The Instigator
SirCrona
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Mister_Man
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

Men and Women Are Equal

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Mister_Man
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/4/2014 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,217 times Debate No: 66382
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (2)

 

SirCrona

Pro

My opponent made statements on this topic that I feel deserve a full debate. First round is for acceptance. I will be taking the pro position in this topic, and as such will argue that men and women are equal. My opponent, should he accept, must take the con position and argue that men and women are not equal.

A few rules for this debate:
-No arguments from sexism or other forms of bigotry. For example: "This argument my opponent has made is biased because he is a bigot." would not be OK. However, "This argument my opponent has made is biased because [Reason other than 'he is a bigot']." would be OK.

-No begging the question, nor circular reasoning. Circular reasoning is bad because it makes your argument weaker. Circular reasoning makes your argument weaker because it is bad.

-Semantic arguments are frowned upon. Merriam Webster's (http://www.merriam-webster.com...) English definitions will be used in this debate. If a definition other than Merriam-Webster's is used, that definition should be justified by the arguer and its source should be properly cited.

Good luck.
Mister_Man

Con


How did I know as soon as I saw your response to my statement on that poll that you'd challenge me to this? thanks for the challenge, I appreciate it - I'd prefer a "formal" debate over an argument on a poll topic.


I agree to the terms and conditions, sign my life away.


For clarity, I'll give the definition of equality from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary, as you wish.


Equality - The quality or state of being equal [1]


Equal - Of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another [2]


Thanks for challenging me to this debate, good luck to you too!



[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com...


[2] http://www.merriam-webster.com...


Debate Round No. 1
SirCrona

Pro

My first point is on biology. Different sexes evolved in animals because having two sets of genes to inherit was more advantageous for the offspring. This accounts for the few physical differences in the sexes. However, if binary gender sexual reproduction created other differences, such as a lower tolerance for pain in one sex than in another, that would not be advantageous and natural selection would make short work of such a species. Evolution also mandated that the sexes be as similar as possible. To give an example: this is why both sexes have nipples, but only one makes use of them. This contradicts the misconception that women are superior caregivers. When the human race first evolved, life spans were short. Mothers did not always survive to raise their child, and often a male member of the group would have to raise it. The parental instincts existed in both sexes, so that children had a better chance of survival.
My second point is mental development. There exists no difference between mental development or natural talent based only on sex. Most large differences in skills come from nurture and nature (i.e. the conditions one was brought up in) instead of biology. The fact that men and women appear to have different natural skillsets can be explained by this fact. Society arbitrarily places different expectations on the two, and as such they tend to develop different skills because of this external influence.
Mister_Man

Con

Thanks, SirCrona.

Biology

I don't want to say this... but right off the bat you say "different" sexes, implying we aren't equal [1]. Although I do know what you mean, saying "Men and women are equal... here's why men and women are different" isn't too good for your argument, lol.

But back on point. There are physical differences between the sexes, thanks for clarifying. You're right that a self-replicating animal, or one that reproduces asexually, would not pass on any real advantageous genes, and the only real form of change from the parent to offspring would be slight adaptations to the environment. However my point is not that one sex has an advantage over the other or that one sex is better than the other - my point is that they are different/unequal. If I have a red ball and green ball, they aren't equal in colour, but they're both useful for playing catch with.

Similar =/= equal. You're right that we both have nipples, however a woman's nipples have a much different function than a man's. She uses hers to produce milk to feed her offspring, whereas a man... well, he doesn't. There's not much use at all for the male nipples, whereas there's plenty of arguably important uses for the female nipples. Another point since we're talking about nipples and breasts, women are about 100 times more likely to develop Breast Cancer than men. There's a 1 in 8 chance of a woman developing Breast Cancer [2], while there's about a 1 in 1,000 chance of men developing Breast Cancer. 8 =/= 1,000.

Women having the ability to breast feed does not make them "superior" caregivers, however they do have an advantage, and to say men and women are equal caregivers is just not right. Women produce "food" for their offspring, men don't. Although men can go buy milk, "Breastfeeding helps defend against infections, prevent allergies, and protect against a number of chronic conditions" - taken from KidsHealth.org [4]. So it's better for a child to be breastfed then fed from a bottle with a formula. It's also shown that women who give birth after 33 tend to live longer [5]. Do men have this option? Nope, so I wouldn't consider that equal, would you?

