%20Self-Control%20and%20the%20Developing%20Brain.pdf]

Aside from those benefits, exercise itself is a great way of curing depression and other issues such as anxiety. A timid or depressed individual needs to begin to feel strong and/or powerful if they are ever to feel ‘whole’ again as a person. Martial arts offers them a cure to almost all victim-based psychological issues at once and is therefore one of the best all-in-one solutions to a victim’s mind-set [http://www.amadojo.net...].

A child is submissive to their parents and their teachers too, often referring to a teacher as ‘sir’ or ‘miss’ (short for mistress). Sir and mistress are common terms used for doms/dommes in the BDSM community [http://www.evilmonk.org...] yet children call their teachers and/or superiors in many walks of life these things every day. Ma’am could also be considered the equivalent of mistress in certain contexts. Submission isn’t a bad thing for children to experience, it is simply a good way for them to learn respect and to submit to the good role models while resisting submission to the bad ones which more often than not are their very own peers.

Select examples of abuse do not disprove the overall benefits
If I linked you to a series of select examples of domestic abuse either husband-wife based or parent-child, you would begin to think it was horrific that everyone wasn’t in foster care and that families even existed since the privacy of a home can allow all kinds of filthy things to go on. Then if I showed you examples of abuse in foster care you’d think the opposite. All systems are open to abuse and examples are there for almost anything. Workplace power can be abused, bosses molesting their secretaries is not unheard of either. Does this mean no-one should be a member of a family or workplace? No, it really does not. Martial Arts instructors are among the most disciplined individuals on Earth. Their abuser will most likely be purely disciplinary in nature and have at least a remote reason for it. Sexual abuse or physical abuse with no disciplinary motive behind it is next to 0% of abuse heard of in martial arts. On the other hand, this is not at all true for domestic abuse or workplace abuse. Teacher-student abuse doesn’t mean that children should stop going to school either. This ridiculous approach not only is fallacious but backfires as martial arts abuse is almost always with some reason and used purely for discipline while abuse in other examples of child-submission are often without any sensible disciplinary motive and are horrifically sexual or anger-prone in nature without any rational motive for the outbreak.

The abuse reversal gambit
So let’s say that we had an abusive parent and they fancied sending their child somewhere that the child would suffer even more. Due to the harsh reputation of martial arts, many parents of this kind may send their child there and laugh at the thought of their child suffering beneath a harsh master. If there was no reputation for abuse in martial arts, abusive parents wouldn’t send their kid there but since there is many do. And it’s the best abuse reversing mistake of all-time because guess what happens next time daddy comes to feel his little girl up or beat his son or wife? Bruce Lee combines with Jack the Ripper and that parent is on the floor before they can blink and their kid is making them beg for mercy but it won’t come this time. The abusive parent was defeated by sending their child to a place they thought would make them suffer but merely made them stronger and wiser.

Debate Round No. 2
mostlogical

Pro

I apologise for the faulty youtube links, it seems they don't work when copy and pasted. I’ll fix this issue. The video which brought my attention to the abuse in martial arts is below

https://www.youtube.com...

My opponent says “he'd have to prove that one instance of abuse occurring means that all martial arts are taught this same way.

So Con thinks that every single martial art instructor must be abusive for it to be banned for children, and also thinks that I cannot show any more than one instance of abuse despite showing many links (which unfortunately didn’t work).

He then goes on to say if they were deceptive, surely they’d be successfully hiding the fact that they were bullies and he wouldn’t be raising the point”.

So Con thinks that because I can tell when a martial art instructor is abusive and he can’t, they are not deceptive bullies. This is a very unconvincing and poor argument.

Martial art instructors are deceptive because they claim to teach confidence and respect. Learning to be obedient or doing what you are told e.g. bowing, does not teach you to be respectful; it teaches you to be submissive, and this is the opposite of what confident is. What they teach is not as useful as they claim e.g. it does not reduce bullying or crime. However it does raise the chance of someone being killed by trying to be a hero by stopping an armed robber. When a student is asked to close their eyes before being knocked out, it should be clear that the student is being abused.

Con states “Very few martial arts ever actually involve any real striking of the body in training as opposed to tournaments or practise fights.”

