The Instigator
Stupidape
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
KatDoesGoPro
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Meat, dairy, and eggs should be banned worldwide.

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Post Voting Period
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after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/23/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 218 times Debate No: 82949
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (0)

 

Stupidape

Pro

Pro tries to maximize the happiness of everyone under the philosophy of utilitarianism. Everyone includes all humans and all sentient animals. Pro contends that banning meat, eggs, and dairy foods would make both humans and animals happier.

http://psychology.wikia.com...
KatDoesGoPro

Con

Meat-

Banning meat will result in the fact that people will end up not getting enough proteins, and because of this, our cells wouldn't be able to repair themselves, and we wouldn't be able to grow.

Eggs-

Same as meat ^^^

Dairy Food-

Banning dairy foods will result in the fact that people will have weak bones and teeth.

In conclusion to my first argument, I highly doubt that humans not being able to heal from injuries, grow, and gain strong bones/teeth will result in us being "happy".
Debate Round No. 1
Stupidape

Pro

"Meat-

Banning meat will result in the fact that people will end up not getting enough proteins, and because of this, our cells wouldn't be able to repair themselves, and we wouldn't be able to grow" Con

There is logic to this statement. If protein deficient then adverse health affects will result. Yet, Con fails to prove how much proteins humans need. Next, Con assumes that a vegan diet will result in protein deficiency.

Pro will now prove how much protein humans need and prove that a vegan diet could have enough protein.

Claim 1: Humans need about 10% calories from protein.

Warrant 1:" If we do a few calculations we see that the protein recommendation for vegans amounts to close to 10% of calories coming from protein." [2].

Impact 1: A vegan diet is capable of supplying enough protein. On a vegan, vegetarian, or omnivore its possible to be protein deficient, just as its possible on the same diets to be nutritionally balanced. Vegans are more likely to be protein deficient but this is only due to ignorance. A few naive vegans should not ruin an entire lifestyle for millions of people.

Claim 2: Million of people are vegan.

Warrant 2: "About 2% to 3% of the population in the world is vegan. Since there are around 6.7 billion people in the world, this means there are approximately 168 million vegans." [3].

"In 2009, the world population was 6.787 billion, meaning there were approximately 407,200,000 vegans in the world." [4].

Impact 2: If nutritional deficiency was such a problem, there wouldn't be millions of vegans in the world.

Claim 3: There are many vegan celebrities.

Warrant 3: [5] and "Al Gore goes vegan, with little fanfare" [6].

Impact 3: Celebrities by their very nature must be good looking and healthy. If nutritional deficiency were such a problem these celebrities wouldn't be vegan.

Claim 4: At least one vegan food contains 10% or more calories from protein.
Warrant 4: Soy milk contains 24% protein [7].
Impact 4: Further proves vegans can receive enough protein.

The negative impact on health of over nutrition of fat, saturated fats, and cholesterol are well known, thus animal products are unhealthy. Not well known is that animal protein increases IGF-1, insulin like growth factor one, production via the liver. Elevated serum IGF-1 levels increase risk for cancer. [8]. Therefore, consuming animal proteins increases risk for cancer.

Claim 5: Animal products take at least twice as much grain per pound as opposed to straight grain.
Warrant 5: "Meat is less efficient because we eat the animal that eats the grain instead of eating the grain ourselves." [9].
Impact 5: Meat is less efficient thus causing excess environmental damage and world hunger. Vegan diets can help mitigate both world hunger and environmental harm.

Summary

In summary Pro has forcefully disproved Con's notion. In the same round Pro has shown the benefits of a vegan diet while condemning the consumption of animal products with proof. Vote Pro.

Links
2. http://www.vrg.org...
3. http://www.answers.com...
4. http://www.numberof.net...
5. http://abcnews.go.com...
6. https://www.washingtonpost.com...
7. http://nutritiondata.self.com...
8. http://nutritionfacts.org...
9. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com...
KatDoesGoPro

Con

Vegans are deficient in many important nutrients, including Vitamin B12 and Creatine. Studies show that vegans have much lower testosterone levels than their meat-eating counterparts.

