The Instigator
Lilithian_Panel
Pro (for)
The Contender
blamonkey
Con (against)

Men Have It Worse Than Women In Modern America.

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Debate Round Forfeited
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Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 4/5/2017 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 786 times Debate No: 101724
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

Lilithian_Panel

Pro

I would like to start this by saying that I believe that all people should have equality and that female rights also still serves a purpose, however I believe that the public pursuant to the idea that men have always and therefore will always have it better than women has become unable to properly recognize problems surrounding men.

I believe the single greatest proof that it is worse for men than women is the following statistic from the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention: "Men die by suicide 3.5x more often than women." (http://afsp.org...). I believe the number of red flags that should raise regarding the way we treat men are numerable. Another example is out of all sole custodial parents following a divorce, 93% are women (http://www.newsweek.com...) . I believe if nothing is done in order to somehow improve the situation of men then as other groups actively increase the rights of the populations they represent, the comparative decline of men will have disastrous results.
blamonkey

Con


Framework

This debate needs to focus on modern america, as per the resolution, and must determine whether men or women “have it worse” in the status quo. Thus, we need to look toward on balance how different factors ie economics, violence, etc. affects the population of each gender.


C1: Financial status and health

Women have the short end of the stick in terms of their finances. In fact, The Kaiser Family Foundation shows that in all states except Oregon, women represent more of the impoverished population than men, or in a few states, equal representation. Overall, 14% of women are impoverished, as opposed to 10% of men (1). The Associated Press-NORC (University of Chicago) Center for Public Affairs Research published an article furthering this point in July of 2016, where it cites the National Institute on Retirement Security and shows that women are 80% more likely than men to be impoverished after the age of 65 despite typically earning less money before they receive their social security checks or retiring, 50% of women are dependant on their social security checks as their biggest source of income, and 14% less likely to say that they will qualify for a pension (2). The article continues, explaining that because women typically take on caregiving responsibilities, they receive lower wages from part-time jobs, creating a wage gap between women and men. The Pew Research Center looks estimates the gap to be 17 cents less per dollar for a women (11). This doesn’t even mention the inflating cost of medical attention for all ages that women have to deal with while earning less money. Pricewaterhousecoopers, one of the biggest auditors worldwide, analyzes the Bureau of Labor Statistics data to find that in 2017, medical inflation will grow 6.5%, the same as last year, while CPI (the general inflation rate of products,) is at 1% (3) (4). Since businesses offer health care plans and need to cover business expenses while still maintaining a profit, businesses then have to make more revenue despite low prices for their goods, while being able to cover inflating medical costs. Businesses shift the cost to the employee as the price increases by the aforementioned 6.5%. Women, who make less money, would not be able to swallow the increase in price as much as men, and thus, are more vulnerable to medical expenses that are necessary.


C2: Sexual violence

Gender related violence is common, and mostly against women. The National Sexual Violence Resource Center reports that over 90% of sexual violence victims, be it rape or harassment are female (5). What’s more, the plight of those who are sexually harassed goes unnoticed by the majority of law enforcement who are supposed to protect people. The Rape, Abuse, and Incest Network shows that out of 1,000 rapes reported, only 6 will ever be prosecuted in the US, and is thus one of the least prosecuted crimes of all time (6). The problem grows ten-fold when one realizes the effects that the victim is forced to deal with. A study from the University of Alberta in 2006 shows that over ½ of rape victims suffer from some form of PTSD, which symptoms include chronic depression, suicidal thoughts, and panic attacks. These symptoms have real effects on health, with many victims lacking the will to live after sexual violence occurs. RRS Online cites information from the Medical University of South Carolina, showing that women who are raped are 13x as likely to commit suicide as compared to non-crime victims (9). Since, yet again, I proved that this disproportionately affects women, we see that a vote in the negation is warranted.


R1: Suicide

The suicide rate has always been high for men, and while it does not seem to be going down anytime soon, when the topic specifies “modern america,” one would expect to be debating issues that directly correlate with the modern world. A Colorado State University report from 1998 shows that this problem existed back then in much of the Western world despite more women attempting suicide, but are more likely to fail in their attempts. Men, on the other hand, are more likely to die from suicide than women but experience less mental health problems and are less likely to express desire to commit suicide (10).


R2: Impact

My opponent gives no evidence in regards to rights being granted to women translating to less rights for women. Men typically have had their rights throughout the ages in the US despite women being granted suffrage, or the ACA getting rid of the practice of gender rating, (intentionally giving women higher costing health plans.)