Here are some examples of people being abused during TRAINING

https://www.youtube.com...

https://www.youtube.com...

https://www.youtube.com...



I could find many more videos highlighting abusive instructors in every style of martial art, but I won’t as they are all codified systems of fighting techniques claiming to teach the same thing.

Just encase you still think abuse does not occur in dojos, and it’s all fake or normal training I have made a link below.

https://www.youtube.com...

If you still have doubts whether it is real, and want to study the full graphic version without subtitles click the link below – warning very graphic

https://www.youtube.com...


Con says “people begin martial arts are either because they themselves are bullies and are rather unruly and need a good outlet for their anger that is disciplined or they themselves are victims of bullying and want to learn ways to stick up to the bullies without outright killing them

People who enjoy hurting others should not learn martial arts when they are growing up, they are more likely to become abusive instructors. Teaching children how to fight is not the best way to tackle bullying, it is like giving Americans a gun to solve murder, it doesn’t work! And is completely unnecessary! Children who are taught martial arts are less likely to tell a teacher or parent, or scream for help, and are more likely to deal with something their self by arranging fights.

Anyone can be a bully, the fact instructors can be abusive shows this is true. Children under 18 are suffering more pain than they would if martial arts were not taught when they are young. It is irresponsible to expect children to not misuse these fighting techniques. If children were encouraged to do other things they would be friendlier to each other instead of experimenting moves (and dangerous made-up ones) on others.

My opponent talks about dojo’s being a safe controlled environment however there are many trainers who abuse their position of trust. Here is just one example:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

Students often call teachers ‘sir or miss’ but they do not have to form a line and take it in turns to shake their hand, bow or thank them like in Dojo’s to be educated like in the video below:

https://www.youtube.com...


There is no way a student can know whether their instructor is a good role model, because not all of them are, and they do not all have respect for others despite receiving more training. If martial artists are taught respect, why are so many abusive?

Here is one more video I’d like you to look at:

https://www.youtube.com...

Should every student be taught how to knock someone out or learn how to revive someone on the off chance they will start their own dojo without telling anybody? This trainer clearly performs these moves for personal reasons. He deceives everyone around him and does not have his students interest at heart. Sadly this is true for most martial art instructors; all they care about is taking your money or abusing you physically, mentally or sexually.

It is true that some parents abuse their own children. However abusive martial art instructors are a significant risk to the public!! I doubt many dojos allow cameras or phones whilst training, and much is unreported because their mind is conditioned to accept abuse, and it may not always be uploaded.

Places for childen to learn English, Maths, Science etc are needed but it’s not necessary for children to learn a martial art. Con simply simply wants to believe it is, there are better ways to receive exercise and you are less likely to be injuried.


My opponents last argument is purely wishful thinking. Parents are not sent flyers advertising the abusive nature of martial arts. Trainers will always want people to believe what they teach is important, and so will the students taught it. The truth is, in these times it is not, and it just spreads violence. Cage fighters learn martial arts. Deceptive bullies learn martial arts. Abused students learn martial arts.

Many thanks for reading.

Tough

Con

Broken link R2: It was a broken link, click here to visit the intended page: http://tinyurl.com...

Abuse and Banning

I find it amusing that Pro shows a few examples of discipline-based abuse within martial arts classes and thinks that this is sufficient reason to ban all minors from attending them. The fact of the matter is that there are videos of the abuse, there are far worse cases of abuse off-camera in both schools and homes. Does that mean school and family homes should be banned for children?

Schools:
There are cases of rape[1][2][3] (rape can be considered worse than simple sexual molestation), cases of physical abuse[4][5] (some/many countries even allow it legally including USA and 19 states within it)[6][7][8][9] and guess what else there are countless cases of in schools… the bullying that Pro says is rampant in martial arts[10][12][13] so much so that specific laws were made against school-based bullying[11].

Non-Foster Homes:
Whether to adults or to minors/children, abuse of sexual nature[14][15] is rampant in family homes[8][16][17]. It’s intermittent with physical abuse[16] and it’s not just ‘big bad dad’ it can even be siblings.[18][19][20][21]

Foster Homes:
Just as bad, if not worse. Sexual[22][23][24] and physical[23][25][26] abuse are widespread and extremely hard to get reported as most foster children escaped abusive homes just to find new ones so they lose hope (unseen psychological abuse is of course rampant in both foster and non-foster homes and likely to be far worse unmeasured statistics-wise).