Staying on the biological track, I stated that women tend to live longer after they've given birth, but it's also a well known fact that women tend to live longer than men in general. Women also tend to weigh less and stand shorter than men, weighing in at about 166lbs, and 5'4" [6], whereas men tend to weigh about 195lbs, and stand about 5'10" [7]. These numbers are based on long-term detailed studies, do you think these height and weight differences are equal? Men and women grow differently, this is not a negative thing, just an inequality between the sexes. Also, as you can see, male babies and female babies are different in weight (on average), with males tending to be a bit heavier, and grow a bit faster [8].

Now I've got more points on Biology but I'm keen on jumping into mental development of the sexes, so let's just get into that.


Mental Development

You claim that the only reason men and women develop different skill sets and different levels of intelligence is due to societal expectations, or external influences. I say the development of the brain and neural capabilities falls into similar growth patterns as our biological growth patterns. Since we can't really give an IQ test to an infant, when no external factors have influenced them, we have to do the next best thing - Study overall grades in different subjects. Whether differences be attributed to societal norms, peer pressure, any type of outside source, I'm sure you and I can both agree that there are in fact many differences between men and women, mentally.

A study spanning from 2005-2010 shows that men excel in some areas where women excel in others, and are relatively similar (not equal) in others [9]. For example, if you chose to open the .pdf I provided you, you will see that women achieved A's seven percent more than men in Microbiology & Immunology, whereas men scored A's twelve percent more in Biochemical/Biochemistry Principles. Throughout most of the other subjects, men tend to score a bit higher than women overall. Is this attributed to societal pressure or standards? Maybe it's attributed simply to what those people are interested in, and it just happens women are more interested in Microbiology than Biochemistry. Maybe there's no "societal standard" at all, and it all boils down to personal preference, which happens to relate almost directly to sex.

It's also shown that women are now scoring higher than men on IQ tests [10], after men have scored higher for the past century.

So whether outside factors are a major influence or not, it doesn't change the fact that men and women are not equal in every area when it comes to mental capabilities.

I think next round (considering we have plenty of time) I'll get into job performance and what influences men to excel in some fields, and what causes women to stay put in positions they're comfortable in, instead of taking risks and moving up. I'll also try to bring social groups (such as Feminism) into the picture.


Conclusion

So far we've found out several things - men and women are biologically different from birth. Men tend to grow a slight bit faster, and continue growing after women stop, to achieve a bigger frame than women. Women are able to produce natural food for their offspring, while men can't, however this trait also raises the chance of Breast Cancer in women, and lowers it in men. And of course the same applies for male sexual organs - testicular and prostate cancer is much higher in men than women.

Mental capabilities differ through different topics, and simple differences in interests between the sexes can play a role. There isn't a definitive answer as to why there is a difference, but the main thing we know is that there is a difference, aka inequality.



Thanks for a good first round, looking forward to the rest!


Sources

[1] http://dictionary.reference.com...

[2] http://www.cancer.org...

[3] http://www.cancer.org...

[4] http://kidshealth.org...

[5] http://www.medicaldaily.com...

[6] http://www.livestrong.com...

[7] http://www.livestrong.com...

[8] http://www.cdc.gov...

[9] http://www.google.ca...

[10] http://newsfeed.time.com...

Debate Round No. 2
SirCrona

Pro

Before begin my rebuttal, I must clarify a debate-breaking mistake. My assertion is the claim that no traits inherently characteristic of either sex make them unequal, and the claim "men and women are equal" is pragmatism based on this. This blatant goal-shift is not tolerated in any respectable debate forum, and I apologise to con for this mistake and any confusion it may have caused.

