The Instigator
Agent_D
Pro (for)
Losing
37 Points
The Contender
Kleptin
Con (against)
Winning
43 Points

Mary Deserves honor and reverence

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/6/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,591 times Debate No: 2458
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (20)

 

Agent_D

Pro

Mary was involved in the mysteries of Christ. As the most holy Mother of God she was, after her Son, exalted by divine grace above all angels and men. Hence the Church appropriately honors her with special reverence.

|One and Most profound proof|:

("Woman, behold your son!"—John 19:26-27).
Kleptin

Con

I believe that Mary deserves some amount of respect, but not reverence in the sense that most Catholics would see it. The reverence you are suggesting is more to the tune of worship, which I believe to be sacrilegious.

The commandment is to worship God and only God, and Mary is not a part of the trinity in any scriptures. Her only mention is as the birth mother of Jesus, and in the infancy narratives of Luke and Matthew. In the book of Mark, which predates all the others, Mary is hardly mentioned at all, and has almost no significance.

I have reason to believe that the infancy narratives were written much like Star Wars Episodes 1-3 were written to explain the rise and fall of Vader.
Debate Round No. 1
Agent_D

Pro

Thanks for your acceptance. I hope your a protestant.

Let me first clarify the word reverence with worship. I agree with you, worship is for God and Honor/reverence to Human. Catholic stands firmly with the following Points|:

a: It is forbidden to give divine honour / worship to the angels and saints(Like Virgin Mary) for this belongs to God alone.
b: We pay to the angels and saints an inferior honour, for this is due to them as the servants and special friends of God.

Those points that i've mentioned is another topic(another point to debate). but first let us determine why Mary Deserves honor and reverence.

Mary's role is so central to the story that it is foreshadowed in the past and continually active and celebrated in the present and future.

("WOMAN, behold your son!"—John 19:26-27).
Here we can see how much weight given by John(the beloved apostle) to Mary as the mother of Church. He recorded clearly the words of our God(Christ) to magnify that Mary is indeed has a pivotal role in our church. You might ask that how can you tell the Mary is the "WOMAN" mentioned by Christ during his cruxifiction?and how catholic relates Mary with only single word(WOMAN)into the entire book of Salvation?
First:
Old Testament: Gen.3:13-15 " I will put enmity between you(devil) and the WOMAN" correlated by john 19:26-27. Here John echoes the an important prophesy of the Old Testament.(First Prophesy Ever made). the woman prophetically foretold who would bear a child who would defeat the dreaded Dragon.
Book of Revelation: Rev. 12:1 the WOMAN with a crown of twelve stars.
Old and new testament correlate each how the Role of Mary was. The affirmation of Mary that gives her important role in salvation History of mankind not because Christ is her son.
Kleptin

Con

"Mary's role is so central to the story that it is foreshadowed in the past and continually active and celebrated in the present and future.

("WOMAN, behold your son!"—John 19:26-27).
Here we can see how much weight given by John(the beloved apostle) to Mary as the mother of Church. He recorded clearly the words of our God(Christ) to magnify that Mary is indeed has a pivotal role in our church. You might ask that how can you tell the Mary is the "WOMAN" mentioned by Christ during his cruxifiction?and how catholic relates Mary with only single word(WOMAN)into the entire book of Salvation?"

First of all, scholarly consensus of Catholic Theologians is that the Gospel of John was not written by an eyewitness, and was most likely constructed by a group of highly intelligent people. As it was found in the original Greek, there are several differences in writing style and the Gospel of John is much less a narrative in the sense of true storytelling as it is a piece of art as well as philosophical teaching. Literary motifs and prose that reflect Greek literature show that the authors went to great lengths to make this a piece of literature, not a retelling of facts. The piece was also written around 90 or 100 AD, about 50 to 60 years after Jesus of Nazareth died on the cross. At this point in time, Christian communities began to include both men and women, which is why the importance of women is stressed here. This is also an explanation as to why the authors give special attention to Mary. Mary's significance is not found in any of the other three canonical gospels, so it is reasonable to assume that the writers of the Gospel of John merely wrote this in order to appeal to their congregation. Remember that in this time period, there was no organized church.

"First:
Old Testament: Gen.3:13-15 " I will put enmity between you(devil) and the WOMAN" correlated by john 19:26-27. Here John echoes the an important prophesy of the Old Testament.(First Prophesy Ever made). the woman prophetically foretold who would bear a child who would defeat the dreaded Dragon.
Book of Revelation: Rev. 12:1 the WOMAN with a crown of twelve stars.
Old and new testament correlate each how the Role of Mary was. The affirmation of Mary that gives her important role in salvation History of mankind not because Christ is her son."

I don't doubt the correlation, since the authors of the Gospel of John borrowed extensively from Hebrew scripture in order to play many metaphors and symbols, which were big literary devices in Greek literature of that era. However, the book of revelations was dated to the same time and allegedly the same authors as the Gospel of John.