Unless Pro would abolish all homes altogether, including the foster homes abused kids get sent to, and schools based on cases of abuse then he/she should kindly drop this angle altogether. Cases of abuse do not justify banning entire facilities from children any more than abuse to adults should justify banning them from adults. The pros outweigh the cons and misuse of something should not justify banning it if the benefits of it are far more common and statistically dominant.

Proportion and Dynamics of Abuse

Abuse in martial arts almost always is disciplinary in nature and done only by the instructor (which may seem to support the resolution but does not). The reason it is always the instructor doing the abuse is actually because it is always controlled and justified by some reason (whether there can ever be sufficient justification for physical abuse is another matter).

It is never the peers, siblings or even superior belts of the students doing the abuse. This is because the instructors of martial arts have extremely advanced comprehension of how to discipline people and maintain order, far more than most teachers at schools or parents at home do. The ‘bullying’ is never peer-to-peer and martial arts, as I proved in Round 2, but with domestic and school-based abuse it is rampant in all areas and all angles. Any motive, rational or not, can get an alcoholic dad, sadistic brother or sister, jealous peer or narcissistic teacher make you suffer. In martial arts soundness of mind is not only a fundamental concept in all of them but discipline of any and all emotions is too.[27] Soundness of mind is about being only in the present at all times, and perhaps in the near future but never to fight or act base on a long-held grudge or passionate love. Discipline of emotions is different to the non-violent version of this (Buddhism) and is most prominent in Shaolin Kung Fu, where the outlook is to put all your mental effort into what you are doing and only act based on a purposeful outcome of that act, whether it is to kill your opponent or to stop them killing you. Alternatively, the disciplined mind may feel the need to knock some sense into an unruly child (more often than not a bully, which Pro is so fanatic about deal with) and teaching them respect of authority. This doesn’t make bullies grow to become sadistic instructors, it gives them a good outlet for their rage and sadism (tournaments and practice fights) while controlling their urges outside of the times where they get the outlets.

The idea that instructors or black belts are somehow more abusive and arrogant than lower belts is a fundamental misunderstanding of how martial arts hierarchies work. There is no ‘top’ of the food chain as you can always be better than you are now and more likely than not there’s someone out that who can beat you up no matter how great you are at your particular martial art. Constant training and discipline is required so you not only prevent yourself getting worse but regardless of belt or position, can perhaps improve and get even better than you are now.

Am I saying that all martial arts instructors are benevolent or kind-hearted? No, I am certainly not. There are nasty people in any line of work, especially in position such as ‘boss’ or ‘instructor’. This is not reason to prevent people enjoying the benefits of a well-run martial arts class though, whether they be children or adults.

Sources:

[1] http://tinyurl.com...

[2] http://tinyurl.com...

[3] http://tinyurl.com...

[4] http://tinyurl.com...

[5] http://tinyurl.com...

[6] http://tinyurl.com...

[7] http://tinyurl.com...

[8] http://tinyurl.com...

[9] http://tinyurl.com...

[10] http://tinyurl.com...

[11] http://tinyurl.com...

[12] http://tinyurl.com...

[13] http://tinyurl.com...

[14] http://tinyurl.com...

[15] http://tinyurl.com...

[16] http://tinyurl.com...

[17] http://tinyurl.com...

[18] http://tinyurl.com...

[19] http://tinyurl.com...

[20] http://tinyurl.com...

[21] http://tinyurl.com...

[22] http://tinyurl.com...

[23] http://tinyurl.com...

[24] http://tinyurl.com...

[25] http://tinyurl.com...

[26] http://tinyurl.com...

[27] http://tinyurl.com...

Debate Round No. 3
mostlogical

Pro

I will not make any new arguements in this round, I will just try to sum up my main points and answer any questions.

My opponent says "there are far worse cases of abuse off-camera in both schools and homes. Does that mean school and family homes should be banned for children?"