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Debate Round No. 1
Lilithian_Panel

Pro

Response to C1: Financial Status and Health
Firstly, in consideration of the topic of finances, I believe we should address the elephant in the room. Wage gap. Studies show that once accounting for factors such as difference in education and experience there is virtually no difference in wages (http://consad.com...). I will however concede that currently on average women earn less, however, I would like to raise that this is in part due to mortality. Firstly, men on average can expect to live to 76 years of age while women can expect to live to 81 years of age (https://www.cdc.gov...). Secondly, men account for ~93% of workplace deaths (http://www.bls.gov...)(2005). I would charge that this lower life expectancy means that the impoverished ratio fails to account for the less weighted geriatric community meaning that much of the statistics are based on data which has the average age of men younger than women and in essence allowing the elderly women sub-demographic to drag down the women statistically. Likewise, I would like to contest article (2), on the basis that wage gap statistics typically only include full-time salaried workers and not part-time salaried workers (http://www.pewresearch.org...). I would argue that the higher cost of health insurance indicates a boon to women as evidenced by their significantly lower percentage death rate to cancer and heart disease (https://www.cdc.gov...) and significantly higher investments in diseases specific to them such as breast cancer (http://www.telegraph.co.uk...). I showed that men are more likely to die on the job, live shorter, have higher mortality rates and get less in funds for health research in key areas.

Response to C2: Sexual Violence
This is actually a really interesting one since it is hard to even know if female on male rape is even illegal due to the often gendered terms used in the definitions and lack of inclusion of clauses referring to "Rape by Envelopment" (https://definitions.uslegal.com...). Additionally I would generally consider all statistics related to sexual violence and domestic abuse as needing a high degree of scrutiny due to low reporting rates among both sexes. For example, In domestic abuse it is shown that men and women commit it in similar numbers: http://www.statcan.gc.ca... (Yes, this is Canadian, but I believe the point would persist across the border.) Additionally, simply because 1,000 rapes are reported that does not mean that a rape was committed. While it is horrible for women to be raped, it is also horrible how we treat the accused of late, with lowered standards in colleges resulting in lives ruined and relatively little in the way of protecting the accused (https://docs.google.com...). Lastly, it is repeatedly shown that men are less likely to be taken seriously when reporting rape or domestic assault, given less aid in the aftermath of such incidents, and general discriminated in such proceedings with many refusing to believe such a thing could happen to a man (http://www.saveservices.org...)(http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com...)(http://www.mndaily.com...)(http://www.xojane.com...). I proved that we know absolutely nothing about the rates at which male abuse and rape happen at while also showing there is De Jure discrimination against men.

Short response to R1: Suicide
I would argue that it doesn't matter how long it has been happening if it is still happening. It's relevant. Also many statistics include self-harm, lack of care for life, and actual attempted suicide. Additionally, I would raise it is a concern if one party is clearly much better at committing suicide, likely indicating a better competency at doing so or a higher resolution to the matter. Additionally, I would charge men are more likely to conceal their suicide attempts.

Short response to R2: Impact
I assume you mean less rights for men. I charge that the impact of our current situation is the higher suicide rate, the lower life expectancy, the dropping rates of attendance at college, the general struggle in education, the rates of homelessness, and the lack of report on rape and domestic abuse. (http://www.theatlantic.com...)(http://www.deseretnews.com...)
blamonkey

Con

R1: Finance, health

My opponent starts his rebuttal claiming that the gender wage gap, when controlled for factors such as education, experience, and mortality, have lower wages. Here is the issue, because regardless of having the wage gap linked to anything, the fact that women are typically paid less in modern america still has my impacts, regardless of whether it is the fault of women or genetics. Also, your argument about older men not being counted in the survey of the impoverished needs substantial evidence showing that older men are undercounted. By just stating that since their life expectancy is lower, so will be there representation, you don’t convince me or the judges. In fact, one of my statistics from the Associated Press and NORC has already shown that women are more likely to be impoverished than men after 65:

“The National Institute on Retirement Security, a nonprofit research center, reports that women are 80 percent more likely than men to be impoverished at age 65 and older. Women age 75 to 79 are three times more likely.” (1)

Thus, the geriatric community is more densely populated for women, not men.

