The Instigator
left_wing_mormon
Con (against)
Winning
45 Points
The Contender
LR4N6FTW4EVA
Pro (for)
Losing
39 Points

McCain will be a better presidant than Obama

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/13/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,525 times Debate No: 4019
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (24)

 

left_wing_mormon

Con

I will allow my opponet to start this debate. This was origanilly his/hers so I will allow the opening for Pro.
Good Luck.
LR4N6FTW4EVA

Pro

1. McCain has the know-how.
McCain has spent 24 years as an elected official. He knows the ins and outs of Washington DC. When Congress and the President disagree, they are forced to make a deal. McCain has friends and experience that he can use to help make the deal better for his side, rather than Congress's side. Obama on the other hand is new to Washington. He right now does not have the know how to work the system. Although he is very smart, when it comes to working the District he is fairly ignorant, as he only has 4 years of Washington experience.

2. McCain has connections.
As I said earlier, McCain has many friends in Washington, on both sides of the aisle. Proposing legislation takes many connections, or else the proposal will fail. Obama, as he is so new has not established these connections. Without these connections, no matter how good or bad his healthcare plan is, it won't get enacted.

3. McCain can handle the stress better.
McCain has a sixteen year old daughter, that is his only child living at home. Obama has to raise two young girls. McCain's daughter will be off to college soon, while Obama will be dealing with his daughters for the rest of his presidency. This, although not an amazingly limiting factor is one of many that will hurt Obama.

4. Deval Patrick is an indicator of an Obama presidency.
Deval Patrick, the Democratic governor of Massachusetts, ran a similar campaign as Obama, and they both share many of the same views. Patrick is also a quickly rising star, but his lack of experience made him an ineffective governor. He did not have the Beacon Hill connections to get important things done, although he tried. As he and Obama are very similar, we can expect a similar outcome.
Debate Round No. 1
left_wing_mormon

Con

Thank You for accepting

1. McCain has the know-how
Maybe so. He knows how to flip-flop on different issues such as gay marraige, immigration, and the confederate flag business. Or maybe he has the know-hows when it comes to being against torture when it comes to him, but a couple of people in Gitmo, and even the events of Abu Gharib, then he sudden;y has different feelings. One thing that McCain has that Obama doesn't have is inconsitency. Obama has veiws that don't sound very popular to the Washington insiders like McCain and Clinton, but his voting record and his work even before the Senate, Obama shows the same determination to help people around him, and abroad.

2. McCain has connections.
I am willingly to agree. He has many connections: cCain has 59 lobbyists raising money for his campaign, more than any of the other presidential candidates, according to the latest finding from government watchdog group Public Citizen. The group, which advocates for public financing of elections, has identified more than 2,300 well-connected individuals, known as "bundlers," who have solicited contributions from friends and associates on behalf of a presidential candidate. (http://abcnews.go.com...)
Another one of his friends that McCain says "is a great pleasure to have on this campaign". Obama has passed several bills while in the Senate to lower the influence of Lobbyist. I know Obama has coorprate donors to his campaign too, but Obama raised more money from the public during his campaign than anyother canidate on the ticket, but McCain has gotten the most money from special intrest groups than Obama.

I'm sorry I have to cut this short but I'm in school right now and the bell is about to ring, so I will respond to the next two points next round.
LR4N6FTW4EVA

Pro

All right, I'll go line by line.

McCain has the Know-how: You say he flip-flops on gay marriage, the Confederate flag, immigration, and torture. I will show you, a) why that is false and b) why it wouldn't really matter.

a) Gay marriage: McCain has never supported gay marriage. While I may disagree with this view, that is irrelevant. If you mean his vote against the Constitutional ban, he did that in order to let states decide.

Confederate Flag: In 2000 he made a mistake in saying it should be allowed on top of the capital building. In a current debate he contradicted this, saying he made a mistake, it shouldn't be on top. The flag is only a campaign "issue" in SC, it has no bearing on whether McCain flip-flops.

Immigration: On February 7 2008 he said this in a speech to the Conservative Action Conference: "On the issue of illegal immigration, a position which provoked the outspoken opposition of many conservatives, I stood my ground aware that my position would imperil my campaign. I respect your opposition for I know that the vast majority of critics to the bill based their opposition in a principled defense of the rule of law. And while I and other Republican supporters of the bill were genuine in our intention to restore control of our borders, we failed, for various and understandable reasons, to convince Americans that we were. I accept that, and have pledged that it would be among my highest priorities to secure our borders first, and only after we achieved widespread consensus that our borders are secure, would we address other aspects of the problem in a way that defends the rule of law and does not encourage another wave of illegal immigration."

That isn't flip-flopping, that is just saying that he won't try this again until a border wall goes up. He is not saying he feels it needs to go up for successful immigration policy, but that he feels that his bill won't pass unless this happens. That is simply recognition of a political truth.

Torture he has never ever, ever supported. He has always been against torture, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, etc. I found no credible evidence to the contrary.

b) It doesn't effect his ability to be a good president if he flip-flops anyways. A candidate's stance on an issue is not going to make or break their presidency, it is their actions with the issue. I could have all the right
policy ideas, yet I could still be a horrible president, as I have no political experience, this probably is true.