My answer was: children need an education i.e. attend a school, but they do not need to attend a martial arts class. It seems Con is confusing domestic abuse with abuse caused by martial art instructors. They are not the same. Abusive martial art instructors pose a significant risk to the public, they can abuse a whole room full of young impressionable and vulnerable people, then another room full, and another after that before being caught. In fact they could continue to abuse people throughout their career because nobody is able to recognise abuse! This is why it is so serious and why it must be stopped!!

I have proven that a lot of abuse occurs inside dojo's, it is not just a few cases, and if it happens on camera it will obviously happen off camera too and probably be worse; possibly like the grahic video I shared. Each video shows students unaware of being abused (including adults), proving how easy it is for martial art instructors to deceive and abuse their students.

Learning a martial art is not useful for children. Con has failed to show how a child learning to be overconfident or able to defend theirself for self interest means they will help others i.e. prevent bullying. All I have seen in the videos is people learning to turn a blind eye to abuse, and think only of their self. Children are irresponsible by nature (they are not responsible adults yet) and will use martial art techniques to hurt others, and even try their own dangerous moves outside of a dojo. Taking up a martial art to stop bullying is not the answer, people need to be more aware of abuse and know how to act appropiately when they see it. Anyone can be a bully. The fact instructors can be makes this clear.

Learning a martial art will not reduce crime either, it raises a child's chance of being killed by trying to be a hero instead of calling the police, running or screaming. They may also become abusive martial art instructors themselves! Bullies should take up friendlier sports rather than be allowed to do what they enjoy - hurting others. My videos prove that respect is not taught, something they all claim to teach. Trainers do not respect their students and often use them for demonstrations, make them bow, sexually assault them etc.


Many thanks for having this debate. Please leave comments and don't forget to vote. Thanks


Tough

Con

Intro

After some hard thinking about how to approach this last round, I concluded that the best way to demolish Pro was not to go all-in and smash his case to pieces but rather to lay his case out bit by bit and slowly jab at each and every point making his case bleed, gradually to its ultimate demise. After all, beating someone up strategically and energy-efficient is one of many martial arts techniques that Pro has yet to learn and appreciate.

Pro’s First R4 point:

Children need an education i.e. attend a school, but they do not need to attend a martial arts class.

We had martial arts and fighting techniques before we had formal education. Humans have a basic innate need for self defense in any dangerous situation in life either to attack efficiently or defend an attacker efficiently. You will 100% both need and use martial arts in some way in your life even in manual labor positioning and warm ups to be efficient at it. You will not necessarily use any part of your education and humanity has had education far less than it has had martial arts and combat so if we’re arguing which is a need and which is a social construct for children, then education loses by miles.

Pro’s second R4 point:

It seems Con is confusing domestic abuse with abuse caused by martial art instructors. They are not the same.

Oh I know they’re not the same, I clearly stated and provided evidence supporting that domestic abuse is far worse. Perhaps Pro would know this if he didn’t skim-read my arguments and instead read them in-depth before daring to rebut them.

Pro’s third R4 point:

[This is how Pro attempts to prove that abusive martial arts must be stopped by banning children from it altogether but abusive education and domestic abuse must not]

Abusive martial art instructors pose a significant risk to the public, they can abuse a whole room full of young impressionable and vulnerable people, then another room full, and another after that before being caught.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure that school-based abuse is far more detrimental to the public and a teacher at school can damage them far more as can a foster parent in wide-scaled abuse of multiple children rather than setting an unruly student straight to give them a good taste of discipline which positively toughens them up without scarring them or having any long-lasting trauma from it.

Pro’s fourth R4 point:

In fact they could continue to abuse people throughout their career because nobody is able to recognise abuse! This is why it is so serious and why it must be stopped!

So could anyone in any career, this is not reason to ban anyone from it.

Pro’s fifth R4 point:

I have proven that a lot of abuse occurs inside dojos, it is not just a few cases

No buddy, you only proved a few case-by-case studies in the form of randomly filmed YouTube videos half of which were probably set up in some way because no sensible instructor would allow filming of his/her classes simply because they earn less if their lessons and way of practising are expose dot the public for free.

Pro’s sixth R4 point:

If it happens on camera it will obviously happen off camera too and probably be worse

Why would it be any worse off camera if you are saying these videos were not acting/set-up and were genuinely filmed in the moment of abuse without the instructor’s knowledge?