Finally, my opponent talks of women deserving less coverage due to them not being killed off as much as men through cancer or heart disease. This does not take into account, for example, therapy since women have higher rates of mental health problems and rape that affect women disproportionately as shown through both the National Sexual Violence Research Center and NCBI report regarding the “gender paradox” in suicide (2) (3). Regardless, the fact that my opponent conceded both of my impacts, one regarding finances, the other regarding health, that should tell you who won this argument.


R2: Sexual Violence

First, the fact that people can be tried for rape against males already puts a hole in your argument regarding men not being prosecuted for rape. Then, he claims that his statistic from Canada occurs on both borders. This is a bare assertion with no evidence. Canada has radically different social problems than the US as well as less people and urbanization. Don’t by this argument. Also, he talks of domestic violence, not rape like I brought up in my contention. But even if you disregard this, the point of this debate is for my opponent to prove that men have it worse than women, not equal problems. In actuality, the amount of documented abuses are rising, especially on college campuses with White House task forces and media campaigns as shown by The Washington Post in July of 2014 (4). Regardless of how you feel about how rapists are treated, it is fair under the law to treat any criminal, regardless of their crime, as needing to regain trust with the community and be scrutinized, regardless of how it affects the criminal. Protecting people who may or may not be innocent affects all people, not just based on gender. First, the evidence used to prove that men are not likely to win false accusation cases stems from two incidents regarding a letter from the Department of Education affecting colleges and Rape shield law. These laws may have been problematic, but it does not show exactly how men are likely to be accused falsely of rape specifically. In fact, The Guardian shows that public defenders which assist those who can’t afford professional lawyers are underfunded, disappearing, and inexperienced leading to subpar lawyers for everyone, not specifically men. Also, I provided a statistic about the rate at which women are raped compared to men, so I don’t see how your point about men not being shown in rape statistics stands. Also, I have shown that all rape is underreported and stifled, with only 6/1,000 cases ever being brought to court, so the problem of lack of care about rape is mutual to both parties, going against the topic in which my opponent has to prove that men have it worse.


D1: Suicide

The fact of the matter is that the modern world is what matters most. Yes, men tend to kill themselves more, but weigh this against women having more attempted suicides and psychological issues as well. The fact that this is not a new trend goes against the fabric of the resolution that talks of modern America. Also, it goes against my resolution that spoke of modern America, while my opponent has offered no alternative.


D2: Impact

My opponent has still not proved to me this:

“I believe if nothing is done in order to somehow improve the situation of men then as other groups actively increase the rights of the populations they represent, the comparative decline of men will have disastrous results.”

Just because men typically die faster is not evidence showing that equality for women during the civil rights movement, or any attempt at equality will hurt men. Again, problems like men dying quicker has been around for a while.




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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by RandomSmartass 1 year ago
RandomSmartass
In America women have more rights than men, are given less harsh punishments for the same crimes as men, and still complain about nonexistent problems. Men do generally have it worse than women who's biggest problem is "mansplaining"
Posted by blamonkey 1 year ago
blamonkey
Sorry, just got concerned that this would be a dead debate due to a.flitch in the system that prevents forfeited debates from moving forward
Posted by Lilithian_Panel 1 year ago
Lilithian_Panel
Sorry that was so close. I ran out of text too... I am really tired now, and I have a test tomorrow, ugh. Goodnight.
Posted by blamonkey 1 year ago
blamonkey
Are you nearly done with the case? You don't have much time.
Posted by Lilithian_Panel 1 year ago
Lilithian_Panel
Just accept and have fun.
Posted by blamonkey 1 year ago
blamonkey
Do I need to apply in the comments or just accept the debate?
Posted by Lilithian_Panel 1 year ago
Lilithian_Panel
lacov, It is assumed in the context that "worse" refers to the relative overall condition. Any attempt to define worse as far as I can tell would devalue the point of the debate itself, although I do believe that any attempt to win through technicality instead of addressing the actually issue would be in poor sportsmanship. In which case, I would hope the voters would vote for the one who proved the point and not the one who distorted the point.
Posted by Iacov 1 year ago
Iacov
Seeing as you didn't define what is worse I think it would be fairly simple to disprove the title.
Posted by Lilithian_Panel 1 year ago
Lilithian_Panel
WAKAWAKA. Both. Your goal is simply to disprove that men have it worse hence proving either would suffice.
Posted by WAKAWAKA 1 year ago
WAKAWAKA
if I accept what position am I arguing, Woman have it worse or simply men don't have it worse?
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