The Instigator
Poltergeist
Con (against)
Winning
13 Points
The Contender
airmax1227
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points

(Mass Effect) Should the Quarians take back their home planet?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+4
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Poltergeist
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/24/2011 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,676 times Debate No: 18953
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (4)

 

Poltergeist

Con

This is an argument where I will prove that the Quarians do not deserve their homeworld, that the Geth unshackled themselves from their opressive masters and claimed the Quarian homeworld justly. For an organized argument I will split the whole of the argument into sections.

A. The Quarian's foolish mistake.
Regardless of the planet's ownership rights the Quarian's creating the Geth in the first place was a mistake both sides can agree on that.

B. Geth rights.
From my point of veiw since the Geth have a consiousness to speak of, a self awareness if you will, they deserve to be treated like equal class citizens.

C. Quarian rights.
Do not get me wrong, Quarians did get the short end of the stick, decreasing numbers, violent reactions to bacteria, and being treated with mistrust and malice by other races, doomed to never ammount to anything beyond a vagrant.

D. Reapers.
As Commander Shepherd stated in Mass Effect 2 the Quarians should forget about reclaiming their homeworld and try to combine their forces to take on the reapers.

E. Tali Zora vas Neema/Normandy
As a main character from both ME1 and 2 her opinion should be taken into consideration, first lets look at her character. She is a shy yet charizmatic crew member with a vast capacity for all things engineering. She is a prime example and insight to the inner workings of the Quarians and the migrant fleet.

F. Legion.
Another main character from ME2, a mobile Geth platform housing thousands of individual programs, making it complex enough to talk and reason. Legion is an insight to the inner workings of the Geth and can offer a machine's perspective on the Reaper threat.

G. Crime.
The crime in this case being the Quarians using the Geth for slave labor, eventually leading to their uprising, and the overall threat to the galaxy from the Reaper's corrupting the Heretics.

H. Punishment.
Have years of isolation and indignities suffered paid for their foolish mistake? I think it has not, for after listening to the admiralty board at Tali's trial it is clear to me that the Admirals still wish to wage war against the Geth causing casualties on both sides and ultimatly making things easier for the Reapers. Creating the Geth and forcing them to rebel was foolish enough but they still wish to continue their campaign to obliterate all Geth forces, trying to hide their humiliation with war.

Overall it is my opionion that not only should the Quarians abandon the war with the Geth and cut their losses, but that they do not even DESERVE their home planet. I anticipate a well thought out and logical debate.
airmax1227

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for this debate and say that I am looking forward to an interesting debate on whether or not the Quarians deserve to reclaim their home world.

My opponent's overall argument appears to be that the Quarians don't even deserve their home planet, while my argument will be, that not only do they deserve it and have a right to it, but that it is imperative that they reclaim it.
I'd like to thank my opponent for his well-organized opening arguments that I will address now:

A. The Quarian's foolish mistake.

"…creating the Geth in the first place was a mistake both sides can agree on that"

I disagree. While the outcome of creating advanced robotic machines may have been accidental, its consequences were as inevitable as they were practical. Giving these machines any level of self-awareness may not have been the wisest move, but intelligent beings will always take it the next level on a long enough time line.

The Geth rebellion is no different than a computer glitch on a universal scale. Given the Quarian's natural aptitude for electronics and engineering, it's appropriate that they would screw up to such a scale. [1]

B. Geth rights.

"the Geth have a consiousness to speak of, a self awareness if you will, they deserve to be treated like equal class citizens"

The Geth's self-awareness and intelligence is entirely a simulation. They are no more sentient than a super advanced calculator. They no longer function for the purpose they were created for and are a threat to all organic beings, thus they must be exterminated.

C. Quarian rights

"Quarians did get the short end of the stick"

The consequences of the Quarian's actions here go without saying. However, I'd hope that the Citadel Council would side with actual living beings, over artificial intelligence in any arguments of who has greater rights to anything. [2]

D. Reapers

"Shepherd stated in Mass Effect 2 the Quarians should forget about reclaiming their homeworld and try to combine their forces to take on the reapers."

My opponent is correct here. There is a much greater and more important threat at the moment than the Geth. The Reapers threaten to destroy all life and that certainly takes precedence.

The Geth however, have sided with the Reapers, displaying the kind of threat they are. When this situation is resolved, (as I assume it will be at the end of Mass effect 3) the Quarians should gain a coalition of the willing to take back their home world and destroy every last Geth in the galaxy. [3]

In the mean time, the Quarians should maintain moderate controlled strikes on the Geth while consolidating resources for a greater plan following whatever happens with the reapers.

E. Tali Zora vas Neema/Normandy

Tali is an interesting character and signifies much of the frailty and feeling of guilt of her culture. In many ways she shows how much it is necessary for them to return to their home world.

F. Legion

Legion gives a particular look into the minds of the Geth. In a way Legion even humanizes the ‘species' further by giving it a logical voice. Yet its cold and calculating demeanor resonates the very essence of why this group fails on the ‘humanity/alive' litmus test.