Despite all the propaganda, there isn"t any evidence that vegan diets are any better than other diets. Most of the studies are observational in nature.

Vegan proponents often use fear mongering and scare tactics in order to convince people not to eat animal foods. They frequently cite The China Study as evidence, which has been thoroughly debunked.

Vegan diets also recommend that people shun added sugar, refined carbohydrates, vegetable oils and trans fats. This is probably the reason for any health benefits, not the removal of unprocessed animal foods.

http://empoweredsustenance.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Stupidape

Pro

Intro

Con has dropped many of Pro's statements. Instead mentioning new possible nutritional deficiencies and calls propaganda "Despite all the propaganda, there isn't any evidence that vegan diets are any better than other diets. Most of the studies are observational in nature." Con

Con, also fails to refute Pro's evidence of vegan celebrities and millions of vegans living in the world. Clearly, nutritional decencies concerns over a vegan diet are unwarranted.

Now to refute Con line by line.

"Vegans are deficient in many important nutrients, including Vitamin B12 and Creatine." Con

Pro has heard of B12 deficiency, yet Creatine is new.

Claim 1: B12 is obtained from bacteria.
Warrant 1: "Even though most lactic acid bacteria (LAB) are auxotrophic for several vitamins, it is now known that certain strains have the capability to synthesize water-soluble vitamins such as those included in the B-group (folates, riboflavin and vitamin B(12) amongst others). " [10].
Impact 1: Since bacteria is synthesized from bacteria and not animals, this weakens Cons claim.

Claim 2: B12 can be gained from supplements.
Warrant 2: "Vitamin B12 supplements" [11].
Impact 2: It is possible to be vegan and meet your b-12 requirement.

Just because there are naive vegans who think b-12 isn't important, doesn't mean all vegans are b-12 deficient or ignorant. Onto Creatine.

Claim 3: Creatine supplements exist.
Warrant: "vegetarians creatine supplements" [12].
Impact: Vegans can use these supplements to avoid deficiency.

Claim 4: The human body can synthesize Creatine
Warrant: " It is not an essential amino acid, as we can synthesize is from other amino acids found also in plant foods" [12],
Impact: This weakens Con claim about vegans and Creatine deficiency.

"Studies show that vegans have much lower testosterone levels than their meat-eating counterparts." Con

Considering that many vegans are female, this is good. For males, its possible to have excess testosterone, usually seen in athletes who take steroids.

Claim 5: Excess testosterone is detrimental to health for men.
Warrant: "Examples of drawbacks or disadvantages of men having higher than average testosterone levels include:

Men tend to consume more alcoholic beverages.
Men are more likely to smoke.
Men are more likely to get injured.
According to some researchers, the higher the testosterone level, the more likely men are to participate in risk-taking behavior (sexual, injury risk, and even criminal activity).
" [13].
Impact: Lowering testosterone in men via vegan diet is good instead of bad.

Claim: Excess testosterone is adverse to good health in women.
Warrant: "Other possible effects include acne, an enlarged clitoris, increased muscle mass, and deepening of voice.

High levels of testosterone can also lead to infertility" [14].
Impact: Lowering testosterone levels in women with a vegan diet is good for health.

"Despite all the propaganda, there isn"t any evidence that vegan diets are any better than other diets. Most of the studies are observational in nature." Con

Con uses a provocative term propaganda. Anecdotal evidence is evidence nevertheless and can be found all over the net. [15]. As for scienfic evidence there is plenty. "Those who ate a vegetarian diet had a 22% lower risk of colorectal cancer than those who weren"t vegetarians." [16]. "Cytotoxic activity, which is expressed as lytic units, was significantly higher in vegetarians than in their omnivorous controls by a factor of 2. " [17].

Most of the studies are observational in nature? Con stated there was no evidence and then contradicts himself or herself with this statement. Con knows about the observational scienfic evidence yet states there is no evidence. Most diet studies tend to be observational in nature. Since studies on vegan diets are a subset of the set diet studies, it only makes sense that most vegan diet studies are observational in nature.