Thus, it is obvious that the connection would be found in those two books, since they were written by the same people for the same congregation at the same time.

This means that only a small group of people, the writers of John, believed that Mary was some sort of figure to be "revered" as the mother of all Christians.

In that case, there's really no need to revere Mary.
Debate Round No. 2
Agent_D

Pro

"the Gospel of John was not written by an eyewitness, and was most likely constructed by a group of highly intelligent people."

- Reading your assertion does'nt debunked the proposition as a whole. the authenticity of the Fourth Gospel was scarcely ever seriously questioned only until the end of the eighteenth century. And to address the following baseless "Theory/Hypothesis" We need to put invoke "fact"

"we discover the universally admitted fact that, from the eighteenth century back to at least the third, the Apostle John was accepted without question as the author of the Fourth Gospel. In the examination of evidence therefore, we may begin with the third century, and thence proceed back to the time of the Apostles.

Of still greater importance is the testimony of St. Iren´┐Żus, Bishop of Lyons (d. about 202), linked immediately with the Apostolic Age as he is, through his teacher Polycarp, the disciple of the Apostle John. The native country of Irenaeus (Asia Minor) and the scene of his subsequent ministry (Gaul) render him a witness of the Faith in both the Eastern and the Western Church. He cites in his writings at least one hundred verses from the Fourth Gospel, often with the remark, "as John, the disciple of the Lord, says". In speaking of the composition of the Four Gospels, he says of the last: "Later John, the disciple of the Lord who rested on His breast, also wrote a Gospel, while he was residing at Ephesus in Asia" (Adv. Haer., III, i, n. 2). As here, so also in the other texts it is clear that by "John, the disciple of the Lord," he means none other than the Apostle John.
Papias and the other ancient writers have in mind but one John, namely the Apostle and Evangelist, and not some other Presbyter John, to be distinguished from the Apostle. (See JOHN THE EVANGELIST, SAINT)." na.org

Now, to re-aligned the topic, Both Old and New Testament Testify the major role of Mary as the mother of Church, Queen Mother, the new eve and the new ark of covenant. Citing those title are synonymous with honor and respect.

Mother of Church - As christ entrusting Her to John the apostles who belongs to the First Christian Church.

Queen Mother - As Christ came from David Kingdom, we have to put her in a Davidic Tradition that only One Queen, this is the King's Mother.(see Old Testament)

New Ark of Covenant - in Old testament we see what inside the Ark of Covenant
old Testament New Testament (inside the womb of Mary)
a)Ten Commandment Christ as a perfect Law
b)Iron Rod symbol of High Priest Christ as a High Priest
c)Manna as a food Christ is the living bread-food of life

Again, Catholic will assert that Honor and Reverence is not a kind of Worship that is due only to God. Reading Salvation |History tell us that those title are kept and hold with respect not with worship.

MARY DESERVE HONOR AND REVERENCE.
Kleptin

Con

"Reading your assertion does'nt debunked the proposition as a whole. the authenticity of the Fourth Gospel was scarcely ever seriously questioned only until the end of the eighteenth century.

(long quote follows)"

Your entire "counterpoint" is moot. First of all, it doesn't matter whether it was questioned in the 19th century, 18th century or 5th century. The fact remains that it is questioned now and the evidence points to "No". Thus, what someone said about the Gospel of John circa 202AD (which is bad data anyway since the piece was dated to 90AD) is irrelevant as the position TODAY is that it is highly unlikely.

"Now, to re-aligned the topic, Both Old and New Testament Testify the major role of Mary as the mother of Church, Queen Mother, the new eve and the new ark of covenant. Citing those title are synonymous with honor and respect

Mother of Church - As christ entrusting Her to John the apostles who belongs to the First Christian Church.

Queen Mother - As Christ came from David Kingdom, we have to put her in a Davidic Tradition that only One Queen, this is the King's Mother.(see Old Testament)

New Ark of Covenant - in Old testament we see what inside the Ark of Covenant
old Testament New Testament (inside the womb of Mary)
a)Ten Commandment Christ as a perfect Law
b)Iron Rod symbol of High Priest Christ as a High Priest
c)Manna as a food Christ is the living bread-food of life

Again, Catholic will assert that Honor and Reverence is not a kind of Worship that is due only to God. Reading Salvation |History tell us that those title are kept and hold with respect not with worship.

MARY DESERVE HONOR AND REVERENCE."

First of all, this is not an argument. This is a sermon, or a lecture. An argument is when you take a thesis statement and attempt to convince your opponent of its validity by backing it up with evidence and logic.

There is neither evidence nor logic in what you just put. There was no argument. I don't wish to be converted, I wish to be convinced.

