The Instigator
JamesDavisI
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Kreakin
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points

Mental Healthcare

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Kreakin
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/10/2014 Category: Health
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 985 times Debate No: 45580
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (1)

 

JamesDavisI

Con

Psychiatric medications are entirely experimental causing many side effects including diseases such as diabetes. For continued visits and more profits practitioners trick patients into false diagnoses and detrimental labels. Mental health care aims to take advantage of those unfortunate enough not to have power, money, respect, and/or love. All alleged mentally ill patients would completely rid every so-called condition or disease through receiving more of the previously stated objects. I suggest resources be allocated to replace treatments. As soon as possible, in the coming years, all current standards must be abolished.
Kreakin

Pro

I accept this challenge. Thank you to my opponent.
I take psychiatric medications to relate to atypical and typical anti psychotics as these are primarily related to diabetes in psychiatry I believe.
As it is three rounds I will start with a brief rebuttal of my opponents points so far.
  • "Psychiatric medications are entirely experimental causing many side effects including diseases such as diabetes."
  • I would agree that some anti psychotics do have an increased risk of diabetes though lifestyle is still the most significant factor (1). Psychiatric medications are in no way experimental though, the testing process is robust and the evidence for the drugs benefits over placebo is blind tested. Only then is a license issued for human use. (2)

  • "For continued visits and more profits practitioners trick patients into false diagnoses and detrimental labels."
  • I can't believe you really mean that. Doctors swear a Hippocratic oath and spend years training to help people. This sounds quite paranoid. Please provide some evidence.

  • "Mental health care aims to take advantage of those unfortunate enough not to have power, money, respect, and/or love"
  • This is quite insulting to the dedicated staff teams that often go above & beyond to help people. Evidence this please or apologise.

  • "All alleged mentally ill patients would completely rid every so-called condition or disease through receiving more of the previously stated objects."
  • I strongly disagree and believe you would cause immense suffering and harm by depriving people of medications. Lots of patients would find their condition intolerable. Again please evidence this or concede the point.

  • "I suggest resources be allocated to replace treatments".
  • You are suggesting we don't treat people and just give them some cash and hope for the best?

  • "As soon as possible, in the coming years, all current standards must be abolished."
  • You have yet to give one good reason why your argument makes any rational sense.

Thank you & I look forwards to my opponents response on this emotive topic.

(1) http://www.medscape.org...

(2)US http://www.fda.gov...

UK http://www.mhra.gov.uk...