Pro’s further (ironic) ‘proof’ of his sixth point:

It will obviously happen off camera too and probably be worse; possibly like the graphic video I shared.

So your video is proof that it’s worse off-camera… Was your video filmed with something other than a camera? I didn’t think so.

Pro’s seventh R4 point:

Each video shows students unaware of being abused (including adults), proving how easy it is for martial art instructors to deceive and abuse their students.

How can someone be unaware of being abused… On top of this, why not ban it for adults too then? You are conceding that adults get just as deceived and abused and yet are only banning it for children… I’m truly at a loss as to what on Earth this point was trying to prove or signify.

Pro’s eighth R4 point:

Learning a martial art is not useful for children.

I’m sorry… but what did you just say? So, all the health benefits, psychological benefits and life-skills that are gained through martial arts (and which I previously mentioned and supplied reliable sources for) are non-existent now? There are numerous benefits of martial arts, please rebut my point raising all of them instead of using a sweeping statement in retort that proves absolutely nothing.

Pro’s ninth R4 point:

Con has failed to show how a child learning to be overconfident or able to defend himself/herself for self-interest means they will help others i.e. prevent bullying.

I never once said it would help them to help others but it would give them an ego-fuelling outlet for their aggression if they win fights in the ring regularly and would make them not need to bully nearly as much, if at all, to fulfil what they lacked psychologically beforehand.

Pro’s tenth R4 point:

Children are irresponsible by nature (they are not responsible adults yet) and will use martial art techniques to hurt others, and even try their own dangerous moves outside of a dojo.

First of all, a Dojo is for Japanese martial arts only. Other martial arts do not use dojos and it is very ignorant of Pro to use this term as if all martial arts are taught in one. Korean martial arts are taught in Dojangs and the Chinese vary from temples to schools to shrines but never dojos.

Secondly, this is completely ridiculous and has no evidence in support of it so I’m going to ask for evidence and automatically defeat it since there’s no further round for Pro to supply it.

Pro’s eleventh R4 point:

Taking up a martial art to stop bullying is not the answer, people need to be more aware of abuse and know how to act appropriately when they see it. Anyone can be a bully. The fact instructors can be makes this clear.

If anyone can be a bully should we ban all things since they can all be subject to bullying and abuse? I’ll give you a clue, the answer is not ‘yes’.

Pro’s twelfth R4 point:

Learning a martial art will not reduce crime either, it raises a child's chance of being killed by trying to be a hero instead of calling the police, running or screaming.

When did I say it reduces crime? Is this a new point in the last round being raised by Pro? You can’t raise new points in the last round and this is simply rebuking something I didn’t even raise.

Pro’s thirteenth R4 point:

Bullies should take up friendlier sports rather than be allowed to do what they enjoy - hurting others.

If they take up friendlier sports, they won’t be using it as an outlet for their rage or ego-deficiency. That’s like saying, give a cigarette addict some sugar to get a rush rather than supplying them with nicotine patches in order to cope with withdrawal (as if being addicted to sugar is somehow as good a solution).

Pro’s fourteenth R4 point:

My videos prove that respect is not taught, something they all claim to teach.

In all your videos the victim is taught to respect the perpetrator.

Pro’s fifteenth R4 point:

Trainers do not respect their students and often use them for demonstrations, make them bow, sexually assault them etc.

What in Bruce Lee’s name does this have to do with anything? Demonstrations and making a child bow respectfully before a fight are not even remotely abusive. Sexual abuse in martial arts is not proven to exist by Pro, no stats or anything is supplied. Maybe once in a blue moon it may occur but his is no reason to ban it.

Et voila.

Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by SolonKR 1 year ago
SolonKR
RFD Part 3
Conduct goes to Pro because of Con"s last round. There weren"t errors in S&G significant enough for me to award points to either side.
Arguments"Pro had the burden of proof to demonstrate that "Martial arts instructors should not teach children a martial art". His case rests almost entirely on incidences of abuse within the martial arts community, but his inability to quantify this point or respond to Con"s rebuttals that the abuse isn"t significant means that this point falls. Couple that with Con"s arguments that show the benefits of martial arts for children such as confidence, self-defense, and mood improvement, and arguments go decidedly to Con.
Sources"Pro"s sources were entirely either broken or links to YouTube videos of questionable veracity. Con"s sources were sometimes too vague to support his arguments, but, on the whole, they were far superior in every way. Sources to Con.
Posted by SolonKR 1 year ago
SolonKR
RFD Part 2
Round 3- Pro contests that he does not need to prove that all trainers are abusers, only some. He points out that reputation is really irrelevant to reality. His video evidence all demonstrates martial arts fighters and teachers physically harming students in some way. Pro again claims that the confidence boost potentially given by martial arts fighting is bad, again. It"s essentially just a repetition of his earlier statement in round one"I thus have to give the confidence argument to con. Pro claims that people who are bullies that take martial arts classes are more likely to become abusers themselves. Without a source for the argument, though, this fails. He continues to provide more examples of perceived abuse. He states that there are other ways to exercise than martial arts, rebutting Con"s argument about depression.
Con starts his round 3 argument by arguing that the abuse by martial arts teachers is no more prevalent than it is in schools or in homes, and thus, dojos are no worse than any other place. He argues that the physical violence is not abuse, but discipline.
Round 4- Pro opens the final round by downplaying the presence of abuse in schools by stating that they are necessary, but martial arts is not. He erroneously states that Con has made no arguments as to why children should learn martial arts (self-defense, confidence, exercise, and channeling all immediately come to mind). He then rehashes the same "overconfidence" point for a third time in this debate, and it"s still unsourced.
Con also continues rebuttals into the final round. He states that self-defense is a need even more basic than education. He personally attacks Pro in several spots, so I"m giving conduct to Pro. Con finally decides to pick apart Pro"s video evidence; I have to let the video evidence stand because it was rebutted too late, but the arguments about quantification of said violence are essentially expansions on Con"s previous round, so I"ll let them stand.
Posted by SolonKR 1 year ago
SolonKR
RFD Part 1
Round 2- Pro claims that martial arts instructors essentially teach kids to accept abuse, and this makes of the bulk of his R1 case. Given the video evidence presented (in round 3, as the links were broken initially), it is clear that abuse is being defined as physical harm, though said evidence has extremely questionable credibility. He goes on to claim that instructors sexually abuse and take advantage of kids. No source is provided. He ends the round by stating that martial arts instruction can make people overconfident.
Con opens up by stating that the physical stress students undergo is not abuse because A) most martial arts don"t ever involve actual contact in training, and B) the ones that do often openly provide factual information and require parental consent. His sources do not actually back up point B, though point A is adequately sourced. He argues that martial arts instruction is good for children because it enables weak children to defend themselves without resorting to drastic measures, and is an effective way to discipline bullies. He contends that the exercise involved in martial arts practice improves the mental health of children, specifically with regard to depression. He argues that submission is a normal fact of life for children and is not bad. He rebuts Pro"s abuse claim by stating that a few cases shouldn"t represent the whole. Con states that martial arts training does not have a reputation for abuse.
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: tajshar2k// Mod action: Removed<

3 points to Con (Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: The self defence wasn't explained entirely by Pro either. They say criminals won't care if you know martial arts to defend yourself but then says that they have no gun... What? Random videos of abuse doesn't prove anything and Pro didn't explain why they did either. Pro failed in refuting many of Con's points which were excersise

[*Reason for removal*] (1) The vote is practically copy-pasted from a vote on a debate of the same topic with the same person by this voter, which was written by Tough. Whatever the circumstances, this kind of voting is not allowed. (2) The vote addresses a perceived problem with Pro's arguments, but fails entirely to explain how Con is winning the debate.
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Posted by Tough 1 year ago
Tough
you were rebutting my points in your last round so shut up mate
Posted by Tough 1 year ago
Tough
You conclude your case by rebutting the other
Posted by mostlogical 1 year ago
mostlogical
The last round is a conclusion round, stated clearly in round 1. Instead of summing his points my opponent takes each sentence from my conclusion (which of course will seem vague) and then makes arguments. This is not acceptable.
Posted by robertacollier 1 year ago
robertacollier
Maybe we should ban all physical activity that requires thinking, coordination, discipline, and practice.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by SolonKR 1 year ago
SolonKR
mostlogicalToughTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.