The Instigator
RationalMadman
Pro (for)
Losing
17 Points
The Contender
DoctorDeku
Con (against)
Winning
27 Points

Men should prefer gays to lesbians

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
DoctorDeku
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/23/2012 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,598 times Debate No: 28556
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (7)

 

RationalMadman

Pro

Standard definitions.

First round is acceptance.
DoctorDeku

Con

This should be interesting. I accept and look forward to an entertaining debate.
Debate Round No. 1
RationalMadman

Pro

FOR THE DURATION OF THIS DEBATE A LEBSIAN IS 0% ATTRACTED TO MEN BECAUSE THEY WILL BE CONSIDERED PURELY HOMOSEXUAL, AS WILL GAYS, IF YOU DISCUSS BISEXUAL WOMEN THEN THE TERM LESBIAN, IN ANY DICTIONARY, WILL EASILY OPPOSE YOU.

There are many sexualities of men but those indifferent to humans shall be termed asexual (even if they like animals or something weirder) and neglected for the debate because they would like neither gender whatsoever.

So in my debate I shall address...

1) Gay men
2) Bisexual men (and pan sexual men)
3) Heterosexual men [split into 2 contentions]

Contention 1: Gay men should like gay men more than "gay" women (lesbians) because they are opposite opposites, thus they repel

Gays are only attracted to men. They shouldn't even care about lesbians in the first place or consider them a worry. The only time a gay might find reason to hate lesbians is that they take bisexual men away and hide the gay side of them away so the gay men don't stand a chance, and even this is in direct favour if my resolution. I honestly cannot think of a single reason whatsoever for gay men to prefer lesbians to gays because it's like a member of one army preferring the opposing army as a whole to his own army... That is just rather ridiculous because only his own army care for him and would risk their life to save his (I'm trying to say that gays would go out of their way to please gay men while lesbians really would be repulsed by them).

Contention 2: Bisexual men should like gays more than lesbians because neither will please the other, the lesbians have no attraction whatsoever to the men

This is very similar to contention one but now we have the issue that bisexual men are sexually attracted to lesbians, whereas arguing for gays was easier since they are not. HOWEVER, even if the bisexual man is a huge fan of bisexual women it is rather irrelevant with lesbians because unless he rapes them, they will not please him at all (I don't think a girl who never gets wet since she's turned off the whole time would feel good to rape anyway but that's just my dirty opinion). So quite simply, neither will please the other.

Contention 3: Heterosexual men should like gays more than lesbians because gays have done them a huge favour

A gay man is a straight guy's best friend (although arguably a bisexual man's even better friend if you know what I mean). While being the same gender as the guy, meaning they can discuss man-to-man in that easily relatable way, the gay has insight to a feminine-styled sexuality to give the best advice ever to their male counterparts. In fact, since gays are more feminine than most men, and since being feminine means lowered testosterone (which inhibits communication) this means the gay would be more capable of eloquently putting into words advice as to how to be a very attractive man. Additionally, gays themselves could easily have been a huge competitor to the male to get girls because they have insight to how girls work it makes it much easier. Instead of one gay being a potential threat to a female, the gay is in fact taking TWO THREATS away from you since they are constantly seeking to get in relationships with other men and thus reduces the competitive level of your gender absolutely.

Contention 4 (as Ore-Ele has already input in the comments): Heterosexual men should dislike lesbians more than gays due to the reduction of prey

Let's take heterosexual men to be predators hunting down women (let's face it they really are). Under this analogy the lions (men) want to hunt the Zebra (women). However, a lesbian is a zebra that hunts other zebras from within the group and has a far easier task taking them from you (apart from the fact that they are not designed to hunt zebra, like a woman isn't designed to attract straight women) but they find other zebra like them at times (other lesbians) who can be considered to 'kill' one another and sometimes find zebra who would have been easy prey for you but also were vulnerable to zebra cannibals (this is referring to a lesbian taking away a bisexual woman who could have been yours but due to the vulnerability to a woman's charm was stolen from you). Lesbians destroy competition, gays do nothing of the sort, they are pretty much lions that help other lions hunt while never competing to hunt, themselves.
DoctorDeku

Con

1. Introduction-
I want to begin by thanking my opponent for creating this debate. I look forward to an entertaining round and I hope all those reading this debate enjoy the things expressed herein.

For clarity I will not be arguing that men in general should lesbians to gays, I will instead be arguing for a 'balanced neg'. meaning that I intend to argue that both gays and lesbians should be preferred on the same level. I will first present a few arguments of my own and then move on to refute the arguments presented by my opponent.