For scienfic evidence, a person only has to look at the fiber, antioxidants, phytonutrients, vitamins, and minerals in plant foods to realize they are healthy. Also it is common knowledge that fruits and vegetables are healthy. Next, meat has no fiber, lacks antioxidants for the most the part, and no phytonutrients. Finally, meat contains too much fat, saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein which Pro has explained in the previous round.

"Vegan proponents often use fear mongering and scare tactics in order to convince people not to eat animal foods." Con

Con continues to use proactive language, fear mongering and scare tactics. At the same time Con uses the same tactics to convince people that they will have a nutrient deficiency of protein, b-12, and Creatine. That's hypocritical of Con. Pro has proven that through diet and supplements a vegan can meet his or her nutritional needs.

"The China Study as evidence, which has been thoroughly debunked." Con

What's debunked really mean? Definition of debunked "To cause to be no longer believed or valued:" [18].

By this definition Con is correct. Yet, by this definition it doesn't mean the China study is false. Pro contends that the China Study has been a victim of a smear campaign and thus debunked, yet the China study is true. Most people think of Denise Minger's criticism.

Minger's criticism has been thoroughly criticized. Just for starters she is suspiciously young to understand advanced epidemiological studies. Minger confirms this suspicion by making mistakes. Here is several criticisms of Minger's work. [19][20].

If Con has a specific debunk of the China study Con must link to the criticism rather than the bare assertion, the China Study has been debunked, implying the China Study is false, when in reality it is true.

"Vegan diets also recommend that people shun added sugar, refined carbohydrates, vegetable oils and trans fats. This is probably the reason for any health benefits, not the removal of unprocessed animal foods." Con

Paleo also known as low carb diets make the same claims. Not all vegan diets recommend shun the listed foods.

All that is left is Con's link. Note Con used no quotes.

Pro will now refute the article in Con's link.

"Perhaps the most striking commonality is an unerring reverence for animal foods. No traditional culture subsisted on a vegan diet, a fact that Dr. Price found particularly interesting." [21].

The status quo is not self justifying. These cultures most likely evolved around eating some meat, because eating meat is better than starvation.

"T. Campbell, the author, notoriously cherry-picked data to arrive at a specific conclusion." [21].

Bare assertion. The author of link [21] never specifies why this data is cherry picked.

"Denise Minger, author of Death by Food Pyramid, published a scathing critique of Cambell"s work in her article, The China Study: Fact or Fiction." [21].

Minger's so called debunk has been criticized heavily. See links [20] and [21].

"2. Vegan diets do not provide fat-soluble vitamins A and D" [21].

Vitamin D can be gained from sunlight. [22]. As for vitamin A this is just bizarre. There doesn't seem to be any case of vitamin A deficiency in vegans.

"3. Vegan diets often rely heavily on soy" [21].

There are many alternatives to soy. Just because they are vegans who perform reckless actions, doesn't mean all vegans are this way.

"5. Ethical omnivorism supports a healthy planet" [21]

See slaughtering the amazon to see just how ethical these omnivore diets are. Free-range cattle take lots of acreage. [23].

"Many people choose veganism because they think it cruel to take a life, but something dies no matter what you eat. For example, field mice were demolished in order to grow the corn for a box of vegan cereal." [21].

This is true, but less animals die on a vegan diet. [24]. From the chart a person can see that eating chicken causes the most amount of animal deaths, 251.1 per million calories and grains cause the least 1.65 per million calories.

Pro is out of characters to fully refute Con's sole link. Thanks for the debate.

Summary

Links.
10. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
11. http://www.mayoclinic.org...
12. https://www.psychologytoday.com...
13. http://www.medicinenet.com...
14. http://www.webmd.com...
15. http://www.30bananasaday.com...
16. http://www.health.harvard.edu...
17. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
18. http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
19. http://www.vegsource.com...
20. http://healthylongevity.blogspot.com...
21. http://empoweredsustenance.com...
22. http://health.usnews.com...
23. http://www.greenpeace.org...
24. http://www.animalvisuals.org...
KatDoesGoPro

Con

Vitamin B12 is critical for the health of the brain and nervous system and is primarily found in animal foods. A deficiency can cause all sorts of adverse effects on brain function. [1]