Debate Round No. 1
JamesDavisI

Con

You may refer to me by my name. I choose to support my statements with the assistance of others involved in the science in the form of citations as evidence only because I am not a superman. Then after your complaint is satisfied by circumstance, I target your evidence. Your first citation requires membership. Am I to spend my time making a membership for each specific site you prefer to be a citation? Diabetes is only 1 disease aforementioned, mentioned previously in other words, many other health conditions and diseases are caused by all types of psychiatric medications including: brain damage, in addition to confusion otherwise known as stupidity, heart attacks, other severe metabolic disorders, hyperglycemia, seizures, awful addiction, and extreme wait gain.(http://www.laleva.org...) (http://www.epilepsy.com...) (http://psychcentral.com...) ( http://www.benzo.org.uk...) In addition to diseases I will explain another example of detrimental effects. In 2011, due to almost 48,000,000 written prescriptions in the U.S. alone, the most popular drug, used for anxiety, was Xanax. (http://psychcentral.com...) Now according to the FDA, responsible for protecting the health of the public by overseeing all medications, a reliable website for patients to learn information about their medications is, "Drugs.com."(http://www.fda.gov...) If you look at this site and the side effects caused by the anxiety medication you will see there are approximately 184 different harmful side effects and the writer states, and I quote, "not all of these side effects may occur," most are likely. A brief list of the first mentioned effects include: being forgetful, changes in patterns and rhythms of speech, clumsiness or unsteadiness, difficulty with coordination, discouragement, drowsiness, feeling sad or empty, irritability, lack of appetite, lightheadedness, loss of interest or pleasure, shakiness and unsteady walk, sleepiness or unusual drowsiness, slurred speech, tiredness, trouble concentrating, trouble in speaking, trouble performing routine tasks, trouble sleeping, unsteadiness, trembling, or other problems with muscle control or coordination, and unusual tiredness or weakness. (http://www.drugs.com...)The effects of anxiety include most of the aforementioned side effects. In addition any person with anxiety, after reading the list of side effects, is likely to have more anxiety. It seems there is no point in the medication. The drug is detrimental and is poison. "Psychiatry," is the practice of diagnosing and treating mental health conditions. "Psychiatric," is anything in relation to Psychiatry. Due to your lack of knowledge of the very common vocabulary word, "Psychiatric," you missed a major premise of the entire statement. I describe all psychiatric medications.
Diabetes, "often referred to by doctors as diabetes mellitus, describes a group of metabolic diseases in which the person has high blood glucose (blood sugar), either because insulin production is inadequate, or because the body's cells do not respond properly to insulin, or both. Patients with high blood sugar will typically experience polyuria (frequent urination), they will become increasingly thirsty (polydipsia) and hungry (polyphagia)." (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com...) Effects of diabetes, "can range from heart disease to kidney failure to losing toes and fingers to nerve damage." (http://www.healthline.com...)
Diabetes journals says, "Numerous case reports have documented the onset or exacerbation of diabetes, including the occurrence of hyperglycemic crises, following initiation of therapy with many of the SGAs." This means Second Generation Antipsychotic medications and modern ones. "Several of these events occurred within a few weeks of initiating drug treatment. Additional cases of diabetes or hyperglycemia have been reported through MedWatch into the FDA"s Adverse Event Reporting System." The probability a patient ingesting antipsychotic medication becomes diabetic is twice that of the general population. 1 in every 5 persons taking medications for a therapeutic period become diabetic. Many cases occur when there is no weight gain in patients showing there are certain metabolic process causing disease as a direct result of the medicine while, even if it were possible which in the following sentence I will further detail, no lifestyle can affect this. In addition the lifestyle of a patient can not be the patient"s responsibility when the mind is hostage of chemicals. Therefore the lifestyle is the effect of the medication and diabetes is the direct result of the medicine.
If you consider a double-blind placebo trial of psychiatric medications, you know there are both sugar pills and psychiatric medications given to the test subjects. You can understand that before patients make it to the stage of clinical trials as guinea pigs, 100% of all patients have tried to fix their condition with multiple non-drug related techniques. Receiving a sugar pill, they can only relate to their previous failures to improve the condition. Receiving psychiatric medications is very different from non-medication techniques. These medications will undoubtedly and drastically change their mindset. Many patients will, just because of difference, or not for that matter, rejoice stating they feel much better. Yet a large percentage of patients take medicine for the rest of their lives. Considering as well all aforementioned negative aspects of the medications patients endure and the direct mental repercussions they are not and will not be better. It is very similar to Stockholm Syndrome in which people, patients, have positive feelings toward their life-threatening dangerous captor(s), their medication. (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...) I shall call it Poison Syndrome. Scientists simply do not know what to do and rely on heavily respected techniques. The only case in which placebo trials are not satisfactory, is that which tests the brain.
As double-blind trials for psychiatric medications are not valid it does mean that the medications are experimental. However, I initially referred to the experimentation of drug selection. Most mental hospitals have intake paperwork in which the patients sign a sheet stating something along the lines, "Treatment will be administered under scientific and legal guidelines however the process is of an experimental nature." This protects the hospitals in being as liberal as possible when prescribing medications. Anyone can understand that physicians are busy workers. Time spent with patients per day can be as short as 2-3 minutes. In this amount of time, based on current guidelines, and whatever the mood of the patient which I imagine is stressful considering he is imprisoned, the doctor prescribes a medicine. Often it is advised the patient take this medication for the remainder of his life. If the medication is not satisfactory to the patient he is given another, sometimes with a change of doctor depending on physicians" schedules. Science falls away when facing unmeasurable statistics regarding the proper strategy to prescribe a medicine.
For their entire lives patients carry their diagnoses with them. This is policy. It means that once someone is of a mentally ill nature they are always ill. Some sources say otherwise citing patients with severe mental illness can recover over a period of 20-30 years. (http://www.power2u.org...) That is a major portion of the current average lifespan. It is not acceptable. These persons have skills and qualities that can benefit everyone and they need to be given the opportunity to utilize them.
I believe, in general, doctors do the best they can to reap the most benefit to their patients. Most people are generally of good nature. I applaud the good emotional drive of these trying persons. The logical thought processes are, "they think they are very helpful," or simply, "do not know how to help their patients so they wing it." It is a fact some physicians, many more than you can comprehend, persons with much higher educations and intelligence than most of their patients, persons with more power than an average citizen, purposely poison customers in order to reap the benefits of compensation in addition to improving the intensity and need for more monetary and power assistance in the field.
Obviously, as it would be obvious to an elementary student, if patients did not have something to resort to in the process of helping their condition, and were stripped of their only crutch to lean on, their medication, horrible mindsets would consume them. I say this is the reason they started ingesting the medicine.
The patients are of a very desperate nature and need amazing support 100% of the time. I propose there is Resource Management and Council provided to these persons. I emphasize they are referred to as any other would be, not a patient, but a person. The council must be of no cost to the person. There are to be no diagnoses or labels. Of course there will be no drugs except during 1-time occurrences while someone may be in an emergency room. As you may not know each month billions of dollars are involved in psychiatric pharmaceuticals. This sustenance along with costs from mental healthcare can be combined to provide livings for counselors and benefits. Like any philanthropic project or government benefit program the situations of each receiver will be evaluated and verified. Upon criminal activi
Kreakin