G. Crime

"…the Quarians using the Geth for slave labor"

The Geth are artificially intelligent robots. This can no more be considered slave labor, then ownership of a computer or a TV.

H. Punishment

"The Admirals still wish to wage war against the Geth causing casualties on both sides and ultimatly making things easier for the Reapers"

"they still wish to continue their campaign to obliterate all Geth forces, trying to hide their humiliation with war."
My opponent is ultimately correct in his characterization of the politics and cultural morass of the Quarian military and society.

My opponent is ultimately correct in his characterization of the politics and cultural morass of the Quarian military and society.

It is not however unfounded for them to feel this way, nor unproductive. The Geth are a threat in general, and now an even greater one since allying with the Reapers.

The only thing between that alliance and the civilized universe is a lot of military and Commander Shepard, it would not be wise for the Quarian generals to ease up on the Geth now.

"Overall it is my opionion that not only should the Quarians abandon the war with the Geth and cut their losses, but that they do not even DESERVE their home planet. I anticipate a well thought out and logical debate."

My opponent argues that the Quarians should not reclaim their home world, and in fact, do not deserve it, based on two major points:

A) Unnecessary Military investment
B) Geth rights

A) While the military investment may not be prudent at the moment due to the Reaper threat, the Quarians are well within their rights to do so. It should be their sole quest in general as nothing could be more important for the survival of their species in the long run.

Granted, they should look at the larger threat looming, but any other group asking them to give up their right to reclaim their home world from a threat they created, is guilty of violating ‘rights' far greater than killing a few thousand Geth.

B) Advocating ‘rights' for Geth is no different than advocating it for a super advanced computer program. It seems that there is sympathy for the ‘species' in the Mass Effect universe, and indeed, in our own universe.

Various media have touched upon this topic to various degrees of success. The central theme generally being "The perception of humanity", and what we as ‘humans' or intelligent beings, ascribe as value to this perception and our perception of it.

The universe in which the Geth live seems to ascribe some sense of ‘being' to them. But the Quarians would just as well
dehumanize them to destroy them, and would they be wrong in doing so?

Not only do they present a credible threat to all ‘living' things, but the Geth's existence should hold no moral or logical reasoning for survival, other than their ‘perception of humanity".

This perception leads humankind to act in what's perceived as a human manner, and that is to ‘feel' something towards that which they sense as being intelligent. This is largely the focus, of works such as the movie A.I., or the TV series Battlestar Gallactica, in which the greatest schism seems to come from the human emotional reaction to that which we perceive as ‘alive'. [4]

This emotional reaction is purely unique from that of the Geth, as it characterizes the greatest flaw of ‘life' in this instance. This emotional reaction comes with a great consequence:

By trusting in the ‘humanization' of the ‘simulated life', rather than the logical assessment of artificiality, genuine life is threatened.

There should be no doubt then that the Quarians deserve the planet they have been driven from and have a 'right' and a 'responsibility' to reclaim their home world while destroy every last Geth in the universe.

I would like to thank my opponent and look forward to his reply.

[1] http://masseffect.wikia.com...
[2] http://masseffect.wikia.com...
[3] http://masseffect.wikia.com...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Poltergeist

Con

Poltergeist forfeited this round.
airmax1227

Pro

Since my opponent was unable to post his 2nd round, I extend my arguments so that he may respond in round 3. I wish my opponent good luck, and look forward to seeing his response.
Debate Round No. 2
Poltergeist

Con

I would like to thank the audience's and pro's understanding as to why I did not post a second argument (Internet was out). In the final round I will show that if a being has reached sentience it has a right to live.

A. The Quarian's foolish mistake

To clarify Geth only obtain complexity when linked together, with the exception of mobile platforms like Legion that can house thousands of Geth on a single platform. The Quarians did not give them self awareness, they developed it themselves. The result of the Geth revolution was not the result of a glitch as my opponent has said but in fact a response to Quarian fear. As Legion stated, when the Quarian masters believed victory to be possible they have attacked 100% of the time, the Geth were only defending themselves to prolong their existance.

B. Geth Rights

As I had just stated the sentience of the Geth is not a simulation, nor is their intelligence, by looking at Legion we can see that Geth can actually feel remorse and attatchment, somthing that similar machines can't do. As for the threat to all organic beings, this is only partially true. As Legion explained there were two factions of the Geth, the true Geth and the Heretics. Soveriegn aka Nazara promised the Geth a shortcut to their ultimate goal, a platform capable of housing every Geth, in short a Reaper shell that can house every Geth program. This caused the faction of the Heritics to split from the main Geth and worship the Reapers. Heritics wanted the Reapers to build their future, Geth want to build their own future, the only threat to the Galaxy was the Heritics, that is until Legion and Shepard infiltrated the Heretic base and either blew it up or rewrote the Heritic's runtime to think like the rest of the Geth. Either way the Heritic threat would be no more.

