The Instigator
DrStrangeLuv
Pro (for)
Losing
8 Points
The Contender
socialpinko
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

Men should be permitted to abandon their unborn child

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
socialpinko
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/29/2011 Category: Society
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,205 times Debate No: 15662
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (6)

 

DrStrangeLuv

Pro

In today's world, equality between men and women is constantly being sought. Under the law, women and men enjoy virtually the same rights. However, there are loopholes. When a woman conceives, she has protection under the law to receive payment in the form of child support from the father of the child, despite the father's feelings towards the pregnancy. Women are also allowed to abort the child before it is born with zero consent from the father.

I propose that men have the legal equivalent of an abortion. They should, without a doubt, be allowed to sever themselves legally and financially from the unborn fetus and the mother if they so choose. They should not be forced to pay child support for a child they never wished to have. They should not be held to follow whatever the mother chooses to do.

To summarize, it is wrong to hold men accountable for a woman's decision because: The father has no say in what the woman does with her body, and so she should have no say in what he does with his money.
socialpinko

Con

My opponent begins this debate by stating that since men and women should have equal rights in some fields such as employment, voting rights, and education, they should have equal rights in every area of society. He argues that because the father may have never wanted the baby, he should not have to support it even if the mother decided to keep it.

My opponent would have a point here is the mother and the father both went through the same treatment during the pregnancy of the child. A father's biological job is over at the end of the sexual act. From this point on, the baby is biologically the mother's responsibility and as so has more of a say in the matter than the father.

The baby at during the pregnancy is part of the mother's body, that is why she has the right to an abortion. The father does not go through any more biological process' after initial conception.

The father is in the same position as a mother who has gotten pregnant and given up the right of an abortion, has the baby, and then decided she does not want to care for the baby anymore. The father is in the same position as this woman in that neither of them have the right to an abortion, medical or legal.


Debate Round No. 1
DrStrangeLuv

Pro

"A father's biological job is over at the end of the sexual act. From this point on, the baby is biologically the mother's responsibility and as so has more of a say in the matter than the father."
---This is absolutely correct. The mother does make the decision, but no where in biology does it say a man has to stick around. I suggest that the mother make her choice independent of any support from a man. If she wants to abort the child, that's fine, it is her body. But if she chooses to keep the child, against the father's wishes, then she should do so alone.

"The father is in the same position as a mother who has gotten pregnant and given up the right of an abortion, has the baby, and then decided she does not want to care for the baby anymore. The father is in the same position as this woman in that neither of them have the right to an abortion, medical or legal."
---Well:
1) The father biologically can't have an abortion, so to say he gives up the right to one is misleading.
2) Women who have "given up the right of an abortion, has the baby, and then decided she does not want to care for the baby anymore" can do so legally through adoption.
3) Women do have a right to an abortion so I'm not sure how this fits in.

To be more clear:
This should be assumed under current US law, which permits women to have abortions. Its her body, her choice. By that same logic, the money payed for child support is the mans, hence: Its his money, his choice. I am not saying men should force abortions on women, absolutely not. What I am trying to say is that men should not be held against their will to care for a child they do not want in a soceity where women have the last word on pregnancy.

As far as round one is concerned, Con did not provide any significant evidence against my argument and merely provided a quick lesson in biology.
socialpinko

Con

//"If she wants to abort the child, that's fine, it is her body. But if she chooses to keep the child, against the father's wishes, then she should do so alone."//

The reason a woman is allowed the right to abort her child is because A)The child is part of the woman's body before it is born and the woman has the right to have whatever procedures she wants on her body. B)The fetus' existence is ended during the abortion and thus the fetus cannot suffer after the abortion, like one can be hurt by growing up with the support of only one parent.

The woman forfeits her right to abandonement at the moment of birth, as the father forfeits his right to abandonement at the moment of conception.
Debate Round No. 2
DrStrangeLuv

Pro

The first half of my opponents round 2 argument merely restates what has been already described in detail during this debate and brings nothing new to the table. I know many people with one parent and I do not see that as the basis for a "life of suffering". Besides, not allowing the father to abandon doesn't guarantee the child will still be raised by both parents as some men simply give a monthly check to their estranged offspring and nothing else.