Secondly, you do not provide any sources. I doubt any of these are canonical and even if they are, a protestant would reject them because they are merely the opinions of the clergy based again on the Gospel of John (which I have already argued, is simply a work of art and not a word-for-word history book)

You have still not shown me why Mary should be revered beyond a doubt.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
Agent, you're citing your thesis. I was talking about your round 3 response where you cited all those titles.

If you want to talk about the debate in general, let me give you a "cliffs notes" explanation.

Knowing that your argument was based solely on scripture and nothing but, I decided to continuously attack the credibility of scripture. Basically, all the reasons why you believe Mary to deserve honor and reverence were located in very specific areas. Mainly the gospel of John. I knocked out your sources one by one, discrediting them all in general.

In my very first post, I made reference to the infancy narratives in Matthew and Luke and the fact that Mark, written in 69AD, preceded them and did not even mention it, and I likened it to a Star Wars prequel.

This invalidates Matthew and Luke.

I then went on to knock away John, I first attacked your point about it being eyewitness account. Then I dismantled your argument about it being historical with my evidence that it was more a biased work of art.

Your very last argument was citing a bunch of titles which you egregiously believe defends your point. However, there is no actual argument there, you're just citing all these titles given to Mary.

I tossed that aside because you didn't seem to grasp the fact that I lined up all your arguments like dominoes and kicked them over. Those titles are dependent on scripture, and I already robbed you of that.

Meaning, your argument doesn't have a leg left to stand on.

Do you understand now?
Posted by Mangani 9 years ago
Mangani
Agent, I don't think you understand your own religion. Your arguments have a lot of TWISTED interpretation and you are mentioning verses that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the arguments you ascribe them to.
Posted by Agent_D 9 years ago
Agent_D
No kleptin, The main core of the argument is that "Mary Deserves honor and reverence". Yes or No. if yes give a citation, then i proved it, you choose no you give a proof but unfortunately i debunked it as a whole, if you are asking for a burden of proof, it's not on my side it is all for you. You must defy all the title that i cited but you can't manage it. You never give any sound argument why mary doesnt deserved honor and reverence.
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
If you want a more thorough explanation, I'll give it.

My problem with your "titles" is that they have no citation. Your argument was essentially that Mary is "Mother of Church", "Queen Mother", "The New Eve" and "The New ark of the covenant".

You gave brief explanations of these titles, but did not cite any sources.

In describing the New Ark of the Covenant title, you listed a few bullet-points which resemble a syllabus of a theology class, disjointed topic sentences which have no meaning.

I'm sorry if you took my last post as an ad hominem attack, or a red herring cop-out but it wasn't. It was a critique of a rather poor ending argument. I can't respond to something that doesn't hold logical weight.

And please be reminded that you are the one making the positive statement and the burden of proof falls on you. Though you are obviously devout, you have not succeeded in establishing any sort of argument as to why Mary deserves reverence and honor.
Posted by Agent_D 9 years ago
Agent_D
lol. You're only making red herring and ad hominenom. Sorry, I thought you know the basic logic. Go and study hard. thanks. Admit it that you cannot debunked my preposition. "mary deserves honor and reverence" because of the evidence that i cited, and unfortunately you cannot defy it. thanks once again.
Posted by Agent_D 9 years ago
Agent_D
Thanks for your acceptance. I hope your a protestant.

Let me first clarify the word reverence with worship. I agree with you, worship is for God and Honor/reverence to Human. Catholic stands firmly with the following Points|:

a: It is forbidden to give divine honour / worship to the angels and saints(Like Virgin Mary) for this belongs to God alone.
b: We pay to the angels and saints an inferior honour, for this is due to them as the servants and special friends of God.

Those points that i've mentioned is another topic(another point to debate). but first let us determine why Mary Deserves honor and reverence.

Mary's role is so central to the story that it is foreshadowed in the past and continually active and celebrated in the present and future.

("WOMAN, behold your son!"—John 19:26-27).
Here we can see how much weight given by John(the beloved apostle) to Mary as the mother of Church. He recorded clearly the words of our God(Christ) to magnify that Mary is indeed has a pivotal role in our church. You might ask that how can you tell the Mary is the "WOMAN" mentioned by Christ during his cruxifiction?and how catholic relates Mary with only single word(WOMAN)into the entire book of Salvation?
First:
Old Testament: Gen.3:13-15 " I will put enmity between you(devil) and the WOMAN" correlated by john 19:26-27. Here John echoes the an important prophesy of the Old Testament.(First Prophesy Ever made). the woman prophetically foretold who would bear a child who would defeat the dreaded Dragon.
Book of Revelation: Rev. 12:1 the WOMAN with a crown of twelve stars.
Old and new testament correlate each how the Role of Mary was. The affirmation of Mary that gives her important role in salvation History of mankind not because Christ is her son.
Posted by Agent_D 9 years ago
Agent_D
for Protestant only. This proposition will defend by catholics who understand and know to answer why.
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