Pro

"support my statements with the assistance of others involved in the science in the form of citations as evidence only because I am not a superman"

ah Ok then. Now we have established you are not Superman lets continue...


"Then after your complaint is satisfied by circumstance"

You lost me, what does that even mean?


"Your first citation requires membership.
"

No, just click the "Reference" tab & search, you do not need to member up or even sign in, just bother to take the time to look..


To balance your comments on side effects, I have already agreed that medications do have side effects, that is a no brainer.
The point is that the benefits outway the side effects and people choose to take the medications for this reason.

People can always refuse medication except in very limited circumstances.

People who suffer cancer know they will have very significant side effects from chemotherapy, the vast majority of people will choose to take the medication however.

I really was hoping for a serious debate, however your arguments sound like Scientology. I fear you are not open to any perspective but that of your religion. I will however make a brief rebuttal within the word limit you set. I will not include the writing in the comments and ask voters to do the same. You say I must include it but you are mistaken as you set the agreed word limit. And as you say "hush, hush" take your own advice please.

"Treatment will be administered under scientific and legal guidelines however the process is of an experimental nature."

I fear you just made that up.



"l considering he is imprisoned, the doctor prescribes a medicine."

Being detained on mental health grounds would kind of suggest some treatment would be appropriate?




"Science falls away when facing unmeasurable statistics"

Sorry, what, is that an attempt at TWS?



"For their entire lives patients carry their diagnoses with them".

That is just plain stupid, where do you get this from. I have worked with numerous people with mental health problems and only the few with enduring illness have enduring diagnosis (label's as you strangely call them).


"This is policy."
No it's not. Prove it... You cant because it's complete fiction.

" It means that once someone is of a mentally ill nature they are always ill."
Where do you get this BS?

"These persons have skills and qualities that can benefit everyone and they need to be given the opportunity to utilize them."
If you had any clue what on Earth you were talking about you would already know that the most part of support these days is support with learning these skills. This is along side medication and therapy where appropriate.


"I applaud the good emotional drive of these trying persons.""do not know how to help their patients so they wing it."
I am sure Doctors around the globe are rejoicing in your words of gratitude. They do not "wing it", judgments are made on what has worked or not and the symptoms V's the medication actions available.

"(Dr's)purposely poison customers"
Seriously, are you simple or what, sorry but that really is stupid & offensive.
You are either a troll or an idiot...


Sorry but after accusing GP's of deliberately routinely poisoning their patients an numerous other plainly silly arguments, I do not think there is an intelligent debate to be had here.

Please troll elsewhere...

Debate Round No. 2
JamesDavisI

Con

As it has been established I am not Superman I shall continue my statements. Due to misunderstanding of the sentences and possible interest in learning English sentence construction I provide a website for assistance here, "http://www.learnenglish.de...; Otherwise perhaps it is vocabulary assistance needed so check here, "http://dictionary.reference.com...;
My logic concerning diabetes as a result of psychiatric medications stands strong. It is a responsibility to cite individual specific sources. I cannot find the information. There is abundant information on proper citation and I am sure a local teacher could provide assistance.
As I have previously heard of Scientology, although only negative aspects, I am interested in learning about it. I have tremendous respect for all religions but only believe in science; I am a non-theist.
The character limit set was the maximum. I very much respect rules however believe in the end that content is most important.
My opinions of medication are known but the point is misunderstood. The act of imprisoning patients causes an anxiety disorder. Although before incarceration a patient would not have an anxiety disorder he would succumb to one in a hospital. The patient would be further misdiagnosed. English, although not most used, is most abundant around the world. There are often many English courses available in schools with open seats.
Google first comes up with, "Typical Woman Syndrome," "Tivoli Workload Schedule," and the "The Wildlife Society." TWS is not a common acronym. The 1st is very sexist and of no meaning while the 2nd and 3rd too simply have no meaning. It is important to speak in a manner which is of understanding to the receiving party. For example very common acronyms and proper English.
I understand the fact that formal permanent diagnoses is very stupid. As I've said any diagnoses is unhelpful to the patient.
These days, support for patients includes: arts and crafts, karaoke, dancing, group talk, and other relaxation techniques. These activities may be enjoyable but do not fix the source problem.
Psychiatrists and Psychologists routinely schedule appointments with patients simply for discussion of any topics of interest to the patient. When referring to physicians I describe mental healthcare specialists.
"There are no objective tests in psychiatry-no X-ray, laboratory, or exam finding that says definitively that someone does or does not have a mental disorder," was stated by Allen Frances, Psychiatrist and former DSM-IV Task Force Chairman. All diagnoses are matters of opinion.
A history of the psychiatric field includes gashing holes in skulls, praying away supernatural evil demons, chaining patients to walls with almost no ability to feed themselves while sitting in their own feces, putting them on display for sale, and beatings. (http://www.studentpulse.com...) More recently lobotomies were a common treatment. I have tremendous respect for the famous Kennedy family however in 1941 at age 23, John F. Kennedy"s sister, considered unstable by the family, underwent a prefrontal lobotomy leaving her incapacitated for life. (http://listverse.com...) The field currently provides electroconvulsive therapy and hypnosis. ECT is the process if sending high voltages of electricity into the frontal brain often inducing seizures. Hypnosis is, "the induction of a state of consciousness in which a person apparently loses the power of voluntary action and is highly responsive to suggestion or direction." (https://www.google.com...) Every treatment is beneficial to those involved and highly detrimental to the patient.