Creatine is an important nutrient in muscle and brain that helps to supply energy. Studies show that vegetarians have a deficiency in creatine that leads to adverse effects on muscle and brain function. [2]

A large part of the world is deficient in Vitamin D3, which is only found in animal foods. A deficiency in this critical nutrient is associated with depression and various diseases. [3]

Carnosine is found strictly in animal tissues. This nutrient can reduce damage caused by elevated blood glucose and may have strong anti-aging effects. [4]

The Omega-3 fatty acid DHA is critical for proper function of the brain. It is primarily found in animal foods like fatty fish. Studies show that vegans and vegetarians are often deficient in it. [5]

1. http://www.m.webmd.com...
2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
3. http://www.m.webmd.com...
4. https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
5. http://www.m.webmd.com...

My above arguments and sources are in favour of my original argument, which is that it has been proven rather difficult to maintain a balanced diet as a vegan.

Is it possible? Yes. But it's difficult, and much easier to do as a non-vegan. It would be unfair and not right to limit people to only eating vegan foods, and at the end of the day, there is no good reason to do so.
Debate Round No. 3
Stupidape

Pro

First Con has dropped many subjects like the China study. Giving Pro the advantage in those areas.

"Vitamin B12 is critical for the health of the brain and nervous system and is primarily found in animal foods. A deficiency can cause all sorts of adverse effects on brain function. [1]" Con

True. Yet, Pro has already proven its possible with some care to get sufficient b12 on a vegan diet.

"Creatine is an important nutrient in muscle and brain that helps to supply energy. Studies show that vegetarians have a deficiency in creatine that leads to adverse effects on muscle and brain function. [2]" Con

Looking at Con's source, wikipedia there is no mention of vegetarians having creatine deficiencies. Instead that creatine is significantly lower in vegetarians. Also, the sample size was only 18 and 24, which is small. Pro contends that creatine deficiency is of no concern to vegans.

"A study involving 18 vegetarians and 24 non-vegetarians on the effect of creatine in vegetarians showed that total creatine was significantly lower than in non-vegetarians." [25].

"A large part of the world is deficient in Vitamin D3, which is only found in animal foods. A deficiency in this critical nutrient is associated with depression and various diseases. [3]" Con

Pro cannot find the statement in the provided link by Con stating that a large part of the world is deficient in D3. Instead Con links to WebMD, which doesn't state what Con claims WebMD does. Could Con please link to where Con got the quote? Pro contends its unfair for Con to quote a source and then fail to link to the source. This is because Pro cannot tell the context of the quote in its original source.

Pro has searched the internet and found what appears to be the source Con has quoted. [26]. This is either sloppy or dishonest on Con's part to give credit to WebMD when authoritynutrition.com was the source of this quote.

From the authoritynutrition site all it states is that vitamin D from animal foods is more effective. Then, the author, Kris Gunnars, lists all the consequences of vitamin D deficiency. Gunnars fails to make the connection between eating vegan and vitamin D deficiency. Pro contends that adequate vitamin D can be easily achieved on a vegan diet.

"Carnosine is found strictly in animal tissues. This nutrient can reduce damage caused by elevated blood glucose and may have strong anti-aging effects. [4]" Con

Claim: Carnosine is of little consequence.
Warrant: "Carnosine deficiencies are extremely rare" [27].
Impact: Carnosine is of little to no impact. Also vegans can always see a doctor to make sure they are getting enough nutrients. Supplements are an option.

"The Omega-3 fatty acid DHA is critical for proper function of the brain. It is primarily found in animal foods like fatty fish. Studies show that vegans and vegetarians are often deficient in it. [5]" Con

DHA omega-3s can be found in sea weed and micro-algae. ALA omega-3 can be obtained from flaxseeds.

"Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) is an omega-3 fatty acid found in cold-water, fatty fish, such as salmon. It is also found in fish oil supplements, along with eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA). Vegetarian sources of DHA come from seaweed." [28].

"Omega-3 fatty acids for nutrition and medicine: considering microalgae oil as a vegetarian source of EPA and DHA." [29].

Vegans can receive all omega-3s from vegan sources.