"The woman forfeits her right to abandonement at the moment of birth, as the father forfeits his right to abandonement at the moment of conception."
---I'd like to address this statement in a number of ways:
1) Women forfeiting their right to abandonment is correct, but this discussion is about abstaining responsibility. That can be done through adoption almost immediately after birth.
2) I am confused as to why the father forfeits his right to abandonment at the moment of conception. The fetus is not recognized to be a living citizen and is not protected by any rights. What is he abandoning exactly?

By allowing the father to legally sever his ties with the fetus before its birth he effectively has lifted the responsibility of child support from himself. Women can abort, because it is their body, but men should have a choice in the matter as well if their "partner" is uncooperative. It's his time, life and money on the line for something he never wished for, and he has every right to do what he wants with his life.
socialpinko

Con

//"not allowing the father to abandon doesn't guarantee the child will still be raised by both parents as some men simply give a monthly check to their estranged offspring and nothing else."//

Truee this does not guarrantee the child a smooth life, but it makes the father take responsibility for his offspring. A monthly check and a little monetary support is better than growing up without a father being raised by a single parent.

1) Women forfeiting their right to abandonment is correct, but this discussion is about abstaining responsibility. That can be done through adoption almost immediately after birth.

When a woman has an abortion she is abstaining responsibility for the child, however that child is no longer alive and so at least the child will not live with a single parent because their father is a deadbeat.

2) I am confused as to why the father forfeits his right to abandonment at the moment of conception. The fetus is not recognized to be a living citizen and is not protected by any rights. What is he abandoning exactly?

It is abandonement in that if left unchecked, his sperm will grow into an embryo and then a fetus and then finally a human baby. Conception is where the father absolves biological responsibility for the child and as such forfeits his right to abandonement.

Vote Con
Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mcc1789 5 years ago
mcc1789
@calverley79 Quote:
I refer you to the constitution of the united states of america.

" all men are created equal."
"all men reserve the right to life,LIBERTY, and property."

No, in fact you refer us to the Declaration of Independence, which has no legal standing, and besides that second line is a misquote, the word "reserve" is not found in relation to our rights, but rather how they are "inalienable." I don't mean to pick on you, but the Declaration is often confused with the Constitution, and misquotes only confuse things further.
Posted by DrStrangeLuv 5 years ago
DrStrangeLuv
the debate was about allowing men to sever their ties with the fetus. A sort of imaginary law I am proposing. Women should not have the ability to decide for TWO people. They should be only allowed to make the choice for themselves and not drag the man into the picture. If he doesn't want the unborn child he should be allowed to renounce it, before it is born though. It would still be his biological son, but he would not have any financial responsibility towards it.
Posted by calverley79 5 years ago
calverley79
1. A man is not physically able to abort a child, this is determined.

2. A woman is allowed to abort a child, this is determined

3. A man is not allowed to abandon a child, this is determined. IE. a man can not give a child up for adoption of his own free will without consent of the parental mother.

4. A woman is allowed to abandon a child through adoption if so desired.

5. The violation of the right to abort a child, or abandon a child by the male figure in any relationship is a direct violation of the constitution of the united states of america.

I refer you to the constitution of the united states of america.

" all men are created equal."
"all men reserve the right to life,LIBERTY, and property."

liberty is defined as a. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
b. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
c. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor.

Although disallowing a man to abort or abandon a child without punishment is a direct violation of a mans constitutional rights, it is completely illegal.
go democracy.
Posted by Jillianl 5 years ago
Jillianl
A fetus cannot be abandoned before viability because it cannot experience abandonment. Therefore, neither a man or woman can truly abandon a non-viable fetus. Once the fetus is viable and given birth to, then it can experience abandonment and therefore be abandoned.

A woman who aborts is not abandoning, meaning a man cannot abandon either. Rather, abortion removes to possibility of either parent choosing to abandon a child (viable fetus or older), unless of course they decide to adopt out.