C. Quarian rights

The Citadel in general treats the Quarians like vagrant scavengers and second class citizens, they would most likely not relinquish any resources to aid the Quarian cause. The Quarians can still have their home planet if they are willing to swallow their pride and co-exist with the Geth as they once did.

D. Reapers

Once again it is only the Heritic faction that has sided with the Reapers, the rest of the Geth oppose and despise the Reapers. The "moderate controlled strikes" my opponent mentioned is a flaw in itself mainly because Geth have numbers that can grow exponentially at will, all that are needed are the right parts, while Quarians have a crippling population shortage and are on the verge of becoming extinct. Instead of wiping the Quarians out, they should try to join forces with the Geth to stop the Reaper threat.

E. Tali Zora vas Neema/Normandy

We could definitely learn a lot from Tali and she is a credit to her race. During a confrontation between her and Legion Tali compromised with the lifeform and gave declassified data about the flotilla. The rest of the Quarians should follow suit and try to reach a comprimise with the Geth, frankly the Geth are just as afraid of the Quarians as the Quarians are of the Geth.

F. Legion

If over a thousand Geth can devote themselves to Shepard's cause then why not the entire Geth army? As I mentioned earlier Legion shows that he can feel remorse and have attatchment, I will now elaborate. On his chest Legion wears a plate of N7 armor, that once belonged to Commander Shepard, Lieutenant Jacob Tailor on the Normandy said that it was probably a conveniant feild repair from a rifle shot that Legion suffered on Eden Prime after the Heretic attack, but it was not true as Legion went to Vermire, Ilos, and other planets without finding Shepard or repairing itself, after it found the spot where Shepard had died he patched the hole with Shepard's N7 armor as a form of attatchment. As for the remorse, when infiltrating the Heritic base and Legion looked through the Heretic runtimes he found several spy programs imbedded in the rest of the Geth, meaning that they no longer trusted each other, he then felt remorse for the change after the separation and blamed himself.

G. Crime

If Geth are nothing more than machines to exploit then why is it considered a war crime to test weapons and hacking devices on rebuilt Geth platforms? A case example the Admiralty Board Vs Tali Zora vas Normandy.

H. Punishment

Naturally I disagree with my opponent's stance on the Quarian generals to lay into the Geth. It is only a distraction that will get both sides slaughtered when the Reapers arrive.

Lastly I believe if the Quarians do not try diplomacy and comprimise then no they do not deserve the home that they lost to their own creations.

I would refute the last few points in my opponent's argument if I had not already covered that in my post. I will say that the comparison of Geth to Silons from Battlestar Galactica (Which I find extremely conicidental seeing as Seth Green is both an actor on the show and a voice actor in Mass effect) totally inaccurate, they would probably be more closely related to droids from Star Wars.

As a final statement I say that the Quarians and the Geth should set aside their dispute and work together to defeat the real threat of the Reapers if the Galaxy is to survive. The Quarians could try to take back their homeworld, and if by a slim chance were able to succeed have it all taken away from them when the Reapers wipe them out. I thank my opponent for a stimulating debate and thank you all for listening in.
airmax1227

Pro

My opponent has so thoroughly destroyed the entirety of my argument, that I feel it would not be worth wasting the reader's time as I nitpick one or two parts of my opponent's rebuttal. Therefore I would like to congratulate my opponent and insist upon a con vote.

I would like to thank my opponent for this debate and wish him well in all of his future endeavors.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Poltergeist 5 years ago
Poltergeist
I appologize for not commenting my internet was down for a few days if it comes down to it I can always restart the debate. I shouldn't need to though seeing as I now have running internet again.
Posted by Rusty 5 years ago
Rusty
@Crede, I've only finished 1 but it was really good. The closest game I could compare it to would probably be Knights of the Old Republic if you've ever played that, except a lot better. It has an amazing storyline and interesting universe (I usually find Sci-Fi universes to be pretty lame) plus there are a good number of choices scattered through the game, some of them being pretty substantial.

(Sorry for the semi off-topic spam, Poltergeist =P)
Posted by waylon.fairbanks 5 years ago
waylon.fairbanks
Huh?
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
It is an awesome game. Sorry, I'm pretty bogged down with real life stuff right now and I'm already in a debate. I might take it if no-one has by tomorrow.
Posted by Crede 6 years ago
Crede
Is that a good game..I'm assuming it is by the reviews.
Posted by Poltergeist 6 years ago
Poltergeist
Yeah probably, I just like to argue, I toned it down to 3 rounds if you want to grab the slot
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
Awesome subject. Five rounds might be a bit much though.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by 000ike 5 years ago
000ike
Poltergeistairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: counter votebomb
Vote Placed by bozotheclown 5 years ago
bozotheclown
Poltergeistairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: There really isnt any moral reason to believe they shouldn't.
Vote Placed by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 5 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Poltergeistairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession, and Pro asked to vote Con.
Vote Placed by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
Poltergeistairmax1227Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro told me to vote for con.... who am i to argue?