I find your first point on biology a bit misleading, but I understand what you meant to say and why you said it. Not every difference makes an inequality. Nowhere in the definition of difference is there anything to link it to inequality [1]. Take that ball metaphor; they are different colors, but their color is just a quality, not a metric. Now, if you were to measure their diameter, mass, and surface texture and find them to be the same, then they'd be quite equal for playing catch. Any other distinction would be arbitrary. "Equal in colour" is quite a confusing way of putting it, as colour isn't any kind of quantity or measurement. Now, if you could prove, for example, that the red ball's manufacturer made balls that were more rough and massive than those made by the green one's manufacturer, then you could use color to infer that there was an inequality. In that case they wouldn't be equal, but the difference in color isn't what made them unequal.

Onto the next point. Yes, women are very much more likely of developing breast cancer, men are infinitely more likely to get testicular cancer (not taking into account trans people, that is.) But this particular disease statistic doesn't account for mortality or the overall probability of getting seriously ill at all. For example, men are the only ones capable of dying of testicular cancer, but it can be treated. In addition, while there are different body parts the sexes can get cancer in, they still both get cancer.

Onto your next point- breastfeeding fights infections. So do antibiotics. And dietary supplements. And a myriad of other modern health products that don't come from female glands. I also don't like the way you're treating the data, and that leads me into my next point.

The data you're using does not confirm your point. All these numbers definitely correlate, so it's tempting to conclude in favor of con. However, an important fact of logic that con seems to forget is that correlation does not imply causation. I'll suspend this thought process, as I need to advance into my next point before I can do this topic justice. You stated that we both could agree that there were mental differences between the sexes. Well, I for one can't. I would very much like con to present evidence of these mythical differences. Or is that what Con's statistics were supposed to prove? I beg to differ. The study demonstrated a trend. It didn't account for anything else, such as surveyor errors or school population by sex, and even then it wouldn't prove anything other than the obvious; Among students polled, women scored higher. There's no answer to "Why" or "how," and such my confusion with con concluding "because they are male/female." You said that this might be due to personal preference and that the sexes prefer different things, but the data you showed doesn't say anything to support such speculation. So then, Con, I bid you- prove your assertions and speculations. Where is your evidence that these are related to sex?

[1] http://i.word.com...
Mister_Man

Con

Thanks, SirCrona.

I understand your assertion, but you must understand that unequal does not mean better or worse. it simply means different. Take my ball example, Red and Green balls. They're both balls and can be used for mostly the same things, however are they equally red? No. Are they equally round? Yes. Are they equally enjoyable to play with? Depending on personal preference, but you can do equal activities with each ball. But they are not equally the same colour. Red =/= green. It is not a bad thing that one is red and one is green, just like one sex has breasts and develops different parts of the brain at different speeds, and one sex has no breasts and also develops different parts of the brain at different speeds, they are unequal, but one isn't superior to the other.

Biology

Yes, every difference makes an inequality. My definition of "difference" is "not alike in character or quality," [1] emphasis on quality. Not alike in quality is also said as inequality. Your definition doesn't have the word quality anywhere, so if anything we should just leave it up to the voters to decide which definition is more reliable.

"The colour of the ball is just a quality..." And what happens when the qualities are different? We get inequality. You're right that the balls would be equal for playing catch with, however they would not be equal in colour. Having one equal aspect does not make the two objects 100% equal. That's like saying one man and one woman both scored 121 on an IQ test, therefore men and women are equal. No, they aren't completely equal, we just have one situation where they scored an equal score on a test. This does not make the whole of the two sexes equal. The difference in colour is in fact what makes the balls unequal. It's the only unequal quality of the two balls. To say a red ball and a green ball are the same, or equal, just... doesn't make sense.

Cancer

You bring mortality rates into it, but those seem to be on my side. "Men are the only ones capable of dying from testicular cancer." - Women are not. This is an inequality. Women cannot develop testicular Cancer, this is an inequality. Men are much less likely to develop breast cancer, this is an inequality. Although both gender get cancer, 700,000 more men die than women due to Cancer, in 2013 anyway [2]. So to say Men and women are equal when it comes to diseases such as Cancer.... doesn't make sense.


Breastfeeding

The only difference is that breast milk is naturally produced by a woman. Antibiotics are not produced by men or women. Are you implying that the man-made medicine is equal to naturally produced "medicine"? Because it's not naturally produced, so I don't see how it's equal.