Mental health, as all things, is a direct result of real life occurrences. Many circumstances such as abuse effect mental health. Mentally ill patients should not be left to suffer unavoidable circumstances and be given the opportunity, very often with pressure from abusers, to ingest poison. It is very understanding that a person abused by his family and community would listen to these persons and follow suggestion. What I propose is direct intervention to solve problems.
I know a change will take time. I understand mental health care is a major field. Many people"s lives depend upon it. These people can be given new opportunities. As new solutions would be in place there would be no detriment to society caused by mentally ill citizens.
If a wife does not understand why her husband cheats on her, parents abuse their child, students bully their classmate, should the unable victim be prescribed, like a drug addict, medications or should he be guided on what action to take and given assistance?
I know a child who was abused by his upper middle class parents his entire life. He was not permitted to learn to write nor make friends. The abuse was so bad his health failed and he could not survive on his own. His parents forced him to see a psychiatrist and take medicine. In a hospital in Phoenix, Arizona, I was witness to his major withdrawals from an incorrectly prescribed muscle relaxant. Death was a likely possibility to the patient. The patient"s parents stated they had medical power of attorney and prevented the doctors from treating him. At this point through the fog and chemicals in his mind the patient exclaimed his parents were trying to murder him. The parents brought in a psychiatrist who declared the patient was having a psychotic episode. He was court ordered to take antipsychotics for a year. He is now still very ridden with physical health problems and is living in a homeless shelter. Is his treatment correct or should he be given better options?
You decide.
Kreakin

Pro

Thank you to my opponent for a slightly more realistic answer, unfortunately he is still not offering any proof, the burden is on him of course, to his resolution:"I suggest resources be allocated to replace treatments. As soon as possible, in the coming years, all current standards must be abolished."

Lets look a bit closer at some of the following statements offered as proof of conspiracy and the will of supposedly evil Doctors to poison their patients.

"The act of imprisoning patients causes an anxiety disorder. Although before incarceration a patient would not have an anxiety disorder he would succumb to one in a hospital."

No, just no. This is obviously wrong on so many levels. Patients are no prisoners or convicts as you imply.
you just can't help but troll can you..


English, although not most used, is most abundant around the world. There are often many English courses available in schools with open seats.
Google first comes up with, "Typical Woman Syndrome," "Tivoli Workload Schedule," and the "The Wildlife Society." TWS is not a common acronym. The 1st is very sexist and of no meaning while the 2nd and 3rd too simply have no meaning. It is important to speak in a manner which is of understanding to the receiving party. For example very common acronyms and proper English.


Forgive me I have no idea why you are talking about this, is it relevant somehow?



"I understand the fact that formal permanent diagnoses is very stupid."

In some cases it is appropriate. ie Diabetes



"These days, support for patients includes: arts and crafts"

Nope you are thinking of the 1970's. Recovery focus does not mean arts & crafts.


"The parents brought in a psychiatrist who declared the patient was having a psychotic episode. He was court ordered to take anti psychotics for a year. He is now still very ridden with physical health problems and is living in a homeless shelter. Is his treatment correct or should he be given better options?
You decide."

How does this help your resolution. If anything you are pointing out why we need MORE treatment not less.