McCain has connections: Okay, he has lobbyists as friends. If you spend 24 years in Washington, you'll get to know them. Just because they're lobbyists does not mean they can't be nice friendly people. Friends watch out for each other. It happens, it's not like it will effect his presidency. There is little evidence that they have more of an impact on him than on any other politician. He has tried to limit lobbyists too. McCain-Feingold anyone? Also, he has voted with Obama on many of the lobbyist-killing bills.

I happily await my opponent's response.

Vote PRO
Debate Round No. 2
left_wing_mormon

Con

"It doesn't effect his ability to be a good president if he flip-flops anyways. A candidate's stance on an issue is not going to make or break their presidency, it is their actions with the issue."
Well, ok then.

Anyway, on the issue of lobbyists. Your veiw is "McCain will be a better presidant than Obama". Well, in the lobbyist issue regarding McCain, who do you think he is really working for? The voters or the 59 lobbyists. Man, this reminds me of a quote from McCains own website: "The American people have been alienated from the process of self-government by the overwhelming appearance of their elected leaders having sold-out to the big-moneyed special interests who help finance political campaigns." (http://www.johnmccain.com...)

So on to the other claims

3. McCain can handle the stress better.
McCain has post traumatic stress disorder.(http://buelahman.wordpress.com...) But anyway lets see just how well McCain handles stress. Everyone knows how bad Mavericks ol' temeper is. He has a reputation for being hotheaded. To quote his verbal stress levels: "F--- you," he shouted at Texas Sen. John Cornyn last year. "Only an a------ would put together a budget like this," he told the former Budget Committee chairman, Sen. Pete Domenici, in 1999. "I'm calling you a f------ jerk!" he once retorted to Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley.(http://abcnews.go.com...)

Wow, nothing says stress free quite like calling someone an a------ or a f------ jerk.

4. Deval Patrick is an indicator of an Obama presidency.
Now this is funny, because McCains rehtoric during this campaign has been repeating basically everything Bush has done the past 8 years. So McCain is advertising the same Bush polocies with limited reforms. I know some people agree with the Iraq war, but I know 4,070+ familes who might disagree with McCains stance on the Bush War. So #4 should say "McCain will be a better President because he resembles another 4-8 years of George W. Bush and other failed polocies!"

So, Would Obama be a better president? I say so. Obama doesn't have the same amount of cooprate influence as McCain. Obama spent his whole carreer even before the Senate working to help the everyday citizen. McCain supported the Bush tax cuts, which cut 107 billion dollars for the high class citizens, ofcourse right after voting for a 87 billion dollar funding for the Iraq War. While Obama represents and preaches the sort of unification this country needs, McCain Voted Against Creating Martin Luther King Holiday & McCain Consistently Voted Against The Civil Rights Act Of 1990.

McCain's Plan: Tax Cuts To For Businesses. According to the Associated Press, John McCain proposed a long-term economic plan that would lower the corporate income tax rate and provide several other tax breaks for businesses. McCain proposed cutting the corporate tax rate to 25 percent from 35 percent. McCain said that his plan was "pro growth, less taxes and less spending" versus "the Democrats' tired ideas of tax and spend." [Associated Press, 1/17/08]AND ALSO McCain Repeatedly Voted Against Raising The Minimum Wage. In the senate, John McCain voted at least eight times against measure to increase the minimum wage. [HR 2, Vote #23, 1/24/07; S.Amdt. 44 to S. 256, Vote #26, 3/07/05; S.Amdt. 128 to S. 256, Vote #27, 3/07/05; S.Amdt. 3079 to S.Amdt. 2951 to S.Con.Res. 101, Vote #76, 4/07/00; S.Amdt. 1383 to S. 1429, Vote #239, 7/30/99; S. 96, Vote #94, 4/28/99; S .Amdt. 3540 to S.Amdt. 3559 to S. 1301, Vote S.Amdt. 4272 to H.R. 3448, Vote #183, 7/06/96] (http://www.colorofchange.org...)

Obama's Plan: Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans. Raise the Minimum Wage: Barack Obama will raise the minimum wage, index it to inflation and increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to make sure that full-time workers earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs.

I want everyone to notice the diffence in even the simplest detail. Who supports Obama. This support also donates the most to his campaign! It's the people. Now, who donates the most to McCains? Coorprate America. Not the people. McCain serves the rich and powerful Washington insiders, Obama works for the people, and has the track-record to proove it.

A vote for me in this debate is not a vote for left_wing_mormon, but rather a vote that says the one who is running for president who wants to help me and my working class friends and familiy is the better contender.

Thank you for reading, and thanks for the debate.
LR4N6FTW4EVA

Pro

First, I'll go through my case and then hit his.

My Case:

McCain has the know-how: All my opponent says is that McCain can flip-flop. In R3 he concedes the flip-flop argument, and that leaves him with no argument against this point. Already we see that McCain has an advantage.