Data Usage

Where's my evidence that these are related to sex? By the outcome of the studies themselves. I see your point, however to say sex is not a factor when women score higher than men on tests... once again, doesn't make sense. A woman scoring 102 and a man scoring 100 is not equal. I'm sure we can agree on that. Is it strictly because they're just different sexes? I'm sure no, but when these scores are different within the sexes, doesn't that mean something? I showed you that infant boys and girls grow differently from birth, so it's safe to assume their brains also grow differently. The scores are a reflection of intelligence, and considering women score slightly higher than men as a whole, isn't that enough to show men and women aren't mentally equal? They grow differently (unequally) from birth, so what says their brains don't too? Actually, nothing says their brains don't, [3].

So what have we seen in this short time? Men and women are different, biologically and mentally, this is not a bad thing, and neither supports a "better" trait, however this does show there are many inequalities between men and women, during their mid life crisis, or from birth.

And please keep in mind that one difference in one area shows that men and women as a whole are not equal. They can share as many traits as you can count to, but if one thing doesn't add up between the two, the ability to produce natural milk, for example, that just goes to show that men and women, as a whole, are not equal.

Thanks, looking forward to a great conclusion.

[1] http://dictionary.reference.com...

[2] http://www.cancer.org...

[3] http://www.scientificamerican.com...

Debate Round No. 3
SirCrona

Pro

SirCrona forfeited this round.
Mister_Man

Con

Unfortunately we don't have much of a final round, so I'll sum up my arguments quickly here.

Absolute equality is achieved when all aspects of two subjects are equivalent.

A man and woman can appear to be equal at first, both sharing many similar or even equal traits, much like different coloured pens, however when we delve deeper into the separate traits and characteristics, we find that it's very hard for two things to be absolutely equal.

Take my pen example, once again. Two pens, a green one and red one (because it's almost Christmas, #yoloswag420), and we study them. They are both pens, they are both used for writing, with the same amount of ink, same shape and weight, and can be used for the same things, however they both aren't equally red or equally green. So back to men and women - they can achieve very similar accomplishments, they can think relatively the same, however biologically, they are very different. This fact alone is enough to say men and women are not equal. Men produce sperm, women produce eggs... they don't equally produce sperm or equally produce eggs.

I won't get into the intelligence parts of this again.

Thanks for a good debate, hopefully we'll be able to have a similar one in the future!
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Dilara 2 years ago
Dilara
Men are stronger and women are usually more connected to children. Women evolved to be the care givers and men to be the protectors and hunters. That's why in all societies in all time periods men were the warriors and hunters and women the are care givers. That's also why elementary and pre school teachers are usually women. Men have 50% more strength, 30% more lung capacity and 20% more red blood cells. It's also easier for them to build muscle.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
I just realized I switched from balls to pens, not sure what happened there but my brain obviously knows both can be sexual innuendos ;)
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
No problem man, life catches up with all of us at times. Hopefully we can have a full debate sometime in the future on a similar topic when we both have enough time.
Posted by SirCrona 2 years ago
SirCrona
Sorry I was unable to post. Life caught up with me.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
Sorry about the format, it got weird when I transfered from word.
Posted by Vajrasattva-LeRoy 2 years ago
Vajrasattva-LeRoy
More Gibberish ...

Nobody in their right mind would claim that
Men & Women or Male & Female are equal.
The many differences are easily recognized.

You might want to study the Wikipedia article on Sexual Dimorphism.
& you might want to recheck the claim that women are scoring higher on IQ tests than men.
I think that males score slightly higher.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
LETSGO this is a good debate topic
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
Give me one reason why I shouldn't have to clarify the definition of the exact word we're debating about.
Posted by AtheistPerson 2 years ago
AtheistPerson
I don't think you needed to post the definition of equal twice and give sources...
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by FaustianJustice 2 years ago
FaustianJustice
SirCronaMister_ManTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Think Con sort of directly addressed what made them unequal, and... that was that. Short work.
Vote Placed by Gabe1e 2 years ago
Gabe1e
SirCronaMister_ManTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: FF, plus Con's arguments were ultimately superior to Pro's. Pro simply asked rhetorical questions sometimes.