"I know a child who was abused by his upper middle class parents his entire life. He was not permitted to learn to write nor make friends. The abuse was so bad his health failed and he could not survive on his own. His parents forced him to see a psychiatrist and take medicine. In a hospital in Phoenix, Arizona, I was witness to his major withdrawals from an incorrectly prescribed muscle relaxant. Death was a likely possibility to the patient."

Cool story bro. But seriously, suggesting we should abolish treatment for mental health because you knew a kid once for whom what you know of didn't go well..


"Mentally ill patients should not be left to suffer unavoidable circumstances and be given the opportunity, very often with pressure from abusers, to ingest poison."

Vulnerable people need more support. We know and do this already. This is not what you started out suggesting as your resolution. In fact quite the opposite.


"If a wife does not understand why her husband cheats on her, parents abuse their child, students bully their classmate, should the unable victim be prescribed, like a drug addict, medications or should he be guided on what action to take and given assistance?"


What has cheating wives got to do with anything ? More loaded arguments.




"At this point through the fog and chemicals in his mind the patient exclaimed his parents were trying to murder him."


He sounds paranoid to me. Definitely in need of medication and support. But hey maybe they were trying to murder him? If you think that's the more likely answer.



He was court ordered to take anti psychotics for a year. He is now still very ridden with physical health problems and is living in a homeless shelter. Is his treatment correct or should he be given better options?
You decide.


OK, I think you haven't given anywhere near the full story of that case and you have dramatised it to try and push your own agenda. I think all you care about is your agenda, not the well being of people suffering mental illnesses at all.

I work with severely delusional people , they all have a way more realistic view of mental health services than the one you have put forwards.
Please consider what you say to people as you can do great harm with your right wing ideation/ideology.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Kreakin 3 years ago
Kreakin
My opponent set the word limit, please ignore this part as I will be staying to the agreed word count.
This is to keep the "debate" in the relevant area.
Posted by JamesDavisI 3 years ago
JamesDavisI
This is my first ever debate. My 2nd statement was a tad too long and I will post the remainder here. You must forgive me.

Upon criminal activity there will be punishments. Then the underserved will be granted benefits. They will also be directed to previously existing available benefits and resources. In addition, benefits and resources will likely include different educational venues and even, our current activity, which is beneficial to those in need to be heard, debate projects. According to the 2014 Annual Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation news letter, the United States government values each citizen at several million dollars. This gives a limit to the amount of aid one receives. It is proven by unfailing statistics that aid projects such as food stamps, and Housing and Urban Development"s section 8 housing vouchers are known to benefit not only the recipient, but the economy, and therefore everyone in it, by boosting the productivity and therefore effect of the recipient.
I have and previously provided, directly to you all logical reason and rational sense you need to understand the topic and direction of conversation. For myself this topic is not emotive. I feel only the need to change things such as the structure of this medical field and the governing body to help those in need, those who suffer bad circumstance because they are just like any hard worker, or intellectual susceptible to the circumstance. I feel very much confidence in my response and highly urge you to agree with, if not superfluously advocate, the entirety of the statement.
Posted by JamesDavisI 3 years ago
JamesDavisI
Kreakin, hush-hush. There is no need to become anxious. I assure you I will deliver a statement.

Whiteflame, QandA, I have outline a response and will answer the first two comments in it. Of course I do believe it. I do not at all intend to be inflammatory. Your answer of a proposed resolution will exist in the second to last paragraph.

I very much hope you all will enjoy some enlightenment we can together rejoice in.
Posted by whiteflame 3 years ago
whiteflame
My guess is he just posted this debate to be inflammatory. If he actually believes it, he'll defend it, not that I can think of any strong justifications for putting a blanket ban on all mental healthcare and giving people "resources" instead.
Posted by Kreakin 3 years ago
Kreakin
James Marshall Davis please stand up.
Posted by Kreakin 3 years ago
Kreakin
Do not forfeit please. You asked to debate this...
Posted by QandA 3 years ago
QandA
Are you saying that all mental healthcare today as we know it should be abolished?
Posted by whiteflame 3 years ago
whiteflame
So are you advocating for the complete abolition of mental health care? As in, no more drugs, no more psychiatrists or psychologists, no more counselors, etc.? And what are you planning on replacing them with specifically? I'm guessing you're not just going to hand over gobs of money to anyone who professes to have a psychiatric disorder.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 3 years ago
whiteflame
JamesDavisIKreakinTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's argument was simply incoherent in most places. I never felt that he fulfilled his burden of proof, and his points became more convoluted and anecdotal the longer the debate went on. I could see viable arguments in there, but they were never supported, and often lacked in reasonable warrants.