McCain has connections: My opponent points out that McCain is close to lobbyists, and I argue in R2 that this does not mean he is in their pocket. As the quote he mentioned from McCain's website says, he does not like listening to lobbying. As I said earlier, if you spend 24 years being lobbied, you get to know them as people. I don't see how this affects his presidency. My opponent only provides speculation against this point. I win this point, showing that McCain is well connected, while Obama is not.

McCain can handle the stress better: Alright, first my opponent brings up PTSD, which he claims that John McCain suffers. The evidence he brings up is from a blog, which never explicitly states that McCain has PTSD, or evidence that it is affecting him. Also, using obscene language is not always an indicator of stress. All this shows is that McCain feels passionately about these issues, when others don't respect these issues, he gets a little angry.

Deval Patrick is an indicator of an Obama presidency: All my opponent says against this is that McCain is like Bush. If I show that McCain is not a Bush, I win this point then. SO here's what I got.

Torture: McCain is against torture, Bush is for it

Iraq: Bush severely underestimated many factors, McCain disagreed with Bush's strategy from the start.

Fiscal Measures: Bush is for deficit spending, McCain is not.

Iraq and fiscal policy especially have been major catastrophes of the Bush era. McCain had a better plan on both issues, it is clear that he will be different.

My Opponent's case: He says that McCain only supports big business, and that Obama is a man of the people. Okay, we have to look at this objectively. McCain has shown that he is not in corporate America's pocket. The McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform was opposed by big business, but McCain held fast to his belief. Also, McCain wants to help everybody, not just the little guy. He supports all around tax cuts, the abolition of the AMT, as well as measures to reduce gas prices. He, unlike Obama also recognizes that we must help business as well so that there are jobs for the people to have. Creating jobs will be the most effective way to eliminate poverty.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by SoutherngentFL 8 years ago
SoutherngentFL
I voted Pro. McCains plans are validated by his track record.
Posted by qwarkinator 8 years ago
qwarkinator
What about the issues!!!!!!! I do not care if McCain has been in office for the last 50 years if he supports a bad policy he should not be in office. Hitler was a great leader and had experience that hardly means i should support the holocaust.
Posted by Rob1Billion 9 years ago
Rob1Billion
I have a small feeling in my gut that you actually have a point, but the fact of the matter is that the last eight years of GWB has upset most of us to the point that I doubt J mac is going to win. I want to see a democrat in the white house who will end this silly war and get rid of our deficit
Posted by LR4N6FTW4EVA 9 years ago
LR4N6FTW4EVA
I may not love McCain, but I think he goes well beyond all of his competition. The lesser of three evils will win.
Posted by Rob1Billion 9 years ago
Rob1Billion
points taken, LR4. I guess the big issue with me is the war, which I am firmly against
Posted by attrition 9 years ago
attrition
LR4N6FTW4EVA, I read another debate you had with an Obama supporter, to which I belong. I voted for you in that one because the Pro not only forfeited a round, his argument wasn't as good. Like I said in that comment, I actually didn't hate McCain for the longest time and thought it would have been Cool if he joined Kerry as his running mate. Yea, right. But McCain has some serious problems with the far-right wing base of his party. So John McCain has been sucking up to them and to Bush himself. Towing that party line of scaring us poor dumb Americans into thinking that if we vote for a Democrat...we are going to self destruct. Sad. But of course if he didn't do that, he would never have been the Republican nominee
Posted by LR4N6FTW4EVA 9 years ago
LR4N6FTW4EVA
Responding to lwm: I didn't see any ad.

Responding to r1b: J-Mac is not a neocon. He is not in the pocket of the religous right or any of those guys. Marijuana criminalization was dumb, but it's one issue.
Posted by Rob1Billion 9 years ago
Rob1Billion
I don't think the American People can take another Republican President. The neoconservatives are driving up the deficit, destroying the environmental movement, and creating wars throughout the world that are destroying our reputation and causing widespread anti-Americanism all over the place. I am personally sick of their blatant disregard for the establishment clause. Religion should not tied to politics in any way whatsoever. Yet the entire essence of the pro-life movement is religious in nature, and don't even get me started about Bush going out in front of the American people and telling them he is going to pray for them... This is completely unprofessional, not to mention unconstitutional. Some of us, including myself, do not pray and don't appreciate our leader exercising religion in front of the TV cameras as though it is what OUGHT to be done... McCain is also a staunch supporter of the criminalization of marijuana, and stands on his "gateway" drug argument. Prosecuting marijuana users as criminals is possibly the most imbesilic use of legislation that possibly exists...
Posted by left_wing_mormon 9 years ago
left_wing_mormon
you know, I like the fact that your sources below have a huge John McCain advertisment on the top of the page...You can bet that those sites aren't biased...
Posted by LR4N6FTW4EVA 9 years ago
LR4N6FTW4EVA
Sources:
http://www.ontheissues.org...
http://www.ontheissues.org...
If something is unsourced, it came from my memory, but it should be backed up by fact. You can check me if I'm wrong.
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