"My above arguments and sources are in favour of my original argument, which is that it has been proven rather difficult to maintain a balanced diet as a vegan." Con

Perhaps the best argument Con has made thus far. Yes, a vegan diet is more difficult. Part of the reason for the difficulty is lack of vegans. If there was more plant eaters, the ethical eaters could band together and lend each other support.

"Is it possible? Yes. But it's difficult, and much easier to do as a non-vegan. It would be unfair and not right to limit people to only eating vegan foods, and at the end of the day, there is no good reason to do so."

Pro has already given several reasons why there is good reason to eat vegan. To reiterate, animal happiness, environment, health, and to mitigate world hunger. Pro contends it would be unfair to hungry people for wealthy people to continue to eat meat, dairy, and eggs. Animals happiness matters, and it would be unjust to continue to exploit animals by producing meat, eggs, and dairy.

Pro looks forward to the next round of debate. Vote Pro, there are plenty of good reasons to ban meat, eggs, and dairy worldwide.

Links
25. https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
26. http://authoritynutrition.com...
27. http://www.livestrong.com...
28. http://umm.edu...
29. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
KatDoesGoPro

Con

Throughout this entire debate, Pro has continuously given evidence on how it is completely possible for a vegan diet to be healthy. This is true, however, it's just not easy, and I think we can both agree on that. Worldwide veganism would bring just as many cons as it would pros.

Pro had already stated many of the pros:
"Pro has already given several reasons why there is good reason to eat vegan. To reiterate, animal happiness, environment, health, and to mitigate world hunger. Pro contends it would be unfair to hungry people for wealthy people to continue to eat meat, dairy, and eggs. Animals happiness matters, and it would be unjust to continue to exploit animals by producing meat, eggs, and dairy"

But let's take a look at the cons:

A radical change: Going vegan is a huge change and can sometimes be even more complicated if you are not allowed to eat certain ingredients such as soy.

"Complete plant proteins are found in soy products, so if you're trying to moderate your intake of soy, you have to learn how to put together complementary foods to form complete vegetarian proteins," says Jackie Keller.

Potential interference with existing medical conditions: If you have a condition such as osteoporosis or diabetes, it is critical to consult with your physician and a registered dietitian when starting and implementing a vegan eating plan, as a vegan diet may interfere with your condition.

Difficulty when dining out: Not many restaurants offer true vegan choices and this can make dining out difficult. Mehta advises carrying vegan foods and snacks to make eating out easier when traveling long distances.

Loss of essential vitamins and minerals: There is evidence to show vegan diets do not contain vitamin B12, an essential nutrient.

"Vegans can get vitamin B12 from fortified foods (some brands of soy milk, fake meats, breakfast cereals and nutritional yeast) and from supplements. Vegan diets may be low in calcium and vitamin D although there are vegan sources of these nutrients," says Reed Mangels, PhD, RD, nutrition advisor for The Vegetarian Resource Group (vrg.org).

Unrealistic expectations: "A person might believe that by being vegan they are making themselves healthier. There are no good data of which I am aware proving that simply being vegan as an isolated behavior improves health," says Anne Applebaum. There has to be a balance of diet, exercise and a proper fitness regime.

http://www.livestrong.com...
http://www.vegetarian-nutrition.info...
http://chickpeamagazine.com...

So, what is my point, you may ask?
Well, I am certain a chicken would put another chicken's life before a human's. While you are thinking about the animals, we have to think about the humans as well...
Debate Round No. 4
Stupidape

Pro

"This is true, however, it's just not easy, and I think we can both agree on that." Con

Veganism is mostly difficult because there are insufficient vegan choices at restaurants and not that many vegans worldwide. The more vegans, the easier it would be to be vegan.

"Worldwide veganism would bring just as many cons as it would pros." Con

Con has not proved this point. Pro has shown how worldwide veganism would help.

"But let's take a look at the cons:

A radical change: Going vegan is a huge change" Con

The status quo is not self justifying.