2. Framework-
Con's opening framwork which pits the terms 'homosexual, bisexual, lesbian and gay' against one another is absurd and needs to be rejected. Sexual orientation is something not scientifically classified but chosen by each individual as a term of identity; I'll get into this point further during my discussion of the Kinsey Scale, but the point is that sexuality isn't as black and white as Pro lays it out to be, and there is no binding clause which I should accept such a semantic interpretation since it wasn't clarified prior to my acceptance.

3. Constructive-
The first thing we need to do is look at the Kinsey scale[1] which classifies human sexuality on a sliding scale between 0 and 6, with 0 being exclusively heterosexual and 6 being exclusively homosexual. The classic interpretation of gay and straigh is quite simply false dichotomy, 0s and 6s are very, very rare as human beings are at least 1 or 5 for the most part.
Actual attraction, and admitted attraction are two very different things. If one identifies themselves as a heterosexual, but is even incidentally homosexual (such as having an emotional attraction, or a mental attraction) then they are bisexual according to the Kinsey scale.
So on the issue of persons identifying themselves as gay or lesbian, it's not a matter of that person being a total 6 on the Kinsey scale, but that they identify as more homosexual than heterosexual.
[1] http://www.kinseyinstitute.org...

Next we see that emotional attraction plays a bigger role in forming relationships than does physical attraction[2]. This may not be the case in split moment physical relations *cough cough*, but in the long run it's the emotional attraction that counts. That's the very reason that long term-relationships endure in the first place, partners don't just run off with the most attractive person they see, as a conscientious adherence to natural selection isn't actively present in human relationships.
[2] http://en.darkq.net...

So with the sexuality issue out of the way, the question is what should we base preference one? The answer is that we place preference on individuals and choose who we spend time with based on a person, not their sexuality. Men shouldn't prefer gay men over lesbians out of a fear that lesbian might 'steal their woman', they should get to know each person personally and make their decision who they choose to let in their life based on the person's ethics and beliefs. Prejudice forms and takes shape when we make shallow decision such as this, and it leads to a culture of fear where we keep those unlike us at bay, just like segregation[3] following the emancipation proclamation.
[3] http://www.archives.gov...

Furthermore I attest that if Pro insists on following his current line of argumentation, then he must also prove that given the same conditions that straight men should prefer straight women over other straight men.

4. Refutations-
Concerning my opponent's contention 1,
I extend across my Kinsey scale argument; spoken sexual attraction doesn't mean that one may not stray outside of their preferences. Furthermore Gay men may choose to interact with lesbians as they would be able to relate to them about being persecuted for being gay better than a straight person would. Those who identify their sexuality outside of being straight tend to gravitate towards one another for that very reason[4]. They know other LGBT persons will be able to empathize with them better than straight persons.
[4] http://www.gaycenter.org...

Concerning my opponent's contention 2,
First I make a direct extension of my refutation on contention 1 as all of the aforementioned arguments are still applicable. But more so the issue of emotional attraction can be expanded upon here. While it's true that bisexual men and lesbians are unlikely to get together, it's not impossible[1]. Beyond that we see that bisexual men can not only relate to lesbians on the problems facing them as gay persons, but that their unlikeliness to form a relations makes a safe ground for them to form a deep friendship.
You don't have to make decision on who you interact with based solely on your libido. You can interact with a person because of their personality.

Concerning my opponent's contention 3,
This argument is riddled with false assumptions from the get-go. Being attracted to men doesn't give a man insight into what women want, it gives them insight into what other men want; if you want to know how to improve your relationship with a women, or to get in a relationship with a women, then a gay man isn't your best friend. A woman is. Furthermore, not only are Lesbians women, but they have relationships with other women; they'll be able to give a man better advice than a gay man could.
In other words, you're going to ask a mechanic how to fix a car because they know what they're doing. Not a carpenter just because you happen to be the same gender.

Concerning my opponent's contention 4,
Two things here; gay men also reduce the amount of men seeking a female partner, so the fact that lesbians also want to hook up with other women is a pretty mute point. As for my opponent's lion and zebra analogy, if you buy that analogy then this argument isn't really that big of a problem since straight men are going to have an advantage over lesbians in the first place. Furthermore, we see that the social stigma that still exists concerning homosexuality is a deterrent for women who swing both ways from getting with a woman.

5. Conclusion-
Vote Con, and maintain equality!
Debate Round No. 2
RationalMadman

Pro

I would like to use the Kinsey scale to re-iterate all of my contentions.

For this debate we shall say this:

Gay = man that is a 6 (exclusively homosexual)
Lesbian = woman that is a 6 (exclusively homosexual)
Bisexual Man = Man that can range from 1-5 on scale
Heterosexual Man = Man that is 0 (exclusively heterosexual) on scale

Now I want to genuinely ask you something. I do not know what you find attractive or unattractive but I would like you to observe the woman and man I am about to post links to (I am unable to post pictures directly into debate even if I paste form albums).

