The Instigator
radz
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
icedragon66
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Mary Is Not Mother Of The Church

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
radz
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/17/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 514 times Debate No: 59079
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

radz

Pro

This debate challenge is strictly only for Roman Catholics who is knowledgeable with Roman Catholicism.

RULES

Only the Christian Bible will be used as the ultimate source. Other references are only for interpretation support of a cited scripture.

Round 1 Pro’s argument / Con’s rebuttal
Round 2 Pro’s rebuttal /Con’s argument
Round 3 Pro’s final rebuttal/ Con’s final rebuttal
Round 4 Con’s closing remarks / Pros’ closing remarks

NOTES

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Pro’s argument

Jesus never made Mary her physical mom to be the spiritual mom of the church in John 19:26-27.

Behold thy mother: What Does Jesus Mean By Such Utterance in John 19:26-27?

The teaching of the Roman Catholic church that Jesus entrusted his physical mother as the spiritual mother of the church is unfounded in these texts. In fact, that sort of interpretation is out of context.

Jesus entrusted his mother to the care of John (John 19:26,27).

Jesus did not entrust his mother to his siblings/ relatives because these were still unbelievers at that moment of Christ’s crucifixion (John 7:1-5).

Christians care for widows ( James 1:27).

Jesus considered not only his mother’s physical needs but also his spiritual needs when he entrusted his mother to the care of John.

Jesus did not give Mary to the church as its mother is evident in the other New Testament Scripture.

For Paul, the church/ Jerusalem is our mother:

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother (Galatians 4:26). But we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children. (1 Thessalonians 2:7).

For Paul, it is not Jesus’ mother who has been a mother to him:

Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too(Romans 16:13).

In fact, Jesus himself equates the spiritual mother-hood of Mary to all of them that obeys and observes God’s word and will:

"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother." (Mark 3:33-35)

While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (Luke 11:27,28)
icedragon66

Con

Firstly, thank you for beginning this debate on a topic that I am very passionate about

Before I begin my argument, I would like to rebut some of the statements made by PRO.
For simplicity, I shall call his arguments through the Bible chapters.

Firstly, having quotes from the Bible does not mean that they make any purposeful argument. These needed to be supported by context from the Bible as well as an explanation.

19:26-27 Although this is true, Mother Mary did in fact follow her son and supported her through acts of love and compassion.
In this passage, your statement is not true as Jesus is about to pass away and wants her to help his disciple. Just because he entrusts his mother to his disciple, does not alter the fact that he is still the son of the mother of the church.

"25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother"s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, "Woman,[b] here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home."

James 1:27 has no relevance to the debate at all as shown below;

" Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. "

When you say Paul does not recognise Mary as the mother, you may not know that in fact Paul is not the son of Mary. Through the eyes of the Church, Mary was chosen by God to conceive Jesus Christ- the creator of the Church- and therefore should be seen as the Mother of God and of the Church.

The other arguments you bring forward also address a lack of specified direction toward the actual debate that Mary is the Mother of the Church. Whilst what Jesus is saying is true, he does not specifically say that Mary was not his mother or not the mother of the church.

Now on to my arguments.
1)Mary was chosen to conceive Jesus
The very fact that Mary was chosen to conceive as a virgin is enough substantive evidence to convince most people that she should be the Mother of the Church through her actions of compassion. The way she accepted God's decision for her was a remarkable choice that neither you or I would probably take.

2)The Miracle at Cana
Jesus' first miracle is mostly accredited to Mary and her actions as a loving image in which Jesus was born.

3)Genesis 3:15- Mary crushes the head of Satan
This widely known story captures the essence of how Mother Mary can lead the Church by even crush the head of Satan which was foretold in Genesis.

Thank you again for this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
radz

Pro

19:26-27 Although this is true, Mother Mary did in fact follow her son and supported her through acts of love and compassion.
In this passage, your statement is not true as Jesus is about to pass away and wants her to help his disciple. Just because he entrusts his mother to his disciple, does not alter the fact that he is still the son of the mother of the church.

Jesus wants Mary to help his disciple, John. Where did you get this?


James 1:27 has no relevance to the debate at all as shown below;

" Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. "

Mary's a widow at the cross. This verse is surely relevant on the topic at hand.

When you say Paul does not recognise Mary as the mother, you may not know that in fact Paul is not the son of Mary.

Our subject matter is about the spiritual mother-hood of Mary and not Paul's physical relationship with Jesus' mother. Roman Catholicism teaches that Mary is the Mother of the entire Church.

Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too(Romans 16:13).

For Paul, it is not Jesus’ mother who has been a spiritual mother to him.

Through the eyes of the Church, Mary was chosen by God to conceive Jesus Christ- the creator of the Church- and therefore should be seen as the Mother of God and of the Church.

Why would Mary be the mother of the Church if she is the mother of Christ? What's the connection?

The other arguments you bring forward also address a lack of specified direction toward the actual debate that Mary is the Mother of the Church. Whilst what Jesus is saying is true, he does not specifically say that Mary was not his mother or not the mother of the church.

My opponent accuses me of bringing arguments that addresses a lack of specified direction toward the actual debate that Mary is the Mother of the Church. This simply is not true. Jesus himself equates the spiritual mother-hood of Mary to all of them that obeys and observes God’s word and will:


"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother." (Mark 3:33-35)

While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (Luke 11:27,28)

Now on to my arguments.
1)Mary was chosen to conceive Jesus
The very fact that Mary was chosen to conceive as a virgin is enough substantive evidence to convince most people that she should be the Mother of the Church through her actions of compassion. The way she accepted God's decision for her was a remarkable choice that neither you or I would probably take.

This is complete eisegesis. Mary is Jesus' physical mom. What is the connection of that in Mary being the spiritual mom of the church?


2)The Miracle at Cana
Jesus' first miracle is mostly accredited to Mary and her actions as a loving image in which Jesus was born.

I agree that Mary interceded at John 2:5 but that does not mean that she is automatically the mother of the church.


3)Genesis 3:15- Mary crushes the head of Satan
This widely known story captures the essence of how Mother Mary can lead the Church by even crush the head of Satan which was foretold in Genesis.

It's Jesus who will crush the head of the serpent not Mary based on both the Hebrew and Greek and the Neo-Vulgate of Genesis 3:15.
icedragon66

Con

icedragon66 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
radz

Pro

radz forfeited this round.
icedragon66

Con

icedragon66 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
radz

Pro

I extend my arguments.
icedragon66

Con

icedragon66 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
radz

Pro

radz forfeited this round.
icedragon66

Con

icedragon66 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by GoOrDin 3 years ago
GoOrDin
Marry is not the mother of the church. Marry is a chosen vessel to indicate God has no predecessor.
Posted by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
Radz, if you are looking to debate someone on this topic who won't forfeit any rounds, feel free to challenge me. I really enjoyed our last debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
radzicedragon66Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro ff fewer rounds.