"and can sometimes be even more complicated if you are not allowed to eat certain ingredients such as soy." Con

In a previous round the discussion of relying too heavily upon soy was discussed. Over consumption of soy is different than the complete elimination of soy. Relying too heavily upon any ingredient will most likely lead to food allergies. The exception being water. Pro does not think you can get a food allergy from drinking too much water. Soy in moderation is healthier than meat in moderation. Soy has phytonutrients and fiber which meat doesn't have.

""Complete plant proteins are found in soy products, so if you're trying to moderate your intake of soy, you have to learn how to put together complementary foods to form complete vegetarian proteins," says Jackie Keller." Con

Pro calls the entire complete vegetarian protein a large misunderstanding. Just eat a variety of vegan foods and enough protein and you will be fine. Your body can synthesize ten out of twenty of the amino acids.

"Myths abounded about the necessities of combining certain foods in order to obtain complete protein. In reality, protein deficiencies are uncommon in vegetarians who eat eggs and dairy products, according to the Harvard Women's Health Watch. Vegans, who eat no animal-based foods, can get enough protein by eating nuts, grains and seeds, which offer incomplete proteins that nevertheless meet your body"s needs when consumed responsibly." [30]

In summary, don't worry about complete proteins.

"Potential interference with existing medical conditions: If you have a condition such as osteoporosis or diabetes, it is critical to consult with your physician and a registered dietitian when starting and implementing a vegan eating plan, as a vegan diet may interfere with your condition." Con

There is some question of whether or not the body can use calcium from milk. "The galactose in milk may explain why milk consumption is associated with significantly higher risk of hip fractures, cancer, and premature death." [31]. Calcium can be found in leafy greens like collars and kale . Kale contains 9% calcium and only 33 calories per cup [32]. Soy milk also has a large amount of calcium. [33]

As for diabetes. Meat and dairy consumption can cause diabetes and insulin resistance. Fiber and phytonutrients help with blood sugar spikes. "Red-meat consumption is already linked to higher levels of colorectal cancer and cardiovascular disease (atherosclerosis, heart disease, and stroke). Now researchers from Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH) have added an increased risk of type 2 (adult onset) diabetes to that list. " [34].

"Low-fat vegetarian and vegan diets are associated with weight loss, increased insulin sensitivity, and improved cardiovascular health." [35].

Links 34 and 35 prove meat and dairy increase the risk of diabetes. Link 31 proves drinking milk increases chances for hip fractures.

"Difficulty when dining out: Not many restaurants offer true vegan choices and this can make dining out difficult. Mehta advises carrying vegan foods and snacks to make eating out easier when traveling long distances." Con

True, this is why its imperative to ban meat, eggs, and dairy. Then, many more vegan choices would be offered in restaurants.

"Loss of essential vitamins and minerals: There is evidence to show vegan diets do not contain vitamin B12, an essential nutrient." Con

Some vegan diets are healthier than others. There are supplements. B12 comes from bacteria. Bacteria can be found on raw fruits and vegetables.

"There has to be a balance of diet, exercise and a proper fitness regime." Con

There is wisdom in these words. If you are sedentary, not matter what diet you are on you will not have ideal health.

"So, what is my point, you may ask?
Well, I am certain a chicken would put another chicken's life before a human's. While you are thinking about the animals, we have to think about the humans as well..." Con

Pro has proven through scholarly peer reviewed journals that a vegan diet is healthier. Even if animals weren't sentient, a vegan diet would still be healthier, the environment would benefit, and land designated to feeding livestock could now feed hungry humans.

Pro has once again refuted Con's claims. Save animals, humans' health, the environment, and feed the hungry by eating vegan. Meat, dairy, and eggs should be banned worldwide. Vote Pro.

Links
30. http://www.livestrong.com...
31. http://nutritionfacts.org...
32. http://nutritiondata.self.com...
33. http://nutritionfacts.org...
34. http://harvardmagazine.com...
35. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
KatDoesGoPro

Con

Pro has used "vegan diet is healthier" tactics in nearly all of his rebuttals, but then again comes one of my first arguments, which was:

"Vegan diets also recommend that people shun added sugar, refined carbohydrates, vegetable oils and trans fats. This is probably the reason for any health benefits, not the removal of unprocessed animal foods."

Thank you for this debate.
Debate Round No. 5
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