Both are what I think anyone attracted to either women or men would find extremely repulsive (hence ugly) and want to use this to explain why no matter how emotionally attracted one gets to an individual, engaging in a sexually fulfilling relationship of any kind would be rather impossible, unless one was forced to close their eyes and picture a more attracted sex partner while having the sex.

Artefact A: http://thebsreport.files.wordpress.com...

Artefact B: http://cdn.belfasttelegraph.co.uk...

Now I didn't post anyone with ghastly diseases but what I'm trying to propose is that no matter how much you loved either of them, you wouldn't have sex with them, and if you did you would have to probably close your eyes at many intervals to enjoy it.

Similarly any lesbian or gay (both 6 on the Kinsey scale) would never ever have consensual sex with a member of the opposite gender and be able to even remotely enjoy it. They see the opposite gender as you see those two artefacts, they are OKAY but not-at-all sexually attractive in the slightest.

This is why I am trying to explain that lesbians 'steal women' away from heterosexual men (0 on Kinsey scale) and gays 'reduce competition' for them.

So yes, I think I have successfully countered all rebuttals.
DoctorDeku

Con

1. Introduction-
It would appear that my opponent has chosen to frame his rebuttals in an alternative framework than a typical line-by-line. I do not wish to make this debate unclear and I want for the voters to follow the round easily as possible; to this end I will adopt my opponent's structure as of his last rebuttal and point out crucial drops at the end.

2. Rebuttal-
Concerning the Kinsey scale analysis,
My opponent seems to have ignored the fact that individuals who are an absolute 6 or 0 are very rare as most people are at least a 1 or a 5 What this means first and foremost is that most people who identify as being 'gay' are usually predominantly gay and incidentally straight as opposed to being exclusively gay.
Furthermore the nurture versus nature debate[5] has shown that while each individual has inborn characteristics about them that make them naturally want to gravitate to certain things, nurture still has a very strong effect on human sexuality. Or in clearer terms; Nature is the biggest influence but nurture can have a big effect.
[5] http://allpsych.com...

A classical example of this would be Dr. Robert Heath's[6] experiment where he hooked electrodes to the brain of a homosexual man to incite a pleasure response when experiencing heterosexual stimuli. The homosexual man eventually slept with a female prostitute.
[6] http://www.wireheading.com...

Concerning the two provided pictures,
The woman in Artifact A is 91 year old author Helen Thomas
This is a picture of her in 1932: http://www.familyoldphotos.com...

The man in artifact B, is from an article talking about ugly Irishmen: http://www.familyoldphotos.com...

The point is that providing a picture over the internet is neither an accurate estimation of one's looks nor is it proof that anyone wouldn't find a person attractive. It's just shallow and mean.

Here's a picture of Katy Perry: http://ia.media-imdb.com...
Here's another: http://i.telegraph.co.uk...
Here's anoth... oh goodness: http://girltalk247.files.wordpress.com...

An unpleasant picture of someone is not proof of, well anything. Especially not that men should prefer Gays to Lesbians. Furthermore my opponent logic following these pictures is non-sequitar to the pictures in the first place.

3. Drops-
My opponent drops quite a few arguments in the previous speech, I won't try to cover them all because that would be a waste time; instead I'll focus on the more important drops.

First: Equality,
I speak on how preferring one group over the other because of their sexuality harms equality. This went unrefuted

Second: Friendship,
I speak on how Gay men are more likely to build a friendship with some-one who can relate to their problems. This went unrefuted.

Third: Relatability,
I speak on how a lesbian is going to know what a woman wants more than a gay man. This when unrefuted

Conclusion-
Pro makes lots of drops and irrelevant refutations; vote Con!
Debate Round No. 3
RationalMadman

Pro

Tell me this: IF someone takes potential prey away from a predator what does it do to them? Makes them angry, especially if the thing is a prey itself that means TWO have gone out of bounds.

If someone takes potential competition away it is likable ESPECIALLY if it is potential competition itself.

Lesbians might know more about being a woman but gays thrash them in knowledge of what makes a man hot or not. Also gays are usually feminine-minded and understand the female brain better than lesbians who usually are very masculine-minded in the sense that they think more about systems than people, which is a male trait.
DoctorDeku

Con

Humans simply are not as carnal as my opponent makes them out to be, and they make decisions based on more than just who they want to have sex with. By preferring a specific set of people for such a shallow reason as gender, we make them out to be second class citizens and categorically discriminate against them.