Men cannot abandon the unborn because a woman cannot abandon the unborn. The unborn is un-abandonable. . . I think I may have made up a word, but it's get the point across. :P
Posted by Thaddeus 5 years ago
Thaddeus
Tink, I was unaware that having a baby meant one lost ones civil liberties and became a slave. This would raise an interesting question; is there a law of the conservation of rights? Given that a new born baby aquires rights, such as the right not to be abused physically, it stands to reason (lol) that the rights must have transferred from the father to the child, hence keeping the amount of rights the same in any fixed system.
Posted by Thaddeus 5 years ago
Thaddeus
Jillianl, you might want to work on your reading comprehension. At no point has what happens after the baby has been born been relevent in this discussion. The mother has full rights to bodily autonomy, but has no right to impinge the liberty of the father.
You have made an assertion without warrent that because abortion is exercising the right of bodily autonomy, she is not abandoning the child. Quite evidently she is exerting her right to be free of the child prior to the child having rights.
Ergo, since the unborn child has no rights, it logically follows that it has no right to ensure the father's fiscal or social responsability for the child.
Posted by Jillianl 5 years ago
Jillianl
Abortion and abandonment are two inherently different issues. Abortion is the killing of a fetus, which should be entirely left up to the choice of the person in which the fetus is growing. Men, not having any fetus growing in them, inherently cannot make this choice. Abortion is NOT abandonment, it is simply not consenting to allowing another being to USE one's body. Pure and simple.

Once a child is born, the dynamics of the relationship is completely changed. No longer does the child solely rely on another person body for all bodily functions. At this point, BOTH the mother and father can abandon through adoption, or one of the parents can decide to keep and raise the child while the other pays child support (if they do not want to co-care for the child). Once a child is born, NEITHER parents can abandon.

A mother excercising her right to abort is NOT abandonment, it is a right to bodily autonomy. So really, it is not that a father can't abandon, is it that neither parent can EVER abandon a child without adopting out or at least paying child support.

The premise opperates on the idea that a woman is abandoning a child when aborting, which is simply not true. Therefore a father never has a right to abandon either.
Posted by tink1017 5 years ago
tink1017
ok so im a say this flat out and idc who you are.... guys have NO right to leave a girl that HE GOT PREGNANT.... im sorry but a girl has this child in her 9 months and has to care for it the rest of its life.... so no they dont have the right to abandon them....
Posted by Thaddeus 5 years ago
Thaddeus
Unfortunately Jillianl, the man is not free to do so. I would even go as far as saying taking responsability for the child ought to be an opt in process, before the baby is born, as otherwise there is incentive for the woman not to tell the man about the pregnancy.
Posted by DrStrangeLuv 5 years ago
DrStrangeLuv
@Jillianl

I see your point, but what I suggest is that men have a "legal abortion" of sorts; being able to legally cut himself off from a fetus and its mother before it is born, so that even after birth he has no responsibility towards it. Currently, men who do this are hunted down and forced to pay support to the child, a child that they had no decision in.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by anarcholibertyman 5 years ago
anarcholibertyman
DrStrangeLuvsocialpinkoTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Good argments from both but Con came out slightly better.
Vote Placed by Jillianl 5 years ago
Jillianl
DrStrangeLuvsocialpinkoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro did a good job of defending his side, although I don't agree, so I gave them a tie for argument.
Vote Placed by mcc1789 5 years ago
mcc1789
DrStrangeLuvsocialpinkoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Although both sides argued well, it seems to me that Con's argument is more compelling.
Vote Placed by reddj2 5 years ago
reddj2
DrStrangeLuvsocialpinkoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro made a better argument
Vote Placed by bradshaw93 5 years ago
bradshaw93
DrStrangeLuvsocialpinkoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: con showed that fathers do not have the same rights in pregnancy situations as mothers
Vote Placed by Ryanconqueso 5 years ago
Ryanconqueso
DrStrangeLuvsocialpinkoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Neither party provided sources. However, Con did not provide compelling arguments, I felt it was put off until the last round so they could have the last word. Pro defined the conduct and did so in a proper manner without means of cheap besmirching due to personal opinion and word play without evidence.