The Instigator
HRSuperior
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Eeliejun
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Marxism needs to be retried

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/23/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 292 times Debate No: 85457
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

HRSuperior

Pro

Many nations have tried communism but none have really turned out all that well. In my opinion, Mao and Stalin were in no way communist. Now I know Marxism could be difficult to achieve due to natural human greed but what if there were a group of people who were completely willing to follow the ways of Marx? What if there was a modern day Lenin with supporters? Marxism has been achieved on small scales, so why don't we try and get it on the big scale?
Eeliejun

Con

So first of all I will introduce myself, I am aligned and I will be your debate partner I hope we will have a good debate also sorry if I make spelling mistakes I am not a native English speaker but I will try my best .^^
So my opinion about Marxism is a downright no!

Now you"re wondering why it could not work"
Yes, it could work in a perfect world, but face it, it isn"t one, so I will take all you"re your rules in account expect one human greed, because if you left that out then yeah Marxism would work but there is still other things to consider.
So we will imagine there is a group of people (about 10 million, for example) that want to follow a person like Lenin we will call him Artyom for now so we could go 2 ways with this Artyom is a leader of our glorious nation of Arstotzka or he is a party leader.

First scenario party leader:
Artyom would need a considerable time to rise to power like Lenin did, but for that to happen, he would need a big depression or the quality of life
Debate Round No. 1
HRSuperior

Pro

Alright, so first off I would like to state that many modern day countries are facing oppressive governments, high crime and depression. Marxism can fix this. If a nation of people get the same amount of food and water as each other, there will be no question on governmental favoritism and nobody will be treated worse than anybody else. This can prevent the lower class of criminals forming, as most criminal activity is just people trying to pay for survival. If all they need to survive is given to them, they would not need to get it by force.
Now about Artyom. There are many ways Artyom can seize power. There is the political party way of course, but that requires many months of hard work and dedication which uses valuable time. However, another way Artyom could gain control is by force. If enough people join together in true comradeship, this oppressive government could be overthrown and reinstated as a Marxist society. This revolution could be backed by other Communist societies.
Eeliejun

Con

True, but it's not so bad like ww2 Germany or ww2 Russia, where the oppression and hunger was so big that it exploded in a radical movement for change did you read my comment?Anyway,
here it the problem your forgetting human greed and the magnitude of recourses needed to keep every one happy even if you gave every one the same amount of food it would not work if you have 10 fish and 20 people, every one get a half of the fish, but that too little what I mean is that there are simply too little resources for a big pipeline the sustain itself and be happy also some families need more like a family whit Children need more fish so the children can grow, but you can't do that you must still give the same amount to every one see that what I mean to take control Artyom needs to seize power and like you said the issues way is by force they did that already in the soviet revolution by killing hunderde a thousand people you must never forget there are other people who think differently than you
Debate Round No. 2
HRSuperior

Pro

Yes, there could be a resource problem. However, this could be countered by people doing the same and necessary amount of work in order to maintain a proper amount of food and shelter. You said that 10 pieces of fish shared among 20 people was too little. That is true, but if each of those 20 people became fishermen and brought in 2 fish each everyday we would not have that problem. Or if 10 of those people brought in 4 fish each day and the other 10 went to collect and filter 2 buckets of water each day then everybody would have 2 fish and a bucket of water every night. Trade with other countries is an option as well. As for people not wanting a communist revolution, there are a few ways to approach this. Immigration, independence and propaganda are all things that are available in order to please those who wish something different become of their home.
Eeliejun

Con

Yes, true, but there is the problem you have too little resource for it to give the same amount to everyone else in your argument you stated if we have 10 fishermen that catch 4 fish each but what about persons that don't give something directly back, but they are needed like the persons working in logistics (truck driver, a captain of a ship and go on) or scientist, teachers, soldiers they are needed, but they don't contribute to the pool of recourses only consuming it so you will have a shortage of food because of it (and you need those people for a working country)
now about the second part: immigration could work but then the living standard need to be higher than in other countries in depends: that would create a very bloody war where most likely the rebels would lose or you must send our troops for our glorious nation of Arstotzka to support them
and as last propaganda yes that could work but again your living standards needs to be better than the other country to have a efect
Debate Round No. 3
HRSuperior

Pro

What if people could have more than one job? Think about it. The 10 fishermen could catch 4 fish and still control the ship. The captain might not even be needed with a good crew. Same goes with food suppliers like farmers, they could harvest the wheat and drive the truck in the same day. If the glorious nation of Arstotzka is attacked by evil Kolechians every farmer, fisherman, miner, etc. could grab a gun and defend their motherland before going back to whatever they were doing. Education during ancient times were done by religious figures who obviously were not primarily teachers. If I lived in this Marxist utopia I could be an oil fracker from 7 to noon while being a repairman from 1 to midnight.
And immigrants could go anywhere, they could drive to neighboring countries or fly to first world economic powerhouses. Fights and drives could be provided by miners doing their alternative jobs. Of course, it would be miles cheaper and easier to simply persuade the people with propaganda.
Eeliejun

Con

that would be impossible you need the knowledge to do the jobs you can't be a farmer the first 3 hours and then 3 hours a architect you need the knowledge for it your world works on a small scale, but not on a big one you need persons whit one job just because of the big work load truck drivers are the best examples it can take hours to drive from point a to b and that what unloading the cargo.
Also, if every one joins the fight thenwho will provide food will they go 3 hours to war and then go back to the farm and then again to war your army would starve? also about the teacher treu thy were religious leaders, but remember the education was only for the rich because of the small number of priests also they would influence their believes whit their teaching
Debate Round No. 4
HRSuperior

Pro

HRSuperior forfeited this round.
Eeliejun

Con

Eeliejun forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by HRSuperior 1 year ago
HRSuperior
sorry about the forfeit, I'm as busy as you.
Posted by HRSuperior 1 year ago
HRSuperior
I can tell you were in a hurry
Posted by HRSuperior 1 year ago
HRSuperior
ViceRegent, Marxism has never really been attempted. Only types of communism like Maoism and Stalinism have been used to the point of representing all communism.
Posted by ViceRegent 1 year ago
ViceRegent
Why? What aspect of reality has changed that makes you think enslaving people will work this time?
Posted by Eeliejun 1 year ago
Eeliejun
Also, sorry that is so spaced together, but there were two little Characters Remaining
Posted by Eeliejun 1 year ago
Eeliejun
sorry I couldn't post more of my argument so here it is

must be considerable low or/and the Citizens must feel that they are being oppressed by the government.
This is needed so that he can better promote his cause to the people, but I doubt he could rise to power without a revolution or oppression of a big number of people that don"t agree with him like the rich.

Second scenario leader of the nation:
In this scenario Artyom would have an easier way to spread and enact his idea of a perfect world, but not without stepping on some toes of influential people"
Now why Marxism works on a small scale, but not on a big one and that are two simple reasons, first one is greed and the second one are recourses.

It doesn't matter which country you take or how big it is, even if it would be the whole world the equal distribution of resource for every one is an impossible task only the logistics need for it is too big also an economic system like that only works for small scale if it gets bigger it collapses on itself because of its size too many mouths to feed and too little recourses to do it.

It"s a good idea on paper and In small communities, but in a bigger picture it has a lot of flaws.
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