Also the argument that since lesbians are actually woman who know what women like and desire still stands; because there are very very few people who are absolute 6's on the Kinsey Scale, it isn't unheard of for a man to hook up with a self-proclaimed lesbian -- it also isn't unheard of for a gay man to hook up with a women.

Our society, in an attempt to make homosexuality more aesthetically pleasing to those who disagree with it, have tried to make it seem as though those who are homosexual cannot help it, and while it's true you can't really change who you're interested in immediately sexuality isn't as black black and white a gay and straight. Straight people can decide they'd like to pursue a relationship with their own gender, and gays and lesbians could decide they'd like to pursue a relationship with another gender.

Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 4
RationalMadman

Pro

I made it very clear early on in this debate that we are only discussing sixes on the Kinsey scale. My opponent refutes my round four debate by saying not many people are 6, well that really is irrelevant to the theoretical theory that a scale 6 gay should be less preferable to a man then a scale 6 lesbian.

"sexuality isn't as black black and white a gay and straight. " Right... And this proves what? We are only discussing gays and lesbians, not whether they chose to be it.

"Straight people can decide they'd like to pursue a relationship with their own gender, and gays and lesbians could decide they'd like to pursue a relationship with another gender." What reason, in a society as liberated of conservative bullsh!t as the 21st century one, would a person have to engage in a relationship with someone they have zero attraction to? None. WE are only discussing sixes on Kinsey scale, a gay is gay, a Kinsey scale one is a form of bisexual, I said this before.

My opponent refuted nothing. He attempts to twist the entire debate by semantic abuse saying a "gay isn't truly gay" and a "lesbian isn't truly lesbian" this refutes a different resolution. MY resolution was purely that between gays and lesbians men should prefer gays.

I thank my opponent for trying though...
DoctorDeku

Con

I will use this round to first refute my opponent's last round arguments, then I will offer a few voting issues-
The Kinsey Six analysis my opponent propagates as being so important isn't really important at all; his clarification offered at the beginning of the second round is not binding in the least. On the other hand I have shown that there is an express difference between true sexuality and expressed sexuality. Absolutes and 0s and 6s may not exist at all since the kinsey scale takes into consideration emotional and mental attraction aside from just physical attraction.

As for the liberated society argument, that's an assumption unto itself; beyond that one may choose to pursue a relationship with a gender outside their usual attraction because of the aforementioned mental and emotional attraction. Despite the fact that my opponent makes attraction out to be purely physical, there is an important emotional and mental bond that is also present. My opponent never even tries to respond to this but calls it 'bullsh!t' and disregards it.

So then what are the voters you ask?
Drops, and conduct basically.
My opponent drops every single one of my arguments and takes to insult me instead.

Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by miketheman1200 4 years ago
miketheman1200
Only RationalMadman
Posted by RationalMadman 4 years ago
RationalMadman
Bet they used you like a b*tch HeWhoKnowsAll
Posted by HeWhoKnowsAll 4 years ago
HeWhoKnowsAll
It is like laying out the postulates and theorems for a quadrilateral. You give enough information that it is a four sided object with certain lengths and eventually you can prove ABCD is a quadrilateral. Logic unfortunately always has it's dark side also, I have been with two TOTAL lesbians before!!!!
It will be hard to argue against you RationalMadman so it will be interesting to see what con comes up with. Good luck guys!
Posted by Ore_Ele 4 years ago
Ore_Ele
This will obviously be because lesbians are taking available women, and so that leaves less for men to fight over.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by johnlubba 4 years ago
johnlubba
RationalMadmanDoctorDekuTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Rm Left the site
Vote Placed by The_Master_Riddler 4 years ago
The_Master_Riddler
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Reasons for voting decision: pro drops args.
Vote Placed by toolpot462 4 years ago
toolpot462
RationalMadmanDoctorDekuTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: bad bad.
Vote Placed by richarddong 4 years ago
richarddong
RationalMadmanDoctorDekuTied
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Reasons for voting decision: good good.
Vote Placed by andrewkletzien 4 years ago
andrewkletzien
RationalMadmanDoctorDekuTied
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Total points awarded:33 
Reasons for voting decision: Interesting debate. The general proposition in this debate suffers from the same problem discussions like these typically do: arguments by Pro led him into stereotypes (which being a gay man were quite accurate) and the unjustified movement from stereotypes to discussion on categorical, definitive, Kinseyan sexuality. Interesting debate though.
Vote Placed by YYW 4 years ago
YYW
RationalMadmanDoctorDekuTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Counter to hewhoobviouslyknowsnothing.
Vote Placed by HeWhoKnowsAll 4 years ago
HeWhoKnowsAll
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Reasons for voting decision: better arguments